THIS TAPE HAS BEEN RECORDED ON THE 13th of SEPTEMBER 1978 AT 17 CORNMILL TERRACE, BARNOLDSWICK. THE INFORMANT IS BILLY BROOKS AND THE INTERVIEWER IS STANLEY GRAHAM.
[The first five minutes of this tape is an exchange between Billy and SCG about SCG being late.]
I’m more lively you see. I get out you know. Like last night, I set off about seven and had a good walk round by Long Ing you know and all round there and I finished up at me sisters. Aye, I’d a good hour and a half’s walk out, looking round th’old do at Long Ing where I used to work you know, when I were a lad, aye. Canal bank side there you know, aye. Where you go down to Ouzledale Foundry you know. I went down there and looked at th’old door where we used to go in and out and all that carry on. We used to get us breakfast you know at t’canal side there, fine weather you know, on th’old wharf. There weren’t a soul about only me, not a soul.
I were talking to a bloke the other day about you Billy, he’s the feller that’s been teaching me history at night school and I asked him what questions he’d like to ask you. He gave me two questions, so here they are. Is that pipe empty Billy?
R-Aye, it doesn’t matter, it’s all reight.
No, here, it’s reight, I’ve got plenty of tobacco, don’t think that’s all I’ve got Billy, there’s plenty.
R-Aye, that’s it.
Aye, good lad. Now cast your mind back again to the Boer War, the African War.
R-Yes.
When the Boer War started did you understand what had caused it?
R-Yes.
Right, you tell me.
R-Aye well, you see old Paul Kruger were president you see and they wouldn’t allow anyone that went into the country to have a vote and we demanded that. Chamberlain, Joe Chamberlain were Prime Minister at that time and he demanded that they should have a vote. It looked a simple thing didn’t it but that’s what it were all about. And he [Kruger] wouldn’t allow them to have a vote in the country at all. So of course Chamberlain said Well, if you don’t allow that, what’s going to happen? So he declared war on ‘em you see. And so he were sacked were old Paul Kruger you know, aye. But that’s what it was, you might think it’s a simple do today but it were so, aye. Aye that’s what they did, aye. Of course it were, like we were colonising in them days you know, we were getting all they could you know. Old Joe Stalin said It’s a funny thing, he says a little island like England and he says they own all this red on the map, you know India and all that, aye, that’s what he said, aye. Well you know, they sent Redvers-Buller out and of course he were a failure were Redvers, he were one of the old stamp and of course these Boers were sniping at ‘em you know. They knew how to do to get ‘em, to do a bit of this bush fighting job you know and they knew all the ground and things were going worse way with us. So they sent Lord Roberts out, little fiery, wi’ a white moustache, Lord Roberts a right little fiery chap, they sent him out aye. And of course they eventually owercame them you know and occupied t’country, aye. They get to Pretoria, the capital you know. And General Smuts were one that were fighting again us and another or two, I can’t just get their names now and Smuts became a friend of ours at t’finish. He were president, Prime minister you know and he were like a friend to this country in’t finish. We had a good Governor General there at the time, I’ve just forgotten t’names on ‘em an all now. We had a Governor general and of course they had a parliament of their own you see. But they were under our supervision you know, they were one of our colonies you see. And smuts were a great friend of ours in the finish, and he were an enemy that were leading these Boers at one time. But there were another, I can’t just get it, there were two or three on ‘em good generals, they were all reight for their type of fighting you know. But ours were the old do, they called our soldiers Rui-necks, they were red necks you know. They called the British soldiers Rui-necks because they had, wi’ t’sun, they had red necks and red coats on. There were no khaki then, they were in red coats, th’old do you know. Fighting in th’open, aye. So they had a peace at Vereeninging or somewhere it were called. They had a peace talk there and of course it were all settled out and it were one of our colonies then you see. Until, I don’t know what year it were when they got their independence, no, I’ve forgotten now you know.
