THIS TAPE HAS BEEN RECORDED ON SEPTEMBER 22nd 1978 IN THE ENGINE HOUSE AT BANCROFT. THE INFORMANT IS ERNIE ROBERTS, TACKLER AND THE INTERVIEWER IS STANLEY GRAHAM.
And tonight we are going to look at the first set of, the first section of the set of tackler's pictures in the Bancroft Folio, and see what we can get out them. Right Ernie, first picture, you should have been ready at the first picture, shouldn't you? Yes. Now, the first picture is number 34,
R– yes …
Now then, where are you, where are you there, Ernie?.
R- Well, I'm in the Bancroft storeroom, a bit of a tip, a quiet moment, rolling a fag.
Yes, but now … you say ‘the Bancroft storeroom’. Now to most people, a storeroom is just a place where spares and things like that are stored, you know, but Bancroft storeroom, it's just a bit more than that really, isn't it?
R- 'Well, it’s a place where we reshape the world, we keep spare parts in there, and if a weaver wants a tackler, and he isn’t available in the mill, they come to t’storeroom.
That's it. So if you …
R- You usually will find him there,
Yes. So if you are not doing anything else, you'll be, you'll be sat in t’storeroom here.
R - Rolling a fag.
Or having a cup of tea, or discussing politics.
R – Aye. Oh, every subject.
Aye .. or Methodists.
R- Everything, aye.
Yes. Anybody looking at that’d think it looked a bit of a tip.
(50)
R- Well, lots of people come in there and say it is a tip, but it isn't really. I mean, we know where to look, if we want a spare part.
That's it. At one time all those shelves behind, they are numbered, at one time .. everything did hold just one thing didn’t it, every shelf did hold just one spare part.
R- That's right. It still applies .. to a point. Oh aye. Aye.
Oh, does it? Oh I'm sorry Ernie, I was under the impression it was…
R- We have an index up here.
That's it, yes, yes.
It – Aye, it still applies. But you may have to root a bit, like, but …
Aye. Aye, very good. Right, go on, turn over, next one. Now then, that’s ..you tell me, what's that a picture of?
R - Number 30. Well that's a picture of our bench, with the vices on, and various tools, and bits and pieces knocking about, and one or two notices, calendars cheesecake picture .. and if you can read that little notice at the top it says three and six a pound.
That's its aye. Aye, good lad.
R- And there's a box on there as well, that belongs to another tackler. We call them handbags, we carry tools around in it, you know?
Yes, that's it. Aye, but you don't use one do you?
R- No, I can’t use one.
Why not? Tell me why.
R- Because .. every time I go to the job I lose it, no handbag, Where the hell have I left it? I say "Bugger me", and I'm searching all over for it. I have to pack the job in. I carry my tools in my pockets.
(100)
Aye, that’s it. Now, I noticed that. That's one of the reasons why your tools are so nicely polished.
R- Aye. They are polished.
Aye. Did you find your scissors the other day?
R- Aye, they turned up, they usually turn up.
Aye, aye.
R - Nowt else. And then there is intercommunications up there, you can see.
Oh aye, ship to shore. With the alarm clock with its face to the wall, that always amuses me.
R- Aye, well, it doesn't work. Then we have a grease gun there, and one or two old shuttles, and a couple of shuttles up on the right hand side there, waiting to be collected. They have been repaired.
Yes, I’ve no.. they generally chalk the number on the shuttle when they
fetch it in, well, crayon it on.
R- Well, pencil or owt, owt that writes will do.
Aye, that's it. What's the usual thing that's wrong with the shuttle Ernie, when they fetch 'em in?
R – Well, inside the shuttle there's a peg you know, a pirn goes on, and there is a little wood peg fastens them in, and these wood pegs get badly worn, and t’peg either goes one side or the other. They must be somewhere near the
(5 min)
eye of the shuttle, when the weft's coming off, 'cause it comes off at a speed you know? If it's sideways or up or down, it just won't weave, it breaks. And then .. you put a new wood peg in, straighten the peg up, straighten the metal peg up, or put some fur in, or give it a good sandpapering.
Why is there fur in the shuttles Ernie?
R- It's like, it controls the weft, stops it ballooning and billowing out, if you’ve got weft that’s very lively.
Puts a brake on it, like …
R- That's it, that's it.
Yes, and what sort of fur is it?
R- Rabbit fur.
Always?
R- Not always, sometime we cadge a bit off the weavers. In fact at the moment we are using Persian lamb.
(150)
Who provided that?
R- Hilda Green .
Hilda Green. Well done Hilda!
R- I think it must have been a family heirloom.
I think, I saw it, aye, it could be …
R- Ahah, we had it, it's lovely fur, lovely aye.
