THIS TAPE HAS BEEN RECORDED ON THE JUNE 22 1978 AT BANCROFT ENGINE HOUSE, BARNOLDSWICK. THE INFORMANT IS ERNIE ROBERTS, TACKLER, AND THE INTERVIEWER IS STANLEY GRAHAM.
Now then Ernie, I just want to start with one or two things that cropped up off last weeks tapes. Have you remembered where the house on Colne Road was?
R-Aye, No. 9, Westgate, that were a decent house.
When you say ‘decent house’, what do you mean?
R-Well, a decent house, better standard than No. 1 John Street, two bedrooms and kitchen and sitting room and a back door and a yard.
When did you move there?
R-Oh, I’d be about 15.
So, you were born in 1916, that ud be about 1931, you’d be working by then.
R-Oh yes, things had bucked up by this time. Two workers in th’house, me and Fred.
Now then, when you were on about your mother catching you in Calf Hall Dam you said that when she chased you down the road she were belting you with a picking band all t’time. Now, what’s a picking band?
R-It’s a piece of leather used on a loom.
Another thing, I remember you saying ‘witchered.
R-Oh well, it means if you get your feet wet.
Now when you went for that sand and that lad said ‘Eh what a nice arse you’ve got Mrs Yates, who were that?
R-That were a bloke called Raymond Riding.
When Fred got his first job, did you say he was hawking milk?
R-He were a milk boy aye.
Can you remember how much he was paid?
R-Three and six a week.
How old were he then?
R-He’d be about nine or ten I suppose, because later on, oh I were a lather boy later on.
Who was Fred working for when he was hawking milk?
R-A farmer called Taylforth.
Oh, would that be Dennis Taylforth’s father?
R-Calf Hall Farm. I remember they called the horse Captain, he used to gallop along, farting. Because as Fred grew older and I grew up a bit I got that milk job, it were like brother to brother.
Same money?
R-Aye, t’same wage, three and six. Then t’farmer’s wife used to give me us an egg or two. I’ll tell you a little tale about that, [I’d got] me first new suit wi’ long pants. We used to go up about half past three in the afternoon, to help to muck out. We finished mucking out and I were just leaning, brush and shovel up against the wall, outside and a bloke called Willie Ralph says ‘Bring t’shovel here Ernie, there’s a cow going to shite’. So I run in with a shovel, put it under its tail and it coughed.
Were it in summer?
R-Aye, it were in summer, it had been out on’t fog.
Oh, reight, reight grand fog muck, you’d be a fair mess then?
R-Oh, I were off work that night, I didn’t tek t’milk.
Did you used to take the milk at night then?
R-Oh aye, morning and night.
[Fog is the local name for the aftermath, the first sweet growth of grass after haymaking which is very juicy but low in fibre. It makes the cow’s muck very thin, green and evil smelling. When the cow coughed, Ernie would get it full in the face. There is another small point here, normally in summer, the only time the cattle would be in would be for milking. Because they were hawking milk in the days before refrigeration and taking it twice a day, you would expect them to take it as fresh as possible. Ernie says he used to go up there at half past three in the afternoon. This suggests they were doing an afternoon milking so as to have the freshest milk possible for delivery. There is a corollary to this, ideally, milking should be 12 hours apart so the morning milking would be very early in order to have the milk ready in time for the first delivery.]
R-And most mornings you were late for school and got t’stick.
What time did you go round in the morning with the milk. What time were you up?
R-Oh it’d be fairly early. We finished taking the milk, most of it, by school time, nine o’clock so they must have started about seven o’clock.
Did you go to the same customers night and morning?
R-Yes, winter and summer.
When you were a lather boy, how much did you get there?
Three and six a week but that was slavery. Every night after school at four o’clock, I used to go there, to Billy Demeline’s. Mrs Demeline used to have a little tea ready for me you know, she were very good to me really. But moneywise, it were hopeless. Every night after school, four o’clock, until the last customer came in at night, that could be any time up to eight o’clock at night during t’week. Saturday, all day Saturday till any time at night. Three and six.
Whereabouts were that shop?
R-Next door but one to the Seven Stars, it’s still there now, it’s Woodworth’s watch making shop.
That’s it, aye. That were a barber’s shop?
R-Aye, it must have been a barber’s shop for oh, years and years.
And, lather boy, your job’d be sweeping the floor up and lathering them up.
R-Lathering, all the [customers for shaving] there were two models in that area you know in them days. [Ernie is referring to the two ‘model lodging houses’ that were down Butts. One of them became a garage, the larger one, further down Butts became Briggs and Duxbury’s builder’s yard. They are both built of Accrington Brick. They were used by the weavers who had no permanent address in the town.] Where all the tramp weavers used to live.
Which were the two models?
R-Well, that one at t’bottom of Butts and what is Briggs and Duxbury’s woodyard now.
Oh, was that a model lodging house as well, the red brick building?
R-That’s right.
I didn’t know that. And the money you earned, did you tip it up to your mother?
R-Oh yes.
All of it?
R-Oh aye. Well we used to get a bob back you know. But in any case, for a shave it were twopence halfpenny and a lot of customers used to give me the odd halfpenny so I made a bob or two that way.
How about school meals?, did you ever get any meals at school?
R- Oh no.
Can you ever remember anyone getting a free meal at school?
R-Never.
How about medical inspections?
R-Oh aye. The nit nurse used to come round what, every week. And the dentist but not very often. There were no fillings, they were out if they were rotten and there were a lot of rotten teeth. Like I’ve said before, bow legs and rotten teeth used to go like hand in hand.
Did the dentist work at school? Did he take them out at school or did you have to go to him?
I don’t remember, I think he worked at school.
