THIS TAPE HAS BEEN RECORDED ON AUGUST 29th 1978 IN THE ENGINE HOUSE AT BANCROFT. THE INFORMANT IS JIM POLLARD, WEAVING MANAGER AND THE INTERVIEWER IS STANLEY GRAHAM.
So this week we're going to , we'll just retrace our steps a bit, we’ll go back a bit, and go back to when you were, you’d come here, you’d started knotting and you'd gone on to drawing and this is fetching us up to what, what would it be when you were drawing? About 1936 would it be?
R- Nineteen thirty six,
Aye, that's It. So 1936 you are here at Bancroft with 1155 looms in.
R - Eleven fifty two.
Eleven fifty two, I'm sorry Jim.
R- Straight, straight up 1152.
Aye, fifty two. And were most of the cloth .. Now, before we, I’m starting wrong again, Am I right in thinking that the biggest part of what they’d be weaving here then would he pure cotton, it’d be cotton?
(50)
R – It’d be cotton, It were all cotton in them days Stanley here. Spun only came, what we call spun, only came after the war here.
When you say spun, what do you mean?
R- Artificial, man made fibre.
Ah. And you call that spun like do you?
R- Spun yarn, yes.
Aye, that’s it, yes.
R - But it, properly it's artificial yarn. Man Made.
And where were most of the cloth going that were woven at Bancroft then? Do you know?
R – Well, biggest part were going to… we did a lot of two and two twills, which were for the Australian trade. And .. I didn’t bother much with cloth and that side Stanley in them days but I know all the two and two twill went to Australia. T’other .. a lot of our main [demand] were for such as Winceyette, two and two twill were used in this country for nightdresses, but like we've said before, that trade's gone now.
Aye, with flame proofing.
R- With flame proofing you see.
How many sorts would they have in the shed then, any idea?
R- Well we'll just start off. They’d 36 inch looms, 38 inch looms, 41 inch looms, 42 inch looms, 44 inch looms, 46 inch looms, 55 inch looms and 60 inch looms. What they used to call 60 inch was a loom that was an inch short of being what they called a sheeting loom. If they’d had another inch on that loom they’d have had to pay them sheeting prices.
(100)
And how much more was that?
R- Probably happen a penny or twopence on the wage difference which added up in them days.
Aye. When you say a penny or twopence on the wage, what do you mean? You don't mean a penny at the end of the week, you know …
R- A penny or twopence on a piece, if they'd two pieces off they might have fourpence difference or something like that.
Ah, is that all?
R- Yes, but you think, in those days fourpence, you could have a packet of Woodbines for that. Which for a fellow weaver, that were…
Yes, you are right. Now then, the management here then, who was the management, what were the staff in the office?
R- Staff in the office then…
This in 1936.
R- Which consisted of a preparation manager, a weaving manager…
Who was the preparation manager?
R - Stanley King.
King? Aye,
R- What we call a weaving manager which were Vernon Nutter. Then clerical staff was .... There was Tom Broughton he were the junior clerk, a fellow called Walker, I just forget what his first name were. Anyway it weren't Robert, his brother Robert were one of the drawers up here,
(5 Min)
(150)
and this Walker were in charge of wages. You’d also got a Manchester office which W. E. Nutter himself, who were managing director of this firm then ...
That’s Wilfred?
R- Wilfred, he were in it at Manchester along with a fellow called, what did they call Sidney's sister- that died? Mrs ...
I can’t remember. It doesn't matter, it doesn't matter, it'll come.
R- Well, her husband were the Manchester man but he did the biggest part of his business in the office, at Manchester. Well, that were your staff here then.
Yes. Now when you say the Manchester man, just tell me what a Manchester man was, because a Manchester man…
R - The Manchester man used to stand on the Cotton Exchange in Manchester. Now, he’d meet all the spinners there and he’d book his yarn from a central position there. They used to have a number which were their stand. Now then, from there he’d also go round visiting customers round Manchester and that area. And that’s all your Manchester man ... well that’s what he did, he was the main man.
(200)
So he used to get the order for the cloth and he used to buy the yarn.
R- He used to buy the yarn, yes.
How did he know how much yarn to buy? And what sort?
R- Well, if he got any orders he’d know what cotton they wanted, what weft they wanted, what type of weft, whether it were good weft, medium, or a low grade. Which whether it's a low grade cloth or high grade cloth such an that. And .. then he gets his prices.
