THIS TAPE HAS BEEN RECORDED ON AUGUST 18 1978 IN THE ENGINE HOUSE AT BANCROFT. THE INFORMANT IS ERNIE ROBERTS, TACKLER AND THE INTERVIEWER IS STANLEY GRAHAM.
Now then, when we finished last time you'd just got a job tackling at Moss, and you were learning tackling down there. And you'd moved from being one of the, one of the lowest of the low, the weavers, to be one of the aristocracy.
R. - There were many, …That's true. Aye.
Now, nowadays when we get a, say we get a learner in here to learn tackling – I’m talking about a young lad, obviously - first of all they have to learn to weave, which obviously wasn't needed in your case because you already were a weaver.
R- That’s true.
... And they start off doing a little here and there, and they gradually get them into tackling. They go to night school, learn all the theory and this that and the other. Now, was that how it happened in your case, or was it different, how did you learn your tackling?
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R- Did I tell you how 1 got this job at t’Moss? I did. Well, how did I learn my tackling. Well, I were weaving, and spare time learning to tackle. Two blokes, actually, were looking after me, and well, dinner times, evenings, Saturday mornings, any spare time. It's better now, if, if a lad came in here as an apprentice tackler he'd be an apprentice tackler, he wouldn't be weaving. He’d be working with the tacklers all the time. But in my case it were like .. weaving and apprentice tackling. These two fellows, if they had a job that were a bit ... I mean, tackling is mostly, is common sense, and when you'd been a weaver a few years you, if you are interested you get to know like how it, how it works you know different things, but there’s certain jobs that you would never pick up as a weaver. Like timing the pick, and fitting wheels and shafts, and things like that, making keys, it all takes time.
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And there’s like dodges that you learn, and well time went on and things were going all right, and I were in a happier position financially, and it had a bit of prestige value, like you know: 'That's Roberts coming for a pint, tackler’ and everybody spit in the spittoons. I had six months like that. There were two mills at Widdups, number one and number two, and I were in number two mill. And I was, one morning I was smothered in a cold, I could hardly breath, and me bloody chest were bad, bad head ache. I thought "I'll have to go home.” Oh, I felt really poorly. And this manager, Archy Rhodes come into the mill, he said "John Widdup wants you." "Eh I thought, what the hell does he want me for?" So I went into the warehouse and he were there was John Widdup. "Now then Ernest” he says, “Jack Halstead’s gone home poorly. I want you to go on his set”. Christ Almighty I thought, disaster, on me own, hundred looms. Anyway I thought, it's muck or nettles and funnily enough I
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felt better, me flu must have flew away. So I went and ... went to this bench, spotlessly clean, bags of leather and that hung up you know and tools on the
bench. I had a waistcoat, we wore waistcoats in them days, with pockets
in. So I donned that and stood beside the bench waiting for the first job. And funny enough I remember the first job I had on me own; a weaver come and said "Weft’s catching at t'side." See? I thought right. So I waited while she got back to her looms and then I went down. But for a few days it were hell for leather, they were testing me, see? And if I made a mistake they’d grin and laugh and sneer. I made one or two mistakes. Anyway, that were only after six months you know, so I weren't doing so bad, and there were an old tackler there, old Joe Askham, he were seventy odd years old, and if I got
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stuck I used to go and ask him. Very kind he were, he told me what to do, and he learned me one or two little tricks that, that only we know ... you think, you like to think that way you know, little dodges. And .. well I heard that this Jack Halstead had to retire, he’d sommat gone wrong with his ticker and he’d to finish work. Well - I thought - then I might have this set like. You know? Anyway, I used to go home for me dinner, lunch, I went home one dinner time and come back to work, mill started and I went into the mill, went to the bench … it were like mother Hubbard’s bloody cupboard, every tool had gone. Now this Jack Halstead had come down, and gathered all his tools up. When a tackler retired he used to say he'd sell his tools to you. He didn't need them. Anyway, he took every bloody tool away. I thought "Well, that's a bugger." So I walked out of the shed and ... John Widdup. “What’s to do Ernest - he said - you look very pensive and upset." I says, “Halstead’s been down and taken every tool." He says "What do you need." "Oh I need certain things, Like I can
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borrow drifts and things like that but I need files and leather cutters and punches and one thing and another." He says "Take this note to McGregor, and get what you want.” “Oh” I say, “I can't pay, not all at once.” He said "Don't bother about paying." And that firm are considered to be mean. And he sent me up to McGregor’s and I could get anything I needed. Well I just got what I needed, that's all, I didn't like .. kill the goose that laid the golden eggs. And I thought “Well he were a real bloody gentleman with me." And I never paid for them tools. I did mention it one time and he
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says “Oh, forget it” because at that time they were making a lot of money you know, manufacturers. Still, that's beside the point, I didn't care how much money he made, they were paying me and things were going along smoothly.
