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THIS TAPE HAS BEEN RECORDED ON AUGUST 14th 1978 IN THE ENGINE HOUSE AT BANCROFT. THE INFORMANT IS JIM POLLARD, WEAVING MANAGER AND THE INTERVIEWER IS STANLEY GRAHAM.

Now this week I want to get stuck into the weft job a bit. We were just coming to it last week if you remember. Well , last week, a fortnight since we did last one. But anyway, we were just coming on to it then. All the time we have been talking about yarn up to now, it's all been mule spun, mule, mule weft coming in on cops. And then round about 1935 they started bringing in the more loom system, didn't they?

Now .. you just tell me whether I am right or whether I am wrong, but as I understand it before they could bring the more loom system in, and put weavers on to eight and ten looms, or in order to get them to accept that, they had to do certain things, and one of them was that they had to agree to slow the looms down a bit. And then the other they had to, in various ways, make it easier for the weaver to weave, didn't they? Like.,,.

Well. I were going to say, loom sweepers first, they had, they set loom sweepers on some of them, didn't they ? I know Ernie talks about going down to Westfield in 1932, and they set loomsweepers on then. And they had one

feller on with eight looms. So Ernie said it never came to anything there, and they did away with loomsweepers after about six months, and either put them on to weaving or else put them off. But evidently they'd brought them in with the idea of making it easier for the weavers. But anyway, as far as weft's concerned, they wanted to get a larger .. package, a larger yarn package but there's other advantages as well with rewound weft, isn't there? Now you tell me what they are. First of all tell us what exactly, what rewound weft is, what we are talking about.

R - Well, rewound weft we buy… What we are starting with now, mainly, is ring spun weft, which is the opposite way to what weft way is. It's a harder yarn, not so soft spun. Now then, when you get weft in ring spun you get it straight from t’spinners on what we call a ring tube, which was a big package on a bigger tube. The tube is only holding t’yarn on it which is taken off on what we call a coning machine. Now, correct? So we take it from there, we'll do this sharp Stanley, we take it from the coning machine to the rewinding machine.

R We've got ring tubes so what we are doing now, we still can't take it from… We could do, we could take .. it's straight from packages, we get it from the spinners, give it to the winders, and let them put it on what we call

a Welsh hat pirn. But we can make that a more profitable business by taking it from ring tube from spinners to a coning machine. So what we are doing we are building that package up, actually from t’spinners to the winders. Is that clear enough?

R- On the coning machine. We are making it into a two pound cone, that means you've two pound of yarn on each cone.

That's it. Well, it'll only be a matter of ounces on the other ones. [ring tubes]

R - Well there's only ... That's correct. Now if you leave it on that ring tube from t’spinners it means that you are getting more piecing on your rewound weft which is what we call Welsh hat pirns.

And, and ... I know Welsh hat pirns used to get me going a bit in the first place, but it's Welsh hat, like a Welsh type hat.

R- Now you have your shuttles, you’re talking about one way of moving on to the eight loom system. Now there're a lot of things to do before we went on to eight loom system. Main thing is ... you started off on a eight loom system, the pulleys that they had on four and five looms was six inches. Now, if you'd put them on that five, six inch pulley on eight loom they'd had been run off their feet. They wanted to be able to keep up with the weft. So that's no game, you're going to lose actually not gain anything by doing it that way. So what you did in t’first place you put bigger pulleys on to them looms to slow them down that bit. Now you've also got to bear in mind

that you've got to either increase your shuttle size for your bigger package, or you're going to have the same shuttle on that loom . Now that's going to make things more difficult if you happen to open that shuttle box and put a bigger shuttle in to give it more space between when that shuttle is entering in to your healds and reeds. Now if you don't give it so much, that shuttle is going into [hitting] them healds and reeds before it goes into what we call the shed so that it can pass between your warp threads. Now if you don't do that you're going to have more

R - No. They didn't, there were no difference, all as, all as they did, they increased the shuttle size Stanley. And they didn't increase what we call the shuttle box.

That's it. There was, there was an extension brought out for shuttle boxes weren't there ...

... that you could put in, another three inch on the shuttlebox. Because these shuttles that we are using now, or that we went on to, were a longer shuttle, they were perhaps a couple of inch longer than the other shuttles and the thing is that .. If you increase the size of the shuttle box you make it far easier to time that loom, you give the tackler more latitude, don't you?

