THIS TAPE HAS BEEN RECORDED ON AUGUST 11 1978 IN THE ENGINE HOUSE AT BANCROFT. THE INFORMANT IS ERNIE ROBERTS, TACKLER AND THE INTERVIEWER IS STANLEY GRAHAM.
Now then we are going to start tonight with .. this is a different do completely. and we are going to, we are going to start with .. we'll do Mary first and then we'll do your pictures. Now .. you'll find this is a bit different than what we have been doing, but you've .. we'll soon get into it. We'll see how we go on, because I've not done this with anybody before and we'll just see what, we'll just see how it works out.
R‑ Aye
Now these picture are all from what we call the 'Bancroft Folio’, this Folio of pictures has been bought by one or two people and there is no doubt that one or two more'll buy its hopefully. Now then, what we are dealing with
(50)
tonight is the weaver’s section of the Bancroft Folio and it's the first picture numbered one, obviously, in the weavers section. Now then, you tell me who this weaver is and what she's doing here.
R‑ Well this is Mary Wilkins, a very skilful weavers in my experience I should say. Fifty years in textiles, she is as good or better than any weaver I've seen weaving this type of goods. She is very skilful and swift, a Godsend to the bosses. If I had ten weavers like Mary running one hundred looms I'd be a millionaire in no time.
Aye and of course she was one of your weavers on your set.
R‑ That's right .
Yes And she's just left .. to go to work at Johnson’s.
R‑ Yes for more money and better conditions.
Aye, and do you know what she said to me when she went? I said to her “Why are you going?" And she said that the main thing was because the floor were clean down there.
R ‑ Aye I can believe it. Yes, that girl were clean when she come in at Monday and she were clean when she went out at Friday.
Did you see how she left her looms?
R- Spotless.
Aye, I’ve some pictures of it. And what is she doing on that picture there Ernie, number 1?
R - She in readying a copy or pirn, taking that spare thread off the bottom; and then she'll load the shuttle, thread it and start the loom.
Yes, now you said something to me before, about … or turn over to number 2.
(100)
Now you were saying that that's something that you don't see.
R- Well that's modern weaving, the old fashioned cop was mule spun so there were no spare on t’bottom. That thread there .. she is cleaning is what we call a 'welsh hat’ pirn. [So called because the paper pirn with a metal bottom looked rather like an elongated traditional welsh hat]
That's it, that's the metal piece at the bottom of the pirn in't it? Aye.
R – That’s right. You must take that off or else when it comes to the end the weft'll break and make what they call a broken pick, a bad place.
Aye ... I can sit and look at Mary all night.
R - Oh aye. But apart from looking nice and clean she has a nice personality.
Right, number 3.
R - Well number 3, that's just like another movement, loading t’shuttle, she's cleaned the bottom and she's pushed the pirn on to the shuttle peg and number 4 she's closed it and she is going to…..
Aye she is, but she’s drawing .. number 4 she’s closed it, and she is drawing some off there in’t she?
R- Aye just a short length so that when she .. inserts, is that t’proper word do you think?
Yes aye. When she puts it
R- …Into the box she can wrap that end round t’temple so that it'll hold you see when it starts picking.
Aye so that she, so that when one pick’s woven through and [it’s started weaving] she's got that tag end hanging out and she can take that tag off.
R - That's right.
She knows where that tag is.
R – Aye.
Aye. Of course apart from anything else the thread has got to be anchored, the weft's got to be anchored at one end or it won’t draw off the shuttles will it?
(150)
(5 min.)
And there she is wrapping it round it (the shuttle), isn't she?
R- Aye, well that's a weaver’s trick. She wraps it round the shuttle and puts it on the stand. If she didn't the weft’d be hanging down and likely to get catched in a moving part and clog it up or clutter it up.
Aye, that's it.
R - You want to have a look at fat Lil’s looms! (another of Ernie’s weavers, not a good one.)
Is that right?
R- Aye, every shaft, ends, miles of it.
Aye. And there she is putting it on t’tray at t’end of t’loom in't she? Aye.
R - Aye. . . . She looks very thoughtful. She’s thinking about pay day, maybe it's pay day.
She might have been thinking about you Ernie.
R- Well ...
Now then, number 7.
R- Number 7. She is finding , oh she's just put t’shuttle in t’box, look.
Yes.
R- It’s a bang up loom is this. Can you see that frog there, that blade?
Ah, that' s just below her right arm, just below, just below the slay, there’s a blade sticking out, aye.