And the immigrants who hadn’t got the vote, did they get it after?
R-Oh well of course they had their own, old Paul was deposed you know so they settled down more our style then you see. I think that Lord Milner were in charge of there for some years. Lord Milner I’m nearly sure, aye.
Can you remember anything about, before the Boer war started, can you remember there were some people who were fairly sympathetic towards the Boers and they called them Pro-Boers.
R-Aye.
And Lloyd-George was…..
R-Aye well, t’Pro-Boers. Well t’Pro-Boers were them that were backing t’Boers up you see. They were sympathising wi’ the Boers, aye. They were sympathisers you see to the Boers. They were in th’opposition to Parliament at that time and of course th’opposition find fault wi’ everything you know. Pro-Boers, they were more friendly towards them than their own country you see.
What was the general attitude towards them? I mean, did the people that you knew, and yourself, did you think that we ought to go to war, you know, that we ought to go?
R-Well of course aye. Well we all fell into that sort of thing you know. We thought well, if they won’t give us equal rights when we go settling there like, you know, why not? It were simply Old Paul, th’old lad you know that were one o’t old school. Now you see there were that Jamieson Raid, Dr Jamieson were there you know and he had a raid and he were beat you know. It were a fiasco were that, aye. He were one of these here you know, th’old style you know. I’ll show ‘em, this that and the other, well he did it on his own you know. More or less did it on his own do you see, aye. Landed this country in a bit of a scrape did that, through that you know. It caused a lot of ill-feeling amongst the Boers did that. That led up to the war you know, that sort of thing that happened led up to the war. Th’old Kaiser you know, he were backing the Boers up in a way in his speeches. Chamberlain said sommat and t’Kaiser had like found fault wi’ what he said. Chamberlain says What I have said I have said. I withdraw nothing. Aye he telled the Kaiser that, aye. Now t’Kaiser said we were a nation of shopkeepers, th’old Kaiser, aye. He says England is a nation of shopkeepers, aye, that’s what he said.
Looking back Billy, do you think that the reasons we went to war with the Boers, do you think that they were good enough for going and having a war?
R-Well, to look at things now you think well, it isn’t worth going to war for in a way but you know at that time we were pioneering and colonising you know, we were. You might call us t’same as Russia’s doing today you see, they’re grabbing all they can you see. But of course we didn’t tyrannise ‘em the same as Russia does you know. Russia has ‘em all under the thumb. We didn’t do that, when we colonised. Folk said Well, it’s only so’s you can bleed ‘em like, but we did a lot of good in Africa. We got shut of a lot of them pests, mosquitoes and all that you know, but folks looses sight of that you see. You’ll hear a chap say, Oh, we’re nobbut plundering them and this that and the other you know. But now we’re paying millions to re-habitate the country, we’re paying millions out to them now, aye. To develop the country, aye.
When the Boer War was going on you’ll remember of course that we were the first to start using concentration camps, you know, getting all the enemy together behind barbed wire weren’t we, out there. Did you know anything about that while it were happening?
R-Aye well, there were a camp of that sort, but they had a lot of our prisoners in a camp and all at one time. I knew one chap, he were a Barlicker, in Pretoria. Aye they put ‘em behind bars, well things were settled you see. They took ‘em prisoner you know and put ‘e in this camp you know. But of course they were all released when t’peace were signed you know. We put a Governor General in there, Lord Milner I think it were at one time and it’s sailed on ever since you know.
But if you remember at the time, I can’t remember who said it, but in this country at the time it was described as ‘methods of barbarism’. You know there was trouble at that time in this country. I mean, I know that at one time Lloyd George was on to Chamberlain about it in Parliament. First of all he was asking him what the latest estimates of how many Boers there were because, I’ve forgotten the figures, but at one time Chamberlain said that there were 12,000 Boers and Lloyd George wanted to know how he accounted for the fact that we had 27,000 of them, either killed or wounded or else in the concentration camps. He wanted to know how many more there could be.
