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THIS TAPE HAS BEEN RECORDED ON JULY 17TH 1978 IN THE ENGINE HOUSE AT BANCROFT. THE INFORMANT IS JIM POLLARD, WEAVING MANAGER AND THE INTERVIEWER IS STANLEY GRAHAM.

You are eight years old, and you are still living in Red Lion Street. Now then, what school did you go to?

It's very early for going to school isn't it? Were there any particular reason for that do you think?

R - I don’t know Stanley. Unless it were to help a lot of women that put children out [To childminders]you see? It did save them money and that you’d expect didn't it?

Because there were so many who used to be out at six o’clock taking their children out to be looked after. Well, when you got to three and there was such as the Riley Street School to go to, you went.

R – Oh the school were .. how can I put it? School were school, no cheek, you did as you got told. I mean to say, the same thing happens today, if you didn't want to learn you’d not learn. You got them who didn't want to learn but there were no fooling about with it, It just didn’t sink in.

R- Well, you got punished with a cane, a small cane with a handle on the end. And when we got to Alder Hill School we used to be taken into the woodwork room, put over the bench and walloped. I can only remember being walloped twice, and that were more for breaking windows, school windows, which I had been told about before. With either footballs or a hard ball in the schoolyard, which you knew you hadn’t to use. You could use a soft ball, but you got a bit, you know, [Careless and] took a cork ball.

Aye a corky. [A corky was the slang name for a cheap cricket ball made out of composition.] How old were your parents when they went to school? Any idea?

R- I think me father were taught at what they call Christ Church School which is still going, it's on Laneshawe Bridge Road Colne.

R- Well, it kept you fairly well mannered did school in the old days Stanley. I know at one time we used to, before you met a teacher, we’d touch us little cap. And what can I say about teachers…well, they were there to teach and they did that job. But once you had gone out of line they soon put you back in line by being walloped, which did you no harm, and I thought it did you good.

Well, you've got a child at school now, what do you think, what would you say yourself about the difference between school then and school now? What’s the main difference?

R- Well… same as, I can’t talk about school now Stanley because I could have gone to Grammar School but I'd no interest in the Grammar School. My main interest was football and cricket. Well me daughter now, she’s not interested in school subjects. Well, I don’t think she is cheeky at school, I’ve had no reports about it but she just doesn’t give her mind to things. It’s there, the teachers admit it’s there but they can’t get it out of her.

R - She in interested in such as hairdressing and .. she is at that stage Stanley, can’t [make up her mind] but her main interest is hairdressing. But like a lot of them now, they hear of them that’s getting these jobs such as on sewing or other duties which is making them maybe £35 a week. And she can’t see why she should continue and go to Nelson and Colne College. And the position we’re in, we would get a grant of happen £42 a year for her. Now then, she thinks she would be better off going into industry and earning such money as £35 on a sewing machine. And all her school reports for the time, as you know, wife as she is, she has had a lot of time off school but she’s not numb. If she’d give her mind to it she could do it.

[This was a delicate subject because Jim’s wife had terminal cancer and his daughter had spent a lot of time off school doing the housework and looking after her mother.]

R- I weren't interested Stanley. My main interest was sport, it’s all I lived for were cricket and football.

How about work, you know, while you were at school. Did work ever cross your mind, what you were going to do when you left school? You know, did you have any thoughts about it while you were actually at school?

R-Well, funny enough, the only thing that I wanted to do when I came out of school were go into t‘mill.

R – I’ve gone in with somebody that's been working in a mill and mucked about with 'em you know? What they were doing and ... I don't know, I had a fascination for the mill.

Aye. So really, you had choice between the bakehouse and the mill when you left school.

R- Well, bakehouse, me dad knew for a start that didn't interest me one bit, Stanley. So he never expected me to go in the bakehouse with him.

R- Not many. Not many Stanley. Because the main thing round this area were mills, which is textiles, textile industry. That were the main employment for people in them days.

And … we’ll come on to that in a minute. While you were at school, can you ever remember the doctor coming round, you know, to examine you?

R - I can’t remember a doctor Stanley, but I remember the nurse coming. And going through your hair.