R - That's right, you give him more scope for when that shuttle's going into its weaving shed, of the shed being thoroughly open.

R – Now, if you put a bigger shuttle in there that loom's got to be timed exact, and it's very difficult is that really.

And I think I am right in saying that biggest part of the looms that we have here at Bancroft never were extended, were they?

Ah, yes. So, this is something that I've gone into with Ernie actually ... So that's another reason why, in many ways the old tacklers with 140 looms with weavers on three and four loom system, had it a lot easier than tacklers now have it with 70 looms, and weavers on ten loom system. Because for a start off the weavers had more time to do bits of things for themselves ..

R - Well this is what we've talked about before Stanley. What we are talking about, what we've just mentioned now is weavers, what we called weavers, in the old days, when they could tell a tackler what were wrong with that loom, they couldn’t do the job but they knew what were wrong with it. So it just meant going to t’tackler and saying they’d this wrong. Tackler knew straight away what he were looking for. But not now. This is why it is so much more difficult tackling on Lancashire looms these days, because you haven’t that type of weaver that's at t’top of their weaving.

R - But as we were talking about shuttle Stanley .. why you've got to make it a bigger shuttle is we want a bigger package so as that loom is going to run that much longer for the weaver, he is not going to start that loom as many times in a day. Now, as we were talking before, we got a package from t’spinners before which was mostly mule spun, and you'd only have a six inch package, and happen three quarter of an inch diameter. Now then, we wanted to increase that by at least another inch and a half in length and from three quarters of an inch diameter we went to an inch and a eighth in diameter. So you can tell the difference in running time between the six

R - Well on 44s now, at t’loom speed now that we are running at, 180 picks per minute average .. a 44's cop in the old days would have run roughly nine and a half to ten minutes. Now then we've increased that to 16 minutes which is a lot of weaving, a lot of yardage, so it gives that weaver another six minutes time to follow those other two or four loom, which we’ll talk about when we increase to ten loom.

Now is there any advantage as well in the way that .. that yarn package has been wound, is it any better than mule spun, or rewound you know straight off the mule, why is it better?

R - Yes a lot better. Yes. Because there's no, what we call broaching a cop, or skewering a cop. All we used to put that on to were, were winders .. what we call a winders cop, it's mostly a hard cardboard tube with a ferrule at the bottom and its got a hole straight through t’middle of that, and that’ll be seven and three quarter inch into that. Now your ferrule at t’bottom, you'll find that the bottom side of your ferrule'll be edged, so that edge catches in two clips in your shuttle and is held firm. So all it means is .. you lift your shuttle peg up, just drop your pirn wound weft straight on to the top on it, shove your shuttle peg down, and that automatically fastens itself in them clips.

Whereas in the old days the cops have to be held on by friction on the peg. In fact they'd be actually…

R - On the peg. They either opened it or shut it, according to the tube size they were on. But same as now, you'd trouble with cops slipping off that shuttle peg, but a pirn won't slip, ‘cause it's fastened in with them two

clips at t’bottom, with your ferrule at t’bottom being edged over to fit into that clip. This is what I'm saying, there were no clips in the old shuttles in the old days, there were just ordinary shuttles.. where you drop your weft cop in, on top of your shuttle peg and that were it. But now they've these shuttle pegs, and a clip at t'back of the shuttle peg, which holds that ferrule with your weft pirn on. And in the old days they'd to, they had not what they call self threading shuttles. They'd to take a bit off that weft, put it in the front of the shuttle and draw it through the eye of the shuttle, by breathing in. Now occasionally if you took a deep breath, part of that weft which came out of that eye in your shuttle'd touch the back of your throat. And it’s a dirty job, what we used to call .. kissing the shuttle. Well all it means is weaver were threading that shuttle, and only way as you could do it were drawing it in, by your own breath.

And were the dangers of that realised while they were using it? You know, did anybody ever try and bring any system out for threading a kissing shuttle without .. kissing it?

