THIS TAPE HAS BEEN RECORDED ON THE 28TH OF SEPTEMBER 1978 AT 14 STONEYBANK ROAD, EARBY. THE INFORMANT IS FRED INMAN, TACKLER AND THE INTERVIEWER IS STANLEY GRAHAM.
Right Fred, first thing this week, I've a list of foods here.
R - Aye.
You know, different sorts of food and I’ll just give you one and just tell me whether you had 'em, you know, everyday or every week, once a month or how often you had 'em.
R – Yes..
Let’s see what the job is. Bananas?
R- Oh only occasionally.
You did see bananas though?
R- Yes aye, occasionally.
Yes aye, what were they, Fyffe’s?
R- Canary's.
Canary's aye.
R- Little ones, Canary's.
Aye that's it aye. You used to be able to get them didn’t you, I remember them little sweet ones.
R- Aye they were, aye.
Aye. Rabbit?
R - Well there were rabbit...me father used to do a lot of shooting and rabbiting, there were plenty of rabbits came in the house but I were never carried away with 'em.
Aye.
R - I didn't mind potatoes and gravy but I weren’t carried away with rabbit although me father and mother used to have ‘em like. They’d be made into a rabbit pie.
Yes. When you say you went shooting Fred, were that 12 bore or muzzle loader or what?
R- 12 bore, 12 bore.
Aye, it were a cartridge?
R- Cartridge gun.
Yes, that's it. That would be a hammer gun would it.
R- No, it wore hammerless.
Were it?
R- Aye It wore a grand gun...
It would be a good gun that then.
R- It, you know in them days it were his pride and joy, aye.
Aye it would be if it were hammerless. I mean like just let's get what dates we’re talking about. You were born in 19…
R- 1908.
1908, so this is just after the first world war, isn't it. You'd be happen eight or ten years old.
R- Oh yes but he had this gun long afore then.
Yes.
R- He might have had it before I were born for owt I know.
Did your dad go to the war?
R- No he were exempt you know ‘cause there were two tacklers called up and it only left him then.
That’s it, you said so.
R - There were only three fellas.
You said so, that's it, yes.
R - Aye.
Fried food Fred?
R- Oh we didn't do so bad, me mother used to [fry often] she were a good un at frying chops. She used to fry chops in the frying pan. Them were good and happen sometimes she’d cook ‘em in the oven, like them weren’t fried, but we used to get a bit of fried bacon and ham or fried chops occasionally.
Aye. One thing that always strikes me Fred, nowadays I mean frying pan's a dirty word nearly isn't it. Everybody’s frightened about their heart and what not.
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R- Aye they are.
And when you come to think, the number of people that lived out of the frying pan at one time.
R- They did, you could make some good do’s out of the frying pan couldn't they.
Aye. Well you think about it, they tell you that eggs are full of cholesterol and that's bad for your heart.
R- Aye.
Animal fat in the frying pan and what not. You think of the number of blokes that were reared on home fed bacon, which were nearly all fat.
R – Aye.
Eggs
R- That's it.
Chips. .
R - Aye they were the main diets weren’t they.
Aye.
R- Well, I still enjoy 'em.
Aye, so do I Fred, I don’t take any notice of what they say is bad for me.
R- No.
How about fish?
R- Oh, we used to get that, mostly cod fish and kippers at Monday occasionally or haddock, finny haddock you know.
[ ‘Finny haddock’ is the local name for Finnon Haddock, which is boned, lightly salted and smoked haddock. This was originally produced at a small village called Findon near Aberdeen in Scotland but over the years has been corrupted to ‘Finnon’]
Aye. Where did your mother get her fish from?
R- Well there’d be two fish shops In Earby then.
Which were they?
R- Well there were one on Water Street and there were the Co-op. They were in a big way were the Co-op, they had a big green grocery and fish department.
Aye. Was there anybody in Earby that came round with fish on a cart?
R- Yes. A fella called Tom Nichol [Jim Pollard mentioned the same bloke but said he was called Laurie Nichol.] but that were after the 14/18 war. He had a leg off and he had had this little shop in Water Street an all but there were plenty of that sort of thing in Earby. Especially at Monday, there were cockles and mussels and kippers, that were Monday tea for a lot of folk. I never liked cockles and I never liked mussels. But I could eat a kipper.
(5 mins)
Yes and like in them days fish would come in on the train wouldn’t it.
R- It came in on the train yes.
Aye.
R- What they called the fish train and it came from Fleetwood and it were like you know, there’d be half on it wi’ nowt only fish boxes in it. It ud be stopping at every station. Earby would be about one of the last places it stopped at.