How about the doctor coming round to school, looking at you.
R-Never saw one.
And the attendance man?
R-Oh yes. You’d got to be there, it were, well you know, he’d come to your house, he wanted to know where you were.
What did they call him? Was that what they called him, Attendance Man, or was there another name round here?
R-School Bobby, that’s what they called him.
Were he in uniform?
R-No, but he were a very strict man as I remember, it were t’same feller all the time I were at school.
Did you know his name?
R-No, I don’t remember his name. But I had no problem, as I always went to school, if I weren’t ill like.
Where there a lot didn’t go?
R-Oh, plenty.
What reason mainly, just laiking about?
R-Oh aye, and then it weren’t a very happy time at school then. They used to whack you with t’bloody stick for no reason at all sometimes. I can remember getting caned and fainting, Mr Turner, from Earby,
Yes, we’ll get on to school in more detail in a minute. Can you remember the school inspectors coming round?
R-Yes, and if there were a pupil that were a bit brainy, you know, and t’master used to say “Stand up Roberts and answer questions for Mr So and so.” Not Roberts very often, but sometimes.
We were on the other week about lending money and I know that you did tell me during the week that you’d remembered someone that lent money. Who was it?
R-Isaac Levi.
Was that the same Isaac Levi that had a shop down Earby?
R-Yes, well, I think it were his son had that shop in Earby. But this is a long while after Isaac Levi had this little shop in Walmsgate.
Whereabouts was the shop in Walmsgate?
R-You know where Billy Blackburn lives now? Well, it were there.
Oh, the end house in the row where Savages started up? [16 Walmsgate]
R-That’s right.
That’s it, yes. And did he lend money for interest?
R-Yes.
Any idea what the interest was?
R-No idea but he were a very good man were Isaac. I mean, he helped a lot of people. I’ve heard, but lots of people talk, in fact I’ve never heard anyone cry Isaac down. Most people that knew him said he were a nice chap.
And you did mention during the week that Savages first started up as a greengrocer’s business in Walmsgate. Whereabouts was that?
R-That’d be next door but three to Isaac’s.
Where the butcher’s shop is now? [8 Walmsgate]
R-That’s right.
What’s his name in the butcher’s shop now?
R-Alan Fielding [This was in 1978. In 2001 it is still a butchers but is run by Stephen Bell.]
That’s it Alan Fielding, and Savages started up there?
R-Me mother told me, she remembered him starting and he had a box of onions, they used to be in like orange boxes did onions, and a barrel of apples and I fancy he’d have a few vegetables as well.
Any idea when that was?
R-Oh. It must have been a long time since.
Yes. Now, while you were living down there, can you remember Bancroft starting up?
R-No, I don’t remember it starting up. I think it started in 1920 and I would only be four then.
That’s it. You’ll be able to remember weavers coming up in the morning to Bancroft?
R-Oh aye. I mean Bancroft’s been like a permanent feature in my lifetime here. There used to be 1100 looms running. There’d be, what would there be, three hundred at least working up there in them days, so you can imagine when t’shop stopped, all them trooping down Wapping wi’ clogs on.
Aye, wi’ their clogs, wearing the street out. Good enough Ernie. Now then, there’s something else come up here, about Isaac Levi being a bookmaker as well.
R-Aye, That’s right, he was. And he were a decent bookmaker as well but they did tell a tale about him being diddled a few times before he tumbled to this dodge. This town, Barnoldswick, it’s always been a gambling town, there used to be a gambling club, they called it the Betting Club, up Market Street. But this trick that these fly boys played on Isaac, they used to go in wi’ a bet, and he’d say, ‘Put it in the shoe box’. You see he’d have a shoe box, maybe on his counter. He’d read the bet of course and he’d say to the bloke, or he might throw it into the shoe box. But somebody had a bright idea, they got two pieces of paper and wrote a winning bet out and then stuck another bet on top wi’ a bit of spit. Well, Isaac threw both bets in the box and by the time reckoning up time came this bit of spit had dried and these two pieces of paper fell apart. So there were a winning bet in the box to start wi’. Twisting buggers, I don’t like twisters. Oh pigeon flying, all sorts of competitions, t’bowling green at t’Conservative Club ground, you know it were a beautiful bowling green that.
Whereabouts was the Conservative Club ground?
R-Butts.
Whereabouts at Butts?
R-Well you know where the welfare place is now, the clinic? Well sideways on to that. You can see it’s a been a bowling green even today. It’s fenced off now, it belongs to TB Fords [In 2001 it was Carlson Ford] but they used to have, happen twice in a summer, they’d have frizzles and all us Wappinger lads used to get to know about these frizzles and you know, we’d be there.
What’s a frizzle?
R-Oh, they used to fry in big trays, chops and eggs…
What they’d call a barbecues now.
R-Well, aye, I suppose they do. Chops and liver and bacon and eggs, oh it were a real bloody do. And they used to feed us, these chaps, Tories, aye Conservative Club.
How did Isaac go on wi’ his bets?
R-Oh well, from all accounts he tumbled it. He wouldn’t summons ‘em, he’d just bar ‘em I suppose. If they showed their face in the shop he’d just say ‘out’. Did I tell you, when we were coming home from school, if we were feeling devilish, his door was always open, we’d stop at his door and shout inside, ‘Who Killed Christ!’. And run like hell.
There you are! Oh well, we’ll get back to these questions about life in the home, I’ve no doubt we’ll digress again but still…… Were there any games that your mother played in the house with you, or that you played between yourselves?
R-No, I don’t think so. I think we had, what did you call that game where you used to pull the spring and t’ball used to fly down?