So a good Manchester man’d have a fair idea about both weaving and cloth construction.
R- Cloth construction were his main…
Aye. Well that's what I mean really, he had to have a good idea ...
R- And in the old days the Manchester man were well up with cotton deliveries from abroad.
And most of the Manchester men would live in Barlick wouldn't they? You know, each mill’d have its own Manchester ...
R- He had it .. he called here every morning, they were mostly either in Earby or Barnoldswick which only two mile difference. But they used to visit t’mill every morning, before they went out to Manchester.
Aye, then they'd go on he train.
R- And then they went on the train.
And you were saying that the Manchester man would be a good man on the cotton market itself, you know, raw cotton coming in.
R- Cotton market itself, he’d know what cotton crops were like and such an that, whether they'd had a good year or whether it were a bad year for cotton.
When to buy like.
R- When to buy.
(250)
'Cause obviously in them days, if they knew they had a fair market for cloth that were taking say 40’s weft, and they had an idea it were a bad crop that year…
R- Bad crop yes.
Well they'd, they'd buy some in wouldn't they?
R - Yes. You see, what it amounts to Stanley, and on top of that, all your cotton prices, your raw cotton prices is based on American cost. It always has been, why I just can't tell you Stanley but that’s what [happened] because it were all American cotton at one time.
Yes.
R- Now, Whether it might have been, you know, carried on as such from the beginning, but it’s all based on the American market. But same as now, American cotton, there is very little used really but it used to be, t’biggest part used to be American.
And most of that’d be good cotton and all wouldn't it?
R- It were good cotton, yes, but now your mixings are Peruvian, Brazilian, Indian, in one mixing for one count of yarn.
How did the cloth go out of Barlick, then in 1936?
R - It used to go out by rail. They used to be loading into the wagons, do you know, closed wagons. It used to leave here, well just before I came, on a horse and cart which used to take it down to the station and they used to load there, into these containers and it were done by rail from here to Manchester.
(10 Min)
And did it go over to road transport before the war or …
R- War, yes, about 1934 .. just before I came here in late 1934. They'd got two wagons, bought two motor wagons.
(300
Nutters themselves? Aye, of course, that's what the garage were for, that was the idea wasn't it.
R- That’s right.
Well, they had a wagon up to not long since didn’t they? Jim Nutter drove it.
R- Jim Nutter drove it for years.
Yes. Aye, that's it.
R- And I’ve seen them two wagon back here before one o’clock, make two journeys a day into Manchester. They used to come back absolutely stacked with beams.
Yes. How many?
R- We were talking on different sorts, weren’t we?
Yes.
R- Now, when you take it there, look at the scope you had there, from 36 inch loom up to a 60 inch loom. We used to do .. and in the old days you used to, we even did a kind of a Terry Towelling on some dobby looms which we had.
That's a loop cloth.
R- Yes, like a honeycomb with a red stripe down. We used to weave them on ten shafts. We used to do some fancy curtaining, which were a printed warp, but you'd to find t'pattern on that warp you know.
And so the warp were printed before you put the weft In?
R- Yes.
Aye, I didn't know that.
R- Yes. It were a cheap curtaining in them days you know?
Aye that's it.
R- And then we did the usual do, two and two twills, two and one Jeannettes, sateens, herringbones, Florentines. They’d quite a variety, but same as now, we've got down to what we really call more or less a plain cloth, just two and twos.
So, in theory, if everything were going right, trade were good and all t’looms were full, it’d be possible for them to turn out here sommat like 80,000 yards of cloth a week in them days?
(350)
R- I went into that. Now you reckon 1152…
Now, all I was thinking was 1000 loom with one piece apiece.
R- And all them looms that we are talking about in them days Stanley, them looms weren’t doing 180 picks a minute, they were doing up to 240.
How many pieces could they get off a loom in a week?
R- Well, that just depends, well, we'll average it.
Aye…
R - Well if you average that, they'd do two, two a week.
Oh, it’s going to be a lot more then.
R- Because on some cloths you see, you take a Florentines, which is thick weft, coarse reed, not very high pick .. they could do up to two and a half pieces a week off them, of hundred yards you see.
So you're getting on to 200,000 yards a week. Aye.