Yes and that ud be fresh fish wouldn't it.
R - That were fresh fish, yes.
Aye.
R - You used to see these fishmongers going up to the station with their trucks and getting fish and running down with it to get it into their shops.
That’s it aye. I can remember that meself and it's always struck me, would you agree with me that that's one of the things that's suffered in the food line is fish.
R- Yes, fresh fish.
Aye, because at one time, if you think on, it would be on the train and they could have fish in Barlick. a couple of hours after it had left Fleetwood.
R- That's it. Aye it weren’t long were it and then they used to shape there selves didn't they, fishmongers, they run back with it.
Oh yes, aye. Yes, let's put it this way, it were quite possible for fish to be landed on the fish dock at Fleetwood and be on the tea table in Earby at tea time the same day.
R- Oh yes, quite, yes.
Quite easy. Cheese?
R- Aye we did very well wi’ cheese. That were nearly always on the table on Sunday.
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Mm ... What sort of cheese did you generally have Fred?
R- Well Lancashire or Wensleydale.
Aye that’s it.
R- We didn't bother wi’ owt else. There were none of that Gorgonzola...
No that's it.
R - Nobody fancied that.
It ud be local cheese like wouldn't it. It ud be, when I say local, I mean in them days it ud be cheese with mould on the crust.
R- Yes.
Aye, I got some the other day funnily enough, a bit of farm Cheddar.
R- Aye, and it were real cheese weren’t it, made in farm houses. It weren’t like it is now.
That's it. Oh nowadays if it's got mould on it you know it's bad.
R- Aye it is, aye there's no mould on now, just a bit of hard crust.
Aye, that's it aye. Cow heel?
R- Yes, we used to have cow heel occasionally and if me mother made any stew it allus had cow heel in.
Aye, steak and heel pie.
R- Aye.
I used to think there were eels in it you know, in cow heels, I used to think it were eels.
R- Eels, aye.
Tripe?
R - Yes we got tripe.
How did your mother cook it? Did you have it cold or did you have it cooked?
R- Sometimes in winter time we had tripe and onions and other times we had you know, vinegar on, pepper, salt and vinegar.
Aye, a bit of honeycomb.
R- Honeycomb and fill all the holes up wi’ vinegar. [Fred laughs]
That’s it aye! [Stanley laughs]
R- Or tried to do.
Aye that's it. Aye and your mother would tell you it were going to thin your blood down.
R- Aye, “That’s enough!”
That's it aye. That's something, I don't know if it were you I said it to but they always seemed to have this idea that vinegar and them sulphur tablets would thin your blood down.
R - That's it aye.
I don't know how much truth there is in it but they were frightened of thinning your blood weren’t they. Except when you had heat spots and then they used to give you sulphur tablets to clean your blood.
R- Oh they were, sulphur aye. Aye clean you out.
Trotters?
R- No. It were very seldom we had trotters, very seldom. No really, there were too much bone in ‘em.
Aye, well I’m not reight suited with trotters.
R- There weren’t enough meat on 'em.
Black pudding?
R- Yes, black puddings occasionally.
Aye. How did you have them, fried or boiled?
R- Boiled, boiled.
Aye. Eggs?
R- Aye. As we got a bit older we didn't do so bad for eggs but when I were reight young, me brother wouldn't eat eggs. So I used to get the top off me father’s. Eh, I’d think I'd done very well. Then like as we got a bit older and happen a bit better off we could have a whole one.
Aye. Tomatoes?
R- No we didn't have a lot of tomatoes. Me father didn't believe in 'em, he said they give you appendicitis. [Fred laughs]
Aye. I’ve heard that before.
R- Seeds.
Wi’ the seeds, aye.
R- Aye, and I can remember if we did get any, me mother allus had to dip 'em in hot water and peel them. You hadn't even to eat the skin off 'em.
(150)
(10 mins).
Aye.
R- If you just dip ‘em in boiling water it comes off easy enough.
That's what they used to tell me you know. When I eat apples I allus eat the cores and they allus used to say “You'll have appendicitis.”
R - Aye.
It were the only way I could get a bit of apple in the old days.
R - Were the core.
Were to follow somebody round eating an apple and ask 'em for their stump. Me and Ernie had a laugh about that many a time.
R- Aye.
Grapefruit?
R- No, them were unheard of.
Aye. Sheep's head?
R- No.
No. Did your mother ever buy any tinned food?
R- Very, very seldom. She’d happen have a tin of apricot's in but other than that they were all dried apricots what she used. You know, you used to soak 'em and swell 'em up, didn't they.
That's it.