R- That's right. Aye that's right. Well, every time the shuttle goes into the box it lifts that and it comes over this stopper here, or frog we call it. So she has her finger on, we call it the finger, on, behind the box and she pushes that back so that shuttle's going easier you see, there’s springs on there.
Yes, that's it.
R- Holding this stop rod down.
So with her right hand she's holding that finger, behind the slay, to make it easier to, and she pushing with her left hand, she is pushing it in with her finger.
R - That's right she can flick it in you see, through that, or otherwise she’d have to shove it in and make her finger sore.
.Aye that's it. And I've noticed Mary sometimes, when she is weaving, she has a little bit of loom spindle with a piece of wood on the end of it.
R- That's right.
And she uses that sometimes doesn’t she? Aye.
R- To shove ‘em up. You must shove that shuttle right up to the picker.
(200)
so that when it picks it gets a full pick. Gets a full blow 'first time it goes over.
R- That's right, if it were loose in the box, (the shuttle would only go) half way see, it'd catch and that’d make a trap. And here she is, ready to commence operations, shoving t’knocker on ...
Yes, with her right hand.
R’ Aye, which shoves t’belt onto the fast pulley, off the loose pulley, and away she goes.
Yes. Now this is picture number eight, why has she got her left hand on top of the ?. Now what do you call that, that she’s got her left hand on?
R- That's .. well, the slay cap or hand shelf... the reed fits in there.
Yes. Now why has she got her hand on top of that?
R- To give it a .. bit of a pull, an extra spurt.
Aye. Is that to make sure that she gets a good pick? First pick?
R - That's right.
Aye. Because a lot of these belts are a bit slack, and when you first knock it in it's not forced to just grab it first time. Aye.
R- That’s right. They did invent an egg shaped pulley you know for that at one time, I don't think it worked very well.
Egg shaped! Is that right?
R- Oh aye, aye it's true. Aye. What’s that word that describes egg shaped?
Elliptical.
R - Oh aye, egg shaped.
Egg shaped bloody pulley ..,
R- Oh it’s true Stan, oh yes, gospel truth that is.
And that loom that she is on, there now, I know it isn't a dobby, what's that motion on top of the loom level with the rest? This is picture number eight.
R- Well that aye.
That motion with the leather straps on, now what's that?
R- Well that’s a spring top, you could put six staves on there, and weave double shaft staves or sateens or what we call janes. And if you are not using the spring top you put these doll heads on, that's a roller top on them two brackets ...
At the front, yes..
R- And that weaves plain.
So that's just weaving with two staves that loom?
(250)
R – Well aye. It is, that's what I call a scotch dobby, two staves. But it isn't a right good idea, but it works. You see, that one has four staves, two twos.
Yeas that's it, yes.
R – Well, you make better cloth with two twos, because you can slate them, that's what they call slating when they slope two staves like that.
Aye I see, those staves .. now, wait a minute, when you, you mean that the two staves that are next to each other are sloped.
R- That’s right.
So .. on picture number 7, we're looking at picture number 7 now, you can see those heald staves just above the level of Mary's right arm . And those heald staves if you look very carefully, they're knotted on with those strings and they are not knotted on level, they are knotted on at a slight slant backwards.
R- That's right, slating they call that.
Aye. Now, what's the advantage of that Ernie?
R- Well you get more cover on the cloth.
More?
R- Cover.
What do you mean by cover?
R – Well, how can I explain cover? It fills the cloth up. I mean, cover. How can I explain cover, can’t, don't you understand what I mean?
(10 min)
What do you mean? It makes the cloth more dense for the same pick ?
R- That's right, aye. Squarer. You see, this scotch dobby .. you get a lot of uneven weaving, you must .. if you have one of them two staves, they must be spot on, threaded evenly, or you’ll get uneven weaving.
Ah, I see, or else you'll get it weaving, like, two pairs of weft each time, instead of one, you’d be getting like a pairs and a pair, and a pair.
R- Aye. That's it, aye that's it, we call it ‘twoing’ that. But same as this, it’s like a four to one chance, and this is only a two to one chance.
Aye, I see.
R- Four to one chance of having good cloth, two to one.
That's it,, aye. So in actual fact the construction of that cloth isn't forced to be any different with four staves on there, than that with two staves on number 8.
R- No.
It's just that with doing it like that you are getting a better chance of getting an even cloth.
R- That's right.
(300)
Aye. Right, turn over and go on to number 9, see what we can make of this. Now then, she has set her loom on and it's running, we can tell that 'cause it's blurred. Now, what is she doing here?