It's a good piece of fur, aye.
R- And .. in reserve we have a fur hat. I forget who fetched that. One time when we had no fur see, they couldn’t afford to buy any fur .. so, there is all sorts of things going on for years and years and years .. outsiders don't know.
I mean, that's it, that's it.
R- I mean, they've been talking about fractions of a penny a yard, difference between profit and loss. But that's been going on, well, ever since there were weaving I reckon. About eighteen what? What was it? Eighteen forty or eighteen twenty?
No. Aye when t’first world .. well, eighteen fifty in Barlick, aye, eighteen forty-five in Barlick.
R- Aye, aye. And they've been crying poverty ever since, bosses.
Aye, aye. Oh we’ll have to try it this winter, and see what happens.
R- Aye, oh but it’s been, it’s been a great game. I’ve loved every minute. Is there owt else here interesting?
I'm just having a look Ernie, I think we've just about sucked the juice out of that one.
R - It's amazing really, when you look at it, just about, near t’top, at the right, there is a dart board. Oh…
No, dart board's behind you there, from where that picture's been taken.
R- No it isn’t.
Aye, there’s a dart board hung up there, but it's that old un.
R - Aye it is an old un.
Yes. The dart board that Roy uses is down…
R- Aye it's, that's right.
That's its aye. We should explain that we have one tackler who is a dab hand at darts, and the way he keeps in practice, he has a set of two darts, not three, but he practices on.
R- Two. And instead of rolling .. he doesn't smoke you see, his spare time’s spent darting and my time's spent rolling fags. Oh I think that'll do for … that's exhausted that bit.
Very good.
(200)
R- Eh, what a bloody tip isn't it! It's disgraceful you know, things have run down, it must have run down so, shocking it is.
When you look now, when you that at one time, under the old regime, you know, the old conditions, that place’d be spotlessly tidy wouldn’t it?
R- Oh yes, sparkling it’d be. Bench’d be clean and .. if you did any work you had to sweep it off and, the floor were clean, everything were clean, but I think it must have been over about thirty years that, run down.
Aye. Gradual deterioration.
R - That's it, because this firm's been shutting down for thirty years.
I've heard Fred Greenwood say that, but they put .. no not Fred Greenwood, what's that lad that has pigeons that walks up the road every night with a nice head of curly hair?
R - Oh aye, Harwood. Aye.
Aye. Now he used to work in t’twisting room didn't he.
R- Yes he did.
And he left when they put notice up in nineteen…, just after the war. Just after the war they put t’notice up and he thought held better get out and he went to Blin and Blins. And he said he's had about four jobs since, and Bancroft's been goings all t’time. Ah well ..
R- It’d be about nineteen fifty four or five, that would, I bet.
Aye, ‘cause…
R- Because they reckon that when this government scheme came out you know, shrinking the industry, but it's not shrinking, what they call that word?
Aye, contraction. That's it contraction.
R - Oh that's its aye. Contracting the industry,
I remember that, they've contracted you now.
R - I wonder if he is still living, that bastard ?
Who?
R - That invented that, this carry-on for textiles, contraction.
I don’t know.
R - And they squeezed us all out.
What would you do with him, Ernie?
R- I'd squeeze him.
Right.
R - Number 36.
That’s it.
R- Now, I'm upstairs in t’preparation department.
Yes, there's just one thing I should point out to you. Now, this picture, actually, follows on the pictures that I did of Jim looming, and the last
(250)
picture I did in the section on Jim looming was that warp lay on the floor there, waiting for the tackler to come up.
R- That's right.
So now you .. just tell me, without talking about that picture really, just tell me about the down board and system of deciding which warp belongs to which tackler.
R - Aye. Well, each loom has a number and when t’warp is finished, the weaver comes out and puts that number on the board. Well, tacklers know their own numbers, we have us own sections, and .. she'll come to t’tackler and say “warp out” see? So, .. she'll usually say the width as well. So then you go upstairs for the little truck, and if there is a warp there you get it and, …well, put it back in the loom.
Yes. But if, I mean, as we've often been in the last few years, there isn't a warp for that loom straight away, then it's a question of which is booked down first on the board in the warehouse isn't it?
R- Oh aye, That's right.
The first one that was brought down, .. if there is .. say there's three weavers waiting for forty inch warp. The first weaver to have, the first weaver who put her number on the board, because they are all put on in order, she gets that warp, doesn't she?
R - That's, that's right.
Yes, that's it. And if she stood with her loom with no warp in, what happens then?
R- She gets stopped time, she gets paid for that loom being stopped.
How much is stopped time, do you know?