How much were you getting about, then, from a set of a hundred looms, roughly.
R – Oh, thirteen quid about.
That would be a good wage.
R - It were a good wage, they've always had decent wages, tacklers,
There's two little things, they've just cropped up there, if I don’t ask you now I’ll forget. You mentioned, you said when you were in the pub, mentioned about spittoons, did they still have spittoons in pubs?
R - Uh aye, same as, I used to go in t’Seven Stars and they'd spittoons up to a few years since.
Aye.
R- They had two daughters there, you know, Peggy and Greta, and Peggy told me herself, she didn't mind the life she said the worst job were cleaning the spittoons out.
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Aye .. Now, wait a minute, Seven Stars, would Airton have that then?
R - No. No. Airton came after, he came after Robinson, Preston Robinson it were.
1 was just wondering because 1 used to know Gladys well. Wait a minute, that's beside the point. Another thing, I want to bring this in now in case we forget it later on; you were on about changing wheels. Now .. oh first of all, you tell me what you have to change wheels for on a loom. You know, gear wheels.
R – Aye, well pick wheels. Well you change them for quality of cloth, but I didn't really mean pick wheels, I meant driving wheels. You know, big wheels.
Oh aye, yes that's it, aye, the bull wheel at the end yes. Because I remember you once telling me something, and as I say I want to bring this in now and then we don't forget it. Most pick wheels on the motion, at the side, here, have the numbers cast into them in the web.
R – That’s right.
And you can just look at the side of a loom and you can see what number of wheel's on there. And that wheel is also, those wheels are marked down on the warp card aren't they, on the progress card that's with the warp.
R - Yes.
Now, you once mentioned something to me, and I've seen them, pick wheels that didn't have the number on the web, they were cast on, they were punched on the boss, inside. Now, you tell me about that.
R – Aye, that's right. Well, what do you want to know about it.
Well…
R – With numbers on. Well, in fact I've seen pick wheels with no number on at all, you’d to count them, count the teeth. See?
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Yes. Now, I remember when you were telling me about that you said that if … you laughed and you winked at me and you said “If the number’s on the boss, the weaver can't see it.”
R - Oh aye. Oh well, that’s true, I remember saying that, but whatever number’s on that wheel, that's the number of picks per inch.
Aye. And I mean, would it be possible, if somebody really wanted to twist a weaver, if they had a wheel where the numbers didn’t show, could they have the weaver actually doing more picks to the inch than they thought they were? I mean I’m talking about ... it wouldn’t matter nowadays, because they get paid on the pick, but in the old days, It altered t’price of a cloth when they were getting paid on the piece, wouldn’t it?
R – Oh aye, but t’weavers were crafty enough to know that. They knew how long it took to weave a certain type of cloth.
Aye, that's it, aye.
R - And in any case, merchants knew what type of cloth they were buying. If they bought cloth, say, fifty pick to the inch, and it only had forty-eight, they'd want to know why. Well, In fact they'd send it back.
Yes. And yet there were such things as bastard reeds, 1 know that isn’t picks, that's number of ends in. [a warp]
R – Aye, well, that doesn’t show like.
But that's something you know, 1 remember you once saying something to me, that was another thing that I wanted to bring in, you were saying that Widdups were supposed to be mean like, you know? But .. I've forgotten now, I don't know whether it was you or somebody else once told me that, as far as they knew, Widdups never used bastard reeds.
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R - I don’t think they did. They guaranteed all their cloth, and they were, as far as I was concerned they were, they were honest dealers, all the family, they must have been. Because all depressions running, they could sell their cloth
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At that time at Moss, when we're talking about, was there anybody else in the Moss besides Widdup?
R – Yes, there were .. what they called E1lerbank [This might be an error, it could be Alderton Brothers Ellerbank were weaving in Wellhouse in 1941. They were in Moss Shed in 1957 with 111 looms.] next door, that were a manufacturing company.