R - Well she is, she is cutting that bit of weft off that she's wrapped round the temple to anchor the weft when the loom started.
Yes. Now the thing that strikes me about that .. she is cutting that weft tag off at the opposite end to the box that we saw her putting that shuttle in. Nowt when I come to think .. I don’t know whether all weavers do it, but I've seen Mary do that. She puts the shuttle in at the far side
R- Off side that. Well, when t’weft's finished, this particular cloth she in making, it'll be a pick finder see? So when t’loom's stopped the pick’s fast, it's in the opposite shed to what it should be. So she turns t’loom over and that pick comes loose and she puts the shuttle in, makes a continuous length of weft, and puts it in at the off side.
So, let me explain that to you the way I have understood it.
R- Well.
Wait a minute, we are still on this picture number 9 now, when she, when that last shuttle ran out .. it’s going across the loom.
R- You can see it there .. woven off.
Yes, that's it, aye, woven off, this one that's in this tray at this end of the loom. Now, as that shuttle was going across…
R- That's called the shuttle stand.
Shuttle stand, right. Well that shuttle that’s in the shuttle stand, at this near side of the loom that we are looking at on number 9. That shuttle when it was going across, it ran out and now, as I understand it, it left that piece of weft in and as it left it in, the loom carried on. Before it stopped it carried on and the shed altered and trapped that piece of weft in.
R- That's right, aye.
and .. so what you are saying is that Mary, before she attempts to put another shuttle in, turns that loom back one pick so that it opens the shed out again, on the same pick that that ran out.
R - That's right.
And she lays her shuttle in then, at the far end and knocks it down through the shed doesn't she.
R- Well .. the proper way would be to take that loose piece of weft out altogether and put the shuttle in, which .. I mean, it's possible that it did finish there you see?
Yes, yes I see.
R- But what, what they try and do is... well, just have a continuous piece of weft.
Yes, I’ve seen her sometimes .. tell me if it's the same thing, I've seen her sometimes put the shuttle in in the middle of the weft.
R- That’s so, yes.
So her weft tag then, isn't going to be at the end near the temple, it's
going to be in the middle of the cloth, but that is where the other one ran out is it?
R- That's right.
So that her weft tag in where the last piece of weft ran out, so when she nips it off there as it’s coming through the looms it's just like an end stuck out of the cloth, she just cuts that off there with the scissors, that means that that pick, (the place where the weft ran out will be invisible) and that's what you call a pick found cloth is it?
R- That's right.
Aye. I've seen her do that and I've wondered why she's done that. Jut as it happens in that one picture evidently it must have run out at that end because knowing Mary she’ll have put it, she'll be doing it right.
R- Oh aye.
(15 min)
And I've noticed with these temples there's nearly always a piece of string tied round, what do you call this, where the cloth runs over the front of the loom, before it goes under the sand roller? Now what do you call that piece, that piece of cast iron that always gets polished up?
R - Oh aye, that's the breast beam.
Breast beam. Now I’ve noticed these temples here, they nearly always have them knotted up with a piece of string on to the bar don't they? What’s the idea of that?
R – Well, that's .. you can call it Heath Robinson or Bancroft. The reason there is a piece of string on there .. there are some little squares fastened to this temple bar that get worn away. And there is no spares, so a piece of string comes in very handy. That's all that is.
Oh I see. Aye, there you are. You mentioned something else there, we are still on picture number 9, you mentioned something else, you said that there, that Mary was working at the off side of the loom. Now, I take it that the off side then is the side furthest away from the driving pulley, is that right?
R - That's right. This is a right-hand loom.
In other words the pulley, driving pulley is on the right hand-side. Yes?
R- That's right, that's t’knocker on you see?
Yes. So, if the knocker on and the driving pulley were on the left, it’d be a left hand loom?
R - Driving pulley is always on the knocker on side. But there is left hand looms and right hand looms, so that, I mean, it were, it were invented by some bloody inventor you see. Left hand they go like this, left hand, right hand so that she can turn around from this right hand loom and commence operations immediately on the left hand loom.
Yes. Now… ah but the thing is that on that left hand loom, the knocker on and the pulley’ll be on the left hand-side of the loom as you're facing it, won't they.
R – That’s right, aye.
And on a right hand loom they are on the right hand-side.
R – Aye, and incidentally all Mary’s right hand shuttles were what we call ‘peeled’. When she takes her shuttle out she bounced it on the church.