R-Aye well there were sommat o’t sort but after a while you know, the country settled down, they couldn’t let them out you know because they’d happen start again you see. They wanted t’country to get settled down you know in the democratic way we believe in you know.
And when the Boer War was over, and of course you went out there, you were on that hospital ship. When you came back did the African War alter your attitudes afterwards, you know, the Empire and colonisation and all Billy. Did it make you think about the empire and the reasons why we were out there and whether we should be there?
R-Well you know, at that time we were more Imperialistic than what we are today. We liked to beat everybody. [Billy now starts singing….] ‘Soldiers of the Queen me lads’ Aye, and all that sort of thing. There were more of that Jingoism then than what there is today. [Billy sings again…] ‘We proudly point to every one of England’s soldiers of the Queen’. That’s what we used to be singing at that time in the street, aye.
Oh, you sang it in the street?
R-We used to be singing that when they were sending any men away you know. They’d play ‘em to the station you see when they were going away, these ambulance men do you see. The band ‘ud play ‘em through the streets you know, to t’station and we used, we young ‘uns used to sing, hey lads, there you are! [Billy sings again…] ‘Soldiers of the Queen my lads’
You’re all reight Billy, you’re all reight! We’ll have a small pause now while we light us pipes!
R-We suffered a disaster at t’far end of the war at Colenso, battle of Colenso, aye. We lost a lot of men there, that do, aye we did. Now they sacked Buller then. I read an account of it but you know they were th’old type of officers in them days, you know where there were none of that there strategy fighting. It were all out in the open you see. Well you know, when you get there you know, they knew the ground you see did them Boer generals. They knew every nook and corner you see and they used to get out of sight and you couldn’t see ‘em. Aye.
Aye, I don’t suppose the British Army thought that was fair.
R-Well, simply that it was a bit strange to our troops you know were that sort of fighting.
Aye, it wouldn’t be cricket Billy.
R-You know the Kaiser called our army the ‘Contemptible Little Army’ ‘cause we were a naval power, you see, we had a small army. He said ‘The Contemptible Little Army’ did t’Kaiser, aye.
Aye, can you remember just before the First World war, can you remember the controversy about the Dreadnaughts? Can you remember the arguments about the Dreadnaughts and the reasons they gave why they had to build them. You remember the Dreadnaughts don’t you?
R-Oh aye. Well, we were the leading naval power in the world then you see. We were dependant on trade routes for us living and for us food do you see. If there were any danger of anybody cutting us off, we wanted power you see, so that’s why they built it up you see, but Germany were doing the same you know. Aye, and we got 15 inch guns aye. Now I think Churchill were the instigator of them 15 inch guns. Well, they’re all scrapped now are them, now they’re all these frigates and submarines and all that aye. The reason why America came into our war you know was Pearl Harbour. We had two modern battleships, new ‘uns, Prince of Wales and the Hercules. [Repulse?] and the Japanese came over with their aircraft and they sunk ‘em both and they were brand new, Prince of Wales and they all went down wi’ ‘em. Well they did t’same wi’ one of the American vessels, that’s what brought America in, aye. [Billy is of course talking about WWII when he mentions Pearl Harbour and the Prince of Wales and the repulse.] They were hanging fire were America, we were on us own. They made a big mistake sinking one of the Americans, and that brought them in like. Pearl Harbour, aye. Grand battleship were that there Prince of Wales, modern by God. Captain went down wi’ it, they all went down wi’ it aye. They come ower ‘em and they dropped bombs on, aye. I remember the schoolmaster telling us in class one morning he says England is the workshop of the world. And we were then, we were. He says ‘England is the workshop of the world’. Now that were about 1890, aye. Isaac Barrett were the school master, aye.
Aye, that’s it. You’d be eight years old wouldn’t you. What did they teach you then Billy about the Crimean War? Did they tell you anything about the Crimean War?