R- And they -were losing money by doing it that way. Now if you, if you .. we are talking now, what you just mentioned, we're going back to the old days Stanley. Now the way it was .. a weaver had to make a certain average or she'd lose them looms, and there were always somebody in them days keen to get them looms. So if she threaded them by a small hook, which it’d just go through that eye, and then she'd have to grope about for t’end of that thread to pull it through and this took her far, a lot longer than what we call kissing t'shuttle and drawing it in by your own breath.

So in other words the systems that they did have for threading a shuttle without actually kissing the shuttle were no good because the weavers wouldn't accept them because it knocked the average back.

R - They'd accept anything which were a time saver. Self threaders were brought in when they went on more looms because you could just get hold of that thread

as soon as you, you used to take hold of that thread and soon as you were pushing your .. cop down into your shuttled that thread automatically goes into that groove in t'shuttle top and through your eye, and it's threaded.

I'm not talking about when they made the kissing shuttle illegal, I'm talking about ...

R - No. self threading shuttles were brought in into this place in 1948, just after the war.

R - Now this is when they started increasing more, on more loom system. Because 'Britain's strength were in Lancashire’s thread' they said, just after that.

Aye, that's it. So where, before the war, say between 1935 and 1939, well during the war as well to some extent .. where they were talking about the more loom system, they were actually talking about an eight loom system. They were talking about eight loom system, usually.

R - No because if you, we are talking about the system which, as I'm going back in the old days, like up to say ... What I call old days is from, say, 1935 to just before the war. On that system then they were on 4's and 5's here. A good weaver had six but if they'd had gone on to eight there’d have been a hue and cry with the Union. It hadn't much strength in them days, but we’d seen one all out position with cotton, and they didn't gain anything by it, they lost actually.

R - Nineteen .. 1 should say about 1929, 28 or 29. And they didn't come off they didn't come off any better by it.

R - Terrible. I know I were just about, well nearly coming to finishing at school then you know. I were caught up in t’strike.

R- Accidentally with going into , to me pals that were working in cotton. And .. when I come walking out with them the road is fully of booing people for being

in at work. [This was at Sough Bridge Mill] But .. but they didn't .. it didn't make no difference Stanley. This is what I say about these times you see, and this is why our cotton is in such a state now.

No, that's something that we are quietly going to get at , that's something I shall quietly get towards. Now, on with , what's rewound weft?

R - Oh, best thing, one of t’best things that's came out for the weavers, a money spinner I should say, for the weaver.

And yet it was brought in really to enable the manufacturers to get them on to more looms and get more cloth out of them.

And when they went on to the more loom system, were they still on piece rate as well?

Yes. So in other words they weren't getting any bonus or anything, if they didn't draw, if they didn't take a piece into the warehouse during the week, they didn't take any money home.

That's it. So even when they went first of all from four looms on to the more loom system, they were still on piece rate.

That's it. Now then, another thing started to come in then. I mean, we’ve talked about mule weft and, and ring weft .. When did ring spinning start to come in? Was there ring weft when you first started?

R - Well it's .. we're talking about .. it just depends what cloth you're wanting that yarn for Stanley. Now you take ring weft, ring weft is your harder spun weft than what mule spun is. Now, in t’days as we've just been talking about there was a lot more soft weft used than what there was hard spun. Because you used to make in them days a lot of Winceyette, which we call a raising cloth. We used to make a lot of two and two twills which were made off mule yarn.

When you say 'raising cloth' that's when they put it through .. well they call it a stenter don't they, or a stenter actually afterwards and raise the nap on it.

R- Now then .. biggest part of this stuff such as Winceyette and Two and Two Twills .. this were a better Winceyette really, that’s all, it was made into nightwear, pyjamas, nightdresses

R - All sort of stuff you see? Now, there weren't such as this non-inflammable, they'd nothing to treat it with. Now that trade's gone.

R - So as we .. wait a minute, as we were talking about ring spun, it’s just, there was still ring spun, don't get me wrong Stanley, there always has been ring spun, but it just depends what mill .. one might use more mule than ring, because they’d want it for a different cloth.

Yes. But now if you were buying .. say we are talking about, just for argument sake, about 1930. Say you were buying ring spun then. We are still

on the old kissing shuttle with short package in. When you bought ring spun weft then, did you buy it on ring tube and put it on to a small package yourself or did you buy it, did the spinners rewind it on to a smaller package, and send it to be

R - Spinners spun it on to a package there, which we've talked about, on tube weft, with just this little tube

R - Paper tube, which is .. [what the ] yarn were built up on. And then after you'd come to the end of that inch tube, paper tube, you’d have to skewer that yourself.