Yes well, you’ve lost me completely now. Now then, come on, when she takes the shuttle out ...
R - Right hand loom she takes it out and bounces it across here. Instead of… I mean it shouldn’t happen this, but it’s a sign of a good weaver. It must be because I’ve had odd weavers before that have been the same. She’s that bloody quick pulling them out she doesn’t lift it out, she drags it out, and drag’s it across this … you know, conglomeration here.
Right, now where t’knocker on is, where the knocker on lever goes down you said church , that’s the church is it?
R - Well we call that church, I don't know why. If you look at all Mary’s right hand looms, (the shuttles) on the back edge it's peeled off.
And that's with pulling them out so quick, she doesn't, instead of lifting them up in the air and putting them down she just drags them across and drops them in the tray, aye.
R- That’s it aye. Just have a look sometimes.
Yes, right, we are motoring again. So, we're on .. number 10 now, picture, number 10 in the weaving section. Now Mary is just …
R- She is going to start this loom.
Yes that's it, so her empty shuttle there, you can't see it, it'll be in the tray up there won’t it?
R- No, That’s right.
And she is just going to start this loom up. And this, actually, is the same sort of loom that we were looking at before.
R - This is a left hand loom.
Yes, but it's a left hand ...
R- Opposite that other right hand loom, this one.
(450)
That's it, yes. Aye it is, yes. Now then, picture number 11. Now, you tell me what she's doing there on picture number 11.
R- Well, it looks like she's started t'loom, and she's just going to twitch this wheel here, this is a very strong material, and she is going to twitch it a pick or two, to take a bit of spare up.
So she is actually going …..
R - she is just going to put her hand down top to turn that wheel there.
To put a bit, her right hand, she is just going to turn that bottom wheel and put a little bit of tension on the cloth is she?
R. - That's right.
Aye. Yes. So her shuttle's in that far box, ready to start that loom up, that loom isn't actually running there.
R- Don't you think so? Could be. She could have started it and … could give it a twitch.
Do you know, I think that loom could he running, it's just caught it on t’back of the pick hasn't it?
R- Because they do stop on every pick you know.
Yes that's it, aye. And if you look, I'm just looking at the way this leather’s bent at this picking band, this side here, it just looks to me ….
R- That’s right, it is just going to pick now.
It just looks to me as if it’s just going to pick, and I don't know, but that shuttle's probably just coming into the box.
R- Aye, it is aye.
That shuttle’s probably just coming into the box. Now then, that loom’s running there, and what's she doing there? Is she pulling the weft tag off at that end,.,,
R - She could be.
Aye, this is picture number 12, I’m not right sure just what she is doing there.
R- I think that’s what she’s doing.
Aye, pulling the weft tag off. Now, picture 13, that loom is either still running or just stopped, but at the moment she is filling the shuttle with a fresh cop that she’d taken out before, isn’t she?
R- Aye. That’s true.
That's it. She’s got it in her hand, she is just filling that shuttle. On the next one, picture number 14…
R- That loom's stopped.
Yes, well it's stopped, she's got both shuttles out, hasn’t she?
R – That’s right, she’s taken this shuttle out, weft’s broken, so she is rethreading it to start it up again. To weave t’rest, to weave t’rest of that cop off you see.
Aye, you can see ... Yes, it’s only half a cop isn’t it? And the full shuttle that she just filled is in the tray at the far side of the loom. Aye,
R - That's true.
That's it. Now, picture 15.
R- She is away there.
(500)
Well, her hand's moving that fast .. actually there, that blur, she is, her hand's just moving back to pop that shuttle in, as we'll see on the next picture. It’s just caught or that loom's stopped there, but her hand's moving that fast that you can't see it because the [exposure was very long] .. you can see the shed lights were on, the light were very bad that day. There you are
R- Aye…
So on picture 16 you can see that shuttle.
R - That's that half cop.
..with just half a cop. And the way she putting it in in middle of the shed, well, not in the middle but into the shed there .. that's going to be where it broke. Isn’t it?
R- Aye. Aye she has, she has the weft there in her fingers, look, if you look closely.
Aye, will she be holding both pieces there?
R- She'd be pulling that to open t'shed, to open them threads, so as she can find the exact place to put that shuttle.
Aye, that's it, aye. Aye, that's it, if she pulls that broken end it'll be so that she knows just where to put it. So she is popping that shuttle back into the, into the loom. And then on picture 17 ...
R - She is away.
She is setting that loom on again, she has set it on.