R- Three and a half pence per hour. In fact in some cases they got more money for a stopped loom than a loom that's been running all week. I think it works out at about one pound forty for a stopped loom for a week. And some of the sorts we've had in, just a mediocre weaver would have a job to make that.
Yes. Well, that’s right.
R - A good weaver could make it.
(300)
Forty times three and a half pence is one pound forty. And so, even in this day and age, on the peak rate …there’s plenty of sorts in this mill at the moment that, it’d be a job to make one pound forty on a loom in a week.
R- Oh aye, aye.
Mind you. There is the time rate on top isn’t there. You know, there is what they call a time bonus on top isn't there.
R- Well, a good weaver, with ten looms running all week, and bonus, or it's like an attendance bonus. I don't know how much it is, twenty odd pounds. They’ll make about forty three pounds for forty hours.
That’s gross.
R – Hard, hard graft.
Yes, gross.
R- Aye.
Which means by the time these, because a lot of them are taxed as single women, with being married …
R- Well, all women, all women are taxed, I think, as single.
Yes, well, they’re ..that means that they'd be going out of the shed with happen thirty-seven, thirty-six quid.
R - Oh I don't, aye, somewhere about…
Yes. So in other words it's possible, in nineteen seventy eight, for a weaver to work bloody hard all week in that shed, forty hours, be here punctual in the morning and leave last thing at night, and still come out with less, a lot less, than a pound an hour.
R- Oh aye. Oh that, oh yes, definitely. That's general. A lot less than a pound an hour.
Yes. Yes, and if it's a mediocre weaver of course they ...
R- Oh well, peanuts.
Getting less. Aye. And you know what they say about peanuts don't you? If you pay peanuts you get monkeys.
R - True.
And that’s right. Anyway, the warp's been booked on the down board, Evidently you've got a weaver that wanted, that’s a forty inch isn’t? It’s one of them polyzones.
R - Yes it is.
You've got a weaver that wants a forty inch warp. So you go up and …
R – Yes, and I'm readying it.
Now, what are you actually doing there? I've seen you do this hundreds of times.
R – Well, on t’healds, through the heald staves, there is some hooks, and through them hooks you put band [String], and they have a running knot so that you can adjust them. And there's four staves, and this particular sort that band goes through two staves at each side, that's t’back staves and then two bands through the front staves.
(350)
Ah so, what did you call that? When you were telling me about weaving before, you said, you were telling me about .. that the back one always had to be slightly down to the front one ...
R - Slated.
Slated, that was it
R - Oh aye, aye.
So, so that heald, so those healds are slated when they're in [the loom] are they? On them?
R- Only when it's tied up in t’loom, it is slated.
(15 min)
Yes, that's what I mean, when you, that's it, yea.
R- Oh yes, aye, aye. They ...
So in other words, that could be woven, really, as a two stave, but weaving it as a four stave, slated, is actually a way of getting better cloth, is that right?
R- Aye, it's better cloth, it's always better cloth on four staves. But you couldn’t put that on two staves, you can only put one in a dent on two staves. You can't put two in a dent.
Ahh. And is that two?
R- This in two in a dent.
Aye, oh I didn’t know that. I didn't know that, yes. I know what you mean. In other words, on the reed, instead of there just being one thread through each dent or gap in the reed ...
R- That's right
There’s two through each one. And in some cases, [When he is looming the warp] Jim misses a dent, doesn’t he, with them. You know, he'll, he'll miss a dent in between on some of them. I've seen him do it.
R - Yes he does, and then he has to shove a dent out and squeeze it together.
Aye, yes.
R - But you get better, you get better cloth. You can't have two in a dent for two staves, you can only have one, but with four staves you can have one in a dent.
Yes, you can either have one in a dent or two in a dent.
R- or two, or four, or three, I've no .. Aye, we used to have some called .. I forget what they were called but they were three in a dent.
Aye, special sorts of cloth, yes.
R – Aye, Poppettes they called them.
Poppettes? Aye? I never heard of that.
R - Aye. Long before they had poppettes in America, dancing about with their arse bare.
Oh yes Ernie.. Oh aye, but there again I've never beard about that either you see!
R - Oh aye, have you seen .. I've seen them on the telly.
(400)
No, no none. Now then, you are upstairs in the .. you are upstairs in the warp preparation department as we rather grandly call it. Now then, that's a wood floor, well worn...
R – Yes, can you see them repairs?
Yes.
R- Factory inspector came and said "Fill them holes up because some poor bugger’s going to break their leg or sommat” and that's what they did.
And that's why there is that pathway in the floor, they are new boards. Well, what used to be new boards. But Jim cutting his healds on them hasn't done them much good has it? Cutting his healds down.
R- Aye that's right. No, his reeds.