R - Oh yes,
Like, if there are 1000 looms, two pieces each, that's 200 yard off each loom, that’s 200,000 yards a week. My God, it's some cloth isn’t it when you think. Out of one mill.
R - It is that. Out of one mill. You see they weren’t like we are now, tens. There were fours and fives.
That's it, yes. You mean each weaver had four or five looms.
R - Each weaver, and I should say your production off them were going up for round about 94 or 95% off them looms weekly although they were Lancashire looms.
That’s it, they were into it all the time.
R- They were into it all the time. Because the overlooker’s wage depended on the weaver.
That’s it, yes.
R- So there were no playing about, they'd just to go to the toilet. They'd, happen have about two puffs [cigarette] in the toilet and back out or the overlooker were looking for them because it were his wage that were at stake.
It were his wage that were going, aye. Tell me sommat .. while we are just thinking about the number of looms and this that and the other. When there were … say for a 1000 loom shop, working on the same sort of stuff
(15 Min)
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that we were working on then .. .and let's just suppose that they were running on rewound weft you know, that they’d gone on to rewound weft. How many pirns would you need for a mill with 1000 looms in it?
R- A thousand looms?
Yes.
R- Well, we’ll take say on an average count, say a 30’s weft. Now then, in them days, with a pirn as we are using now, they’d run roughly about eight minutes. So you take it you’ve ... In them days what we are talking about Stanley, you started at seven o'clock in the morning, you'd a breakfast at half past eight while nine, so you'd an hour and a half then hadn’t you? And then you worked from nine o'clock till half past twelve so you had a five hour stint then hadn’t you from seven o’clock?
Yes.
R - Is that correct, am I right? Three and a half, one and a half, that’s five, yes. And then you worked from half past one till half past five, so you worked a nine hour day didn't you?
So each loom on that would need… They’d need roughly 70 pirns a day for, for one loom. It’s eight an hour at eight minutes.
R- Seven - Nine . It’s short of nine isn’t it? It's short of nine in the hour?
Well, sommat like that, aye.
R- Yes. So nine .. say, we'll call it nine in the hour Stanley.
Well that’s nine nines are 81 in a day.
R- That's it .. aye, 81.
So that’s 80. So that means that, how many have you got to allow, how many would you allow over the top of that for what we are going to have stood idle and stood in …
R- No, you’ve got to have that replaced.
Yes. Each day.
R- Each day.
So you’re going to need more than double, you are going to need double to go…
R- You want at least two and a quarter times that.
Aye at least, yes. So that's going to be, say, we've said 80, that’s 80000. So you’re going to need at least 200,000 pirns.
(450)
R- Two hundred thousand pirns for 1152 looms, on a four and five loom system. But you see, I’m just going back to when they knocked Saturday mornings of, but in 1936 you worked Saturday Morning while half past ten. So you’d three and a half hours there you see?
Yes aye.
R- So you can say you have another three and a half hour on top of that Stanley can't you.
Aye, yes.
R- To carry on with you'd need roughly round about 240,000 pirns.
It's going some isn't it? Now then, we’ll just go forward a little bit. You were drawing in right up to the war.
R- Right up to the .. well .. No I'd had various jobs Stanley. Why I don't know, whether they had sommat in mind, Nutters, I don't know. I did a period like I’ve said, I did twisting then I'd to learn drawing. From drawing I had to go into the tape room.
Who were taping here then?
There were Joe Nutter, Rene Shepherd and Joe Cowley.
So we had three tapes?
R- You’d three tapes running then and bear in mind those tapes worked from seven in the morning till nine o'clock every night except for Wednesday night. And they also worked seven o’clock till half past ten on Saturday morning.
So you worked on the donkey engine for .. three and a half hours every night... half past five to nine.
R- You worked on the donkey engine. Yes, from half past five to nine o'clock the donkey were knocked on you see, switched over.
[The tapes had to run continuously throughout the day as there was tremendous wastage of yarn if they stopped in mid warp so the tape room had a small steam engine, the donkey engine, which was started and ran the tape room shaft through a fast and loose pulley system. In other words, the shafting could be disconnected from the main engine drive and run from the auxiliary engine.]
Aye.
R- So actually, the preparation staff, as long as we were here, nearly up to the war, always worked over till nine o’clock except for one night a week which were Wednesday..