Oh God! We’ve got one at home. You’re not supposed to be asking me the questions! I know what you mean.
[It was bagatelle of course.]
R-We had one of them for a long time. Aye, if the weather were really bad we’d play cards, I don’t know, but there were, there were never happy families. Oh, snakes and ladders, I think we had a snakes and ladders game at one time. But we’d be gambling!
I were going to say, were there dice in the house.
R-Aye. Aye, we’d be gambling, we were gamblers. I tell you what, Fred my elder brother once offered me a shilling if he could throw, I think they were magpie eggs, at me standing against the wall across from John Street. So I said ‘Alright’.
A shilling?
R-A shilling, aye.
How old were you?
R-Well, he’d be maybe fourteen or fifteen and I’d be what, Ten. Aye.
It were a lot of money.
R-So it were. I stood up against the wall and he threw these eggs at me and missed with every one. But I didn’t get me shilling. Happy days!
Can you remember ever having a newspaper?
No, I don’t remember a newspaper.
Or a magazine?
R-Later on maybe, but I think she used to get the Daily Sketch, my mother, not every day, just occasionally. How much were they then, a penny? But we never had a paper delivered.
Did she ever get a woman’s paper of any sort, you know, like Woman’s Weekly or anything like that.
R-No, but she used to read. I don’t know what she read, it’d be love stories I suppose. She were only a young woman when me father died you know, thirty odd. And she never had another feller. And she were a good-looking woman. She used to get pestered occasionally but no, she thought that much about her kids, she were a good woman.
Aye, must have been.
R-She were.
Must have been Ernie. Did any of the family belong to the library?
R-No.
‘Cause I know you are a great reader aren’t you.
R-I’m a reader but I’ve never been a library man. If I have a book it belongs to me. I couldn’t be responsible for someone else’s book.
Yes, would you say you were a reader then?
R-Oh, I’ve been a reader all me life, right from penny comics, Wizard, Hotspur.
Who used to get them for you, did you get them yourself?
R-I used to get ‘em meself. I were always earning a copper you know, running about, running errands, I’d go anywhere.
How about books in the house? Can you remember any books in the house?
R-Only t’rent book!
That wouldn’t make reight good reading some days! Could everyone in the family read and write?
R-Oh aye, we were all fairly good scholars.
Who were t’best scholar?
R-I think I were t’best scholar.
Aye, I think you might have been. How about toys?
R-Well, after things bucked up you see we’d have toys.
Can you remember any?
R-Not really, but you’re on about musical as well, I remember getting a musical box given. It were a lovely thing, light coloured wood you know, and it used to play these tunes, I forget what the tunes were but it were like a brass cylinder with all them spikes on you know. That silly bugger Wilson decided to change the tunes so he kept knocking the odd spike out here and there, he ruined it. I were only on to him a few weeks since, that musical box today must be worth hundreds of pounds, it would have been, but it were ruined.
Who gave you that?
R-You remember Jim Barrett? You must have known Jim Barrett, bricklayer? He lived up at Springs Farm.
How old would you be then when he gave it to you?
R-Oh, fourteen happen.
When your mother had any spare time in the house what did she used to do with it? What did she do with her spare time at home?
R-Eh, I don’t know. I don’t think she ever had any spare time really. I can’t remember her sitting about, but we were never in much you know. If it were fine we were out.
Yes, but in winter you’d be….
R-Oh I don’t know, we’d still be out doing sommat. I mean it were Fifth of November, chubbing, [Chubbing is a dialect word for gathering wood.] Christmas, singing carols, earning money. There were me, Tommy Lambert and Tommy Harmer. Just us three, I used to have the candle in a jar and Tommy Harmer played the mouth organ and Tommy Lambert used to play on the piccolo. Well we always called him ‘Shuffy’ and he weren’t bad on the piccolo. We were playing one night, ‘While Shepherds watched their flocks’ or something and Tommy’s piccolo started gurgling, so we had to tell him to wipe his nose. We used to make a bob or two at Christmas and New Year’s morning we used to go to t’Model with t’brush and black face collecting off th’old tramp weavers. Aye, always a shilling or two to be made somehow. I used to come up here, weeding at sixpence an hour.
What, to good houses like…..
R-Aye, knock on’t door and say ‘Could I weed your garden?’ like. Regular customers. There were three teachers used to live in that corner house there, where that model is now, lodging house. Just across there. And they were , I used to come up here regular, every week.
Aye, What do you call that house, is it Springbank or something like that?
R-Sommat like that.
It was built the same time as the mill they reckon weren’t it, that house. Somebody once told me that.
R-Could have been.
I think one of the Nutters built that house.
R-Anyway, when I were weeding for them they’d call me in at lunch time, it must have been a Saturday happen when I were doing it. One of the women would have a little table set out with a tablecloth on and a nice little meal. I’d have a little bit of lunch and back out into the garden, pay me a tanner an hour.
How old would you be then?
R-About twelve happen.
Initiative Ernie!
R-Oh aye. Once I’d learned which way the road turned I can’t honestly say I’ve ever been hard up ‘cause if there were a shilling to be made I’ll be there. And you can always make a shilling, I mean there’s a lot of unemployed today and they’ve no need to be.
Yes. No you’re quite right. What time did you get up in a morning usually?
R-Are we still at John Street?
Yes, John Street.
R-Well, school time, it’d be early happen about half past seven, eight o’clock.
How about the milk?
R-Oh well, when t’milk job started I had to be up by half past six.
How old were you when you started on the milk?
R-Well, I were only a little lad when I were a lather boy, and it were after I were a lather boy I were a milk boy, oh, I’d happen be 11 or 12 happen. I were a milk lad for Taylforth and I must have been a good man at my job because then a bloke called Brewster, he kept a farm across from Calf Hall, shilling a week more so I went milk-ladding for him, four and six a week, busy days.