R- Aye. You see she has her hand on t'slay cap or hand shelf, on with the knocker on give it a pull, and away it goes.
Very good Mary. Ah now then, 18, we are on a different kettle of fish altogether. Now you tell me what Mary’s doing there on that beam, on this, number 18?
R- Well .. aye, these ends, this, this like rope. That means there are three or four ends there, spare, in t’warp you see. So she is running them round .. you'd make a [rope] .. it takes spare ends right round the beam, and the friction of this beam going round carries them round and round and round. So it like, keeps .. well, you are not supposed to have double ends in plain cloth, not this quality, these would be .. you couldn't take them in, they'd weave in the cloth but it wouldn't .. you know, it’d look a mess.
Aye, so them spare ends would leave a mark down the cloth.
R - That's right, aye.
Now, on this picture number 18. What's these two rails that the warp’s going over, it's going under the first one and over the second one at the back of the loom, what’s that piece of ….
(550)
R – Well, that’s what they call threading, that's a bearer, and on the end of the loom there is an eccentric pulley, and every time the loom gets to top, what we call top centre, this pulley takes t'slack up and keeps these ends, you know, tensioned.
Aye, so that bearer, that top one that the warp's going over, is actually moving backwards and forwards as the loom's, running.
R- That’s right. Aye.
Just slightly. And what are these that are further into the warp?
R- Well, them's slay rods. You put them in a certain way, ends in t’four heald staves .. first and third go under t’big rod, that's the back one, and second and last go under the front rod, they wouldn't weave without them rods.
So that, in effect, that's making a shed.. it's making the shed that is going to happen at the heald before it gets there. Aye.
R- That's it. There is an essential part of weaving them, them rods.
Yes. Aye. And picture 19, Mary is doing .. what? She is fulfilling the main function of the weaver
R - That's right.
(25 min)
… She is putting somebody else's mistake right.
R- Well, I wouldn't say that. It's always .. I means you get breakages.
Now there is a bit she is, it is a broken end isn't it she’s in taking up?
R– Aye, it's a broken end. I mean, if there were no broken ends you didn't .. hardly 'need weavers and she is taking them ends back where they broke from.
That's it, so in her left hand, the one with the wedding ring obviously, she's got a reed hook in her hand, hasn't she?
R- Aye.
And what’s she doing with that reed hook?
R- She is threading that broken end back through the heald and reed.
Yes. So she’ll push that reed hook through the proper hole in that heald, where that end ought to come through.
R - That's right, ‘eye’ they call it.
Eye? That's it, eye, And with her right hand she'll just find the broken thread at the back, hook it into the reed hook and then pull it through. And her scissors lay there ready to cut everything off. Actually if I remember rightly … I’ll tell you, yes, these weren't her looms.
R- Weren’t they?
No, these were that lad's, do you remember that lad that got killed on the motorbike that learned with her?
R- Aye!
They were his looms, he had some ends down and she went down to take them up, yes.
R- Oh aye. She’s still on the job there.
Yes, this is the same, picture number 20 is the same, same loom, same breakage but there she's got the reed hook through the reed hasn't she?
R – The reed, aye.
She’s taking that end that she’s brought through the heald, er, yes, t’heald.
R- Yes, through what, through the eye of the heald, and now she’s going to take it through the reed.
(600)
That’s it.
R - It has to be in the right place or it won't weave.
That’s it, and there.
R- Well, that’s the operation complete, she is just threading it under, and she'll start that loom up and away we go.
If I remember rightly, with that being so close to the edge, she trapped that end under the temple.
R - Could do.
Aye, so picture 21, Mary is just trapping that end under the temple. And the temple, what’s the temple in there for Ernie?
R – Well, that's to get, it’s to hold the cloth, straight and firm, and that would pull it out widthways you see.
Aye, ‘cause the tendency with cloth when it's woven is for it to shrink in, isn't it?
R - Oh yes aye.
You lose width
R - Oh aye.
And so your temples are there to put a strain on the cloth and try and counteract that loss in width, aren't they?
R- That's it. And also hold its so that t’warp threads are going on to t'slay board, you see, you couldn't do with ‘em going all over the place, the shuttle’d fly out, that's what temples are for.
Yes. Now, shuttles flying out, what's the main cause of shuttles flying out?
R - Main cause .. oh I should say ends broken and fast in t’shed so that instead of t’shed opening when shuttle’s arriving, it stays closed, and the shuttle flies out, but you can get lots of causes, pickers broke, shuttles that go like canal boats .. no, not canal boats, canoes.