Course you’d need … They'd need to do it really because you always used to reckon one tape for 300 looms didn’t you?
R- Well, yes, that’s what they reckoned in the old days. They tried to cut it down to less you see, but it doesn't work out that way Stanley, it just depends on the sorts you run doesn’t it.
Yes.
(500)
R- I mean to say, the thicker your twist is and the slower drying it is, so you can’t run as fast, on your tape. Anyway, as we were talking about these hours that we did Stanley, you bear in mind some weeks I’ve seen as many as 500 coming out in a week.
Warps.
R- Five hundred warps a week they did. Especially when you've such as full times you know.
Yes, the stuff they were getting through.
R- Which is downing maybe every fortnight.
Yes, when you say downing, a warp will go a fortnight.
R- That’s right, a warp will last a fortnight weaving in the shed. But they laugh at you when you tell ‘em that. But it's so easy, they get mixed up with hours Stanley. What you're doing now and what you did in them days. You can reckon a week in them days as 48 ½ hours can't you.
Oh more. I mean when you're talking about the tapes working three and a
half hours extra, that’s 16 hours on top of that. I mean you're getting into the 70 hour street. But, so the boiler man would have been here because they'd have to keep the boiler on. [Remember that as well as steam for the donkey they needed steam for boiling size and heating the cylinders.]
R- Yes.
And how about the housewife’s shift here, did they ever run one before the war? [This was an evening shift for part timers.]
R- No. No, that were after the war.
No, that were after weren't it. Well we'll leave that till after. So you were drawing then you went in taping as well.
R- I went in taping and all. And from taping I went and did two month in the weaving shed.
Actually weaving?
R – Aye, under somebody. Now, it didn't make sense to me all that. I thought I were being mugged round the place, you know?
Well, it's fairly obvious what were happening isn’t it? Really?
R- And then gradually I wandered my way back up to the drawing buffet.
How about cloth looking, didn't you go…?
R- Well I didn't go into cloth looking after that.
Now that's what we are coming up to then. Towards the war.
R- Yes.
What were your feelings when t’war was declared, can you remember?
R- Well, feelings Stanley, when they announced you were at war you didn’t think owt really about it at first, till it hit you. And then you suddenly realised you were .. what can I say, you might not be here so much longer.
(550)
In danger.
R- So a bit of silliness goes out of you. You're beginning to feel like a man in them days aren’t you? Growing up, faster than what you thought of doing.
You weren't married then, were you, you were courting.
R- Yes, I were married.
Oh aye, married. Now, when were you married? Now then, what day were you married?
R – Stanley, my memory for getting married, anniversary, owt like that is hopeless. It were in May sometime.
Oh dear! Aye well …
R- What day I don’t know.
That’ll be all right, we'll have to consult with Ivy, she’ll remember. I've never heard of a woman yet that couldn't remember her marriage dates
R- Ivy’ll know. I can't…
Anyway, you are married, war's declared, and a bit of the silliness has gone out of you, you're ...
R- That’s right. I were a bit stunned really you know.
Tell me, before war was actually declared, did you take notice of what were in the papers? You know, I mean did you realise that there was a silly bugger called Hitler in Europe?
R- Oh yes, you realise Stanley and you say “Bloody time somebody stopped this silly bugger you know, who is going to grab everything" And yet you wondered who the hell was going to stop him and then we found out it were us. So we thought “Hell fire, we are in a bit of a hole now.” So everybody’s waiting of papers coming through the door, being called up. And then it starts, the expeditionary force goes, bloody hell, they’re not there so long, he’s ploughed through them. So it's getting dangerous and then your own papers come.
When did yours come?
R- Oh it was just before Christmas in l940. And I knew there were sommat wrong, because Ivy brought me dinner up. I said "'what the hell's up Ivy? Coming up with me dinner.” She’d also brought me papers up and all, I were Called Up. There were tears you know. Anyway, that were it.
(600)
What were you called up into?
R- Into the artillery, stationed at Carlisle, Hadrian’s Camp. I were there for a period. Then I were moved into heavy artillery. Then I did a move from there down to Oswestry.
(25 Min)
You were doing your artillery training there were you.
R- At Oswestry yes.
What were you training on?