What time did you go to bed at night?
R-Well, we went to bed when we were tired, there were no telly you know. Maybe ten o’clock. But we used to go to the pictures a lot now, we’ve got to the picture days now. Pictures Monday, Tuesday, miss Wednesday, Thursday and Friday and see a different picture every night.
Why did you miss Wednesday?
R-Well, Programme were Monday Tuesday and Wednesday at t’Majestic, and Monday, Tuesday Wednesday at the Palace. So Monday Majestic, Tuesday Palace, Wednesday I don’t know what, Thursday Majestic and Friday at the Palace.
How about the Alhambra, did you ever go there?
R-No, I can just about remember the Alhambra, I can remember it being burned down. {The fire was in April 1923 so this would be in the ‘Hard-up’ days. Ernie would be seven years old when it burned.] No, I never went, I can’t remember going to the pictures there.
Aye, of course it stood on the piece of land next to the bowling green you were on about.
R-Yes it did, it stood where the welfare place is now. And then there were an open market there you know after it were burned down. That were interesting and then the fairs used to come on there. It’s been a useful piece of land has that and it were a good courting shop later.
Is that right? Aye, we’ll get on to that later Ernie. If you were in at night, it were gas-lit were that house?
R-Oh aye.
Would your mother ever say anything like we’re going, we’ll not bother lighting t’gas, we’ll go to bed or did you just used to sit by the fire light?
Oh no, we’d go to bed if there were no, sometimes we didn’t have any gas you know. It’s no good sitting having no coal, Oh we used to get a bit of coal though, they used to deliver coal to Calf Hall and t’road were in a poor state so when t’wagons were going down loaded they always used to spill a bit so we used to go down and collect that. And then we’d walk past the stack and hit it with a stick and what fell off went into t’bucket. So we used to, oh and Clough just across the road were on coal as well you know. We wouldn’t be without a fire for long.
Is that right?
R-Oh, necessity knows no law.
No, you’re quite right. How about coke from the gas works, did you ever go there?
R-Yes aye, we used to go to the gas works. You know the fiddle with the little truck? [We had a little wheeled truck we used to collect coke and] when you go in they used to weigh your truck but under the sack you’d have a couple of bricks. Go in to the yard, up to the stack, there used to be a feller there but not always, you used to weigh your own, half a hundredweight, a sackful. Well, you’d leave the bricks there, there must have been enough bricks to build a house ‘cause everyone was doing it. On your way out you got two bricks worth of cinders for nothing. I once went for a bucket of creosote, and coming out you used to report to th’office you know. Well, I weren’t very tall so I bobbed down and walked under the window so that were another bit of profit there.
What were the creosote for, somebody’s hens?
R-Some hen keeper. [For painting the hen cabins to protect them against water and rot.]
Can you ever remember being taken down to the gas works with whooping cough? It were fairly frequent were that weren’t it.
R-I’ve always had a good chest, good job. I’ll tell you what they used to tell, you know when they used to come round tarring the roads?
Aye.
R-Whether it’s true or not I don’t know, I hope it isn’t true, but there were a baby with whooping cough and her mother were holding her up by the boiling tar and the poor little bugger fell in. Whether it were true, it could be true.
Aye, easily because it were done. Newton were only saying the other day about being taken on to the top of the retorts when he had whooping cough and Vera was as well. [My wife. SCG.] I have an idea one of her relations worked at the gas works. Now what makes you say the gasworks was an interesting place?
R- Well I mean, the coal went in there and I remember one time, at school, we went on a conducted tour and it were interesting were that. We did an experiment with a clay pipe. A few little bits of coal in the bowl, seal it up wi’ some clay, put it on the fire and within a few minutes you got a light on’t end.
That’s it, that’s how they first discovered coal gas.
R-Now I suppose that’s a trick that’s been handed down.
That’s it, were clay pipes common then?
R-Oh everybody [smoked ‘em]. I had an aunt once that smoked a clay pipe and she used to enjoy it. I used to go errands for her to the Co-op for this tobacco. I mean nearly everyone was a member of the Co-op in those days. She sent me for this twist and I noticed he never used to weigh it this fellow. He used to put it round my neck and cut it off but he also used to cut a little bit off and there were always a long piece and a little bit in this bag. So I thought one time, I’ll pinch that little bit, she’ll never miss it, and try it. Right, get a clay pipe. So I pinched this little bit and when I got up to see me aunt Annie with this twist she took it out of the bag and she says Where’s the jockey? I says What jockey? Oh I says, it’s here. She says You little bugger, tha were going to pinch it! And they called that bit ‘the jockey’ and everyone who bought twist in them days had to have a jockey besides.
Did she ever chew it?
R-No, I don’t think she chewed it.
What sort of twist were it, can you remember?
R-Black twist.
Aye, there used to be some called ‘Lady’s Brown’, it were very thin.
R-Oh, I’ve seen that. And there’s some reight thin like bootlaces.
Yes, well that were very thin that Lady’s Brown but there were some very thin black stuff, that were chewing twist.
R-Oh but this were reight thick stuff, black as ink.
Aye, thick twist.
R-And the jockey!
And the jockey, well you live and learn. Of course, you were a bit of a beggar for experiments weren’t you?
R-Oh aye. It’s a sure cure for tooth ache you know, a bit of black twist. But as for the experiments, we’d have a do at owt.
Aye, that’s it, how about gunpowder?