His reeds rather, yes. And ... now wait a minute, what else can we pluck out of that picture? There is the pulley at the end there, you can see it's going round because it's blurred. That's carrying the cross drive from the engine shaft across on to the tape shaft, that's the end of the shaft which drives the tapes in the next room. And leaning up against the wall there is some sets of healds and reeds.
R- Aye it is. There is another. That's it, aye.
Yes. Now, those there that are leaning against the wall Ernie, are healds and reeds just as they've been cut out of the loom aren't they. And the end's are knotted up so that they can't slide back through the reed. Now, why are those brought up like that?
R- Well, the chap on the knotting machine gaits these healds and reeds up, they call it ‘gaiting up’, setting it up, you see in t’machine. And he ties knots on to a new beam so the healds and reeds can go back in the loom. [This can only be done if the warp and sort are the same. Our problem at Bancroft was small orders and the sorts were constantly changing. This made it difficult as the new sorts all had to be loomed by hand by Jim Pollard.]
That's it.
R- It isn't just one warp, one set of healds and reeds, I mean it's well, it could be, it depends on the weight of the yarn, you can have oh .. God knows how many.
Well the combinations are just about limitless aren't they?
R- Aye. Years ago, every time a set of healds went in t’mill there were a coloured mark put on, and when that set of healds had done a certain number of warps they'd scrap it.
Automatic? While what we do is collect healds off other people and use them for the next twenty year.
R – Aye, aye, second hand. Well, we use them in t’mill until they drop to pieces. Many a time we've to fetch a warp out [Before it is woven off.] because healds are done you see.
Which there again isn't helping loom efficiency.
R - Oh no, it’s inefficiency. But it's run down, it's a right bloody Cinderella shop this. Trouble is it’s twelve o'clock all t’time.
(450)
It's what?
R - Twelve o’clock all t’time.
Oh! That's it? You nearly lost me there, Ernie. Yes.
R- And then there is a truck parked there, you see? Some tackler’s come up for a warp and there isn't one ready so he left his truck there in readiness.
In readiness, on the starting grid. Aye, under starters orders.
Now then, 37.
R – Well, I'm making a bit of progress, warp's on t’truck and I'm wheeling it into the hoist to go downstairs to the weaving department.
Now, there is something there, have you ever worked in a mill where they haven't had to go upstairs and downstairs for warps?
R – Yes, I have.
(20 min)
And would you say that was an improvement?
R- Oh, a big improvement, everything on one floor, aye.
I often wondered why people always seem to have stuck to the idea that you have your warp preparation department and tapes upstairs, and you lift everything up there when it comes in and then everything goes down again. I mean, you know yourself, we get weft into the warehouse, Frank wheels it into the hoist, wheels it upstairs and then it all has to be wheeled downstairs again ...
R- That's right.
It always seems to me that it’d be more efficient if the winding machines
were in the shed.
R- Yes, it would.
And the tapes and the warp preparation were on the ground floor or the warehouse.
R- Oh aye. Well, I reckon modern factories are like that you know?
Aye ... but, obviously we are not.
R- Oh no. Far from being modern. Though I'd worked in a modern factory
too and they are not very happy places. Bell's ringing and ‘do this’ and 'do that' and ‘go there' and ‘come here' and it gets a bit monotonous. I've enjoyed working here I must say, with all its faults. ‘With all thy faults I love thee still.’
Oh!! Thank you very much Ernie! Right, 38.
R – Right, that 38, well, we are making progress. We’ve got down into t’mill. “There’s trouble at t'mill.” and I'm wheeling the warp down towards my weaver.
(500)
Yes well, now then, there's one or two questions about that Ernie, just to give you a chance to get some more mucky water off your chest, what's your opinion of the floor in the weaving shed?
R- Oh it's atrocious, bloody terrible it is. It's a wonder we don't all have double ruptures. I mean, many a time you get your little wheels in a nick, warp on t’floor, you have to lift it up, push your truck under, and you think to yourself, “Eh, I wish they'd get a fresh floor."
That's it. Well, you know, as I understand it, I once heard it said that when they built this shed there was a law suit over the flags
R- There were ...
Because they said they were the wrong flags when they built it. In fact you tell me, you know, we've never actually found it, but we know it's there, I think it's covered with tarmac now, but we've actually got
R- a gravestone in there.
Aye, that’s it, at the back of the …
R- Right down at t’bottom end, somewhere round there, right at t’bottom.
Yes, do you know, I'd love to find that, I've tried to ...
R – We’ll find it, we'll find it next week. Aye.
We'll find it, aye. Elva, remember Elva Martin that used to weave here, she always said that she learned to weave up at the back there, you know, in the old days, when it were bang up to the walls. She swore blind that it were haunted, they used to say it were haunted you know up there.