Yes. So in other words they'd .. when they spun it, when they did their actual ring spinning operation, they wouldn't spin it on to ring tubes and then rewind it on to paper bottoms?

R - Oh if you were buying ring they'd do it .. it's in a similar way Stanley but on a ring frame.

That's it, yes, that's what I'm talking about, because .. obviously there weren't pirns then, there weren't Welsh hat pirns and clips in the shuttles and what not, so what they'd do ..instead of spinning it on to a ring tube, and then winding it on to a paper bottom cop, they'd spin it straight on to a paper bottom cop, just the same as if it were on a ring .... frame.

Yes. So in those days then, when they were ring spinning, unless they were spinning that for the beamer, it’d be ring spinning on to paper bottoms, you know, making yarn packages

R – Now, there's… Well you still spun, you could… you'd have frames Stanley for .. what we call cop and they'd also have frames for ring tube.

R - Because .. even going back in them days, Stanley, there were honest people and decent machinery. You take Leesona’s, they'd been going since 1900s. Now then, what they do you see they, they could rewind off a ring tube in them days, with Leesona machines.

So some people'd be rewinding on to t’plain paper tube that went right up the middle.

R - We used to get condenser on a wrap paper through tube, right to the top. Now they found out .. you’re starting with that, some'd be spiralled, some of this here, it had a, like happen every inch it would have a, kind of a ring in this hard cardboard, and you might finish up with thirteen of these rings, on this tube. Now that were all right, because that held your yarn fairly firm on that tube. Now others they got a different idea, and they put it on a dimpled tube, what we call a dimpled tube. Now that weren't as satisfactory as what these thirteen ring tubes were. Some, because these dimples were a bit dear and t’rings were dear, they'd still spin on to ordinary plain tube, and that were dynamite. Because you'd nothing on that tube only pressure with opening your [shuttle peg]

R - ... Weft peg, that spring in t'peg of your shuttle, you had to keep opening it and shutting it for this type, and you'd open it that far that it sometime split tube and let it all go.

R - That's what it did, with being nothing there it just pulled straight away. As soon as you've put your first or second pick in, that tube’d come completely off. And you were fortunate if it didn't make you a mess.

And one more little thing about that in them days, it's something that Ernie mentioned the other night, it's just, I’m just really checking now. Ernie said the other night that when they were kissing shuttles with mule cops, he said that you didn't need any rabbit fur in the shuttles.

R - Well you didn't Stanley, no, no, you didn't. You see, once you start with rewound weft Stanley, you've machines which you can set .. Now you don’t get all them cops, no matter what anybody says, same diameter. You'll get it somewhere near, if you follow what I mean. Now then, if you set your stall

out for, say, a pirn cop of a, an inch and a eighth .. Now, if you come with an inch you've a bit of play in that shuttle, haven’t you? So you've got to have something which will keep that tension on that yarn that's coming off, flowing off, you don’t want it just coming off at any do ... or you are going to spoil the cloth. So you've got to have something which will control that weft yarn. So you put fur in, fur in your shuttle, which way your yarn

is coming off that pirn, either left handed or right handed, and that'll control it, it'll tighten it up so as that there's no slack pirn, no slack weft threads going into that cloth, or otherwise you'll have lost your weft, all along that cotton.

Ernie were telling .. this actually, it’s just light entertainment this, but Ernie were telling the other night .. Actually it wasn't on the tape, when he was tackling at Stew Mill at County Brook they were weaving some stuff there, and the weft that they were weaving with was .. I think, it must have been some special weft, and it was three fold, two were cotton and one was elastic. And he said “You’ve never seen anything like it” he said “it was, it was flying out wrapping itself round knocking on lever he said even the shuttle". He said they had some fun with it.

Yes. Oh he said some of the weird, wonderful things they had to do, they finished up they had to wrap string round the slay by the shuttle ...

Yes. That was what it was for, the string was to control your weft, that's all, he said it was flying out in bunches as it went into the box and come out again. Anyway that's .. Now, we come on to something now which I find very interesting. Now I must just tell you a little bit of history now, which you know more about than me, but it's just to get you going ..