R-Oh, don’t mention gunpowder, it’s a miracle I’m here! This were at John Street. Fred, me elder brother, had a muzzle loading shotgun. We must have had a dresser at this time and he used to keep the gunpowder locked in a cupboard but I found out if you pulled the drawer out you could get your hand down into this cupboard. I did this many a time, take out the powder horn, and we had a steel fender as things had bucked up. The horn used to have a little stopper on the end and I used to press on this and open it and run the gunpowder along . Then I’d get the poker and get it red hot and touch it to one end of the powder and it’d go psssssh! And if any of the kids were in I’d say Continued in our next! But one day I’m doing this trick and the bloody lot went up, big explosion, burnt all the skin off me face, fireplace hanging off be one leg. The old girl next door, she’d been bedfast about three years and she fell out of bed, There were hell on and didn’t I cop it! I went to the pictures same week and I were like the invisible man, all bandaged up.
Who bandaged you up?
R-Oh it were me mother, she didn’t dare go for the doctor, it were illegal were this gunpowder and he might have reported it to the police or something like that. But he were a good hunter were Fred. This muzzle loading shotgun, we wanted a Sunday dinner maybe and he had just enough gunpowder for one shot but no pellets. So he got an old bicycle wheel and took the ball bearings out of the hub and loaded it wi’ that and out he went. He came back with a hare and he only had one shot. Aye, he were a good provider.
Where did he get his gunpowder from, do you know?
R-No.
If your mother had sent for the doctor she would have had to pay wouldn’t she?
R-Possibly, oh, but he used to come every week did the doctors man, sixpence a week.
Oh, she used to pay?
R-Oh Yes.
So, she were on like what they used to call the panel, they had a panel didn’t they.
R-Well, it must have been, it were sixpence a week for ever, Dr Glen’s book.
That’s it, and if you were on Dr Glen’s book and you were poorly…….
R-Well, up to being 12 years old I were always poorly, so t’doctor were coming on and off you know. I told you once before about six death beds. When I were about 11 or 12 Doctor Glen told me mother I only had three months to live. So she said to me, she didn’t tell me I were going to die in three months, but there were a grocer’s shop, Bonny’s, we had a tick book there. She said to me ‘You can go and get anything you fancy.’ Eh, I thought, that’s a rare do. So, Woodbines, ham sandwiches, meat pies, eh, owt I fancied. It only lasted a week, once she got the bill that were stopped!
How old were you then, ah, 12 weren’t you. Were you smoking Woodbines then?
R-Yes, I were 12. You started off smoking tealeaves but then we worked up to Woodbines.
Did your mother know you were smoking Woodbines?
R-No, she might have done, she never objected to me smoking anyway because I were dying, I were, I were dead next week. I fancy she thought it’s no good getting on to him.
How about pets, did you have any pets?
R-Oh aye, we allus had sommat. We’ve had all sorts. Jackdaws, always a cat, always a dog, I once had a cuckoo, that died. Well, I think I choked it, I gave it some bacon rind and I don’t think it did it any good at all. I were sorry though, it were a nice bird.
How about dogs, did you use them for rabbiting?
R-Aye we allus did., we allus had a dog like, but old Jack, that were a dog that seemed to grow up wi’ us.
What sort were it?
R-Mongrel, Oh no, we never had owt wi’ a pedigree.
Did your mother smoke?
R-I think she had an odd fag but I don’t think she smoked really. I think she used to like a tot of whisky, not that, she didn’t go out boozing, I think we used to have an odd bottle in the house.
How much were a bottle of whisky then, can you remember?
R- Seven and six. Oh I remember what I used to go for, a noggin of rum occasionally, in’t pub. Take your own bottle and they put a noggin of rum into it, it wouldn’t be so much. May be when she weren’t feeling too well.
When you say a noggin, how much would that be, it’s more than a six-out isn’t it?
R-Happen a couple of six-outs.
[We’re into old measures here. The word ‘gill’ was often used when ordering half a pint of beer but a gill actually was a quarter of a pint. A ‘six-out’ measure was used for spirits, this was six measures out of a gill or quarter pint. This was the standard legal measure for selling spirits. A double was two six-outs and so from what Ernie says, a noggin was equal to a double. However, Zupko, who is my bible in these matters says that under the Imperial System, a noggin was a quarter of a pint.]
How about your brothers, did they smoke?
R-Fred never smoked in his life, never. Wilson smoked like a factory chimney, Like me.
Did anyone in the family gamble?
R-Oh we all gambled. Me mother used to back a mixed double, a tanner reversed and a tanner double. This was when things bucked up a bit you know. A bit of brass coming in, there were no bingo, there were just horse racing. No football coupons.
Street betting ‘ud be illegal then wouldn’t it, where did she put a bet on?
R-It were, it were, bobbies used to raid the bookies places but they always seemed to know when they were coming.
Where did you go to put your bets on?
R-Fred Ralph’s, bottom of Queen Street. But early days, he used to take bets in his house on John Street and one of my earliest recollections is taking a bet for me aunt Edith who used to come and clean for me mother, well for us, for half a crown a week when me mother were weaving. She came up one day and it were Grand National day and she says to me, Eh Ernie, there’s a horse running in the Grand National and I do fancy it. I says well, back it! She says well, I want sommat for George’s tea. That were her husband George. She says I think I’ll have sixpence each way on it. I says put a shilling each way on it. She says Eh, I don’t know. I went on, I says you might be lucky. So I took this shilling each way to Fred Ralph’s and it won at a hundred to one. I can remember, George, he got a new cap. Oh, they were living off the fat of the land. Hell fire!, she’d have a fiver for a win and happen a quarter or a third for a place, there’d be about seven quid back. What a day that’d be, they were millionaires for the day! Eh, George’s new cap!