R- She'd happen have a tin or two of apricot's just on spec. Chance somebody came or a special event but, oh happen a few tins of sardines, me brother liked sardines.
How about salmon Fred?
R- Salmon that were, aye. But she never really stocked 'em. If we were going to have one at Sunday she'd get it on order at Monday.
Of course, in them days a tin of salmon would be a fair item wouldn't it?
R- It were, it were a popular Sunday tea at a lot of houses.
Can you ever remember having a tin that were off?
R - No, no.
No. Did you drink tea?
R - Tea?
Tea?
R- Yes we drank tea. Me mother allus drunk coffee.
Aye. How about cocoa.
R- Yes there were allus cocoa there if you fancied cocoa instead of tea you could have cocoa.
Why did your mother have coffee?
R- I don't know.
Just ‘cause she liked it?
R- She used to have coffee reight up to the finish.
Aye.
R- Aye.
What sort were it?
R- Well that Stomike. [A very good ground coffee in airtight tins made in Burnley]
That's it.
R- Stomike or they used to grind some their self did shop-keeper, down at the provision shop.
Aye that's it.
R- They used to grind it their self and it used to smell lovely.
Aye, aye.
R- Oh aye she were a real coffee woman. In fact, as we got older like, we bought her a percolator so she could percolate it. Aye, she loved it.
Aye grand. What did you usually have for Christmas dinner Fred?
R- Pork, that were the main do. I can only once remember having a goose and I think it were a waste of time really, having it. Me brother didn't like it and I didn’t like it, so it were left like for me father and mother to eat it up. That were one time. There
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weren’t such things as turkey's in them days for ordinary working folk were there. But sometimes they might go out and he’d happen get a pheasant or sommat like that or a partridge, make a special job on it.
Aye.
R- But I should say eight times out of ten it were pork.
Aye, plenty of crackling on?
R- Aye. But you didn't get pork all year round in them days, it were like a winter’s meat weren’t it.
Aye, that's it aye, yes.
R- Ordinary butcher didn't sell pork, only at Christmas.
Aye.
R- It were left to pork butchers to sell.
Yes, because at one time there were like butchers...well there were three kinds of butchers really, weren’t there. There were the ordinary butcher, pork butcher and frozen meat shop.
R- That's it aye.
And if you were going to the frozen meat shop they reckoned you were hard up didn't they.
R- Aye and they all get it now don't they.
Aye. Were there a frozen meat shop in Barlick ... in Earby?
R- Before my time. I've heard ‘em talk about it.
Aye.
R- Where the Central Club is now.
Oh yes.
R- There were a frozen meat shop there. But that were before my time, I’m going off hearsay.
What would you say were your favourite food when you were a child Fred?
R- Favourite food?
Aye.
R- Roast beef at week-end or a little bit of steak at Thursday's.
Aye.
R- Aye. I allus looked forward to me Thursday dinner and me Sunday dinner.
Aye.
R- Cause it were nearly allus crop or sirloin. You know, I like a good cut of meat wi’ plenty of fat on.
Well you've said sommat there haven't you. Nowadays if a piece of meat has plenty of fat on they can’t sell it.
R- No they can’t, they cut it off don't they.
(15 mins)
But I mean, meat's nothing without fat
R- No.
Well, I don't think so. I don't actually like fat but I think a piece of meat that has a bit of fat wi’ it, that's been roasted wi’ a lump of fat, taste's a lot better.
R- A lot better, that’s why, you know, you can get a big lump of beef. And when you go into these restaurants, a proper restaurant, they cook a big lump don't they, wi’ all the fat on and it's good is that lean isn't it.
Good stuff aye. And what would you have to eat when the family were a bit hard up. You know, if it were a bad week or somebody were poorly.
R- Well me mother allus saved the dripping off meat. We used to get dripping cakes, especially in winter, good for you, keep you warm they used to say.
Salt and pepper on aye.
R- Aye. Salt and pepper on.
Aye. I still like bread and dripping meself.
(250)
R It were all home made bread. I don't think me mother ever bought a loaf until she got very old.
When you come to think about it though, a good big doorstep of home made bread covered wi’ dripping wi’ some salt and pepper on, you could do a lot worse couldn't you.
R- Oh you could, aye.
Aye.
R- Cause it were better bread in them days than what you get today. Definitely.
Yes.
R- And if you happen went to somebody's house and they made you what we call a jam butty with their bread. You used to enjoy it.
Aye.
R- You know. There were allus just a little bit of difference in everybody’s baking.
That's it, aye. And a bit of crust on.
R- Aye, and you used to get your own like regular and when you got somebody else’s, eh how good this bread is. And if somebody come to your house it were the same.