R - Oh aye, aye. I bet it is.
Of course. I'd forgotten you said it's haunted. Charlie Brown.
R - Charlie Brown. I’ve telled him many a time to get back ...
Aye, get back where?
R- That’s tempting providence. I don’t know, up or down. [Heaven or hell] Oh, he were all right were Charlie, I think he might have gone up.
And Charlie Brown was?
R- A tackler. Yes he died. They are all misshapes tacklers.
Is that right?
R- Oh, look at ‘em, look at me! Humps and bloody hollows, bent legs, bald head. Now then, number 39.
Ah, we are making progress now.
R- Oh, I'm just backing in ready to shove t’warp into the loom.
Yes. Now we should point out here I think, to the assembled multitudes, that actually I was very fortunate with this warp. Of course I had me head [Screwed on]
(25 min)
and waited while this warp was going in there. Like, normally there isn't all
this space on t'beam side of a set of looms.
R- Oh no ..
But the only reason that there is, in this case, is that this set of looms is one of the back sets of looms in the shed which borders on to the big space in the shed which isn’t used any more now because our shed's only got what, it's got about five hundred loom in when there is room for a thousand. And of those, there's about two hundred odd running, that's all.
(550)
R- Aye, yes.
So it means that we had plenty of room to do these pictures. So you've just landed with your polyzone warp, on the beam side of the loom.
R- Yes. And I'm going to shove it into t’back, like a big bobbin, it fits in t’back.
Yes, one thing I think to notice on that is .. if you look above the looms in this shed, in a modern shed you'll see a fairly clear space, because all the looms are driven from the floor by electric motors. But in our shed of course, you've got a forest of belts. Now .. tell me if there's any advantages to belt driven looms and any disadvantages.
R- Well, let me think. I think I prefer a belt driven loom, from a shafting up above. I've worked on both. I mean, I could be prejudiced, I mean .. running from an electric motor .. I don't know Stan. From a safety point of view electric motors are a lot better. I mean, every time we mount one of these belts we are at risk.
Well you are.
R- Tacklers have been known to go round there, and you only go round once!
Yes. When you say ‘Mount a belt', that's putting it on to the pulley while the shafting's running.
R- That’s right, aye.
And one slip up, hook's in your clothes and away.
R- That's it.
Especially in the old days when they used them old belt fasteners with hooks on. That would be a terrible thing, wouldn't it eh?
R- Well there were nowt else in the old days was there? They were all…
Them with the hooks, big clips and hooks. Aye. I have heard it said Ernie, that the atmosphere, the actual air in a shaft driven shed, is far lighter than it is in a motor driven shed.
R- It is.
I've heard that cited as one advantage of having shaft drive, it, your belts are keeping the air moving all the time and you haven't got that sort of oppressive atmosphere that you get off electricity …
R- No, because every motor gets heated up, and there’s a, .. what’s that smell that comes off them .. you don't get that ...
Yes, there is, isn't ...
R- And you get even weaving with a belt drive, instead of a V belt on an electric motor. I think it's better that way, the old fashioned way.
(600)
It is, it’s a fairly soft drive isn't it, because it slips on the pulley, it's not a positive drive.
R- Aye. That’s it. No.
Which a lot of people would say was a disadvantage because it means that you can't actually time your looms accurately, but .. I mean, really, it's whether you can get the cloth off, isn’t it? That's all that matters.
R- Oh aye. Aye.
Because I mean, you know yourself, you can walk down there and you can pass one fifty-six inch loom and it's going cadonk .. cadonk .. cadonk . And you walk past another and it's going cadonk,cadonk,cadonk. It all depends how the belt is.
R- Aye it is, and then it depends on the size of the pulley and all you know?
Aye that's it.
R- But there's none, you'll never, you'll never hear a tackler say 'Speed's an advantage.’ it is a big disadvantage. If you have a loom running on a steady one hundred and eighty picks a minute, you’ll very rarely go to that loom for a fault. Get one running at two hundred and twenty and you're never away. And everything lasts longer, shuttles, leathers, all the furniture.
Now then, one thing there, one word there Ernie, sorry. Furniture, what's furniture on a loom?
R- Aye. Well you, you furnish your loom. If you buy a loom. I've never bought one but if you buy one, you buy it fully furnished, That means an empty beam, and all the leathers and pickers and shuttles.
Is that right, when a new loom was bought it was furnished?
(30 min)
R – Aye, fully furnished.
Well now. I didn’t know that.
R- Yes. I wouldn't swear to it, but I’ve heard the old tacklers and, and old textile workers say.
Yes .. aye. So the furnishings on a loom are anything which isn't actually part of the loom like shuttles, pickers, leathers ...