R- Four point fives, Ack-Ack guns. [Ack-Ack was the slang name for Anti-Aircraft guns.] And then after I come out of this training us first station were up at Glasgow, a place called Shettleston. They’d never had any bombs up there, like guns were already there. Well, everybody were surprised and the damn sirens went first neet. Never been known before up there. So we runs to the guns, Hell fire, they wouldn't go, rusted up. What a performance it were. Anyway they fired the neet after, but this is the way it were during the war, Stanley.
Why you didn't take your own guns up there with you? Were there guns waiting there when you went there?
R- No, we had guns there, three point five.
Aye. Who’d had them before?
R - Some ? But they’d only mucked about training on them you know. And then we were doing the damn guards up there with pick axe shafts, no rifles, still had us gas masks in a cardboard box, this were in 1940. And then I were moved from there and we moved to Middlesbrough, near Dorman Longs on the mouth of, is it Tees?
Yes.
R- We were right on the mouth of the Tees there, and .. these here boats used to come up for depth charges to take out, you know to destroy 'em and that. [Anti submarine patrols. ]
Near South Shields was it?
R - Yes up, up that way. And we were like, guarding such as Dorman Long’s.
With a pick axe shaft?
R- Yes, stood on guard with a pick axe shaft, no rifle, we hadn't got a rifle then.
Oh!
R- But we had four point fives up there on the site. And eh, hell! And they were just nuisance raiders up there, you know. Just these coming over and creating. We were up for a month solid. Anyway, I were on leave. And instead of dropping bombs on Dorman Long, they dropped
(650)
them on to the council chambers in Redcar, killed I don't know how many councillors. Like it were funny like, you know, and it weren't. So I got me papers, when we moved we started to go up, back up to Scotland to a site up there. And oh it were bloody terrible there, we were out in the fields miles from anywhere.
Where were that?
R- Oh I don’t know Stanley where it was. I weren’t interested there, all I could do were bloody walk fields. Whatever we were guarding there I didn't know. And then we were moved from there to, near a place called Stevenson in Scotland, and we were guarding Ardeer ammunition works there.
Yes. That's it, aye. explosive works aye.
R- And I'd a good do up there, I enjoyed meself.
Yes. What year is this about when you were at Stevenson. Up at Ardeer.
R- Forty one.
Nineteen forty one. And now?
R- And then I went
Now wait a minute, wait a minute, while you were at Stevenson now, you got time for a bit of cricket while you were up there didn’t you?
R- Aye, I played with Ayr.
That's it.
R- I used to get Friday, they allowed me Friday. They used to come and pick me up in a car or a taxi, Friday night. And then they used to bring me back at Sunday night.
Just tell me about when you played there.
R – What, at Ayr, first time.
Go on, you tell me.
R – Well, it were a bit interesting were this. I’m walking up to the ground, and …
I'm sorry, I’m going to interrupt you because there's something we’ve missed. How did they know you were a cricketer? How did the word get round?
R- As we got to Stevenson, you see Stanley, you had officers that were interested in cricket and football. Now then, it were quite a good field what we were in, level bottom and guns were on the hill just above. So they made a cricket pitch there. Now then, these officers had their own, picked their own teams and they used to play one another, they used to have a side bet you see did the officers. And while we were playing cricket on the bottoms, folk come walking past, it were on a main road. And they started watching and so forth and next thing I know somebody came and said
(700)
(30 Min)
“Would you like a game at Stevenson?" So I said aye, I don’t mind. Which were kind of village do but they'd tennis courts, la real sports centre it were. And .. I says Aye, I don't mind if I do. So the following Saturday I played, and I’d a good do. So they were interested and I played for them a few weeks . And I got well looked after. I got a bit of money and a meal or two, which everybody enjoyed in the forces.
And somehow or other they must have got to know at Ayr which isn’t far off
Stevenson actually. They come and approach me and I said “Well I don’t know, I can’t say I can get permission to play, but I'd like to play" so they went and saw the Captain and .. he said it were all right. But I had to play for the Battalion, I've to play for the Battalion, I couldn't play for them so they granted me this permission, so they sent for me at Friday and brought me back at Sunday. And the first match I played, it were funny. As I'm going up to the ground with these people that I stayed with .. there were this sign, Bill Pollard, of Lancashire County Cricket Club. Well what they were thinking about were Dick Pollard.
Dick aye, Th’old Chain Horse. [Dick Pollard was a famous player at Lancashire at the time. His nickname was ‘Th’Old Chain Horse’ because he was famous for bowling long stints.]