Yes.
R - By gum it's good is this bread...
Yes, aye a change.
R - A change isn't it.
Yes. Did your father come home for all his meals?
R- Bar breakfast time when I used to take it.
What did you generally take him Fred?
R - Well many a time it were bacon and egg between two plates and I used to have to run down with it as fast as I could.
Aye and when you took his food in, where were he generally. Your dad, what was your dad doing?
R- A tackler.
Tackler. So where would he have it? In the store room?
R- No. They had a bit of a form in the warehouse. They used to sit there and have it.
Did your dad always have same food as the rest of you, or did he sometimes have something different? You know, something special.
R- No. We were all treated alike.
Aye. Can you ever remember your mother going short to make sure you had enough?
R- Not to me knowing Stanley. She might have done unknown to us but..
Yes.
R- Not to us knowing. Like we were never well off and never really poor, it were just in between.
Yes.
R- ‘Cause he were a very careful sort were me father. He didn't throw owt away.
Yes, and who usually did the shopping Fred?
R- Me mother, bit what they used to do. ‘Cause they used to get the main order from the grocers. There weren't a lot of owt else to get.
And how often would you say she went shopping. I mean obviously she'd get the big order once a week wouldn't she.
R- That’s it, aye.
Yes.
R- Well if she run short of a bit of owt she’d go for meat at Friday. That were ... happen go down at Thursday for a little bit of steak and then meat at Friday for weekend.
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(20 mins.)
When you think about it, in those days Fred, there were no fridges. Did you, you know, can you remember food ever going off?
R- I can only remember a bit of meat going off once and it were a very warm summer and a lot of bluebottle's about. Although we had one of them covers like perforated metal. But it went off did the meat. A bluebottle must have got to it.
Aye.
R- It were only a bit, it were sommat and nowt but it were there.
Yes, aye.
R- That like were the only time I can remember.
And where did your mother get her meat?
R- At her brothers. They'd been in the butcher’s business, me mother were £etched up in the butchering business. Then her brother took it over when the father died.
Aye. Oh aye, I remember you telling me. I’ve heard you say about 'em taking beasts in and slaughtering 'em at the shop.
R- Aye.
Aye, that's it. Aye.
R- Well she allus shopped there.
I were talking to a fella the other night and his dad used to slaughter goats in the bath. [Stanley and Fred laugh]
R- Aye, oh aye!
A man of quality, he used to rear goats and he used to take 'em upstairs and slaughter 'em in the bath, he said it were the best place to do it.
R- Aye, get shut of the blood wouldn't it.
Aye, his wife must have been a long suffering woman. He had a gas engine in the front room an all! Eh. Times were hard. Anyway that's nothing to do with this. Was there a market in Earby?
R- They've kept having bits and bats but never one regular.
Yes. When there’s been one, where has it been Fred?
R- Where the bus station is now.
Aye, next to the fire station, well next to what's the fire station now.
R- What they call, well, they called it the fair ground.
Aye. Where were the fire station in those days?
R- Aside of Vokes, at the back of the butcher’s shop in Water street.
And how did you get to it, from the front or down…
R- On end of ... Vokes Mill where Vokes is now. [Vokes was in Victoria Mill]
Yes.
R- You went on to the end of there, and there were a big building and it were attached to the mill and attached to these shops on Water Street. A little bit of a scratty do.
(350)
Like it ud be down the side of where young Tooley's barber's shop used to be, at that end, aye.
R- That's it aye, it were at the back of there.
That's it aye. Young Tooley, I've just mentioned his name, you'd know young Tooley well wouldn't you?
[‘Young Tooley’ was the barber at the end of Water Street in the small shops directly opposite the Conservative Club. He was noted as being the biggest liar in Earby.]
R- Aye he were a real character.
Aye, I mean, I remember when I lived in Earby they always used to say if you went into Earby and asked for biggest liar in Earby they'd either send you to Jacky Waterworth or young Tooley.
R- Aye well. I will say this about young Tooley, and he had another brother, they tell lies but they were interesting lies.
Aye.
R- Aye, they weren’t all silly there were sommat about 'em. You could sit and listen to ‘em, although you knew they were telling 'em all time.
I can remember him once, somebody took a mushroom in. It were a big un. It were like a dinner plate and he showed it to him. “There you are Tooley! I bet tha’s never seen one like that before.” Oh he says, “I had one bigger than that t’other week. I was walking down Thornton Bottoms and I found it. My biggest job were getting the sheep from underneath it before I picked it!” [Both laugh.]
R- Aye, typical, aye.
