THIS TAPE HAS BEEN RECORDED ON THE 8TH OF AUGUST 1978 AT 17 CORNMILL TERRACE, BARNOLDSWICK. THE INFORMANT IS BILLY BROOKS AND THE INTERVIEWER IS STANLEY GRAHAM.
[As the tape starts, Billy is talking about the names on the engine at Long Ing Shed.]
Lizzie and Minnie eh?
R-Aye.
Who were Lizzie?
R-Robinson Brooks wife, Elizabeth.
Were Minnie Slater’s wife?
R-I think Ted Slater who had her I think.
Aye well, they’d be original shareholders with Rushworth wouldn’t they.
R-Well, in Long Ing aye, Rushworth would be because they got [the contract for] all the ironwork you know.
Well, we’re up to about the First World War aren’t we Billy. You didn’t go away to the war then Billy?
R-No, I were in South African War, I were about 18, stretcher bearing in South African Boer War.
You were in the Boer War!
R-Aye, well I went as an ambulance man you see. Ambulance man, there were a lot went from Barlick, you could go for six month you see at four bob a day if you’d passed First Aid and I passed First Aid twelve months afore.
So what year did you go to South Africa?
R-1899.
Well I’ll be beggared! Now isn’t that funny, I were all set to ask you about First World War, it never dawned on me it could be the African War! And that were a regular do were it, that you could sign on for six months as an ambulance man?
R- It were during the Boer War. And you worked in th’hospitals you know, orderlies you know if you’d first aid. If you had a first aid certificate , if you’d been in’t ambulance years before, they’d have you, but you’d to go in a uniform you know, ambulance uniform and then they sent you back you see.
So where did you go to join?
R-I didn’t go nowhere, they simply sent up to the superintendent here you see. If there were any men prepared to take on.
So obviously you were in the St John’s Ambulance then.
R-Aye, But after that I went in the Territorials at Duke of Wellington’s at Skipton, based at Skipton.
And when you went to South Africa, where did you go when they accepted you, you’d have to go somewhere to be kitted up wouldn’t you Billy? Where did you go to be kitted up?
R-Well aye, it were down at Devonport or somewhere down there you know. I’ve just forgotten now which it were, but we had to go to Ossett first because there were a lot more going from there and they sent them all together you see. Well, at t’coronation of King Edward [22 Jan 1901] I were down in London that day on duty in t’street as an ambulance man, aye. Oh yes, there were twenty of us went from Barlick.
That’s it, yes, I remember you telling me that before, that’s it. What was the name of the boat you went on to South Africa, can you remember?
And we get up to Delagoa Bay and we were out in that bay for a while. They were fetching ‘em across you see, I did nearly all me time on that boat, Simla.
Did you go ashore at all?
R-Well, odd times but there were a tremendous lot of fever then, it doesn’t seem to be now. But there were several Barlickers died of fever, enteric fever, aye. Staff Sergeant George Green, you’d never know him of course, he went and he died there, May 1st 1900. Oh they were dying in scores of fever then, I don’t know how it were but of course there don’t seem to be that now you know.
When you say they were dying in scores, do you mean men that went out there? You mean that soldiers were dying.
R-Yes they were, dying of fever.
Did you see any of the fighting while you were out there?
R-Well no, we were a bit out of the way of that you know. Now if I’d stopped on a lot longer I might have gotten into it, I don’t know.
Aye, that’s it.
R-Now, Second War {Billy means the First World War.] I volunteered as a stretcher bearer for that and we were practicing in the field waiting of being sent for and that were 28 bob a week. We were practicing bandaging and all that and then I’d getten t’wife to get me a box wi’ needle and thread and all that sort of stuff to go. They sent word they’d getten some frae Ossett in place but Lord Kitchener had taken hold then and he said we could join the Royal Army Medical Corps at a shilling a day. Well, we were going at four shillings you see so of course we didn’t join that, no. There’d be about twelve of us and we’d go down in’t fields for about a week waiting of word coming aye. I went to say goodbye to me relatives over at Clitheroe and there and it missed.
So you never went then Billy in’t finish.