R-Well I forget you know. That were like a war that in Russia, wi’ part of Russia when th’army of ours went. Duke of Wellington and he had his guards lined up one morning and he looked at ‘em and he says Well, I don’t know what effect they’ll have on the enemy but by God, they frighten me.
Aye that’s it Billy.
R-They were a rough lot in them days you know. They were a rough lot.
I don’t know whether that were the Boer War.
R-It were t’Crimean War were that.
Is that when it were?
R-Aye. [We were both wrong. Wellington is reported as having said this on reviewing a draft of troops sent to him in Spain in 1809. Also attributed to George III.]
I’ve heard of that before. He says By God, they frighten me. Well, I think actually that Wellington were a fair feller. I think he must have been a good man, Wellington. Like a bloke once said to me, Any man who can invent the Wellington Boot must have been all right. Anyway, let’s see what Norman has on here [Norman Lowe’s two questions for Billy] When you were going to school, you went to what’s now Gisburn Road School didn’t you? No, no, you went to the Wesleyan School didn’t you.
R-Wesleyans, aye. There were t’Wesleyans and Church of England school. Church, aye.
Can you remember the Board Schools starting?
R-Board School?
Aye, when the Board Schools came in. That’d be before you were born. There’d be, Gisburn Road ‘ud be a Board School. When was Gisburn Road School built? Of course, Gisburn Road wasn’t built until later.
R-No, Board, Skipton Road, it weren’t built then. It would be built about 1902, sommat like that.
Aye, you’re going to be right there Billy, you are.
R-There were, you know where t’Pigeon Club is? Down Butts. That used to be a school. And then there were a woman, I’ve forgetten her name now, I were too young.
That’s it, that was the first [The National School used to be in the building down Butts.] That school down there originally, I think the church started that school, but that was a Board School. [wrong]
R-Well, you could be reight.
Yes, I’ve read about it somewhere Billy.
R-I think you’ll be reight.
[Then a short conversation about the time]
Can you remember what political party your father voted for? Who did your father support, were it Tories or Liberal?
R-He were a Liberal when I were a lad but then he turned ower and he finished up in the Conservative Party.
What made him change course Billy?
R-Well I don’t know, I don’t know what made him change at that time, I were nobbut young.
Well, just about the time when you were at school were when they were forming the Socialist Democratic Federation and the ILP.
R-You know at that time there were no Labour Party. There got to be four, and that’s all, John Burns, Kier Hardie and another two.
That’s it, and who did you vote for Billy?
R-Well. I didn’t get a vote while I were wed. They didn’t get a vote then you know unless you were a householder. You hadn’t a vote, you had to be a householder to be able to vote then.
And who did you vote for then Billy?
R-Well I voted Conservative.
Aye. And did you never think of voting Labour you know?
R-No.
Why not?
R-Well, like it’s a long story. I never fancied ‘em. They’ve landed us in some sorry messes wi’ cutting defences down and we’ve been landed into wars and we’ve nowt to feight ‘em wi’ through them. They’ve done it twice else three times. They’ve done it…. Two wars they’ve cut t’defence down and we hadn’t enough shells to fire at one time. We were in battle and we’d nobbut about ten shells. They could nobbut fire one every so often to make ‘em believe we had plenty and it’s through them and they’re on the same racket again. They’ve cut defence down and they’re at rock bottom. If there come to be a war now we should lose tens of thousands of men afore we were ready. It were t’same both wars. We lost thousands of men afore we were ready, we hadn’t the stuff. No. They’re friends of every country but their own. They’ll back every country but their own lot.
How about Fabians Billy?
R-Aye well, I never thought much about them. To tell you the truth I’d forgotten about them, it’s a long while since you know.
Aye, Shaw, Wells, Beatrice Webb. Do them strike any chords?
R-And Philip Snowden.
Oh, were Philip Snowden wi’ t’Fabians? Were he one o’t Fabians?
R-I believe he were, he lived just t’other side of Skipton.