Ellerbank Manufacturing. That's it, yes I've got it yes.
R - And next door to them Horsfields I think there were.
Aye, J&M Horsfield.
R – Aye, and then B1ackburn Holden’s.
Aye, so they’re Blackburn Holden’s that's there.
R - That's it, aye.
… Bendem now.
R - Aye. They were part of t'fiddle when this silly bloody government scheme, well I think it were silly. When they were contracting the industry for some reason.
Aye, oh aye, we'll get on to that about contracting the industry, you see. You told me you thought that there weren't much more you could do but ... we've a lot to do yet. When ... you said that you were working in number two shed, and then you were sent into number one shed, were you still on Widdup's looms?
R – Oh, they'd two mills, they'd two sheds.
Yes, what I'm getting at is that, even though Widdup were letting room and power, their tacklers were just tackling on their looms, and not the other people’s.
R - Oh they were like departments on their own these two mills. There were a wall between, but they were both Widdups. And then dividing Widdup's from E1lerbank were a wall. They were walls funny enough, but I’ve known boards in mills, just like partitions.
Yes, easily taken out, aye. How many looms did they have in there, Widdups, at that time?
R – There’d be roughly six hundred in each shop. [432 according to trade directory.]
And, we are talking now about, what, nineteen-forty-six, seven?
R – No, forty-seven, aye, forty-seven.
Forty-seven, yes. Anyway, I've interrupted you there. So you are on this set you've got these tools. Did you actually get that set of Halstead’s?
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R-Yes, and I were on that set eleven years.
Ah, so we are coming up to the scrapping scheme then.
R- Well, we're coming to scrapping now.
Yes. So tell me what happened at Moss. You were, you were on them sets, tell me what happened when they started to go down, when they first started to realise that things weren't just ...
R – Well, it were like, well I mean, it were like a bolt from the blue, just a notice on the door "Owing to …" Ah well, I don't know the exact wording, but it were a government scheme. A manufacturer that went out of business got sixty pounds for a loom that was producing and forty pounds, for one that weren't, also the scrap value. So with their twelve hundred looms they were going to come out with a lot of money, weren't they. But anyway, it were sorry day. And t’same day Roger, the son, came to me and said, would I stop to the end, because it were the bloody end. Aye I said and when I leave here I'm chucking my bloody tools in the canal. I've finished with textiles. That were t’way I were thinking then, I were that bloody disappointed. It was as bad as going in t’army because I were really happy there.
Were they in full production?
R – Well, all t'looms weren’t full up but they were in full production as far as it’d go, you know. They’d have six hundred running. And anyway it started running down then. First to finish were the taper, and then well, one by one all these .. there were like a preparation department, they
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all finished, until it came that there were no, the only production, the only
warps in the mill were in the looms you see? And there were .. well, there’d be six tacklers to start with, and gradually we got down to five, four, three, two, and then McNabs. Because what we had to do was move, as a weaver finished she might have one or two looms still with warps in, you know, so we moved them warps into another weavers [looms] until finally there were just me left with one loom. And .. I were weaving, running this loom you know, to weave it out, and I finally got t’mark coming in and I went for the manager, Cecil, he were still there, there were me and him, last. So I went for him. I said "Come on Cecil, you can put the last shuttle in for John Widdup & Sons.” “Aye, all right lad" he says. So he followed me into t’mill and put this shuttle in, and started the loom up and it wove this .. about a foot of cloth. I says "That's it," And there were bloody tears running off his chin end, it were his life coming to an end, he were .. you know, heart broken. He said “I never thought this would happen.” I says "Ah well, it's bloody well happened, we're both in t’shit." So that were it. And I come out with .. about hundred pound, redundancy. But I didn't, 1 didn't throw me tackle in t’canal. I thought I’d .. you never know, I might need ‘em again. No …
Cecil wove that off, and he finished. Now, I know that there is a little tale about Cecil that goes with that.
R – Where?
About going for a rise.
R - Oh aye. Oh that'll be a few years before then, before it happened you know. His wife told me, his wife used to go round with the tea. Now, that
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were an innovation, going round with tea, see, but they were up to, trying to make things attractive to get weavers, they were worth their weight in gold. And Cecil decided to go in for a rise. So he had it to go in front of the tribunal.