R-No. Well, war started you know, it ‘ud be t’First World War. I were in’t Territorials for three years and I’d resigned [in 1913] and t’year after that, in 1914, t’war came on. Well, them that were in’t terriers, you see I’d resigned the year before, all the terriers that were in Barlick you know they had to go down in’t train at Saturday morning. So me and a friend of mine, Tom Reeves, we’d been in before, in’t terriers, he says let’s join up ‘cause I had a stripe and I should have get, I’d happen get to be a sergeant reight away, we being trained you know. So we went down wi’ em to Skipton. Well we goes up to the drill hall you know and we knew t’Sergeant Major as looked after ‘em, there was allus a Sergeant Major from’t regulars that looked after t’Territorials. Now then, what do you two want. Well I says, Sergeant Major, we wants to sign on . Well, he says, I’m that busy today I can’t. Come back next week. So we went home disappointed in a way. It were t’best thing that could ever have happened were that for us, aye. If he’d taken us on we should have been fast then you see, aye, for the duration of the war. Aye, he says come back next week, I haven’t time to bother. Well you can understand when men were coming in you know and they had to fit them up wi’ stuff aye. He says Come next week. By God I’ve talked about that many a time, aye.
And yet at that time you felt as though you wanted to volunteer.
R-Yes, I wanted, we wanted to go then, aye.
Can you tell me why you wanted to go?
R-Well, it’s like same as it’s a kind of fever you know when a war’s declared you know. You don’t study nowt nobbut you feels you want to go you know.
And yet during the following week you changed your thinking.
R-It had gone off a bit so we thought we wouldn’t bother aye. I says happen we’d better stop at home. He says aye. Well I said they’ve gone to Immingham Docks at Hull. Sleeping on the docks an all sorts like. I said We won’t bother. Aye. I had a brother, two brothers that had to go wi’t terriers but one got to the front you know and at Skipton, Colonel Longden Smith, he were a big man at Skipton you know, he gave ‘em all a little Bible. And one Sunday morning there were a shell burst and a big lump of shell and it cut a piece off at the corner, aye. Aye, if he hadn’t have had that there he’d have been a gonner. And it just took it off but it sliced a piece off that thickness off the corner, a piece of shell, aye. But he had to go to hospital and he got invalided back to England you know. They had to get that lump of shell out, there were a lump of shell in his breast and he were a long time in th’hospital and when he came out he got home on leave a bit and they were , these that had been wounded, they were sending them out on the farms to help with food growing and all that. So he applied and they were formed in a row and they said Do you know anything about farming? And me brother says Aye. But he says I knew nowt about it so of course he got on but he says I soon learned, I used to cart turnips into town you know, go to t’shops and all that sort of thing and he billeted wi’ ordinary folks you know. And he were there when the war finished and you could get anybody out of the army if you had a job for ‘em reight away you see so I got him a taping job wi’ me so he were released from that farm then, aye. He says I liked it there, they were a grand couple I lived wi’, aye.
Whereabouts was that Billy?
R-He were down, I’ve forgotten now whereabouts he were, it were somewhere down in the South I think. Oh he says, I learned, I soon learned he said the farmer knew he didn’t know much about it so he showed him bits of things he wanted to know, aye.
Sop when you came back from South Africa did the hospital ship come back as well or did they send you back.
R-No, th’hospital ship were still out there, it might have been posted somewhere else, I forget now you know. I don’t know.
How did you come back then Billy?
R-Now then I came back on a troopship you know, they were sending the wounded back you know. Now after that of course [I think Billy has skipped to the time after he decided not to sign up in the First World War.] you had to go up [for a medical] you know. So I came out grade three owing to rheumatic in me fingers, look, like that. [Shows me his fingers] Aye, he looked at that and he says That’s rheumatic but I says Well, it’s of a cold morning, I said like they go dead in a way. I put a lot on you know. So he gave me grade three and I got to stop at me job taping you know. It were national importance you see. A chap says to me when he saw me wi’ that, he says I’d give hundred pound for that, this chap says, aye. He’d come off grade one and he had to go you know. Of course, the war didn’t last long after that you know.
How were trade during the war?
R-Well, cotton trade were good you know but they couldn’t, they had to pay a levy for every loom they ran. Aye, they were getting a lot of money, money were no object you know. They used to make stuff, balloon cloth for these barrage balloons and all sorts. Oh aye, they were making brass then but they couldn’t run all their looms you see, they hadn’t workers for ‘em and them that run a lot of looms, they had to pay the levy to the union in Barlick. Well, after the war were finished, you got so much out of that levy if you were out of work. I’ve forgotten what they called it. Butts Top, aye, t’union, Gardner they called him, he were secretary of the union. Well, you’d go there and you’d get so much do you see, it wouldn’t be above ten bob but that were a lot of brass in them days.
When you say Butts Top, whereabouts were the union office at Butts Top then?
R-Well, it’s a plumber’s shop now. It were there next to that paper shop .
Aye, that’s it, used to be Standing’s printers.