R- Yes, I had a good do with Ayr, and I enjoyed it. And while I were on leave I were picked to play with Ayr County, you know they play in different counties up in Scotland.
Just … while we are talking about that, just go forward one little bit there and … after the war, I think it was after the war wasn't it? Ayr offered you a job up there didn’t they?
R – Well, after the war Stanley, I could have gone and Pro’d at Ayr, and I could have also gone to Paisley, which is Glasgow and Pro’d there. [Pro’d means played as a professional.] I could have had a three or two year contract and been found a winter job in Paton and Baldwins.
That's it, there’s plenty of textiles at Paisley.
R- Yes, there you see. And … but the wife wouldn't move you see. So in a way, I held that over this firm's head because occasionally what they did, they put me off and made me sign on twice. [Short time.] The place was stopped admittedly but I said if I were going to be put on unemployed any more I were finishing and taking this contract you see? So from that date to this I’ve never signed on.
Right, well let’s go back to Stevenson. You are on the four point fives there, you are playing cricket but there is still a war going on in Europe and in other places. Go on from there. [4.5 and 3.5 are the names given to the type of gun they were using. It refers to the diameter of the shell they fired. The navy used the size of the bore as the designation but the army usually used the weight of the shell up to 25 pounders. Beyond that they went on to bore size.]
(750)
R- Yes. Go on from there? Well Stevenson, after we moved from Stevenson we finished up at a place called Billingham. And what we were guarding there was the I.C.I. works, but there were never no raiders round there. We thought it were a bit strange. All we were doing were polishing the guns. And the site that we’d moved from on Tees bank had been wiped out. Well, they started there as we moved out, they'd put women on the predictor site you know? They were giving you instructions from the predictor which you put into the gun and it's supposed to [aim the gun perfectly] But the human element creeps in and there were always mistakes you see. Well you’d have shot every plane down there were. And that site were wiped out.
How do you mean, wiped out?
R- Well they dropped bombs on it at the finish. But we thought it strange that they should bring us off a gun site like that and put such as ATS on and some that hadn’t been in long and were rookies. You know, to guard a place like that. For us to go to Billingham, say we were going to guard I.C.I. and all that we ever did were polish the guns. But it turned out that they were preparing us to go abroad. So we got orders to move out of Billingham, and go to Leeds. And we were billeted in houses in Leeds and we were on us way, you know, abroad from there. We were in houses situated outside Headingley cricket field, all round that area. And it weren't so bad, wife came up every week. And we were there happen three week to a month, I’m not certain which, and then we were paraded, I didn't know a thing, we paraded ... and marched from Headingley right down to the station .. And I’ll never forget that march, kitted up, kit bag, and plodding along down that long road to the station from there, and folk that were lined up “Poor lads, the poor lads”
They knew where you were going.
R - They knew where we were going, they'd seen it happen before.
Did you know where you were going then?
R- No, we hadn’t a clue where we were going Stanley.
(800)
R- So we were put into these railway carriages and it were dark. All the blinds down, huddled in the carriages we were. Eh, I thought - I've been on this train a bloody long while, you know, I’ll see where it’s going. Funny enough I should open the window and I’m passing Skipton station. I thought, this is a bloody funny road to Derby, this way, Skipton.
Oh, you thought you were going to Derby then?
R- Oh, we'd heard we were going to Derby, to Donnington Park and then getting some leave. And I say “This is a funny way to Derby” And then I got a voice from the back, “Pull that blind down!” So the blind went down and next thing we gets off to sleep and wakened up on the dock side in Scotland, up at Gourock.
You went from Leeds down to Skipton and finished up in Scotland?
R- In Scotland, at Gourock. When they marched us there I've never seen as big a bloody ship in my life. Oh dear Stanley I felt I’d never make it up that gang plank. So we set off up the gang plank and gets to the top. Well, a bloody smart b1oke up there was shouting palliasse or hammock! I thought well, I’ve heard one or two mention they’ll have a hammock so I’ll try one. It must be good sleeping. Anyway, they put us in us decks. There were 360 on one deck and there were just three
toilets. And all they were, they were just like tables laid across with forms down the side. So anybody that got a palliasse either put it under the table or put it on t’top of the table. And there were these hooks up and down where you fasten your hammocks. Well it were laughable. It were really funny to see us fastening an hammock up. We finished up like letter S’s, like a saxophone, at morning. So the faster I could get rid of me hammock the better I reckoned. I got a mattress, I were better. Well, after I’d been out a there a bit Stanley, you'd never seen a deck like that in your life.