The tribunal being old John and three brothers. Aye.[No, just the three brothers.]
R - Bosses. Aye, bosses. And after giving him a good talking to, and a pep talk I suppose, they gave him a shilling a week, and on his way out they said "And don't come again." A shilling a week to the manager.
And that fellow, and that fellow were crying as he wove….
R - Yes.
It's understandable, we keep laughing but ...
It - Oh yes, yes, he were crying. Yes he were heart broken. Oh he’s still living, he’s knocking on now .. talking to him t’other week, telling me about a prostate gland operation.
Everything removed ... !
R – No, I think they must have left a bit in, because he had tubes in him, and it were going into a bottle were this tube. I couldn’t get bloody rid of him. I could hardly walk when I did walk away, I had pains all over. He says "This liquid looked like .. " Oh, he said sommat went wrong, he says, and he were watching this liquid dripping into the bottle, and he says "First it were amber coloured ..he says - and it finished up, like Guinness he says – “so I shouted for t’nurse." And he were in hospital a few weeks, he must have got some infection he said. Anyway he’s all right now. He’s, Hee Hee, he says "If ever you want to have that operation, don't be frightened."
Well, that were what we told poor old Sidney when he went for his cataract.
R- Ah, Sidney, aye.
1 had him convinced that there were nothing to it. I said “Me dad's been." And me dad had told me, it were t’worst bloody thing ever happened to him. But I got Sidney convinced before he went. Anyway, when he come back he said "You and your dad." Oh it were, I went to visit him, that were it. "Ah - he says you and your dad - he says." I said "Well - I said - what the bloody hell did you want me to tell you before you went?" Aye, anyway, there you are, we are digressing again. Now, when Widdup's wove out, was anybody else left weaving there, or had all the others finished as well?
R - They were all finishing.
And …
R - But now, here comes the fiddle. Blackburn Holden's finished, but they've opened another shop up and called it Bendem, and that were going on all over bloody Lancashire. Later when we, you know, we read about it and heard about it
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Aye that……Different firm.
R – Yes, shut down and opened next door.
And about the looms? Because those looms are supposed to be broken up.
R - They were all broken up, them looms were smashed up, they were, they were smashed up just where they stood. But first of all these breakers came in and broke the looms, and .. Cooper’s Loom makers traveller came in. I were friendly with him, I'd known him a long while. He says “Well, this in another shop going to the dogs.” I said Aye." He says "Can I go in and have a look?” I says “Aye, go on, I’ll come with thee." So we walked into the mill, and he says, “That won't do." Now, all they’d done was break t’cross rails and t’loom. just come in, you know, leaning on the shafts. I said "Well, how dost a mean that won't do?” He says "They can weld them buggers together again." And he must have seen some official .. following day these loom breakers were there again, instead of using a bloody pound hammer they were using ten pound hammers, and they smashed them up, they smashed them to smithereens that time.
Who were doing that, were it Rushworths?
R – I don't know.
No. Aye, because of course that’d be a right fiddle, wouldn't it. You smash the cross rails, drop 'em, and the only .. well I mean, even if you didn't weld them up all you needed were new cross rails for them looms, and they could go for export.
R - It were done though, it were done, it were done at Earby. They welded the cross rails up.
You actually know about that?
R – Well, Fred knows, Fred Inman told me. It were the biggest bloody fiddle since that South Sea Bubble!! Were it the South Sea Bubble?
That's it, the South Sea Bubble, aye, that’s right, there you are you see. Aye…..
R - Milking the government, and the silly buggers didn’t, they couldn’t, I mean it's still going one, they're getting milked every day.
And so the engine'd still be running?
R – Aye, it were running, aye.
Yes, because .. who were the last to weave out, do you know? Were it
Widdups that was t'last ...
R - I think it .. aye, it'd be Widdups I think.
So, engine'd stop then. So you didn't bob down to the engine house to watch t’engine stop, or you just stopped it, or …
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R - No, I didn't. I were, I think I were a bit .. you know, upset. Though
I were friendly with Fisher, it were Fisher. Fisher'd be t’driver then.
Aye, would that be Walter or his dad? His dad.
R - His dad.
Yes. What was his first name?
R - Stanley.
Stanley, that's it, Stanley Fisher.
R - He used to let me start it, occasionally. I used to go in and camp him.
Aye, it were a great engine that.