R-Aye it did. Well there were a shop in between you see
Aye, that’s it. Martin’s took it over, the plumbers.
R-Aye, that’s it. It has his name in the window yet but he’s dead is Jack and so is Jack Spencer. [his partner] He were up in Scotland wi’ his daughter I think. He were alright were Jack. I apprenticed me son wi’ Jack at five bob a week while he were twenty or twenty one, five bob a week.
That ‘ud be Jack Martin. Well, your son ‘ud be 64 when he died so when would that be when you apprenticed him?
R-It ‘ud be about 1920, sommat like that. I think he left school when he were thirteen. See, well, he got on well wi’ Martin, it were nobbut five bob a week. Well when me and t’wife put him in t’boarding house he were general foreman for the council, Sidney Brooks. He were a tall chap, he were general foreman. It looks as if you’d come across him some time.
Aye, it weren’t him we used to call the Mouse Man were it? You know, if you wanted some poison for mice you could go down and see him.
R-Well, he were t’general foreman.
Aye, I’d know him. Course, you see my trouble was wi’ wagon driving I spent very little time in Barlick then you know.
R-Aye well, he’d worked for the Council as a plumber for the gas works but when they wanted a general foreman he applied for it and he got it. Looked after t’streets, lighting and all. He were general, he’d nowt to do, but he allus wanted to be doing sommat, he could have dressed his self up if he’d wanted to. Aye, he worked for the Council for twenty years, aye.
So you were taping down at …….
R-Westfield.
Westfield there and of course you’d be taping there until the second world war wouldn’t you?
R-Aye, yes. I finished in 1943. War had been on for about a year then hadn’t it. [Four years actually] Well, I were in Blackpool the remainder of the war you see. Of course I were ower age then you know. I were nearly sixty you know.
What made you retire early Billy, were it war coming on that made you retire. Did Westfield carry on weaving during the war?
R-Oh aye, yes. Aye well, I left in 1943, I didn’t retire, I went into a boarding house. I worked while I were seventy in the boarding house.
So you took a boarding house in Blackpool.
R-We took a boarding house near Central Station in Vance Road and we were in it sixteen year. Then my wife got so as she were poorly and I were alreight. So we just, his [Sidney’s] wife were a Blackpool lass, she wanted to go to Blackpool. They had three children in this house, brought ‘em up. [17 Cornmill Terrace] So I says Well, you can have this house if your mother agrees. I says You mun ask your mother, if she says yes it’s yours. So I went out of the road you know, Well, she says, It isn’t what I’d have liked you to have but if you want it you can have it. So we just, following Easter, he gave his notice in to the Council about January so that he could come into the boarding house at Easter. So we just packed up me and the wife and I sent a skip wi’ me bits of stuff in down here and I went up wi’ em to the bus stop and they stepped in the bus and off, aye. That were it aye.
How did you like running the boarding house Billy?
R-Oh it had its ups and downs like everything else. Sometimes you had bits of worry you know and you get ower ‘em. In winter I used to do bedrooms up you know. Downstairs of course I get professionals in to do ‘em but I used to do bedrooms you know. I’d go into a bedroom, take the beds out and put ‘em on the landing and get me steps and light me pipe and look round what to do. I used to spend about a week in a bedroom. Me wife ‘ud ring the bell, me tea were ready. Don’t go up no more, you’ve done enough today. No, I’ve finished. Well, when I’d getten me tea, nay I think I’ll go up and do the top again and then it’ll be finished will the top. So I went back, I’d be there well after ten. Aye, well it were passing time on you see. I were never a drinker you know to go out drinking you see. Well, I same as I am now, well I never bother going adrinking you know. I went up to Rolls Royce last Sunday night and I had a bottle of Guinness and stopped an hour you know, that’s all, aye. No, I used to enjoy lots of things in the boarding house. Sometimes you’d have worries you know.
What sort of worries Billy?
R-Well, the butcher had some meat condemned at t’top of t’street and we got us meat there. We had some meat you know and t’wife were very clean in everything and some on ‘em were poorly you know wi’ poisoning. Aye they were. And we couldn’t help it you know. That were a worry you know. Aye, Well, they wouldn’t come again you know when owt like that happened. Course, we didn’t bother, we get someone else. But that worried me a lot. It worried me more than wife did that, aye. She were spotless, too particular in a way, aye. And it just happened like that, aye. It had come from the same shop as there’d been some condemned. Now whether it had been in contact with it I don’t know, never tell, no.
Where would you rather have been working Billy, in the mill or the boarding house?