That Fred Ralph, would he be any relation to the milkchap Ralph, May Ralph’s husband, what were his name?
R-It were his father, Arthur Ralph.
That’s it. Arthur were a big racing man as well weren’t he.
R-And Fred Ralph had a bullet right through the centre of his hand, out of the Great War and all his bone were shoved up here, [indicates hand] and his hand were like that. He weren’t a bad bloke.
Aye, can you remember having a radio?
R-No, t’first thing we ever had in that line were a crystal set.
[Crystal sets were the first form of radio. Called ‘wireless’ because there were no wires. They were very easily made, in fact when I was a lad we used to make our own.]
Well, that’s the same thing, wireless.
R-Well, similar, but used to pick static up and we used to say Listen, it’s Geraldo! [Geraldo was a famous bandleader in the interwar years.]
Where did you get that, can you remember.
R-No, I don’t know, I think it might have been, aye, it might be about, still on John Street, I’d be happen 13 year old or something like that. We used to have a cat’s whisker and a crystal and one or two other bits and pieces.
Where did you generally play, outside the house?
R-Oh, on Calf Hall Road or Rocky Road (Cavendish Street which was unmade) always round that area. Used to drive all the residents crazy.
Play around the dam a lot did you, up at Clough and…..
R-Well in summer aye, we used to go round the dam at Clough. There were always someone watching you know. You used to get young crows in there and try and bring them up and tame them. There were a plantation there.
Yes, there’s still a lot of trees up back there.
R-Ah, but they’ve chopped ‘em all down now but there’s a lot of little trees.
Aye between there and Ouzeldale. Who did you play with?
R-Oh a gang of lads, the Wapping Shincrackers they called us. A gang of buggers you might say but no damage like there is today, if there were any damage done it were accidental.
Aye, no vandalism but plenty of mischief.
R-Oh plenty of mischief, plenty, we used to go stealing eggs and we used to take a little child with us, about two years old, and shove him through t’bob hoil? [Bob hole, the small hole for the hens to get access to the cabin when the door was locked.]
R-Aye, through t’bob hoil, he’d collect the eggs and then we’d be away.
Where was that?
R-All round the countryside.
Aye, anywhere there were eggs.
R-Anywhere, anywhere, aye.
Was there anyone that your mother didn’t like you playing with?
R-Nobody, no. She never objected to anyone we played with. But there were one or two snooty Methodists living round about, they wouldn’t let us play with their lads. But it weren’t long before they used to come and join the Wapping Shincrackers. Aye, they’d risk a good hiding.
Did you ever get into any trouble when you were playing out for being where you shouldn’t have been or owt like that?
R-Well, not police trouble. We’d get into trouble t’same as when we raided Bradley’s orchard every year, in’t Autumn. It were like our annual affair.
Which Bradley were that?
R-Bradleys, manufacturers. We used to go on’t canal bank and over Bradley’s bridge into his orchard. I don’t think you’ll remember Bradley. [There is no bridge called Bradley’s Bridge but there is Banks Bridge and it seems that Bradley, who was a tenant in Bankfield then, may have been living in Bank House, sometimes calle Bank Hall.]
Whereabouts were his house?
R-Well you know the old road?
Brogden Lane?
R-No, not Brogden Lane. You know as you’re going to Skipton, th’Old Road? He lived in one of them. [Greenberfield Lane] Well, his garden used to go down to the canal at the back and he had a good orchard. All sorts, plums, pears, apples, cherries, all the lot. The word ‘ud go round, Bradley’s apples are ripe! We’d be there, it were like an adventure, and then we’d all have belly ache!
Aye, because they wouldn’t be ripe would they.
R-They were nowt!
Apart from getting up to mischief, were there any particular games you might have played.
R-Ah, we’d play tin relieve, like kick a tin and run like hell and we used to play a game called ‘bed stocks’. First of alone bloke ‘ud get up against the wall with his hands on’t wall, bent down and we’d two teams, that were it, happen five on each side. Five would get up against the wall and all the rest used to jump on top of them and when they collapsed they were out.
Did you ever go for walks.
R-Oh walks? Thousands of miles wi’ walks. Oh it were all, in summer it were all walking, we’d set off at t’morning and not come back while late at night.
How far afield did you get?
R-Oh, Rimington, Gisburn. One o’t favourite places were where they have them stones, you know, crossing the river. You go to Marton and straight down the road on to….
New Brighton?
R-New Brighton?
You go down the road going in towards Gargrave, past where the river is.
R-No, [not] past Gargrave, you know where you turn up on to the Settle road happen? What do you call that?
Oh, you mean down to Ribble Bottom.
R-Aye, what do you call it?
Nappa.
R-Nappa, that’s it, that were t’favourite place, we used to go there. Island, we used to camp on t’island sometimes home made tent.
Did you ever get any salmon out?
R-No, I never had a salmon.
Plenty in theer, I’ve had ‘em out of there. It says here bicycle rides but you wouldn’t have a bike would you?
R-Yes, I did have a bicycle but a bit later, half a crown a week, Hopper it were. Aye, it were t’pride and joy.
How old were you then?
R-Oh I’d be sixteen or seventeen then. Well, I were working. I’d been sweeping at …. Well, I learned to weave here [Bancroft] and then to be in regular work in them days you’d to be a Methodist.
Is that right?
R-Yes, must be a Methodist or you’d get laid off. Same as maybe if I were working here, if you worked here you went to th’Independent Methodist.
Aye, at the bottom of Wapping.
R-Aye, if you worked at Brooks’s you went to t’Primitives.
Brooks, which do you call Brooks?
R-Well, they’re out of business now, they were one of the first to go out but they were at Westfield.