R- Aye, it were.
I've to get on to Newton, I have to do that yet with Newton, but that was a very good engine at Moss.
R - He used to put engines in, you know, did Stanley. He told me some interesting stories about travelling about putting engines in.
'Who were he working for? Burnley……….[Ironworks]
R - I don't know.
Burnley Ironworks I think it were.
R - Possibly.
Yes. I have an idea he did work for Burnley Ironworks. I think I've heard Newton mention it.
R - But all t’years I were at Moss that engine never stopped, not during working hours.
Yes, it's a fine record. I've stopped twice.
R – Well, I don't remember it stopping twice.
Yes, I've stopped once for a hot bearing and once when that rope went, do you remember that rope went up on the cloth looking machines that day?
R - Oh aye.
When Ernie, we’ll put that in on this tape. I were running one day and Ernie .. cloth looker Ernie, I can never remember …Ernie Whittaker!
R - Whittaker.
Ernie Whittaker come down. He says “Can you come up here and have a look
at this?" And I walked out of t’engine house door, and I couldn't see up the warehouse, it were full of dust. I says "What the hell's going on?" He says “I think there's something wrong with that rope up at t’top." Anyway, I got half way up and I could see what were wrong. One strand of the rope had broken, and it were flogging round as it were flying round. As it flogged round it were knocking all the dust off t'topping and I could see what were going to happen, the end of that rope was going to flick on to something like a whip and wind round it, and it were going to keep going, and sommat were .. [going to go] and they were all stood round watching it. So of course I shouted to 'em to get out of the way and run back in here and stopped t’engine right sharp and then gone up, cut t’rope off and started up again so it
never bothered anything like, you know, tapes or owt. But ... that were one
time I know.
R - Did you stop that day we had t'fire?
No, that were a funny thing.
R – Eh, laugh, best laugh I've had for years. Buzzer were going, alarms, and I was sat in t’storeroom I think. It were going a long while when I walked into t’warehouse. and our Fred ..[Ernie’s brother who wove at Bancroft] I say "What’s up?" And he just put his hand up like that, and run into t’mill see? So I walked to the shed door
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and there's smoke, and Fred's covered with bloody foam, and there is only him fighting this fire, and .. he finished up with a teapot. Whittaker come with a teapot full of water. And ... well, I were laughing for days, like I said before, I’ve a perverted sense of humour. And Fred said to me, laughing in his presence you know, about this bloody fire and what a good fire fighter he were. "Aye - he says - next time I've a bloody fire - he says, I’ll go to t’office and tell 'em.”
The funny thing about that was, you know .. well I say the funny thing, really it just shows how silly people are, meself included, because that day .. when the fire alarm goes off in t’mill, if anybody breaks one of the glasses on the fire alarms in the mill, there is a bell in here rings as well. [In the engine house] As well as the siren going off there's a bell rings. Now, as you know, a cotton mill is a very dangerous place if there is a fire, it can flare up just like that ...
R- Oh yes, aye.
Now, when that fire alarm went that day, two things should have happened, every weaver should leave .. in an orderly fashion….
R- Aye, filed out.
Stopped their looms and filed towards the exit, and the engineer, in an orderly fashion should have stopped his engine and gone up to see what the trouble was. But what In fact happened, that bell went off, and I’m sat in the chair that your, where you are sitting, and I thought “Christ Almighty - I thought - some stupid bugger's put a bloody roller end through t’fire alarm." You know, through t’glass and broken the glass. I wandered up this side of the engine, got me screwdriver and t’key for t’glass got a glass and sauntered quietly up to the mill, you know. But it weren't until 1 walked into the shed and saw Billy Two Rivers stood there with a big hammer next to the stop button for t’engine that I realised that there was a fire. And he looked at me, he says "Shall I hit it?” I said “No!” I says - for Christ’s Sake, don't do that, we haven't got any glasses for them!" And everybody was still weaving in spite of the alarm going off. But by that time they’d put the fire out by the time I got to it. But, and I thought to myself after, I thought "Stanley - I thought how bloody stupid can you get?" It could have been a disaster you know?
R- Oh aye, I never found out how that fire happened. There were no mechanical failure on t’loom, no hot parts, it were a mystery. Must have been … Charlie, he is supposed to haunt Bancroft, Charlie Brown.
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Who's Charlie Brown?