Aye. Nit nurse? [Nits are the common term for head lice which were very common].

R – No I can't remember it. Only other man I can remember coming to our school when I were there was a physical training Instructor from Skipton Grammar School, a fellow called Taylor.

R- To see how we were going on with physical education. The fellow there that we had, he were actually a rugby player, a fellow called Hindley, he used to play rugby with Skipton. And .. as far as physical education went, he hadn’t much idea if you know what I mean. We just had a vaulting horse and a spring board and so it were a matter of getting on the board and going over it. This Taylor kind of knocked us into shape a bit by doing more things on this vaulting horse and more exercises. Admittedly, we didn't quite like the idea. We used to play around more often than not you know.

You'd rather he laiking cricket than jumping over the vaulting horse. Aye, I can imagine it. And did you do any more study after you left school? You know, night school, anything like that?

R - When I left school what I did …even getting into mills in them days, it were hard Stanley. You couldn’t just walk into a mill and get a job. There were such things as tenting, where you'd go in at twelve or thirteen and, and go with weavers and you'd he a tenter, you’d happen get half a crown, such as that; and then it were difficult to get in, they were only on four and five loom in them days.

If you went in as a tenter, that’d be with somebody who were probably on five looms or a good weaver wouldn’t it?

Now then, over a period he’d been with you, he’ll get paid by the firm for tenting if you were showing any signs…

So it would nearly have to be a relation or a friend of the family that you were tenting for?

R – Yes, that’s right, somebody that worked there, somebody you knew, a relation or a good friend of the family.

How about going in before you were actually old enough to go to work, and learning a bit so that you were a better man when you went. I wonder if some of that went on?

R- Well, this is what I did when I went from school at four o’clock. I used to go into a mill and do a bit of bundling, cloth-look bundling and tying ‘em up. I hadn’t the strength you know? But they used to have a presser in them days and it used to come down and then press them tighter and it were far easier to tie the strings up with that. And then I'd go up into the twisting room, preparation room and they’d have a regular reacher-in who put the ends on a hook which were pulled through the healds. Well, if he wanted a break it was just my job to have a sit down and I were only too keen to have a bit of a do at this. And yet, when I left school, I couldn’t get into the mill and I had to go in the bakehouse with me dad.

R - But when I finished in the bakehouse, which was around two or three o’clock, what did I do then? I used to go into the mill after that period to spend a bit more time in the mill.

R - I used to go to Sough Bridge, which were more of a man-made fibre place than cotton.

Aye that’s it. Jimmy Nelson’s were on it weren’t they? What do you call that stuff? Made out of wood shavings?

R- Lustrafil. I’d do it [The bakehouse] but I knew it weren’t going to do me any good, I weren't interested at t’bottom. I’d set me mind on sport, or going into the mill.

So you left school at fourteen, and half timing would be finishing then would it?

R- Half timing? There weren’t much of it then Stanley in 1930. We used to get in and you'd start off as a proper learner you know.

Yes. Would there be any half-timing going on at all that you know of for sure then?

So, of course, 1930, it’d be a bit dodgy wouldn’t it? Just coming into the bad times? Yes.

So you worked in the bakehouse with your dad? And then, in your spare time, you were into the mill whenever you could be?

R- I were into the mill. Like same as with that, I had a pal, one or two pals, in the mill. So I went in to them. And then I'd get knowing somebody else in t’mill and I’d go and do a bit for him and …

R – No, wait, but you see on that, what I did, I went on to the cricket field in summer and go on two afternoons, from half past two ‘til roughly round about half past four.

R – Nets. And there’d always be t’pro’ about. And that were a good thing for me, because it got me two afternoons in on the cricket field with the pro’ bowling.

Aye. What were the attitude to you going down? Were they like glad to see anybody that’d come down? That were showing a bit of promise, you know, showing signs?

R - Cricket players? Oh yes, they were dead keen at Earby on cricket Stanley. If you talked to anybody about cricket they always said “Oh, Earby? Oh, cricket mad.” I mean to say, even going back to The 1930’s.