R-Well, I’d rather be in the boarding house in a way because in winter time I’d nowt to do you know. We made us living in the summer and it lasted all winter you see. I could do what I liked at end of September or October you see and shut t’front door. We opened at Christmas but we give ower. We said no, we won’t bother wi’ Christmas. So we had winter to do wi’ what we liked, we used to come across to Barlick for a month, aye. Happen in October, November. They were snowed up here one time, I were falling on me arse in snow up and down and when we got back to Central Station at half past six at night, eh, dry as a bone. Everything were dry and lit up. Eh I says, it’s grand to get out of that snow isn’t it.
In between the wars Billy you were a member of the union, did you ever get interested in politics between the wars?
R-Well I don’t know, ordinary you know. I were a member of the Council for six years, Conservative member you know.
Aye, now there you are, tell me about that. When did you first put up for the Council Billy?
R-About 1940, now I’ll tell you, I put up against Ted Smith, he were chairman of the Labour Party and he were a schoolmaster up here. [I think Billy means Gisburn Road School.] He licked me wi’ nine votes. I’d votes, if they had been fetched who were mine, the dozy buggers, there were a chap in’t committee room, he were giggling and laughing wi’t lasses and squeezing ‘em up and that’s where they were! When they came to have a look at t’scale on Sunday morning they could see there were names that should have been brought, aye, that’s the way they did, aye. Well, t’second year, Fred Baldwin were putting up, he used to be the postmaster, well he were conservative, I didn’t put up again him you see. The year after, we having done so well that they thought I was going to get in unopposed, but Fred Steele come in, solicitor, he come in as a candidate and he licked me wi’ 24.
What were Fred Steele standing as, Liberal.
R-Well, I don’t know what the hell he were, he reckoned to be all sorts you know. (Laughter)
He’d be Independent would he?
R-Well I think he were but you know he faced all roads you know. I got to Teddy Wood’s door, he were a big Labour Man and he says Well, you know Mr Steele’s putting up? I said aye but he isn’t….. He says Oh yes, he’s a Labour man is Mr Steele. That showed you didn’t it and he nobbut licked me wi’ twenty four votes. There were a Labour man in, I’ve forgotten what were his name. So the year after this Ted Smith come out you know did Ted. Aye, well I lopped him by 69.
What year was that you got on the Council?
R-1937. I licked him wi’ 69 votes, we’d 600 and odd each. In the North Ward that were.
What made you put up for the Council in the first place.
R-Well, in the first place in 1934 one of the Conservative Association let on me. Now, we want a candidate for this ward, how about it. Well, I said, I don’t know, I never thought about it like. So I didn’t bother and they got a candidate Aloysius sommat, he were a Catholic schoolmaster down at school. And they got him and he got in. Aloysius they called him, aye. Well, t’year after they were on to me again. I said Well I will do, and then it gets you you see, you feel you want to win. Anyway, Ted Smith licked me wi’ nine votes. It should have been me, if me workers had have done right it would have been me. I were determined I wouldn’t be dependent on them no more. Now t’Conservative women they wrote all me programmes out you see, they did well that way you see. But you see wi’ these here, so t’time after I got me own workers. Me brother, he ran a car and I’d a friend in’t Buffs [Buffaloes] and Mitchell at t’Stew Mill, he ran his [car] for me you see. Well, I got licked wi’24 wi’ Steele. They said Well you know Mr Brooks, Steele’s a solicitor you know and Fenton, the Town Clerk, isn’t a solicitor and he’ll be able to put him reight. But he never did, Town Clerk knew more than him about Local Government you understand me. Aye. But however, t’third time I’d some good lads you know, I didn’t depend on them, no, nobbut for sending me address out. No, me brother and them fetched ‘em in at night you know [to vote] and I were stood on that balcony just about half an hour before the poll was declared and t’Labour party had their committee room a bit lower and they were coming up wi’ their tables you know. I says Have you finished? Aye. Well who’s these coming in now then? They said they’d finished and getten all their votes in. Well, I said, Whose is these that’s coming in? They were coming in for me. Aye, well I licked him he were president of the labour Party.
What did you do when you got in Billy. Did you have any hobby horses when you were on the Council?
R-Well you see, I’d been president of the flower show and I’d been a big gardener and they put me chairman of the Parks Department. Letcliffe Park you know. I have the handbooks upstairs still. I were chairman of Parks Department and that year I left I should have been Chairman of the Council.
And apart from the council work did you do anything with the Conservative Association. Were you a member of the Conservative Party?