R - He used to be a tackler here, comical character. Sometimes comes in the storeroom, sits up on t’top there. I told him about it. "Get back up there Charlie.” I’ll say.
Is that right?
R - Oh aye, I bet you if you come in t'storeroom next week and say "Where’s Charlie?” Somebody'll say "Oh, hasn’t been in today, he might… Oh he's up there."
Well, all the time I've been here I didn't know that.
R – Yes, sometimes there is lumps of bloody iron and all sorts come tumbling down.
Aye ., Well, he's never bothered me when I've been here at night.
R – No, well he doesn't know you, he knows me.
Anyway, so there we are, we are down at, we are down at Moss ... and they've
woven out. So, Ernest, with his hundred pound redundancy in his pockets is now one of the, one of the mass of unemployed.
R - Redundant.
Unemployed, well it's t’same thing.
R - Aye it is.
Same thing. And … one thing, just let's see what your thoughts are about this before we go on to the next job .. Have you any definite opinions about redundancy, redundancy money, redundant pay? One way or the other?
R - Oh, 1 don't think it's any good, not redundancy money.
Yes, why not?
R – Well, if you are up here in a job, I mean, what did that hundred pound represent to me? I'd be on about sixteen or seventeen pound a week then, roughly six weeks wages, that were no bloody good . Out of work, looking for another job, and there were a lot of tacklers out of work then you know. That were it for me, kaput, I had no friends and relations in, on the committee because that's a bloody racket, always has been.
What do you mean, a racket?
R- Well, take him that I call Woodpecker for example, Albert Thornber, he has two sons all three of them were tacklers, none of them ever out of the shop. Albert were on the bloody committee. And then after Albert came off the committee, Albert number two went on the committee. Oh, I've told him to his face, I'm not talking behind his back. And he wouldn't admit it of course, but it's true, without a doubt, it used to get me bloody mad.
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I suppose really though, that's human nature, isn’t it in a way. I know it’s, I know it's rotten if you're in that position .. but, I mean, it's human nature that.
R - It is human nature, you look after your own, aye. But it's bitter medicine when you're not in the circle.
Oh I'd .. I quite agree with you, you know, I'm just saying that that's you know, it's just .. it's human nature isn’t it.
R- Well, there were no tackling so .. I had to make fresh fields. I were living at Nelson at t’time, so ...
Were you living at Nelson while you were…
R - I were there while I were working at Widdups.
Aye .. 1 didn't, I didn't realise that.
R – Oh, a few years.
Whereabouts in Nelson?
R - Raikeshouse Road. And, I don't know how I got here, but I went to Cotton Tree and I learned to be a High Speed Beamer - I'm still in textiles - and .. I were up there a fair while. Funny enough I were, it were like in a cellar this high speed beaming department, and I were working one day, and a voice behind me says "Hello Ernest, how’s things?" And I turned round and it were Roger Widdup. He were, he got a job there as salesman, and we had a little chat like. Oh, but he were going to start hundred looms up. When Widdups closed down he came to me and asked me would I ever, would I work for him if he started this little mill up. I said “Aye, certainly I will." but it didn’t come off. And anyway, I'm high speed beaming now. Interesting job that, I were happy enough. And I were there .. couple of years.
It’d be about 1958 you went to Cotton Tree wouldn’t it?
R - Aye.
Forty-seven, eleven years ….
R – Aye, about 1958. And I think most of t'tacklers must have died off or sommat, but there were one or two jobs come to light. Oh, but in the meantime I'm going to night school.
Aye…..?
R - Wife said "Well, you like tackling, why don't you learn automatics?" And she persuaded me to go.
Where did you go?
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R - To Nelson Tech. And I learn, you know, the grounding. And I left high speed beaming and I went tackling to Langroyd .
When you say automatics, what were they, were they Northrops?