R – And, such as that, it were…what? Same as if one player’d leave Earby and come Barlick to play. Gosh! It were like defeat. If Barlick’d play, they were in a different league bear in mind. Now if Barlick went and played Earby and this lad were with them. In a friendly even, oh it were hell on earth for the lad, he’d get booed as soon as he were coming out to bat. Oh aye. But you see, what went on a lot in them days with Earby, there were those lads that went to t'Grammar School. Now they couldn’t get out of the idea, they always thought that the Grammar School lads were better than what we could call the local lads were. You see you could, you’d start off in that team. Now as soon as it come, their Summer period, their break, irrespective if you’d done fairly well, you’d be out of that team and these Grammar School lads would take precedence over you. And their performances could go on for weeks doing nothing but they’d still be in. Now this is what got everybody, this bit of feeling you see

R – Yes. So me father had different ideas and he said “As soon as you can move, you move!”.

Aye, ‘cause you actually started off at Thornton didn’t you? Yes, that was because they didn't think you were big enough at Earby.

R - but you see, on these does Stanley, as I'm saying, when you were at school. There were even such as a woodwork room at Alder Hill ..quite a good school were Alder Hill. And there were a cookery room for the girls, even in them days, a beautiful cookhouse and that for them and the woodwork room were beautiful. Except when you went in to be laid over the bench and walloped! I can just remember one teacher, Thornton, Bobby Thornton, now I would say he was the worst teacher there were at that school.

R - He didn’t give two hoots whether the lads were learning or whether they weren’t and he always used to suffer anyone who moved out of his class into the next class. You were way behind if you see what I mean. He were all right, he were sending a lad down to the paper shop and getting his Sporting Pink for the horse racing. And he would sit with his Sporting Pink on his desk, sorting winners out. Well, everyone took a bit of advantage of this and started throwing inkpot blobs up and down. But you knew, after you’d moved out of his class, that were it, work started then.

R - You see, he looked after the garden, we used to have a bit of garden up at Alder Hill and all. And you used to have one afternoon gardening. I never knew what they did wit' vegetables that they grew, wherever they went but .. they used to grow a lot of vegetables and it were quite interesting with him. Now give him his due he were a good gardener, but as far as the three R’s were concerned, he were bloody hopeless.

R - And one thing about school Stanley, you didn’t walk out of school as though you were walking out of a cinema or owt like that, wandering about, you had to march out. And your teacher’d be stood there and if you didn’t march you used to get one wallop and it’d be either on your bottom or your leg. But it were fairly orderly

And there wore no such thing as what they talk about now, stealing that goes on at schools and that. It’s one thing you’d never… everyone used to have a peg for their cap and coat and they were still there, nothing missing.

Really then, you’d say as a whole that standards of behaviour have declined at schools then, since you were there.

[Jim had a daughter at what was then New Road School but is now called West Craven High School in 2002. This is the school he is referring to.]

Well I must tell you that that's the impression that I get but I often wonder how prejudiced we are.

R – Oh it’s pathetic, it is, you'd never see the lads throwing pennies, like we call those two pence pieces don’t we. A gang maybe thirty, throwing these up against the school wall and the winner takes the lot. That's unheard of. But yet they dare do it up there, I’ve seen ‘em doing it at dinner time. And the way they wander in and wander out, no such thing, you marched in orderly and you came out orderly.

Aye. And you didn’t come out till four o'clock either. It's a thing that strikes me many a time, Christ Almighty they’re coming out of theer at three o’clock.

R - And if you even want to go to the toilet your hand had to go up “Please Sir” or “Please Miss”.

R- I don’t know as far as I can see they just say “Reight, I'm going to the toilet", and that’s it.

R - No, it's so different Stanley, This is why, I don’t know whether we are the old fashioned type or what, but to me it seems more orderly and better mannered in those days weren’t they? Don’t you think so?

R - I’ll give you another instance Stanley. I’m not saying anything about people with beards Stanley or anything like that, but in the old days you’d never see a teacher going to school without a collar and tie. You’d never see anybody wearing a rolled up shirt [sleeves] or a damn pullover that looks as though it had been slept in. Everybody would be, the teachers would be tidy and smart.