Canoes?
R- Aye, they are supposed to be flat on the bottoms but constant friction shapes them like a canoe. Have you never seen us flattening ‘em out, with a scraper?
So you scrape t’bottom of shuttles to get ‘em .. actually a shuttle’s got to be aerodynamically correct hasn’t it, it's travelling that fast it's like a little aeroplane.
R - I don't know about a little aeroplane.
Aye. Well, it's .. and this one, picture 21 is a picture of the picking stick, isn't it, you are getting a good idea of picking stick and leathers. What's the name of t'leather that goes from the end of the picking stick down to the picker, you can just see it in this picture, at top end of t’picker.
R – Well, there is three leathers there, this is a picking band, long leather, and it goes under ..
The middle one? Aye .
R- That one on top of the, fastened to the .. that's called t’bonnet.
(30 min)
On’t picking stick? Aye.
R - Aye. That makes sure that t’picking band doesn't fly off t’end of the picking stick, and then it goes through a short leather, and the short leather in its turn goes round the picker.
That's it.
R - Long leather goes through t'short leather, and there is a wood peg put in and that's it.
Aye, t'wood peg stops the long leather coming back through t'short leather. Aye.
R – That’s it. Simple.
Aye, simple.
R- A lot of thought ran into it, somebody had brains at one time.
Aye, Oh aye, still people with brains about. And there’s picture 22, Mary working at … That’s it, she is on her own loom now, she is on one of her own looms, and she is, that's just a picture of her bringing an end through from the other side. Only there again, her hand's moving that fast you can't see the reed hook, but you can see that she's just drawn that end over the slay cap.
R –That’s it, aye.
And this on the front of the slay cap, this .. bent piece of quarter inch iron rod that we can see just in front of Mary's left hand, that's actually a shuttle guard isn't it.
R- That's right. It doesn't keep the shuttle in but, it tries to keep it down if shuttle happens to fly out. There's one or two one-eyed weavers about you know,? But that's original, well, I don’t know about original, but all my life it's been that type of shuttle guard. I mean, they've tried different ideas but there has never been a success yet.
There are some, that you can hinge up out of the way, weren’t there. and they are a fool of a thing.
R- That’s right. Oh aye, dangerous. But it's surprising you know, all my life I have been in textiles and I've never known a serious accident. Shuttles have flown out and bruised people, but .. and 1’ve heard about the odd eye being knocked out, but I've never known one. And I mean, when that shuttle leaves t’box it's free.
That's right.
R- But it comes out in such a way, and everything is set for it .. they tell me that it's going in a circle, everything's going in circles. I mean the sweep on t’board, shuttles are swept, all this is swept round, and if you have ‘em picking right it's going round. Same as , you couldn’t have a slay board level, it just wouldn't do.
That's the piece of wood that the shuttle actually runs on?
R - Aye.
Yes, I know there is a big art, isn't there, to making slays?
R – Oh, it's a very skilful job. When that shuttle leaves t’box it goes downhill and then uphill. Every time it leaves t’box is down and then uphill, and that way as well.
Aye. So centrifugal force is holding it down on to the slay bottom and it's going through if it's travelling like that, it's trying to push on t'slay bottom. Aye. And on that picture 22, as well, there is a card hung on that loom, stuck on a piece of wire, just in front of, on what you call your scotch dobby isn't it?
(700)
R – Aye, it looks like a scotch dobby. Well, that's the 'particulars card’ for everybody's benefit. There's price on it, what counts of weft, how many ends there is in t’reed, width of the cloth, length of the cloth, how many marks, and .. you look at that card and you see, oh well, how many picks there is in t’cloth, everything, counts of weft, counts of twist. It's a record. There is a, there is a government official comes once every blue moon, just to see if the weaver's being twisted.
R - And he can look at that card. look at the pick wheel if he wants to do, and find out if she being twisted or not. More than likely she is.
How does this square up with warps? Like the ones we were talking about today, where you draw more for a stopped loom than you do for having a warp in.
R – Well, them's the rules these days. Aye. Bloody stupid isn't it? But it's true.
Aye. What were we saying? It were one pound?
R - One pound twenty for a stopped loom, and this particular sort this weaver wove last week 68p, and I took this warp to Mona. [One of Ernie’s weavers] She says "I'm not bothered about that" and I say "Well, I'm not bloody bothered either I said - but rules are rules."