And what were another one. Oh, he were wi’ the Gurkhas during the war and he says they had these knives, these Kukris and he says they throw ‘em you know and he says they can hit anything. And he says I were going through the jungle one day with a Gurkha and he says there were this here Japanese bloke and the Gurkha pulls this Kukri back, he fetches it back to throw it. Tooley says, No, let me throw it, so he did. And this Japanese bloke never moved and the Gurkha turned round, he says you've missed him. Tooley said, I nodded to him and his head dropped off.
[Fred and Stanley burst out laughing.]
R- Aye, he were good weren’t he! Can you see Stanley? I’ll put the light on and pull the curtains.
Did your mother ever shop at the Co-op?
R- Well we were members at the Co-op and she went occasionally.
Aye.
R- She didn't shop there for all her stuff, little bits and bats. Pair of shoes, you know shoes and get your clogs ironed there and new clogs sometimes.
Whereabouts were the Co-op then, where it is now?
R- Where it is now.
At top of Victoria Road?
R- Yes.
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(25 mins)
Aye. Why did she shop at the Co-op?
R- Well I don't know like. Nearly everybody were a member of the Co-op in them days. We got what you could say a lot of groceries there, it were nearly all other things. As I say, clogs, shoes mending, clogs mending. I don't know whether you could get shirts there or not.
Yes.
R- Sommat like that, we never had a lot of divi.
What were the divi then, any idea?
R- Oh about three pence were…
About three pence in the pound?
R- And then it went up, kept going up and up and up and up and it ud be about 2/6d. at one time. 2/6d in the pound.
That were a good do weren’t it when you come to think.
R- Aye it were. Aye and I can allus remember the number; 752.
Aye. Can you remember any local shops giving credit?
R- No I wouldn’t like to say on that no. Oh, happen Isaac Levi, he probably would, he had a furniture shop.
Aye. That were like where Banham’s cycle shop used to be weren’t it.
R- That's it, a side of there.
Aye. Eh ... that's something that's just come into me mind an all. Just while I think, Newton Pickles has a very good pocket watch, a really good one, a chronometer and it has, now what were t’name of that watch maker across the road from Banham’s.
R- Emmott’s.
Emmott, that's it, he’d be going then wouldn't he.
R- There were Nelson Emmott and then it changed over to Jack Emmott his brother.
Yes. but like that Emmott were there. It was Emmott’s in them days wasn't it.
R- Yes.
That shop, yes. 'Cause it has his name on it you know, it has the name on the watch. [I think the watches were actually made by Fattorini’s at Bradford. They were big silver pocket watches and much favoured by local engine tenters.] It is a good watch an all, and there’s more than one about. In fact Newton has two. He has two of them watches, I keep trying to get him to give me one, not sell me, give me one but he won't do it yet. Was there a pawn shop in Earby?
(450)
R- No not to me knowing, unless Isaac ud pawn you a bit of sommat on the quiet.
Aye.
R- There was no legitimate pawn shop.
Yes, course Isaac ud be brother to .....
R- Same as him that were up at Barlick.
Up Barlick.
R- It were the same firm.
Yes. Aye, well there were two brothers weren’t there aye. Was there anything you ate then, you know, any food you had then that you can’t get now?
R- I don't think so Stanley, no.
Any idea how much house-keeping money your mother ud have then?
R- I haven't the foggiest idea on that.
It's reight. It doesn’t matter if you don't know.
R- Well she wouldn't have so much, I mean they didn't earn much did they.
No, no, what would a tacklers wage be then?
R- Oh it would only be £2.10s. or sommat like that at one time.
Aye.
R - And then gradually it got up a bit.
Yes. Course that wouldn't be a bad wage then would it though.
R- It were a good wage, because weavers were making about £1.10s. weren't they.
Aye, and I should of course point out that we mean one pound ten shillings and not one pound and ten pence, this silly bloody money they have now. Can you remember anything about the first world war? About people queuing for food or whether food was short or anything like that?
R- Oh yes. I can remember queuing, and we used to go to Barlick to the Maypole, queuing for margarine, we used to walk it from Earby.
Aye, aye that were on Frank Street weren’t it?
R- No, I think it were opposite the Majestic.
Opposite the Majestic.
R- Yes.
There’s a funny thing, that's funny ‘cause Vera said she could remember it there but Arthur Entwistle said it were at the bottom of Frank Street. Arthur might be wrong. There you are. And Maypole then, that were just margarine, weren’t it?