R- They’d set an example. Same as with that, you even went to school in clogs but them clogs’d be polished.

R - I went to school in clogs, I could kick stones about better in the school yard with clogs than I could with shoes.

R-No. I believe in school Stanley, but the way they carry on, I think it’s disgusting. I can honestly say that when you went to the toilets at school they were clean. And they were kept clean. But now… And as for a broken window Stanley, you’d pay for that, and you had to pay. But not now.

Oh they'll set fire to a shop now, never mind break a window. And in those days ...and this is something that has a bit of bearing on it really, In those days there were things like parent teacher associations were there?

To your knowledge did your parents ever go to the school to discuss with the teachers how you were going on or anything like that?

R- Never Stanley. I can only remember me father, well, me father would never have gone to school even if they'd half killed me. But me mother went once.

R – Well, once I were walking out, and as far as I know I were going out well behaved, and a fellow called Seed which were the Headmaster, he used to carry a walking stick, and it were one of these curly uns, and he just caught me such a crack behind me leg it blistered my leg from above my knee right down to me muscle and me calf. And me pants, me short pants kept rubbing on this and then me mother says "What are you scratching?” you see.

“Oh - I said – I’ve just been walloped” “Ah well, they'll not wallop thee no more!” and up she went. But I've had to take bills home for me mother for a window being put in, happen three and sixpence dependant on't size of the window like. But I wonder what it'd happen new if one of them got a bill for breaking a window, I wonder what reaction there'd be.

There is one thing sure and certain, there’d be a reaction, wouldn't there? There would.

And when It got on for time for your leaving school … Oh now, wait a minute. You took the examination for Skipton Grammar,

[Ermysted’s was the real name for what was always known as Skipton Grammar School.]

You took it at Alder Hill? Aye. You didn't have to go to Ermysted’s to take it?

R - Oh aye. I knocked about with a lad, Duxbury, he passed, and you can take it, such as that Charlie Shutt, him that's managing director at Pickles', he passed, and he’s from Earby,

And if they went on to Ermysted’s what age would they he at school till there?

R - Sixteen, going on seventeen. It just depends what subject they were on with you know? Then they’d go from there to either College or University.

And when it got on for time for your leaving school, when you were coming on for fourteen, was there anything like the Careers Advice that there is now?

R - There were no choice. You’d either the mill, road sweeping or farming. There were no such thing as Rolls Royce, Armoride, no such like that.

R – There’d be nowt, there'd be nothing else Stanley, that's all there were all round this area. Because when t’trade got bad in't 1930’s there were a lot went out of this area and went down to Corby on engineering.

R - And some moved out, down into Derby or Sponden where Celanese were, from here.

So you left school and you looked for a job in the mill but you couldn't get one so you were working with your dad in t’bakehouse, doing a bit in the mills in the afternoons and you were laiking cricket.

R - Nineteen thirty two. Now then, I were on t’move then, from Earby to Colne you see? Cricket.

R – Well, me father was still living then. Now then, I did just a season at Earby and Colne come for me in November 1931 to play for them in 1932. So I went to Colne to play cricket. Now also there I were still helping me father but he gave me more time and I could finish at two o’clock so that’d give me time to get to Colne.

R-I caught the bus or sometimes I'd go on me pushbike. And I could get practising them three days a week every afternoon with a fellow called Archie Slater that were pro at Colne. And he used to teach a girl also at the same time which made a vast difference to me with me bowling, a girl, who was Dr Snowball’s daughter.

I don’t know whether she didn't finish up playing for England at cricket and she used to go. So there were three of us and we were taught wi’ Archie Slater and he were an old Derbyshire County player.

R- Yes, there was a lass playing cricket. She was quite a good cricketer. I had three days then, three afternoons really good practice.

R- Where, at Colne? Well, Colne provided me with two bats a season. As soon as you got down there you’d go to the locker and pick yourself two bats out, and they were yours for the season.

R- Oh! Me mothers pride and joy! Whites, flannels. When you went to play for Colne you thought you were getting somewhere. You used to get youngsters in the street in them days asking for your autograph! [Laughs] If you were playing against Constantine you were getting up amongst it you know. [Leary Constantine, a famous West Indian cricketer, later knighted.]