R- That's right.
Beam, cloth roller, these are what you call furnishings.
R- Aye, that's it. If you get a fully furnished loom, all you need's a beam with yarn on and some weft.
That's it, you only need your warp and weft.
R- And away you go.
And a drive and you are away.
R- You can make a shirt for a China man.
Make a shirt for a China man, yes. Who was it said that if they'd only put an inch on China men’s shirt laps, Lancashire’d be saved.
R- 1 don't know who it were but I've been saying it for years and years.
Aye, that’s it. Anyway, number 40.
R- Well, they make their own now don't they'?
'Well, they make better shirts than we do.
R- Aye, they do.
Number 40.
R- Number 40, well I'm still making progress but…
But, something which often happens to a tackler ..
R- Aye, I’m just commencing operations, gaiting this warp, and one of my weavers came. I remember this, nice girl, what do they call her, Susan Longbottom. She's left.
Why did she leave?
(650)
R- Well, no progress, no future, no nothing. She’s gone to a better firm at Earby, Johnson’s, but she doesn't like. She wants to come back. But there you are you see. They have a canteen, and if they cut their finger they can have a plaster, anything really that they want they can have, and she’s not very happy.
And I can state from experience that the toilets at Johnson’s are like palaces.
R- Yes, aye, aye.
They are, they're just like a palace.
R - Aye it's amazing in't it. You see she'd only been here about a year, and it had grown on her, this place. Isn’t it funny?
Well, it's .. I mean, I find it’s very understandable, you know what I think about Bancroft? It's, for all its faults, Bancroft has, it's got that certain something.
R- Aye it has.
I don't know what it is. And it's the dirtiest, muckiest, worst run shop I've ever seen in my bloody life.
R- Aye. I have a weaver with industrial lice, doctor called it. I don't think it is, because I have no bloody lice. She’s been doctored for it.
Aye? ... Industrial lice?
R- Aye. Eh!
That'll be, that'll be a compensation job.
R- Oh no. I don't think so, she is improving.
Improving …
R- I only said to her this morning “How’s your lice?" She said “I went to the doctor's last night” and ..I said “What treatment did he give you?" She said "He shoved a needle in me arse." I says "Is it doing any good?" She says “Me arse is sore."
Where exactly has she got the lice?
R - On her, on her legs.
On her legs?
R- Well, all over her body really I think. They aren't lice. He looked into, through a magnifying glass at the lice and then he give her this final treatment, the needle. They call them industrial lice. I said “Have you catched any" she says “I haven't seen nowt."
Aye. You'd better let me know after who that. doctor is. I want to keep away from him!
R- Doctor Cooper.
Oh, is that who it is. Aye. Oh well, we'll keep away from him. Anyway, Susan had come to you, and she'd got a bit of a problem, although she were having a bit of a giggle that day
R- Oh they all, aye they all giggle. Usually, they are like a father figure are tacklers. They'll come and tell you their troubles you know, and ask your advice. And she is that type, but 1 think she's just saying weaving bart weft, or picker broken or shuttle catch. Sommat like that. And I'm saying "What the bell you've been doing?"
Aye, it is a very close relationship though really, isn't it, tackler and weaver?
R- It is. Oh it is.
I mean, I can imagine that at times you'll have to be very careful.
R- Oh aye. Well, years ago you, I mean, if you wanted to be careful. You didn’t always want to be careful though.
Aye, that's right Ernie aye. But I mean, it is a very close relationship really.
R - Oh it is, it is, aye.
I mean even though the old days of, you know, the slave driving tackler have gone. I mean, there’s still that close contact. And obviously, I mean, when you're squeezing up between the bloody looms, it's close, it's close, it's body contact and all.
R - Oh aye, aye. It is bum to bum aye. I've heard them say many a time that bloody weaver's coming again, wanting to rub bums. But it does happen.
Yes. Aye. That's probably one of the reasons why Bancroft's such a nice shop to work at, we’ve got narrow alleys.
R- Aye, that's it. That's one of the points, it must be. Number 41, still carrying on with t'same job.
Aye good. That’s a good picture of the Roberts affliction.
R- Aye, that's it, aye.
What you could call a tackler’s stance.
R- That’s it, aye.
Now, come on, what are you actually doing there?
R- Well, I’m pushing the warp into t’back of the loom. And once it's in…
Yes, well, once it's in, 42…
R- Number 42…
What are you doing on that one, number 42?
R- Well, I'm still carrying on, shoving t’warp into the loom.
That's it, but you've got your knee, … you have lifted one end …
R- Well, there is this part knack.
On 41 you’ve one end in haven’t you.