What were the name of the boat?
R- Castle, some Castle. And, oh but them toilets, they were swimming over, it were on what we called the mess dock, and the smell, Ph'shoo, it were wicked. So we got to a stage, at night when we pigged down, everybody started baaing like sheep. So there were one smart little officer, he hadn’t been with us long, “Anybody that makes that noise again will be put on some kind of duty.” Well t’usual cry, he got a mouth full. Well it were just chaotic. Anyway, we were in this convoy, there were forty some boats in this convoy. We hadn’t a clue where we were going. Anyway we gets to Gibraltar. An aircraft carrier met us there and one or two of the others. Still kept
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plodding on. And then it took us .. oh, we went up and we went to ... what were it? West Coast of Africa. We pulled in at a place there and we stopped three days, watered up, and then we set off again, and we finished at Durban so we’d four days there and it were beautiful. No we’d five days at Durban, beautiful.
Go ashore?
R- Yes. And folk that were waiting to take you to their houses. Marvellous. And if you hadn’t like a day's leave or owt you went for a march down the roads in Durban. Folk, they were coming with them string bags of oranges, couldn’t do enough for you there, Stanley, South Africa. And it were really laughable, if you had a day off on your own and you wanted to go on your own, you didn’t want to go, you'd have to go there with a family. You know? You see these here running up and down, these, like Zulus with these carriages and touring on the road and they'd have them Zulu feathers floating away. And beaches, just white, and bands playing. Oh it were lovely. But there were these here distinctions you know, this sign, this and the other.
What do you mean?
R- With Coloured .. you know.
Aye. Be a bit different than Barlick!
R - Barlick yes. And funny enough there were some Americans there and you know what American suiting material were then, you thought everybody were officers. Well, you were throwing salutes up and they were only privates when it came out. So we left there and we’re still in a convoy of say, 30, then we wakened up one morning we were on us own. Well, that did it, “I hope this bloody boat can move!” everybody were saying. And we finished up, the bloody engine shut up and we stopped. And we thought “We are in a hell of a hole now.” And I don’t know what they were waiting on, Stanley but then we moved out of there and we finished up at Mombassa in East Africa. But really when it came out, we were on for the Madagascar job, us. And by the time we got there it’d been settled, so we were diverted to Mombassa and what we were on then was Ack-Ack. We were training what they called Askaris you know, darkies, they had to go from there to Burma.
So you were stationed in Mombassa?
R- So we were stationed in Mombassa.
How long for?
R- Oh we were in there seven or eight months.
And when were that?
R - There were gun sites there
Yes, 1940?
R- That’d be late 1941 then. And ... they wore a bloody awful crowd the East Africans, far different to the South Africans. And .. we didn't enjoy it a bit there you know. And what we were doing we were just training these Askaris mainly, such as tribes, you know, from Uganda. And it were funny how they were picked out, there were no such thing as volunteering or that, they used to sit round in a square you know, one tribe, they sit round with the chief and he just says you, you, and you. You're in the Army now. And this is where we got them.
Did you actually see that happening?
R – I’ve seen that happen, yes. And there used to be, what did they call them then? That were there when it were happening you know?
District Commissioner?
R- District Commissioner. Only thing I enjoyed about there Stanley were when we were on leave. We went to Nairobi and up to a small place called Nyeri and it were very interesting really. Except for Nairobi, we stopped in a place, I've never seen a place as bug ridden in my life. Bugs everywhere. And I know we, we should have slept in t’bed, but hell, beds were full of bugs. So we sat up all night playing cards. But your holiday, you had a good do really, your holiday started and you had a full 14 days holiday. But it took you sometime three or four days to travel to where you were going, you know? Funny on the railways you know, in some places, you'd have damn big, like giraffes, strolling across lines you know? Eh .. ! And then .. after a period I were in charge of about 40 Askaris and had to take'em up the main land.
You were still a private were you?
R - No, I were a sergeant then.
Oh you were a sergeant? You never mentioned about this promotion that had struck! Go on, so you were a sergeant.