R- Nelson. And then we got to a pitch you see where I went down to Old Trafford [Lancashire County Ground.] for a trial.

R- Yes. Now then, I could have gone on the ground staff at Lancashire but with being so far out Stanley, I were what you could call snookered. My parents, they couldn’t afford to board me in Manchester. They’d have been money out of pocket, pounds and pounds, which we couldn’t afford. Because when you went down there you had to have all clean whites daily so that meant extra laundry bills on top of having to be boarded out.

R – Yes, because you, what you did when you went down there, you got to play with a team called, what they call Manchester, which is more or loss colts, and then you'd have to go out sometimes at morning or .. mainly afternoon and bowl at so and so's sons and such as this you see, which were all practice for you. So … everything were weighed up and .. me father just couldn't afford it, you know?

R - I were pretty good you know, for the age I were anyway. And then after that, me father died, the following year.

R - Nineteen thirty five. That changed me life altogether. And that meant that I had to find a job by hook or by crook.

R - Find a job, and I couldn't run the bakehouse. I could have done, but I didn’t want to do Stanley 'cause I didn’t like it. So we kept it on for coming up to the Summer months and then I had to go and see the president at Colne, and tell him I either wanted a job or I'd have to move, you know? Oh, and so he said he’d find me a job.

R - Yes. He were t’managing director at Standroyd Mill at Cottontree then. Which was eventually Courtaulds. But funny enough he didn't find me a job at his own place, he sent me to Lamberts Tape Sizers at Nelson. When I got there I didn't even take me coat off, they wouldn't allow that, Union you see? Because people were signing on, so they couldn't just take me on like that, not at Nelson because Nelson were red hot in them days with the union. So I had to come back and tell him. So, in the meantime, a fellow called Harry Kay, he used to have a shop down Rainhall Road, heard I were after a job, so I got introduced to Mr Wilfred Nutter, I had to go and see him at Mill and that’s why I finished up at Bancroft Mill.

R - Wilfred said that if I played cricket with Barnoldswick he’d find me a job, which suited me down to the ground.

R- Well, he said he'd start me off in the preparation room and we’d see how we went on from there. But also I got seven and sixpence [37 new pence] a week, which felt like a lot of money to me in them days, every week off him, out of his own pocket.

R - He were, he were president of the club. But don’t get Old Wilfred wrong, you'd always to do something before you’d get it off him. He'd go above half way with you. He'd say “Right, Well, I’ll give you £500 for something but you’ve to raise the other £250. When you've got that £250 I’ll give £500.” So that meant that he were going to get people to work for the cricket club, do something about it before they've got that 500 so easy you see?

R- Me and me mother, yes. While we were there my mother married again in 1937, and then I moved to Barlick when they moved down to Birmingham. He worked in the Cooperative Society and got a better job with the Cooperative Society in Birmingham.

R- And me mother went down there and I came over to Barlick and I lodged with, well I lodged with a girl, and then we got married in 1939.

So in 1935 to 1937 you were working at Barlick but living at Sough. So how did you get to work; bike up?

R- Seven o’clock, so we started at seven then we’d half past eight till nine o'clock for breakfast, nine o'clock till half past twelve, and then half past twelve till half past one for lunch and them half past one till half past five at night. But that, for t’preparation department such as tape sizers and preparation room, didn't finish there. Tape sizing and preparation carried on till nine o’clock Monday, Tuesday, they’d Wednesday off, and Thursday and Friday.

Aye. Now I’d better just make one thing clear at this point while we are on this tape, because this is where we start to come into the Bancroft job ... this was working for what was them James Nutter & Sons?

At Bancroft Shed. That’s it. And you’ve been working, apart from your war service, you've worked for them ever since?

So that was 1935, that's forty three years now. It's like a fair length of time Jim. So in those days ... I don’t really know which way to go now, we’ve got to … Let's go with cricket a bit. You’re on for Barlick.

R - No you see, I dropped .. In my way of thinking I dropped a grade in cricket when I come from Colne down to Barnoldswick.