R- That’s it, but I mean this, this warp weighs two hundred odd pound. And I mean, I’m no Charles Atlas! There is a knack, and it takes a long while to learn it. Really, I couldn't tell you how to do it, but you get one end in ..
You get one end in, and then you get hold of the other end and you get your knee behind it, and you rock back don't you.
R- That’s right, you lift it with your body.
You rock back and that lifts it. Yes. Now tell me sommat, Ernie, I think I’m right in saying so, in the old days they didn't use to use trucks did they?
R- No.
They'd carry a warp in, like that, on their shoulder.
R- Aye, but I don't think in the old days, they didn't have that stuff, you know. That's, that must be at least, oh ten times heavier than cotton. I think that twist, them threads, it's eighteens, and say you could .. well you can weigh a yard it if you want. But if you weighed, say a yard of that eighteens twist and eighteens cotton, I bet that would weigh ten times as much. Aye.
Aye, I never realised them warps were so much heavier than cotton.
R- Oh yes.
But I mean, a lot of the weight's in the beam isn't it?
R- Well aye, but they… it's 'very heavy stuff that, very heavy..
Yes, Right, 43.
R-Right, 43, Well…
We Progress.
R- Aye, first job’s chains on.
Now then, when you say chains, which chains are those?
R- Well, these chains go twice round what we call a collar.
Yes, on the end of the beam.
R- Aye. And the chain comes down, you can see it on 44, on to a lever, a weight lever. You put weights on the lever, however much it needs.
So, in other words…
R- Some sorts need a lot of weight. Some sorts don't need much weight.
Yes, in other words, when you put those weights on the end, it tightens that chain up on that collar, and there's one at each end, and that's acting as a brake on the beam isn’t it.
R- That’s right.
It's holding the beam back, so the loom's got to pull it through, and the more weight you put on, the more drag there is on the beam. And the tighter your warp is, as it is coming through the reeds. Coming through the healds and reed. Yes, that's it.
R- That's it, aye. That's it. You can't leave them without weight.
Yes, I remember seeing one, I think it was last year, it was one that, now wait a minute, Albert Gornall, [Albert was another of the tacklers at Bancroft.] and I’ve never seen a warp with as many weights hung on it in my life, they were tied together in bunches like grapes.
R- Oh aye. Well, there’s other ways you can do it without a lot of weights.
Oh I see, yes, well go on, you tell me.
R- How can I tell you? It’s all in relation you see? There is this bearer, an eccentric on the end, and …
That's the rocking rail on the back, that the sheet first goes over when it goes into the loom.
R- Aye, well you can, yes, you can call it a rocking rail that, if you like. But the proper name is bearer. And on t’end of t’bearer there is a arm, and it goes on to an eccentric pulley. When t’loom's running, every time t’healds are level at t’top, this bearer come up and takes the slack up you see? Well, there's ways of doing it with the tappets so that you don’t need so much weight. You can …
Aye, I see what you mean, aye. So that you are actually getting your tension when that arm comes up.
R- Aye, aye. You can either tread late or soon and well, Albert must not have known really. Well in fact I remember that job, I told him about it.
Yes, yes. Tell me something, have you ever seen anybody cutting holes in the floor to let the weights go down a bit lower?
R- No, it's a tackler's tale that, they also say that they file the bottom off a weight to make it so it doesn't bounce on the floor, but …
I’ll tell you what we have seen here, I think what we' d better say here is that both of us have seen grooves cut in the floors so as the rocking rail at t’bottom will run.
R - Oh yes, oh that's regular.
Because the feet of the loom have sunk into the flags and the middle flags come up. And we've had to, we've had to lift the loom over to one side, and chop a piece out of the flags so that the rocking rail at the bottom can turn without rubbing on the floor.
R - Aye. Oh aye.
And there's many a loom, when we've shifted them, the floor's been polished under the rocking rail hasn’t it?
R - Oh aye. It's rocking on t’floor.
Yes. I often. think it does them good, it tightens all bearings I think.
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R- Aye, I don't think it does them much harm. And then they're worn away you see, rocking rail ends, everything's going down hill.
Yes. Tell me something, something I once heard you say, about an old tackler once showing you a dodge. We were talking about things getting loose and worn. I think you know what I mean don't you? You tell me about it. This old tackler once showed you a dodge, you couldn’t get one loom to weave.
R- That's right. It's, sometimes they stiffen up, like in the bushes. And this loom of mine had gone stiff, and .. well, it wouldn't hardly run. And .. I hadn't been at it, oh a year or two I had been tackling, but it takes a lot of years to learn, and finally I went for this tackler, .. he was, oh he was an old man then, and this is thirty years since. I told Joe, they called him Joe Askham, and I asked would he come and have a look. So he came and he unscrewed all the main parts on the loom, cross rails and ..