That’s it, Brooks, yes I know the name of the firm. When you were out walking, we’ll get on to t’work job later on. When you were out walking did you collect anything? You know, berries, fruit, firewood, you know, owt. I don’t mean sapping! [Sapping is slang for stealing apples from orchards.]
R-Nothing really.
Bilberries?
R-Oh yes, we picked bilberries and blackberries in season.
That’s it aye, firewood?
R-Well, not so much firewood, only for t’Fifth of November time.
And that’d be mostly in’t town wouldn’t it?
R-Round and about.
Old weft box lids?
R-Oh no, mostly trees. You daren’t go near the bloody weft boxes or the skips, there were always someone after your blood if you did. We used to cut canes out you know and make bows.
Is that right. Out of the skips?
R-If you were catched wi’ a penknife you’d be sent to Siberia!
If any of the lads did get into trouble, I mean, there’d be the odd ones every now and again, what happened to them? Say the police got someone, what happened to them?
R-Do you know, I can’t honestly remember any of me mates that I grew up with getting into trouble with the police. Honest to God. There were enquiries about windows being broken and things like that, but stealing, they were buggers you know but maybe they were very lucky and never get catched. Raymond Riding, I mentioned him before, he went to pay me mother’s shop bill at Bonny’s with a pound note. Bonny gave him change, maybe the bill were about seventeen and six, he gave him change for the pound and all. So Raymond takes this change to me mother and rounds us up, he had a pound note. He said he’d, we used to go digging where they emptied the [silt from the ] grates to find a tanner or a bob many a time.
Aye, where the gully emptier had gone.
R-That’s right aye. Somebody said what have you got. A pound note he said, he said he’d been digging. Ah, I thought, it’s a bit fishy is that, I thought it’d be tattered and torn or wet or sommat you know. Anyway we’d all go to Earby to the pictures, six of us and we called at Atkinson’s for a cap apiece out of this pound. Goes down on the train to Earby, went to the Empire pictures, a bag of nuts apiece and toffees or whatever were going. Back on’t train to Barlick and when we got to Barlick Raymond’s mother were waiting on the station. Oh Christ he says, Me mother’s waiting, she must have found out about this pound. It were Bonny’s pound and she were waiting for him. She didn’t half hammer him, gave him a good hiding and he had to pay the pound back out of what he earned, happen a copper a week. But we had a good afternoon.
[You got] a new cap out o’t job.
R-A new cap apiece.
Did anybody in the family ever go fishing?
R-And not with a rod and line, they either tickled them or limed ‘em. We had no time for sitting there all day long, no.
Now then, you’re talking about liming ‘em. Tell me about that.
R-Well, a stream wi’ trout in it, you put some lime in an old sock and take it upstream and anchor it under a stone. As water were running through t’lime it were going down the bed. Well, t’trout used to, they mustn’t have liked it, they used to bobble to t’top and they got, just picked ‘em out.
That’s it, and blowing ‘em up.
R-Well, blowing ‘em up, you know about carbide? You will do. Get some carbide, put it in a bottle with a screw top and a drop of water. Screw it down and chuck it wherever the fish are, and make sure the bottle’s sunk. Happen tie a stone to the neck. After a time the gas will work its way up and blow up and t’fish ‘ud be at t’top.
So it weren’t fishing for sport, it were a question of going fishing for sommat to eat.
R-Oh aye, and Savage has allus been a bloke to buy something like that. Always, in fact there’s fishermen today taking trout. I know a young woman who picked a salmon up, you were talking about picking salmon up, she picked it up out of the water and sold it to Savage.
When were that, were it a long time ago.
R-Well it must have been a long time ago, she were only a girl at the time and she’s my age. Well, she’d sell it to old Savage.
How much would she get for the salmon, any idea?
R-She might get ten bob.
In them days?
R-Eh, it’s always been an expensive fish, salmon.
Yes, it has. Now it says here ‘What happened to the fish’. Well, what happened to the fish?
R-Oh, they went in’t pot.
Did your mother ever go out. Do you know, did she ever go out at night?
R-Do you know, looking back, I don’t think she ever did.
Never went out.
R-Never.
When you think you know, the life your mother must have had……..
R-Aye, well she weren’t [alone], there were a lot of people like her, they were content with their lot I suppose.
Yes, why were they content Ernie. Because nowadays, I mean, people wouldn’t stand it would they.
R-Oh well, we’ve been educated since then haven’t we? I mean it says in the Bible about kicking against the pricks? They must have realised it were no good, moaning and groaning, and there was a lot of drunkenness in those days.
Now, there used to be a saying, that the quickest way out of Salford was four pints of ale. Do you think that that is why there was so much drunkenness?
R-I fancy so, people drowning their sorrows.
You’d say there was a lot more drunkenness than now?
R-A lot more, a lot more.
Spirits or ale?
R-Oh beer, it’d be beer mostly because it were cheap you know. Well, it were cheap by comparison.
Would you say beer were better then? Strong?
R-Aye it must have been better, but, it’s been better in my time. I mean I like a pint of beer and I remember beer at fourpence a pint, Brown Ale. I think it must have been better. But there wouldn’t be much whisky, they didn’t drink much whisky. Then they used to save up you know. The word ‘ud be passed round, Joe Bloggs is on’t rant, he’s in the Stars. [Seven Stars public house on Church Street.] He might have saved up for twelve months and then he’d go and spend all his money and then go back to work and be teetotal.
Just for one good night out.
R-Well, not just one night, it used to last happen a week, as long as his money lasted, aye.
Yes, as long as the money lasted. When you say that, they deliberately saved up so they could go….
R-With that one aim in view, save up for twelve months and then go on t’rant.