R – Northrops. But they were .. converted Lancashire looms. There had been about five hundred tacklers on this bloody set, nobody wanted it, that's why Ernest got it. And it, it nearly .. eh, talk about work .. centre weft forks, and you've to get under the looms you know to, to fix ‘em. I worked there about nine months, and I were under this loom one day, and I looked up and I thought .. with me arms up, you know, me bloody arms were aching, trying to get this set screw out, I thought “ Ernest, you are wrong in your bloody head." I was spending wore time on me back than a prostitute. I'm not joking, I used to go in on t’early shift at six o'clock and I'd be on me bloody back at five past, and somebody'd says "Shift's finishing ..” I'd get up after that then. Eh, I were absolutely knackered. And they called t’manager Mr Blackburn, so I went .. they had a storekeeper there .. good mill, still going, one of, one of, it's Courtaulds now. Well, it might have been then, 1 don't know if it were but ... it was a decent wage as well. And, well, I had some fun there. I'll tell you a little story about this centre weft fork job you know, they were that bloody worn out, nobody could mend them. Oh, before I'd decided to pack in, about a month before I went to Mr Blackburn, I said "I want to finish - I said I can't go on any longer" I said to him "I'm spending more bloody time on me back than a prostitute.” "Why, what's up?” he said. I says “These bloody centre weft forks." He says "There is a centre weft fork man coming on Monday." “Oh” I says – “that’s a rare do then. Oh, OK then” – I said. So off I went. And at Monday this fellow come, they called him Cyril, and he were a check tackler.
When you say he were, I’m sorry to interrupt you, when you say he was a check tackler, he didn't come from Czechoslovakia!
R - Oh no.
He was used to working on …
R - on making check cloth, aye. Check patterns.
That’s it, aye . Aye, that's it.
R - Circular box looms. And he were a nice fellow. But he'd to give, he had to give up tackling 'cause he couldn't grip, he got bloody arthritis in his hands. And .. we used to work together on these bloody centre weft forks you know and we worked, both of us working hard. And he says to me one day "Ernest - he says - I might as well have stopped [stayed. Kept on.] bloody tackling - he says - I'm working harder than ever." I says "Aye, I says - what about me on me own before?” And a day or two later he come to
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me and he said "There's two tacklers wanted at black Carr Mill” and they were
circular box looms. He says "Come with me, thee’ll do the donkeywork and I'll
do t’thinking.” I says “Aye, it's a good idea that Cyril” So, I were like anticipating this bluff, but it didn’t come up, his bloody fingers swelled up like balloons, it come to each hand. And he said “Oh, now I’ll have to pack everything in - he said – I’ll have to retire, I can't go on like this no longer." That were an opportunity missed. Anyway, that closed down not long after, Black Carr. So I'm back on me back and I went to this Mr Blackburn, I said .. Oh, I went to the storeroom first. I said to this Jim, they called him Jim, “have you a bit of paper and a pencil?" He says “ Art’a backing horses?" I said "No, I'm, I'm writing my bloody notice out" see? So, I wrote me notice out and I took it to Blackburn. I says "There you are" “Nay - he says -
leaving us?" I says “I bloody well am - I says - It's killing me - 1 says - if 1 don't get out they'll carry me out!” and it were, aye it were, I was thin as a bloody lath. So I packed that job in and I'd no job. Disaster again. So I had been out of work a day or two. I couldn’t sign on you know, but I were like, I had plenty of feelers out, looking for a job.
When you say you couldn't sign on, you couldn't sign on because you'd sacked yourself.
R - Oh aye, aye, I sacked meself.
How long did you have to do then, on t’dole, before you could sign on?
R – Well, six weeks.
Aye, six weeks, before you could draw anything.
R – Oh, I had to get a job before then, I had the bloody wife on me back. And .. I were reading t’pink, [evening paper, at that time it was printed on pink paper] I were getting t’pink every night, you know, looking at t’situations vacant .. and may be t’second or t’third night high speed beamer wanted at Smith & Nephew at Barrowford. [I think Ernie means Brierfield ] So 1 went and got this job, and .. I had been on sixteen pound a week at Bannister's at Trawden, on day work.
Tackling.
R – No, high speed beaming.
Oh aye, yes, yes.
R - That were like, high speed beaming, and then tackling at .. and then I’m out of work, and I'm getting this high speed beaming job at Brierfield. Brierfield .. Aye, Brierfield. "Start Monday night” see? So I reported at Monday night and this departmental manager's taking me down to the job, and we are walking down a long ramp, like, towards this beaming room. I says "Oh, by the way., how much is wage,?" "Twelve pound odd. Permanent nights.”
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So I … halt, and he looked at me this fellow. 1 says "Did I hear you right? Twelve pound odd?" “Yes - he says - that's the rate." I say “Well my bloody name isn't Aly Khan, I were born and bred in this country - I says - you've got hold of the wrong body - I says - Stuff it." and out I come. Twelve pound odd for permanent bloody nights, what a come down, I'm getting back to the pre-war days. So that were it, I’m still out of work, Where the hell did I go from there?