Yes, the frame work, yes.
R- Aye, the frame work. And when he unfastened the last nut, it just settled down, shuddered really, and then we tightened them all up, and it were like a bloody sewing machine. That floor had sunk, and t’loom were like skew-whiff some way.
Aye, and it were, it were kaiking [twisting] in t’bearings somewhere and tightening ...
(40 Min)
R- I said “Well, thank you Joe.” and he just grinned at me. Poor Joe, he's been dead a long while him. Now, he worked till he were eighty years old, seventy-nine.
As a tackler? Aye ...
R- Aye. Aye he did. And he retired and he died after about six months.
He retired, and then died after six months? Aye?
He had six months retirement and died.
If he had kept tackling do you think held have gone on longer?
R- Could have done, you never know.
[Very poignant transcribing this in 2002 because Ernie retired in 1978 when we closed down and was dead less than two years later because of a brain tumour.]
Yes. Well, I often wonder about that. What was the name of that old weaver we had at t’back on t’pensioners side on eight looms? What was her name, do you remember, right at the back. She was seventy six this year. [The pensioner’s side was on the main shaft side of the shed. They were all eight loom sets and the older weavers had them. Billy Two Rivers was there. They could often do more production on eight than some weavers on ten.]
R- Oh, at least. Aye. Well, there is one in there now seventy-four you know.
Who’s seventy four?
R- Polly [Polly Hodgson] . Polly down t’right hand-side, first weaver down the right hand-side, she joins with another weaver.
When you say right hand-side
R- Going in at the door, right hand-side here.
What, Muriel [Smith] ?
R- She joins with Muriel.
Is that the lady with white hair that comes in, is she over seventy?
R- Seventy-four.
Good God, you'd never think it would you to look at her? Aye ...
R- No. She is a, she is an old fashioned weaver, a good one.
I’ll tell you sommat about her, she won't go out of that shed and leave an end down for Muriel.
R- Oh no, no she won't.
She won't leave an end down for Muriel because before now, when I've gone to lock up at night she's asked me, she said “Will you wait - she said, I’m sorry but - she said -I have a bunch of ends downs you know. I've just got a couple to take-up." And she'll take them up. And one week, I'm
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not sure if I'm right, I think it were her .. it was. She came back Saturday morning.
R- Aye, she would do.
Because she must have been in on the Friday, and Muriel would be coming in on the Monday, and she came in Saturday morning, and asked if she could just go in t'shed for ten minutes. And I thought happen she had left her glasses because she does sometimes but she were taking a bunch of ends up.
R- Aye, well, she's an old fashioned weaver you see. There isn't so many about. Well, there won't be at seventy-four will there? But she is. There is ... it's a funny job somehow. There's, there's weavers in there, they are worth their weight in gold. You go in their alleys and it's like going in a little parlour, even in a muck hole like this. Everything in its place, and everything's clean.
Yes, and would you say ...
R- Myra. Myra’s alley, just go in there and have a look sometimes, or Polly's. I'd say Mary Wilkins's about the same..
Oh, Mary. Aye and well, me mother in law as well, Mary Hepworth. I’ve seen her polishing t’slay!
R- Oh yes, Mary. She were on her own I think. She went to extremes did Mary.
She does with everything. On the whole would you say that these weavers that are the really good weavers .. do you think it’d be true to say Ernie that they were the ones .. who, when they were learning to weave, they were hungry.
R- Aye. It's necessity that's made them like that, perfect, perfect bloody idiots.
Well yes, you say perfect bloody idiots but you know what I mean, and obviously I don't want to put words into your mouth, but I mean, we have talked about this enough. I mean we've talked a lot about this, but its it's beginning to dawn on me that that in order to make a good weaver they’ve got to have some sort of an incentive
R- Aye.
And nobody could ever say that the incentive has ever been money, or glory because I mean weaving has never been regarded an a skilled job. And the only thing that I can think is that .. it's like, you know they used to say about good boxers, you know, why did Negros make good boxers. You know, they had to be hungry. And I often wonder whether it were the same with weavers you know.
R- I'm sure it were, because they had to be good or they were out.
Yes. And now that doesn't apply
R- No, it doesn’t apply now, not under this system that we live in now. I mean, you won't starve to death if you come out of work, not with this Social Security.
Which in some ways is a good thing, but in other ways is…..
R- Well 1 suppose it has, it must have its good points. I mean it' s abused we know but these conditions are a lot better than they were Stan.. I've never been as well off in my life.
I'm glad to hear you say it.
R- Well it's true.
I know it's true, and I think it's great because I think you deserve it. I honestly do.
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45 min
SCG/01 October 2002
8049 words