So, even in this day and age, apart from time bonus, apart from that they get paid the basic wage, her actual pick bonus on using that loom for a week is, she made 68p on that loom last week, on that, warp. And if there had been no warp in the loom she'd have been paid what they call stop time, and she'd have drawn one pound twenty.
R - That's right.
Which takes a bit of weighing up doesn't it? But I mean, at that wage she is better off with all her looms stopped.
R – Oh, if she'd ten looms stopped she'd be well away, hell she'd have a fortune to come.
(35 min)
Now then, 23 is .. picture number 23. Now this is, this is one that fascinates me actually, because I know that there is a lot of history behind this. Now I know that you don't know a lot about when pick clocks came in because it was during the war .. but just tell me what that is there, that we are looking at on picture number 23.
R - Well that's a pick counter, and new weaving prices aren't by the piece, they get paid per one hundred thousand picket and on that particulars card it should say how much per one hundred thousand picks. At modern places it would do but it doesn't here, it just gives t’piece price.
Oh, that price we have on here is piece price, is it?
R – Aye, aye. But I think they have another, they have another card that tells t’pick price.
And .. tell me, a pick, is that once through the loom?
R – Once, once, once through the loom is one pick.
Aye, so t'shuttle from going from a box, across the loom, and back to that box does two picks.
R - That's right. And every one hundred picks .. same as this is at eight hundred. When it's done another one hundred picks it'll go to nine hundred.
Yes. Aye. So, that's what, roughly that's a minute.
R – And, and when it’s a thousand it'll go up one.
Aye, and the weavers fought for them for years didn’t they?
(750)
R - Oh aye.
Aye. I know they do tell me, I've got to find out about pick clocks, but they do tell me that they fought for them for years and when they got them they never did them any bloody good, now whether that’s right or not I don't know.
R- No, I can .. oh I don't think they would.
Now then, 24 in the last picture of Mary, now you t .. it's obvious what Mary's doing there, but you tell me what she’s doing.
R - Well it'll be dinner time, I mean we start at eight and finish at half past twelve, and she is having a snap, a cup of tea or coffee and what does that look like, boiled ham? She is a boiled ham type.
Aye, boiled ham sarnny. I think at the time she was slimming a bit, for some ungodly reason, I think them were Ryvitas. Aye, I think so. And she looks to have a dirty book that she's borrowed off t’tackler.
R - Oh she has, it's a Harold Robbins.
I think it were, I think it were actually, I were pulling her leg about it. And, I mean, when you come to think .. where else in British industry would you see somebody sat there having her dinner like that? And she always used to sit in exactly the same place. Mind you there in one thing about it, she's always got a clean tablecloths hasn't she?
R - Oh aye, aye. A bit, it'll be a bit sizy, but still it .. and ...
Aye. And that old tackler's bench, just to the right of Mary, that's what she used to use for putting her stuff on, there is a shopping bag on it. But at one time of day, that bench’d be sacred wouldn't it?
R - Oh, sacred aye, it’d be clean, as well. Yes, that were a sanctum sanctorum, don't go near that bench or they'd have your guts for garters.
Aye, that's it. Aye.
R - That's a tackler's bench.
So they used to have benches in the shed and all, at that time.
R- Oh aye, aye. But this place is running down, and running down, and running down. Well ... it's all gone that. Though occasionally you'd use a bench in the shed.
Aye. Funnily enough I'm just looking at something there on this picture number 24 .. On the loom that Mary's leaning on, if you look at the cloth. If you look at the edge of the cloth nearest to us, you'll see it comes up off the cloth roller at the front, over the sand roller, over the breast beam, and just where you come to the edge where, where it's finished weaving, when she stopped it, there is like a wire fork bent down. Now, tell me about that Ernie.
R - Oh aye. Oh well, that's a wonderful invention. That's ... when t’weft finishes .. well, when the loom's running, every time t’weft comes across what we call t’well here, there is a fork grate, and that fork, the slay moves up, and that fork goes through t’fork grate and lifts .. if there is no weft there it stops. Well it's supposed to do or it'll smash it, but it's supposed to do. So when t’weft is finished that fork stops the loom.
Yes, because if it isn't knocked at the front end it doesn’t lift up at the back, and it grabs hold of that catch that it's laid on, doesn't it, and that stops the loom.
R – Aye, that's the hammer.
Yes, hammer.
R - And it’s worked off a cam on the bottom shaft. Every pick, no, every two picks t'cam lifts this hammer and if the forks still there it pulls it off, and the loom stops.