Aye, he got to be t’Labour Chancellor did Snowden. The Iron Chancellor, aye.
R-When I went to school you know we paid fourpence a week, and it got down to a penny.
What were that for.
R-Ah, we had it to pay.
Oh, for school, that’s it.
R-For school aye. We had it to pay.
Now between 1906 and 1914 when the Liberals got in. You know Liberals got in with a big majority didn’t they in 1906.
R-Aye, William Clough. Billy Clough they called him, aye. He beat Roundell you know.
Oh I see, that were for the Skipton Division.
R-Aye.
Now when they got in, if you can remember, they started trying to put a lot of reforms through, you know, like pensions and what not.
R-What they called Liberal Reforms.
That’s it, what did you think of that?
R-Well of course I’ve forgotten a lot of what went on at that time you know.
Aye, it’s reight Billy, it doesn’t matter, it’s just to see……
R-You know, the Socialist Party, it’s grown out of the Liberal Party.
Yes, you’re quite right. Well, that’s one of the things you see, that a lot of people hold the opinion that one of the main reasons why the Liberals went on so …., did so much for the workers just then was that they were trying to steal the Labour Party’s fire. You know the few Labour men that had got in, there were what, about….
R-Bit I can’t see, life of me, what difference there is between them and the Conservative Party. I don’t know what difference there is.
You mean between Liberals and Conservatives?
R-Yes. I don’t see much difference. It’s only a question of, you know, making a bit of a do about sommat, that’s all. It’s all hypocrisy, aye.
Aye, I think a lot of people might believe it. Course you never were a great party man were you. You thought that, like in local politics. I mean that your opinion is that party politics should have been kept out of it, shouldn’t they, in local government.
Can you remember the Labour Exchanges starting?
R-Aye, about 1940 or something like that.
Ah, they had them before then Billy. They started ‘em before.
R-Well, they might have started a bit before. And then I know when I worked at Coates, in 1947 we’d no stamps then. No stamp cards or owt. [Billy is a bit off here, he left Coates in 1912 to go to Westfield]
No, wait a minute, in 1947 you were in Blackpool Billy.
R-Aye, I were, aye let’s see, it were 1943 when I went to Blackpool.
When were you working at Coates?
R-There were no stamp cards then.
Aye.
R-No but labour exchanges ‘ud be set up a year or two after that I think.
Can you ever remember a thing called the Osborne Judgement? About December 1909.
R-What were it?
The Osborne Judgement. It was a feller down in London took the union to court because he didn’t think, he was a Tory and he didn’t think the union should be taking money off him for the Labour Party.
R-Oh aye, you could contract out.
That’s it. So he took his union to court, can you remember that?
R-Aye I remember it now you’ve mentioned it. They allowed ‘em to contract out do you see. Well, I think it ‘ud be the Conservative party that brought that in, I think so, allowing ‘em to contract out.
Aye. Well actually it was a result of the court judgement.
R-Aye, it would be, yes.
Aye but you see the interesting thing about, I know, it’s a bit of an inquisition tonight, I know but I’m asking… I’ll tell you the reason why. The interesting thing is that, and this is something I’ve been on about it for a bit. If you read the history books about the times when you were alive and working, round about, between 1890 and say 1920, and if you’ll go to one of these historians and ask them what were the most important things that happened, they’ll come out with a long list of things like the Osborne judgement and the start of labour exchanges and old age pensions and workman’s compensation and things like that. Now the interesting thing is that if you talk to people like you who were actually alive then, and I mean they are intelligent people, these things never really made an impact on you. You don’t remember these things as clearly as you do, say, the strike at Long Ing Shed in 1899 or something like that. It’s very interesting that the things that the historians say are important things aren’t necessarily the things that were important to people like you who were working for a living, you understand what I mean?
R-Aye. Now of course in the 20’s we’ll say, at election time, we didn’t study reason or owt you know, we used to cheer owt what they said. It didn’t matter what it were we used to cheer like hell in’t meeting and we didn’t know what they’d said sometimes. [Laughter] We used to enjoy them dos, aye.