If you start to read the books about ... Well, really, the reasons why the Lancashire cotton industry had such a big decline .. one of the things that is brought up very often and I think by people who really haven’t studied the job properly, is the fact that the Northrop loom was invented, the Northrop automatic loom was invented in 1896 I think the date was. Or it first started to came into general use in America in 1896, the patent was taken out and they started to manufacture. And in about 19 .. shortly after 1900,

was an offshoot of the American company, started up at Blackburn then, that works at Blackburn. And so, by the turn of the century, the automatic loom was available in Lancashire, and one of the reasons that's been put forward, as I say I have me doubts about it but there again I am questioning, one of the reasons that was put forward as to why the Lancashire cotton industry had had a recession that they had, was the fact that they never modernised fast enough, they didn't re-invest in new machinery and

install automatic looms which would have made them more profitable, and enabled them to keep up with the markets. Now just recently it has been pointed out, there is an American I've forgotten his name now, done a very good book about the Lancashire cotton industry. And he points out that in America the automatic loom was used, and in effect they had exactly the same problems that we have, or had, irrespective of the fact that they had modernised, you see, and put the automatic looms in. Now .. go back now to when you first started to become aware about what was going on in the industry, you know, '35 to the beginning of the war, to what extent were automatic looms being used then, and you tell me, just imagine that you.. I know that you would always have liked to have been a mill owner with plenty of capital .. what would your attitude had been towards scrapping what would appear at first sight to be perfectly good Lancashire looms weaving perfectly good cloth.. how would you have weighed it up, going on to automatics? But first if all, tell me, when did you first come across automatics, you know, when were they first being used?

Twenty nine. And what were they, they'd be weaving that Lustrafil then, wouldn't they? Yes.

Aye. Yes. how about automatics on cotton. We're talking, when we're talking about automatics in those days we’re talking about Northrops really, aren't we?

R - Yes, you are not talking about such as what we are on with now, Saurers, Rutis, all these fancy jet looms, and such as that.

R – We are talking about Northrops, which we got in Lancashire which is an offshoot off the Americans, isn't it? Now then, when we look, talking back in them days Stanley, you're talking back of a period when weavers were plentiful, aren't you? Industry, all throughout Lancashire area was cotton, there

was very little engineering. Now if anybody wanted, wanted engineering, there were a few left this area in 1936, 1935, when things were getting a bit tight, and went down to a place called Coventry, which were motor industry. Now then, I'll take t’boss here, W E Nutter, I don't think he ever thought that there'd be a shortage of weavers. Now, he could produce as much cotton as he wanted with the old Lancashire looms that he had, Stanley. He always had labour which were cheap, so what's good of him modernising when he can get all t’cloth he wants with Lancashire looms which is in this place. And there were always labour for that shed. You take it here, there were between 400 and 500 here, before the war. And people not working but waiting on work. So why should he modernise Stanley? He'd also nobody to follow him, his son wasn't interested in t’cotton industry. Now, you take it from there Stanley, if he's nobody to follow him, he is not going to spend all his money on Northrop looms. What's the good when he can produce as much cotton as he wants, with t’cheap labour that he's got, no point in it.

R - Soon check on that. But this is way these bosses, I'm, I'm talking about this area, looked at such things Stanley ...

R - I should think that’d be a fairly general point of view. Now then, change over came as soon as war broke out. Wars as they'd had before, there were never the scale of bombing that went on, like they did in t’second world war were there? So what they did, they moved these industries out of the Midlands into such places as where we are now, Barnoldswick or round this area.

R - Now then .. industry then, as far as cotton's concerned, is on the way in, because labour was taken out of these cotton mills in some areas... they'd only a certain amount of labour left. The other labour who went out of there, and they went into these other industries, into such as Rover Company where they .. which were doing aircraft engines weren't they? Now then, they looked at it straight away and think "What fools we've been when there's jobs like this”. And where they clogged away in the old days on four and five loom to earn the bit of pay they got. Things have so vastly changed

now, Stanley, and due to the bosses own faults. They thought in the old days if they were providing you with work, that was as far as it went with the bosses.