[The first margarine in Britain was made in a hat factory at Godley, near Hyde in what is now Tameside. This was taken over in the 1870s by Otto Monsted, a Danish margarine producer. He created Britain's first margarine factory on the site and, in fact, the first churning of Monsted's margarine was recorded as taking place at Godley on April 15, 1889. In 1914 Monsted's margarine business was taken over by the Maypole Dairy Company which was then, in turn, purchased by the William Lever Company. They named the product Planters Margarine. With the opening of the new Planters Margarine factory in Bromborough, margarine production at Godley gradually stopped. The shops they opened all over Britain were general grocers and sold their margarine. When WW1 brought shortages they had a virtual monopoly of margarine sales ]
R- Well, I don’t think they’d have any butter in them days. It ud be just margarine.
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Yes aye. Would you say food were fairly short during the first world war?
R- Aye. I mean sugar were the worst job I think, that were scarce and there weren’t this saccharin like there is to-day.
Aye.
R- But I don’t think there were as many ration cards as what they used to have in the last war.
(30 mins)
Aye.
R- No.
Can you remember. Let's see, 1908 you were born, no perhaps, anyway I’ll ask you anyway. Can you remember anything about the beginning of the war, have you any memories about it?
R- Oh I can remember 'em saying like war were declared and…
Yes.
R- And then you’d to rely on the papers coming like, night or morning to get news out of the papers. There were no wireless or telly in them days.
Yes.
R- Things had been, could be two or three days old you know, big battles were over before you got to know about 'em in England.
As far as you were concerned and your understanding of the job, why did the Great War start, have you any idea?
R- No, no idea about that.
No, well that's fair enough Fred, because when all's said and done you were only six years old. Clothes, did your mother make any of family’s clothes?
R- Aye, she used to make ours as lads and she used to make part of her own.
Did she have a sewing machine?
R - Yes oh aye.
What sort?
R - It were a German one. It were one what her brother bought her for a wedding present.
Aye.
R- Like that were a good wedding present in them days, to get a sewing machine like, so good as what she had.
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Yes. Table or cabinet?
R- Table machine. Oh it were treasured were that. you hadn't to touch it.
Aye they were weren’t they, and good machines an all.
R- Yes. Oh it were marvellous what they could do. Put a shirt on to some paper and draw a pattern and cut ‘em out about half or an inch bigger and make a shirt for you. Then I mean, what there isn't to today, but you had a night shirt when you went to bed. It were a long shirt what come nearly down to your ankles.
Aye.
R- When we were little kids. As we grow older like you didn't bother.
Aye. You say you didn't bother. You didn't bother about a night shirt, or you didn't bother about anything?
R- No, in summer time you got in bed ‘bout owt. In winter you used to get in wi’ your shirt on, there were no pyjamas.
Aye. That’s it, aye. No I never wear owt in bed, I can understand it. Did you have sheets in them days?
R- Yes.
Aye. A lot of people didn’t you know. I’ll tell you sommat interesting, did you have underpants?
R- Aye, they were loose. Loose underpants.
Aye.
R- But they were like a lining, a trouser lining and then they buttoned on the inside.
Inside the trousers.
R- Inside.
Themselves.
R- And then when they got dirty you could take 'em out and wash 'em like.
That's it. Like a loose lining in trousers more than a separate pair. Different than a pair of under pants nowadays.
R- Loose lining. Oh aye. They were more like a loose lining.
More like a washable lining in the trousers.
R- But you got the old fustian pants, them linings were all fast in.
Aye.
R- The whole lot had to be washed to wash the inside.
Aye. And when you say fustian, of course I know you mean what they call corduroy now.
R - Corduroy.
Would them be old fashioned corduroy that used to be a linen warp and a cotton thread? You know? Or would they be cotton corduroy?
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R- They were cotton. They used to stink. Can you remember 'em smelling?
Aye.
R- Aye.
Oh I don't think they make corduroy like they used to. There's sommat about corduroy nowadays, all the nap comes off it.
R- It does.
It didn't used to in old days.
R- No it soon wears off now doesn’t it.
And I’ll tell you sommat about corduroy trousers in the old days that I used to remember and them Bedford cords and all were the same. If you didn't wash 'em and they got reight mucky they used to crack.
(35 mins)
R- Crack, aye, when you were walking.
Yes.
R- Aye they did.
Did you have any passed on clothes Fred?
R - Me brother's, that's about all. He were bigger than me.
Aye. If your mother bought any clothes where would she buy 'em from?
R- Well, as soon as me brother wanted a new suit and she never saw any prospects of making it herself she used to go to Colne or Nelson.
How about Scotchmen. Can you remember them coming?
R – What, coming round?
Yes.
R- No.