Aye, more of an entertainment eh?
R-You see, a lot of them things that you mentioned afore, wi’ us being young, we knew, we read about them but we weren’t interested enough.
That’s it, aye.
R-We didn’t bother about the result or what it ‘ud cause or owt. In fact we had no troubles, we were at home, and we were getting a penny in the shilling, you know, for pocket brass and we didn’t care no further.
Now I’ll tell you something I want to know particularly. Think again about what they called , what they always called The Great Lockout in 1911. It was when there was trouble over non-union labour and the owners locked the weavers out. Now what can you remember about that in 1911?
R-Well, I don’t remember them locking ‘em out but they come out on strike for that extra payment for local disadvantage that the manufacturers had been getting. They wanted that knocking off you see. They [the manufacturers] had paid them a bit less for local disadvantage wi’ being down a branch line.
So in Barlick at that time you can’t ever remember a time when the manufacturers shut the mills down and said, Right, we’re locking you out. They never locked ‘em out?
R-I don’t remember ‘em locking ‘em out, I don’t remember that.
No. Well, the funny thing is that nobody does. And yet that’s another thing you see, if you read what the historians say, they say that the Lancashire Cotton Industry was just about brought to a complete standstill. Now whether Barlick was an isolated case, I don’t know, but in Barlick, as far as I’m able to make out, all that happened was that they got in as many tramp weavers as they could and weavers that didn’t want to go on strike, that weren’t in’t union and they carried on as best they could and in the end the weavers had to go back.
R-Well you see, in Barlick the union, they hadn’t much brass so the northern Counties Textile Association took it ower you know and started paying folk that come into the town so much a week to keep out of the shed. What they called Loom Pay, it were naught but eight bob a week.
Aye, can you remember before the First World War Billy, aye, just at the beginning of the first World War, can you ever remember anybody being worried about depression in the industry, about the industry declining. Did anybody ever, was anyone worried about the industry going down?
R-Well, t’cotton trade were like this ever since I could tell. Even when it were at its peak, there were always periods of slump and it ‘ud get short time sometimes for a while. It just seemed to be that buyers were holding off you see. They weren’t buying, whether they’d got thereselves stocked up or what I don’t know but it ‘ud last a while and then there’d be a kind of rush and they’d get good prices, what they called good margins. You’d go on like that for happen a couple of years and then there’d happen be another easing off and sometimes it happened just afore Christmas and they weren’t buying do you see. That’s the way the cotton trade went on ever since I can tell, aye. It were up and down and up and down.
And after the first World War there were a boom for a year or two weren’t there.
R-Well you see the market of the world had got emptied and shelves were empty and you couldn’t make enough. And they were getting big margins you know, what they called profit margin you see, aye. Oh aye, there were a good run, aye there were, aye and when the war started they were all right [WWII] but of course they could only run so many looms do you see. And them that had looms running had to pay a levy and then when the war was over you know and things were settling down, you could apply to that there fund, at t’top o’t Butts, to the union. He had distribution of that pay, I’ve forgotten what they called it, aye.
And when the 1914 war started how serious did people , well, before it started up, when it were coming up, how seriously did people take it? Did they think that there was going to be a war?
R-Well, there were rumours about it you know. Then it got from one thing to another and folk were on tenterhooks you know. And all in the paper about what were going to happen, this that and the other and then it came as a bombshell you know. These young uns, they weren’t axing their parents, they were buggering off to the recruiting office and getting in, aye.
Can you remember people talking about the possibility of war before it happened. There a lot of stuff in the newspapers wasn’t there?
R-Oh yes, yes. I remember being in Ireland afore the second world war, we get in wi’ some Canadians and they said It sounds like there’s going to be a war. Aye they did.
Well Billy, it’s been hard work for you this week, with pushing you.
SCG/Wednesday, 04 April 2001
5154 words.