I think that's a very good point, Jim, I’ve never really heard it put like that before, but I think you've just about put it in a nutshell there. They were actually ... that, because really that was the attitude, wasn't it. The manufacturer was actually doing you a favour by letting you work.

R - By letting you work at that firm. And that's what it amounted to. And this is why people, you can say what you like, good bosses breed a good work force, bad bosses breed strong Unions and a bad work force. And this is what policy was in the old days. We are not taping, are we?

R - Oh in that case That's my ...that’s just what I think of t 'textile industry.

Yes. No I think, I think that's a very good point that, though ... You've, you've condensed something there into a nutshell for me. I think that that was .. And when you come to think of it, there is another thing about it and all. I should think it'll be true to say that the cotton industry really, was a very .. it was a very fragmented industry, and a very parochial industry. When I say that, there were a lot of small family firms. I mean, I count Nutters as a small family firm, you know

R - But, let me break in there, you take Nutter, Stanley. Before the war, Nutters along with the others were all combined in 2,500 looms, which is a lot of looms.

And ... That's something just in passing. Now, that's another thing just in passing, something 1 found out the other day that I hadn't realised That when this mill opened, in 1920 or whenever it was, ac ...

R - But he started up, first time he started up and stroked over were 1921. [March 13^th 1920 actually]

R - This was starting with one of the other brothers, Wilfred Nutter's brother Rupert, he started this going.

R - He was ... Nutter Bros. Yes. Now then, families don’t see eye to eye. Rupert fell out with Wilfred and so forth, eventually Wilfred wanted a bigger place, they'd happen have 400 loom in one place in Bankfield which were a big shed then, another 300 somewhere else .. But Wilfred wanted, wanted to

get equivalent of as near 1200 loom as he could in one place. Now, somehow or other he heard that Rupert were wanting a move, which were ideal for him. So what he did, he .. naturally bought this place, and he were on you know, and Rupert moved out of here and went to Grove Mill at Earby.

R - It were .. ah, Nutter Bros. You'll hear of Nutter Bros. now, which is at Read. They moved, they moved .. Nutter Bros. moved out of here to Grove Mill at Earby, then they moved back to Pickles's, a part of Pickles's , and, and they moved from there into Wellhouse Mill, and then they were took over in Wellhouse Mill, and then they moved to a place at Read, Friendship Mill which runs as Nutter Bros. now.

Yes. So .. well let's get back to, we'll get back to the Northrops anyway. So .. we're in a position .. Oh, that's another thing, that's another thing as well. Is it possible to run a Northrop automatic loom on ... mule cop weft?

No, one of the things, the reason I ask you that you see, I’m ignorant about it, the reason I ask you is that, another reason that has been put forward, I think this is a fallacy myself actually .. but another reason for the, another reason why the Lancashire mill owners didn't go on to the Northrop loom in a big, way was said to be the fact that in order to run a Northrop loom efficiently, or run it at all ...

... They had to .. have ring spun weft. And they said that one of the reasons why the Northrop wasn't taken up was because there weren't enough, ring spindles. Well, I can't see that, because if the demand had been there, there'd have soon been more ring spindles.

R - They'd had .. well, as far as what you're talking about Stanley, I'm thinking a bit the same way as you.. I've had nothing to do with Northrops but they’d gone so far with a Northrop looms hadn't they? There's no reason why they couldn't go a bit further and find out why mule, if that were the case, wouldn't weave on a Northrop loom. But you see

a lot of fancy weaving, which they hadn't got round to doing on such as Northrops in them days, there were sheds full of jacquards you know.

R - A plain loom. Yes. All that they were for, that Northrop, were to get cloth off faster than a Lancashire loom.

That's it, like say sheeting or something like that. Aye, that’d be ideal wouldn't it, for sheeting looms or something like that.

R - It'd be ideal, you see? Yes. .. Place at Cotton Tree, which is near Colne, that used to have a shed full of jacquard looms. Marvellous designs on, on cloth, Lions and Tigers. All this stuff used to be exported back to India, really.

Like a jacquard’s like a very very complicated dobby, isn't it, it's a very similar thing like?

R- Yes. You'd think .. for your, for your pattern work you'd think you were putting a, a sheet of music into one of these pianos that plays on its own.

Yes, I've seen the looms and they have all the strings coming out of the healds, don't they?