Oh, we've had a bit of a pause there, because Ernest Roberts, tackler, has forgotten where the bloody bell he were working in 1960. So sometime before next week no doubt he'll remember. Aye, there's about ten minutes left on this tape, so we are not going to waste it, we're just sitting here talking about man’s inhumanity to man. This bit can be edited out afterwards, yes, posterity can do what the hell it wants to about it. By next week you'll have remembered.
R - Oh yes.
You'll remember where you were and we can, we can get round to it. But it's just like we were saying, I tell the kids. I've always, told the kids the same you know … ever since .. oh, since they were old enough to listen. People laughed at me, many a time, I've always talked to the kids as if they are grown up.
R – Well, I think that's a good idea really, they can't know too much.
Well I think there's too many people talk to kids, and they talk to ‘em as children and kids aren't children, they're little grown ups.
R - Well they are, certainly.
They've as much brain as we have.
R – Aye, but I mean .. I don't remember my father, but I remember me mothers and I’ll remember her to the day I die. She used to talk to us as grown ups and when we did grow up and got into that adolescence stage, getting ponced up to go out, she told us, all three of us together, "If you get a girl in t’family way, you'll marry her, no matter who it is." Luckily there were only one of us did it, and it weren't me!
Aye ... well, it's t’same with the kids, I mean it's just like I've been saying.
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it's the same, I mean I have three daughters. I mean, there is Margaret going out tonight, she won't be in till two o'clock, but I don't worry.
R - Oh no, it's no use worrying.
Too late. If you've not reared them, if you've not reared them by the time they are sixteen, they're seventeen, it's a waste of bloody time, too late to start having sleepless nights. And you know, that's t’trouble with biggest part of them nowadays.
R - They're restricted may be, and then they, when they get, you know, out, they go wild, It does happen.
I'll tell you sommat, I’ll tell you something, people think, they think I'm a heartless bugger. I've always told them kids that when they get married they pay for their own wedding reception.
R - Oh, oh .. aye, well, I've never heard that before. Usually t’father pays for t’bride's wedding reception.
That's its but .. t’daughters .. I've always told them the same because
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when me and Vera got married, we had to pay for us own, and it meant that we could invite who we wanted.
R - Oh aye.
And I says to them, I say "Now, it's all right - you pay for your own. You can invite who the bloody hell you want” I said “If you don't want to invite me you've no need to do, and if you don't want to have a white wedding you've no need to have one." because everybody doesn't want one now, you know. They'd rather spend the money.
R - Oh they don't, no.
I can remember going and spending, we .. me and Vera went and bought ... I mean we did it all wrong, we went and bought a wedding dress together and bought it in Burnley, and t’bill come to twenty-one pound and one shilling. And they wouldn't knock me the bloody shilling off! And do you, now, it's still hanging in the wardrobe at home, and I look at it many a time, and I say 'Hell, Vera, you know, twenty-one pound one shilling.
R - twenty-one pound one shilling.
But they, though the thing about it is, I'm not so heartless, so I’ve always told them. until they leave homey they can have every bloody ha’penny they earn, I’ll keep them.
R - Aye you might. Aye, aye.
And they save up for themselves. And I reckon that that's a better way to do it, because that means that if you keep drumming it into their heads, by the time they get married they are used to looking after the money.
R - Aye ... Aye it's true that.
Think of the number of people that get wed and they've never handled money in their lives, they're bloody lost.
R - Well 1 can’t say I handled much money t’first time I were married.
I’d, I’d, well I got engaged, did I tell you about getting engaged?
No.
R - When George Wraw’s pawn shop were on Church Street? Me and Olive
were looking in t’window one night and there were a ring in there, a diamond
ring, forfeited pledge, thirty bob. "Let's get engaged" she says. Well, I happened to be carrying at the time, [Ernie means he had some money in his pocket] so I got this ring, thirty bob. It were a solitaire diamond, you could see it without one of them bloody watch glasses, and it fitted her and we came out of the shop and she put it on
and we went in Old Duke’s [Duke’s pie shop] to celebrate, with four pennorth of tater pie apiece. Well, that were our happy engagement party.
SCG/26 September 2002
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