R- I’m what you could call, although I say it myself, a brilliant slip fielder.

No no, but I know you must have been good, that's all there is to it. So, you are playing your cricket and you are enjoying your cricket.

R- I'm enjoying me cricket. I mean to say, if you can’t enjoy cricket with everything laid on for you, super nets, super cricketers to play with and good tackle…

R- Good wickets to bat on…then come to fielding, you also used to spend half an hour to three quarters of an hour on fielding practice. And we used to have what we called, well, I’m just forgetting what we called it…a cradle into which the ball were either knocked or thrown into and it used to come out at all different angles. You’d spend time with that and then you’d have the pro knocking catches up. Everything were real, well organised practice, you weren't having any Tom, Dick and Harry bowling at you. The first team bowlers used to go down to the second team net for a period and bowl at the top batters or what were reckoned to be the top batters in the second eleven. Second eleven, their bowlers would come up and bowl and see how they shaped against the top flight in't first team batters and so forth. But when you came to Barlick

there were just a net got put up and nowt organised you know. If you were down first you got first preference to and if you wanted a ball, if you didn't say to somebody “I’ll have that one when you’ve finished with it” and he might be half an hour. Nowt like that at Colne. You’d a period of so long to bowl, and so long batting and everything were worked out.

How were you received when you came to Barlick, ‘cause I mean like, you'd be brought since…you were young then, I mean, were you the youngest man on the team?

Yes, well I know, but there can be, there can be a bit of friction can there like ..

R- You see when I came .. say I came from Colne .. well like they’d know like a Colne cricketer is a grade higher than what it were at Barlick. So you were kind of looked up to for a bit you know. And like you’d be probably next man in line to the pro at the head [of the batting order] and so forth. So me first match, it were against MacDonald and I were to play in a football final and I didn’t want to get hurt. I thought well, I’d better make it so as I don’t get hurt because we were meant to be playing in a medal competition at Friday night with Earby Cricket Club so I says No, I’m not playing that. I must make certain I go to this cricket match.

R - Barlick And .. I think I keyed myself up that much, you know. And funny enough I went in and t’first ball of the day, I never saw it but I were walking out! Well I thought, that’s a bugger of a start! And as I said, but I didn't half hit ‘em if I could see ‘em. Anyway, I had the batting prize and .. I didn't do so bad.

How about t’rest of the first match, did you retrieve yourself at all with bowling or owt?

R- He didn't say owt. No, and when I got me wage at Wednesday I still got me seven and sixpence off him and all.

R - But this is when life started. I were pleased that there were a job. I never had a job before, never had a boss really, you know?

R – Well, when I started here it were a matter of ... oh I couldn't say Stanley. It’d be …you'd start learning hand twisting for a start and hand twisting in them days would be fourpence ha’penny a thousand ends. If I knotted a thousand ends I'd have earned fourpence ha’penny and anyway, they made me wage up to a certain figure you know.

When you say hand knotting, twisting, that were sitting in the frame and going down with two, going down the ends doing the same as the Barber Coleman does now.

R - Barber and Coleman knotter does now. Yes, only you picked them out with one hand and knotted 'em with the other.

R - But take it on that, we are speaking Stanley about when you were on nine hours a day aren’t we?

Now I'm asking you this question because I know the answer to it but when you first started it’d be like fairly hard on your fingers wouldn’t it?

R- It would be fairly hard on your fingers yes. Same as when I started and you come down to twisting same as tens and twelve’s [yarn counts] often I’d be twisting in blood, they’d be cut through.

R- Yes, yarn count you see. If you were twisting heavy counts of yarn it soon cuts into your fingers. But to eliminate a bit of that cutting, you can mix glycerine and whitening up which tends to keep your fingers just a slight bit softer and more pliable so that when you come to break these ends off and twist them up your finger, there’s more, it’s pliable you know, more give to it.

R- Tin of that and every now and again you’d dip your finger in. But it’s a job I didn’t take to. Hand twisting. I could do it but I didn’t enjoy it.

LANCASHIRE TEXTILE PROJECT

TAPE 78/AA/2