R - Yes, that's right, it works on your peg systems which moves your, what they call fingers up and down.

Yes, aye. Aye, they could be dozens and dozens of them couldn't there on't jacquards?

R - There you think you're walking under a .. one flap of a tent, the way it used to hang down from this gearing at the top.

That's it, yes. I've never actually seen a jacquard but I've seen the photographs of them. Aye.

R - Oh- Yes, there's many, yes my sister used to weave them. But you see that's only thing they hadn't Stanley, they hadn't come into that then with Northrops, it were just a faster producer of the ordinary plain cloth. But as we were talking before, you see, there were all this labour about and it were cheap labour. I might have been the same in the old days Stanley, I don't know, all that labour about, I don't think I’d have been as rotten a boss as some of these were. And yet world war II changed all that outlook of people in the Lancashire area Stanley. They found out that they were, they were doing less work and drawing more money in such as engineering, aircraft industry, and they weren't as browbeat with the bosses.

R- Which started to put .. now anybody that came out of the forces that had been in cotton .. and you used to go, like, to the unemployment .. make arrangements, either you wanted to go back to your own job with your own firm, or you wanted another job. Take meself when I come out, I said no, I want a fresh job, you know? And then when he said gasworks, "I have a job at t'Gasworks", he froze me, I thought Well, I’d better get back to textiles!

R - And they were only too keen to get you back in textile, because there were that many leaving.

Yes. Now, apart from automatics there were one change that was made in most sheds, I'm not talking about places with sheeting looms and things like that .. but there was, tell me if I'm right at not, was there a tendency to, towards wider looms? Say from the war period onwards?

R - Throughout these years Stanley, I've listened to all sorts of tales ..”We’ve no orders for narrow cloth, we'll have to get some broad looms” It's all right, we ship 60 narrow ones out and bring in 40 wider looms.

A - Yes. It's all right, that, them looms run for a period of happen 12 months. Same thing apply “Why, we are short of orders for these broad ones and plenty for the narrow 40 inch” But it's too late, we've shut 60 narrow ones. Admittedly you can put a narrow cloth in a broad loom, but you'll have to pay for it.

A - So actually they are losing money, aren't they? I've heard this for years Stanley and same thing carries on to these days now. It can come one twelve months broad cloth, next twelve months there is nowt for broad looms, they want narrow cloth. This is why; there’s been no stable demand for cloths in textile industry. And as I was saying to you just now, labour was plentiful and they only stuck it because there was nothing else. Now then, when you get into another industry they'll not have such things as this, being short of work. Because there is nothing more horrid to work at, Stanley, than not being certain whether that job is secure or not.

Yes, I were just going to say that, the great thing about textiles, I mean, nobody ever knows from one month end to the other ..

So, if there wasn't a big move to wide looms now, when this shed was first put in, I think .. what was it? Eleven fifty two looms it had in But yet during the war they were still full up to the walls but it were only 857, were it, that it had in the shed? Now what had made that difference? Was it the size of the looms or the spacing?

R - Now then, do you remember ., I don't know whether you knew it or not but they got paid for storing looms. Did you know that?

R - Not only that, say here they'd 1152 loom hadn’t they? They couldn't run 1152 loom during the war, they weren't allowed so much cotton. So they were allowed so much off the government for them looms being stopped. Correct?

R- Now then, W,E&D’s shed which was a part of, which was at Wellhouse Mill, but it was still part of W.E. Nutter which run Bancroft Mill, they'd looms, oh happen say 1130 down at Wellhouse Mill. Now then, they'd no intentions of going back in that mill after the war. So a big number of them looms was brought from there and stored at the top of looms here.

R - Stacked up on top of other looms, in this place, which [looms] they were paid

for again. This is why. Now then, why you've dropped in looms is .. because when you started what we've been on about they come with more looms, eight loom system, there was an increase in that after, say 1948, where they started ten loom. Now that altered spacing.. Now there used to be in this shed 36’s, 38's, 39's, 40’s, 42’s, 44’s, 45’s, 55’s and 60 inch looms. It's all right, first move they did was they moved the 55's and the 60 inch. which we have just been talking about, broad looms.

LANCASHIRE TEXTILE PROJECT

TAPE 78/AA/5