No. I say Scotchmen, they used to call ‘em Scotchmen and I don't know why. But what they were, it were Provident men for Provident cheques. It were, there was a firm of tailors somewhere and they used to send people round once a week and they'd call round at the house, measure you up for a suit and fetch it for you next week and they always called 'em Scotchmen. Can you over remember hearing about them in Earby?
R- No. I can remember people coming round but it were later on you know, when I were about seventeen or eighteen.
Aye.
R- They used to come round and there were one fella come from Crosshills. He came for years and years. Just occasionally we got a new suit off him and it was as you say, measured you that Friday and fetched it the following Friday.
Aye.
R- And then we never owed anything, never had any debt. Me father wouldn't buy us anything unless he could pay for it.
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R- But the same fella used to come round every Friday to collect at some of the houses. I will say that about me parents, they were never in debt.
In them days it were a terrible bloody thing to be in debt sometimes, weren’t it. Especially if somebody were sick. What happened to your old clothes Fred?
R- Well if they got too little for me she used to pass 'em on did me mother. Pass ‘em on to somebody else.
Yes.
R- She used to wash ‘em and pass ‘em on.
And if they were absolutely worn out?
R- Aye well they went into a bag. You had a bag, a rag bag. Cut all the buttons off, there must have been thousands of buttons in the house. And then they were put in this rag bag and then when the rag chap come round you'd happen get a penny or twopence for ‘em, a bag full of rags.
Aye. He’d pay for 'em then?
R - Oh he used to.
Aye. Did you ever see a rag chap do anything else but pay you? You know, give people sommat for their rags?
R- Well if there were only a few they might give ‘em a scouring stone.
Aye, donkey stone aye.
R- Aye, but if they were reasonable, penny or twopence, may be up to fourpence if there were a good do.
Some reight good wool or sommat like that.
R- Old Paul Brydon from Barlick used to come round.
Who?
R- They called him Paul Brydon, old Paul.
How did they spell that? Brydon?
R- Brydon I think....
Unusual. Brydon, an unusual name isn't it.
R- But if you talk to some of 'em in Barlick they'll remember him. I think he had a peg leg, you know a wooden leg.
Yes, a stump, aye.
R- Aye a stump aye.
Yes, that nearly sounds like a war wound doesn’t it.
R- Unless he’d been in the shafting at the mill or sommat.
What did you wear for school Fred?
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R- Well it were generally short pants in them days when you were young. A waistcoat and a jacket and some on ‘em had jersey's on and they called ‘em ganzies.
That’s it, ganzy, oh aye. Tell me sommat Fred, what age, when did they usually breech lads? I mean up to, lads used to be in petticoats the same as lasses didn't they.
R- Oh aye, they'd be three.
Yes.
R- Aye
They'd be about three year old when they were breeched?
R- Aye. I have a 'photo of me and me brother and I have petticoats on.
I shall want to see them old Photos. I want copies of one or two of them. Aye well, a lot of people find that hard to understand nowadays. When did you get your first pair of long trousers?
R- When I were sixteen.
Aye. So you'd be going to work in short trousers?
R- Short trousers or them knickerbockers. They buttoned at knee did some on ‘em.
That's it, yes.
R In summer time short uns and occasionally, you know, if you wanted a new pair and it were coming winter you might get some knickerbockers.
(40 mins)
Aye.
R- And I were sixteen, me brother he got his when he were sixteen and I got mine when I were sixteen.
Aye I think I got mine when I were fifteen, I call tell you the first place I wore 'em. It were a dance at the Co-op Hall at Audenshaw, Manchester and they were a pair of grey flannels and I thought I were king of the bloody May that day, I’ll tell you.
R- Aye, mine were a pair of fustian pants to go to work in.
Aye. I can remember that. I only got my grey flannels because I needed ‘em for school. I were still at school like, you see, and they were school uniform. I thought
I were a bloody king. Long trousers what!
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R- You had pockets down here and it were “Get your hands out of them pockets” You hadn't to put your hands in the pockets. “It’ll make you round shouldered!”
What kind of hat did you wear?
R- Oh just a cap.
Aye.
R- A little cap.
Aye, like a school cap.
R- School cap aye.
That’s it, aye. Button in the middle. Badge on?
R- No.
How about footwear?
R- Clogs.
Clogs.
R- And a pair of shoes for Sunday.
Aye.
R- Saturday and Sunday, for when you were dressed up.
Irons on?
R- Yes. But to me, I think it were a foolish do really were that Sunday shoe job. You only wore 'em at Saturday and Sunday. Saturday if you were setting off with your father and mother. Well I mean, you grew out of 'em. Naturally when your feet were growing you didn't know. I think that's why a lot of folk had bad feet.