R-No, no I didn’t, I hadn’t really the time. I were taping and then I were going up there every night [to council meetings] I had the record for attendances. Did you ever know Edgar Wild?
Yes.
R-Well, Edgar were about two meetings less than me, he were trying to beat me and I beat him. Aye, Edgar Wild, I have the papers upstairs. Aye, I have every meeting, I never missed one. And there were a lot of meetings in them days that there isn’t now owing to gas works department and th’electricity department and th’hospital. I’d been to a meeting every night one week, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday and me wife says You want to get another one for tonight and then you’ll have been there all week! And by gum, an agenda landed that morning and I had one at Friday. It were hard work and I had a big garden and a big greenhouse an all at the time. I don’t know how I got through it but I did, aye.
Was the town any better run then than it is now would you say?
R-Well of course, it’s bigger now and the bigger you get a thing and the more unwieldy it becomes. You see in some ways it’s worse and in others it’s better. I couldn’t find a fault wi’ Pendle meself. Folks keeps sniping at ‘em but you know they’ve done a lot of good things in Barlick. They’ve fettled some streets up here and Barlick Council couldn’t afford to do it. We were flayed to death of the rate going up thruppence you know. If t’rate went up, County ‘ud put their precept in and you’ve to cover all that and you’ve to have a bit for yourself. Well, if the rate went up you’d get sacked at the next election in them days you know. But I were broad-minded, it didn’t matter what it were, it were all right wi’ me. Politics to me meant nothing. I can’t for the life of me see what politics has got to do with local government. I remember ‘em starting to bring all that lot in and it’s all to get power.
What do you mean Billy when you say you remember ‘em bringing all that in?
R-Well, when they first started putting candidates up. I can remember the time when there were nobbut four Labour members in the Hoses of Parliament, John Burns, Kier Hardie…..
Do you mean to tell me that at one time the people who were running Barlick, there were no party politics connected wi’ it?
R-No there weren’t at that time, they were all what you might call Independents. There were John James Shutt, farmer and Fred Harry Slater, Old Harry Slater at Clough Mill. All them you know. And then the Co-op started it off, by putting their secretary up. Robinson Brooks were beaten wi’ five votes by the co-operative secretary. Well, Robinson didn’t bother wi’ it no more. He didn’t like the thoughts of being beaten like that and so he dropped out. Well, if I studied I could tell you they were all businessmen. They were, happen a builder, I could like picture them now. Fred Harry Slater, he were one of the sons at Clough Mill and he were captain of Barlick cricket team. Well you know, Fred Harry weren’t much of a cricketer but you see in them days, the manufacturers had a lot of prestige in Barlick you see. They don’t bother today but they were considered to be a different class. Of course today they don’t bother the same. But you see Fred Harry got put up as captain more because of his family you see. It were drawing power for the public if you had men of….. as presidents in them societies in them days. If they were manufacturers, well they looked up to them you know. Aye, but they don’t bother today you know. It were nice in them days, Fred Harry were a grand chap, aye he were, you could talk to ‘em. You could reason wi’ ‘em a lot better, you can reason wi’ these money men better than you can wi’ your own lot, them’s your enemies! There’s nobody a bigger enemy to the working man than the working man his self you know.
Yes, I can see that Billy. So you think it was a backward step to introduce politics into local government?
R-Well, what point were there? They all pay their rates according to the style they lives. If you’ve a big house you’ve got to pay more. Well, what point was there. Same as government is now, those on social security doing nowt. See, you can’t start giving brass away because it’s the ratepayer’s brass, you had to give an account of it. Well what difference is there wi’ being a socialist or anybody else. He’s in the same boat, he’s rowing in the same boat. So what is there? I can’t see. Some folk can see but I can’t, I never could. It didn’t make that much difference to me didn’t politics. I even helped one of the Labour chaps to be chairman once. He come to see me in the tape hoil at Calf Hall, wanted to know if I’d vote for him, he says It’s my due to be chairman. Well, I says, If you’re due to be chairman I’ll give you my vote. He come up on purpose. He were one of the executive of the Labour Party and I voted for him because he were entitled to it. That were my attitude, I didn’t care. Lots might have, that’s politically minded, have said Bugger him, no, he’s a Socialist. I looked at it this way, it were his turn to be Chairman. No, Fred Steele and I were allus friends like. When I put my resignation letter in that night when I were going to Blackpool, he were the first one to stand up and give me a compliment, he says Well, I can’t pay Mr Brooks a bigger compliment than what I’m going to do, he’s a perfect gentleman.
SCG/Sunday, 25 March 2001
5109 words.