R - And I had to take these on to this Mombassa Island, about 40 mile into the islands itself... Mombassa, Nairobi, you know, into the undergrowth like. Because we’d had some ammunition dumps in there. And what we were doing there we’d to get it all ready for stacking up and shipping out to be took on to Burma. They were getting mobilized to go to Burma from there after we trained all these, and we were going with 'em. And I finished
(45 min)
up I couldn't go because I got black water fever, while I was there.
Ah. That's pretty bad isn't it?
R Aye. I'll say! I just remember I had been pretty bad for a day or two and…
When you say you'd been pretty bad. In what way you know? What were it, diarrhoea or what?
R- Well, feeling sick and couldn’t be sick, and .. when you'd pass water it started .. and a real orangey colour. and you didn't have any pain, but you just kept this here, and you felt to have a big lump in your stomach you know. And it felt to be going bigger and bigger and then you found out that your vision weren't as good as it should be. I plodded on for two days but we couldn’t get in communication with these which were on Mombassa Island which were our headquarters. So what we had to do, we’d to wait of a truck coming across and bringing food supplies. That were the only way we had a communication with Mombassa Island.
So that were the only way you could go sick.
R- I could go sick you see. And I held on while the food wagon came up, and lucky enough the officer came on with it, you know. And I couldn’t get out of bed on that, morning. So they just put me on the back of this wagon and rushed me straight down to this, forty miles, nothing on the bottom of the wagon, just on a wagon doings, and rushed me down to the ferry which took me to Mombassa Island. And then there were pandemonium. I can just remember getting in hospital and they laid me .... on this here and there were a scurry, and two more came and looked at me, and then they disappeared and two more came and next thing I can just remember being wheeled up in this trolley. And next thing I could remember were being sat on the edge of the bed
and they put a big long tube down me throat and I’m not kidding … sick. And there were a lump of bile what they call bile, honestly it were amazing how it come up, size of it. And then after that I started with like an haemorrhage and me white corpuscles and me red corpuscles had started what … fighting with one another. And all that just come through me penis like black jelly.
Aye, that’s why they call it Black Water Fever?
R - Yes. Just like black jelly it were, and then they'd to start and pump blood into me. And all I can remember Stanley were, I can just remember saying “I can’t take no more. I can't take no more.”
It sounds bloody terrible. It does.
R- And then I didn’t know owt else, for six weeks.
When you say you didn’t know anything else for six weeks, were you like
delirious and…
R- I were out for six weeks.
That’s right.
R- I were in hospital from 10th of May while 13th of November. They wouldn't let me out.
That’s like the Duke of Wellington said Jim, it were a damn close run thing.
R- Yes. And while I were in there they brought two more in with Black Water Fever and they didn't survive. And .. there were a sister there, sister Osborne and she kept in contact with me until she died.
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Sister…?
R- Osborne
Osborne
R- A London person and she were a bit like .. Nurse Barlow in stature, big, and a marvellous person she were. She could just pick me out of bed like a doll.
Well of course your weight’d go down fairish and all wouldn't it?,
R- Well even when they sent me home, and I landed on Barlick station, and I was weighed when I went to the doctor the following day after I’d come home. I was five stone thirteen.
Now that were on the road to recovery.
R- That’s on t’road to recovery.
So what had you got down to?
R- I don't know Stanley, I couldn’t remember. But they used to weigh me every three days while I were in hospital Stanley and I were coming round, first thing I had when I were coming round was alkaline water. And I had a certain amount of this to sup daily without fail. And while I drunk this, you know how awkward it is when you’ve to use a bottle? And I couldn’t move right well. And every one of them bottles had to be weighed, water had to be weighed to see what I were passing.
(50 Min)
So, what went in and what come out. Yes.
R- What come out. And that went on for weeks, and then when I finished with that I were fortunate enough to get on Champagne. They give me a bottle, they let, they give me a bottle of champagne for the oxygen that were in it or sommat.
Aye?
R - Now after that were done I had four bottles of Guinness a day. I had one first thing at the morning, I had one at dinner time, and one at tea time and one last thing at night.
Well, I don’t make much of the disease Jim, but I think the bloody treatment was marvellous.
[In 1954 I was in a military hospital in Chester and we were given a bottle of Guinness every night to build us up.]
SCG/02 November 2002
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