Aye. Sunday shoe job.
R- You only wore 'em once a week, twice at most.
Aye, well it's a point of view. Can you ever remember ever having Colne irons on your clogs.
R- Yes, thick irons.
Aye
R- Aye we allus had to have Colne irons on, thick irons, they used to be thick uns.
Aye, they last longer don’t they. I still have some at home. What did your father wear for work?
R- Clogs. He had a pair of heavy boots and he used to go to the mill in these boots then change into his clogs when he got there. Working clogs.
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Aye. What kind of hat did he wear?
R- Just an ordinary cap.
Aye, flat cap. A ratting hat. What did your mother wear? For house work you know.
R- House work.
Yes.
R- Oh she used to have a fairly long apron on.
Aye, did she wear long skirts?
R- Yes, aye.
Aye.
R- Early on.
Aye. When you say early on, she'd get away from long skirts wouldn't she like, she'd go...
R - Oh yes, aye.
Aye.
R- But when we were kids like, they very nearly trailed on the floor.
Yes, that's it.
R- When they were walking they'd to hold 'em up to keep ‘em out of the slutch.
That's it. Can you ever remember 'em using hat protectors for that?
R - Yes.
Hat guards for it, yes aye. And when you come to think like, somebody like your mother, she'd have never have seen anybody in a skirt shorter than down to the floor.
R- No.
And when they started to, I’ve often thought it must have been a big thing for women you know, when they started to shorten. Because they'd never showed their ankles, had they.
R- No they hadn't, no. And then I mean they made there selves old didn't they then, a lot of women?
I think they did. I think you're right.
R- You know, with lace bonnets on and all in black.
Yes.
R- Dark coloured stuff.
That's right. We’re going ahead a bit now but you've mentioned sommat there. I'm going to just push that a little bit because it's something that interests me. You've said something there about women, they made themselves old like. When you come to think about it, what sort of a life do you think women had then?
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R- Oh they had a bad life hadn't they.
Well I mean, I'm asking you ‘cause you were alive then.
R- Oh they had a lot harder life than what they have today. I mean they used to have these youngsters and the father never used to take 'em out for a walk, mother had ‘em all to fetch up. I don't think a lot them, they wouldn't know how to bath a youngster wouldn’t a lot of fathers. In fact they'd no interest at all in 'em I don’t think, only getting ‘em.
And would you say that in general, the way women were regarded then and treated then was any different than the way they’re treated nowadays?
R- Oh I think they were treated as though they were a real mug in them days.
Aye.
R- Aye they were mugs, when you look back.
(45 mins)
Like a second class citizen like. Aye, yes.
R- I know, I wouldn't think like that me father ill treated her or owt like that but it were, she allus had to clean his shoes, clean his clogs. Get his shirt out, get everything ready when he were going to change. When the meal were finished, shift all the stuff. There were no such thing as me father helping to clear the table or wash up or owt of that.
Aye.
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R- No.
And would you say, I get the impression many a time that, this is what started me off when you said that you thought that women perhaps made themselves look old. Would you say that there was no encouragement at all, well let's put it this way, would you think it would be true to say that they were encouraged to make themselves look unattractive in a way?
R- Aye.
They weren’t encouraged to try and show themselves off were they?
R- No, they hadn't to be smart had they.
Aye.
R- But I can remember a lot of women you know, when they got about, well sixty, turned sixty, they had these black bonnets on, all beads and ribbons under here.
Old Mother Riley hats.
R- That’s it aye.
Aye.
R- Aye, when they got older like they all had to have one of them on.
Aye.
R - Allus dark never any light coloured clothes or owt of that.
Aye, and like the shawl were allus dark weren’t it.
R- That's it.
Aye.
R- Aye things has changed a lot since them days.
Yes. Would you say that it was a good thing? You know that things have changed?
R- Oh I think a lot on it's for the better. Biggest part on it’s for the better.
I'm thinking about you know, women's position.
R- Women, yes aye.
Yes.
R- But I think women looked after their children better in them days than what they do to-day. There were no letting 'em run about and clart on like they do. More mannerly. I can remember, we daren't get up from the table without we says Thank you. Please may I leave the table. Oh no, nowt of that. Sit there until..
No bad thing Fred. No bad thing.
R- There were manners. I should be eleven before I got to sit at the table.
Now that’s an interesting thing. Now then, that is an interesting thing Fred. That's something that I wanted to come on to. We’ll just stop this tape and we'll start on the next tape with that.
(977)
SCG/10 April 2003
7,700 words.