That’d be fairly common?
R-It were.
What, more wi’ men or women?
R-Oh, men.
How about the woman when he were on t’rant?
R-Well, they didn’t bother much about the women did they. I think they were a bad lot really, my father’s generation. Women were chattels in a way, this women’s lib today, I’m in total agreement you know.
Yes. Would you say, I know it was hard for men but would you say it was harder for women in your childhood in the twenties?
R-I think so yes, because most of the women went to work and then they had their housework to do.
Were there any men who would do a lot round the house with their wives?
R-Oh I don’t think they did owt! They were too busy out boozing and pigeon flying and bowls and owt that were going I suppose. They didn’t, I don’t think they were concerned about their wives and children.
After the first world war, if you look at the figures, there were a lot more men than women, with it being so many men of marriageable age killed during the war and badly injured like your father. Was it striking at all? The number of single women that there were about, did you notice it?
R-Oh no, I never noticed it. Oh, in my area, the Wapping area, there’d be as many what they call ‘living tally’ as married. But we were children, didn’t know then like what they were. But they always used to say that they used to run away from Blackburn. Same as Mrs Jones and Mr Smith ‘ud run away to Barnoldswick and call themselves, maybe Roberts, I don’t know. But there were, they used to say a prestige sign was a lavatory brush hung up on the wall.
Aye, outside the toilet.
R-Aye, they did tell a tale of a tackler coming from Blackburn and he got a house somewhere, it’d be in the Wapping area because that’s always been the poverty area, or it were in them days. Anyway he run away from Blackburn with this woman and they got a house and he went working Monday morning and when he went home Monday dinner time, his wife or his tally woman says Eh Joe, we’ll have to get a lavatory brush. He says What’s a lavatory brush? She says A lavatory brush for cleaning t’lavatory. Oh well he says, get one. So she got a lavatory brush, she were keeping up wi’t Jones’s, there weren’t much in them days. Now after a day or two she says How do you like the lavatory brush Joe? Oh he says, I think I’d rather have paper. [laughter] But there were none o’ that keeping up with the Joneses, I mean we were all in’t same boat. I don’t think envy, I think it would have to be invented, that word envy, I never heard anyone say Eh, look at that, I wish I had one. There were nowt like that.
Would you say that there was any sort of hierarchy amongst the people that were down? I mean, did some of the neighbours look on themselves as better than the others for some reason? Say a woman that were married and had lived wi’ the same chap for twenty five years, would she look on herself as being better than a tally woman?
R-No, I’d hardly think so. Everyone had breeches arse out, if your breeches arse were in you were an outcast. It were as simple as that. Aye, I don’t know, they were happy days in a way, they were all slaves being exploited by the same people as were exploiting t’niggers. But they didn’t realise it, they must not have done. And I mean, they were happy, they must have been happy in a way.
Yes, it’s a very similar thing you know, they always say that one of the worst slums in Salford, a real slum you know, and it returned a Conservative candidate solid for decades and decades.
R-There were a Tory here for decades.
Aye, that’s it, wi’ being in with the Skipton Division.
R-Aye, farmers and the Skipton vote. I mean, I’ve backed a loser all me life, I’ve never backed a winner not when I voted. There’s never been a socialist in this area.
No, that’s right, there’s never been a Labour man in this area.
R-No. Every time I puts me cross down it’s wasted but it still goes down.
Yes, there you are. Did any of the family go to church regular?
R-The only time we went to church were at Whitsuntide, and it were coffee and bun day. And we used to enter t’races and win t’races if they’d let us. Not me personally, but there were one or two good runners amongst us lot. But this Whitsuntide, I remember, there’d be a dozen of us all went to’t Calf Hall Methodist do and we sat there. We had to go to’t service like before the nosh up. All sat there wi’ clean faces and Mr Kay, a local preacher said, All those boys who haven’t been to this chapel in the last month, leave. So we had to leave and I think that put me off religion for the rest of me life. I mean, how could he deny twelve poor lads and lasses coffee and a bun and a bit of fun? He went down in my little book did that chap that day, he did that. And he were a weaver. Aye.
So you didn’t go to Sunday School?
R-No.
What sort of people would you say went to chapel?
R-Well, I think a lot of ‘em went under duress, they’d either go to chapel or be out of work and that’s a true statement.
Oh aye, I can believe it. I mean there’s a famous case at Harle Syke, if you didn’t go to chapel you couldn’t work at Queen Street.
R-Aye, t’same applied in Barnoldswick.
Yes, if you didn’t go to the chapel up the road you couldn’t go there. That’s why all the weavers from there are buried at this chapel.
R-Oh aye.
Would you think that the people that did go to chapel, did they mix well together or did some of them think they were a cut above the rest?
R-No, I think there were a lot of back-biting, they’re a funny lot, Methodists, a queer lot. In my experience, selfish people. So long as I am all right Jack, that’s the way it worked. I suppose there is good ones amongst ‘em but I’ve never met any of them. I met some mean buggers in my time and they’ve all been Methodists, nip a bloody currant in four they would. There were a typical example in there [Bancroft], Clarke, meanest bloke I’ve ever known in my life and very religious. [Stephen Clarke, one of the tacklers at Bancroft.] No, religion has been a very small part of my life, very small.
Apart from the Sally Army.
R-Well aye, Sally Army, but I don’t reckon t’Sally Army as a religion.
Yes I know what you mean. The only reason I said that was because, of course you said pawnbroking was a religion to you, it’s a different way of using the word. In your own mind, is there any difference between people that went to church and people who went to chapel?
R-No difference. Only people who went to church ‘ud be better off than people that went to chapel, materially.
SCG/07 June 2001
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