(800)
That's it, because if I have to go to a bearing on a loom, that's the only way I know how to stop a loom, I just put me hand on top of the fork.
R - That's right. But really that's the proper way to stop a loom. Aye.
Aye, aye. Is that right, if you want to stop a loom anyway?
(40 min)
R - That's the right way. I mean .. you could pull all this but if you pull all that .. with weaving light sorts, this fork goes sideways and gets one prong pushed sideways, see, and it closes the prong, so that fork can't go through
Can't go through the grate next time that's what.
R - So it weaves without weft, it won't stop.
Aye, that's it. Aye, if it can't go through the grate even if there's no weft there it'll knock it off each time, and that's what you call weaving without weft. Aye.
R - Oh aye, that’s right.
And I’ve heard, I’ve heard’em come down and all and say that one of them’s stitching, Now, what does that means when they're stitching?
R – Well, that means .. it's making a stitch .. instead of t’weft going through t'shed clean, it's going through t’twist, and making a stitch, so what a tackler does is ., straighten the shed up, or maybe,. Shorten the pick, or may be t’shuttle has gone like a canoe, there is all sorts .. a picker broke.
Yes. Yes, I mean, really, from what I can see of tackling. tackling is, it's .. how can I put it, it’s fifty per cent actual mechanical knowledge and then about another fifty per cent made of experience and just being psychic, because …..
R - Aye well, it's common sense really. Once you learn how all these parts work .. well, I mean, there are variations of course, when a bearing gets worn and things like that, but you always adjust. You, well you , you marry ‘em all, and if they are all married they're working, they make t’cloth.
Now, in the old days, when they were on mule cops, and cops were shorter, they had shorter shuttles, and .. just tell me some of the problems that it caused when mill owners decided to go on to bigger yarn packages, and longer shuttles.
R - Oh well. It does cause problems. When, when you used to .. I mean, an old fashioned shuttle would be at least two inches shorter so you'd more space.
You, you can, you can see that from the shuttle tray can't you.
R- Aye, that.
…how much shuttle hangs over the end of the shuttle tray.
R - That's its that's it, aye, aye.
While the older ones would just sit in it nicely, wouldn't they?
R – Oh, plenty of room plenty of room. And you see, when the loom is picking with this shuttle, it has to pick later so that the shed's opened and shuttle's in. But if it is the shorter shuttle it could ... wait a minute, I'm getting a bit mixed up there.
No, you are right.
R - A longer shuttle's in the shed quicker than a short shuttle.
Yes. So your shed's got to be formed earlier than….
R- That's right.
So in other words the timing of that loom's got to be spot on for a big shuttle.
R - Oh aye.
Now tell me, another thing about that, I mean, really, the reason for going on to longer shuttles was to give them longer weaving times on a shuttle, so that they could get weavers working more looms weren't it? It was one of the things that…
R - That's right, that were part of it.
That were part of it. But when they did it, instead of altering the slays on the looms, altering the boxes, like having them re-slayed to give them more room at each side, they did 'em the cheap way, didn't they? And just carried on with what they had, but it meant that the timing's got to be so much better on that loom.
R - Oh aye. That's right. But they've lots, they've lots of problems today there didn't use to be.
Which . . . Well, that's one of the things that I was on to you when we were on about the size of a tackler’s set. I mean, in the old days, I mean, one of the things which would have meant that .. you know, when they were working on a set of hundred and forty, hundred and forty-four looms one thing which would be in their favour would be working with short shuttles.
R- Oh aye, made a big difference.
And I mean, that’d make a big difference, would it, during the work?
R - Oh aye, must do. Would do, aye. I mean, in my early days as a weaver they were all small shuttles, and we used to kiss 'em and suck t’weft through, through t’eye of the shuttle you see?
Yes, that's it, yes and you had……
R - And, another thing, this is a self threading shuttle, you get problems with these shuttles that you never got with the old fashioned shuttle, because there is a slit here, and the problem is to keep weft in that slit and through t’eye. Many a time ., well that's why they are filled with fur, you never used to see shuttles with fur in, very rare.
When, when there were kissing shuttles? Aye.
R - Just now and again, if you'd a lively weft.
What's the idea of putting that rabbit fur in the shuttle?
R- Oh, it's to control t’weft, to stop it flying about.
Aye, put a brake on it like, just keep it .. that’s it, aye.
R - That's right, clutch . And they won't run without fur
Well done Mary. Right, 1 think we'll leave Mary alone now.
(45 min)
SCG/24 September 2002
7959 words.