THIS TAPE HAS BEEN RECORDED ON THE 28TH OF SEPTEMBER 1978 AT 14 STONEYBANK ROAD, EARBY. THE INFORMANT IS FRED INMAN, TACKLER AND THE INTERVIEWER IS STANLEY GRAHAM.
Now then when we finished that last tape you were just on about sommat very interesting to me. You were saying about standing at the table,
R- Well when we were little I can remember. there were a little high chair and me mother used to lift me into that and sit up to table in that and me brother used to be stood at side of me because he were a bit bigger. But he were stood on a little buffet and as I got older I can remember me brother, he could just make a do without. I'd to stand on the buffet then, they did away wi’ the high chair.
Yes.
R - But we were stood there and as I say you daren’t move. You hadn't to go away and I think it teach you a lot of manners did that. Table manners.
Yes. But the thing is that you were stood at the table instead of sitting at the table.
R- That's it aye.
Now when did you first sit at table?
R - Oh I'd be ... I should think I’d be ten or eleven.
And when did you first start work Fred?
R - Well, like I went half time at twelve.
Yes. Because I know with a lot of people, 'cause obviously I’ve come across this before and with some people they didn’t used to let them sit at the table until they started work.
R – Aye. That’s right.
Aye, and I was wondering whether it was the same with you.
R – No. Well, I’d nearly getten to working.
Yes that's it, and would you say it were fairly common?
R - Oh yes. I know me mates, they were the same, they’d to stand at table.
Aye. Very interesting.
R - And I used to go to one of me father’s cousins, and he had six youngsters and there wouldn't be ten years in all the lot. And they had a table on their own. Father and mother sat at one table and all these, they were round this table and the mother served ‘em all and then she came and served father and her and they dare not say anything or they daren’t move. And when the father and mother had finished, she sided their plates and then went and give youngsters their second round of pudding or sommat like that. And then when the father and mother had had their pudding they'd say right and the kids would say thank you very much, please may we leave the table. And that were it then.
Yes.
R - I've seen ‘em sit there ten minutes after father and mother had finished, but they were all grand children, they were.
Have you ever been to a farm house where they've had farm men and seen a similar thing?
R - No.
No. No well I didn't think you would have done. I have, I’ll
(50)
tell you and funnily enough it was only, now just let me think, about fifteen years ago. It was at Calton, you know, up behind Eshton. And I went to a farm one day and delivered a load of straw and went in the kitchen. They had four farm men at that farm, either three or else four I can’t just remember now, and the family’s sat at one table and four men at another. And the farm men's table were scrubbed and the family’s table had a cloth on.
R – Aye.
And I said when I come back, I said that that were a bit of old England that you know....
R- Aye.
A bit of old England. I've heard people talk about that and they used to have two sorts of pies you know, and they used to have 'em marked with a cross on the pastry. There were one lot for farm men and one lot for the family and the difference were that the family’s had sugar in.
R- Aye.
Ted Waite used to work at Friars Head and he said that during the war, he said it were a funny do, one day, now what was his name at Friars Head at Winterburn, Taylor.
R - Taylor aye.
Old Taylor.
R – That’s it aye, at Friars Head.
(5 mins)
That’s it. He said it were a funny do, it were a Tuesday and they had meat for dinner. He couldn't reckon it up, middle of winter an all you know, he said I thought this is a real do and then Ted thought no, he didn't have any of this meat you know. And he said, after dinner instead of sitting there for ten minutes like they used to do he went out and he said it had snowed very heavy. And nobody had been away from the farm during the morning, they'd been busy round the buildings you know. And he said there were one set of foot marks going off through snow and he followed 'em through the snow and found this dead ewe with a leg missing.
R – Aye. [Fred laughs]
Aye, that were why they had mutton on Tuesday. Old Taylor knew this ewe weren’t right good so he’d popped out…
R- I know that name.
Aye, Taylor.
R- Taylor at Friars Head.
Oh Taylor at Friars Head, he were famous were that fella.
R - There were another fella. Seat House....
Clark..
R- Clark.
Clark’s at Seat House...
R- He wore a bugger were that.
Oh aye. I used to go there an all. They had all the milk rounds in Skipton.
R – Aye.
And they had all the hospital milk in Skipton up to not so long since. And old Clark, he were an old fella then like. I used to pick the milk up and he always used to be sat in the yard. It had been, it was a peculiar place that farm because…
R- It were a peculiar house weren’t it?
Yes.
R- To go in.
That's it and it were wood upstairs....
R- That’s it aye.
It were stone at bottom and wood at top and it were reight on the yard. It were like an old fashioned manor house style of thing with a yard and everything went on in the cobbled yard in front of house. And they had a boiler there for sterilising the milk tins and old Clark allus used to be sat there. I’ve never seen him but what he was splitting kindling. Now whether that was with me allus going at the same time I don't know, but I allus used to think they must use a hell of a lot of kindling at that place. Either that or he were running a firewood business on t’side.
R - Aye, aye.
But he were a grand fella were old Clark actually.
R- Aye.
And there were two brothers I think, but it were a funny set up were that.
R- Aye. Well, the old woman who lived next door here,
(100)
she came from up in the Dales where they keep race horses and that.
Thirsk?
R- No. It were one of the other places.
Leyburn.
R - Leyburn.
Aye.
R - Her husband got chucked off a horse and he were killed and she came back then to live here and her husband and Clark were brothers. This Mrs Clark, she says to me mother we'll take you to Seat House and they could go on the bus then to Gargrave and then they walked on to..
Yes, down to Eshton and up to the top there, Flasby road end.
R – Aye. She said what a cob shop it were. [‘cob’ is a local word for curious] Did you know Eric, Eric Clark, the lad?
Aye.
R- There were him and a farmer’s man, similar to Eric, two big young fellas. Well they'd no bath then at Seat House and every Friday they used to come to Earby, they had a motor-bike, and Eric went next door for a bath and the farmer’s man came here for a bath. ‘Cause it were one of them do's, they were going dancing, and if same as Eric had his bath and he’d to have is bath an all, well there were a lot of time wasted. So me mother says “Oh you mun come and have one at our house.” And so Eric says “You're interested in rabbiting aren't you Mr Inman?” He says “Yes” He says “Come over to our place. We’ve got plenty. But if I aren’t about, get me dad to write you a paper out, you know, that you've got permission.”
Aye.
R- “Aye, alright.” So we went, it were one September me father and me went, I think we got thirty and we weren’t a reight long while of getting these thirty. So when we were coming away me dad says “We'll have ten a piece and leave them ten.” So he says to Eric, “We’ve getten thirty Eric. We'll leave you ten and take ten apiece.” Eric thought that were a good do because I think they got a shilling apiece for ‘em. Somebody picked them up. Eric says “It's a good do is that Mr, Inman. So next time he came for a bath he says, “Well, I don't like telling you but me father says “Is that all they've left, ten. They’re not coming no more. They should have taken ten and left twenty.” So Eric says “I'm sorry about it.”
(10 mins)
O1d school.
R- So me father says “Look, don’t stop coming here for that.”
No.
R- He came for a long, long while, aye.
Aye. But thing about that you see Fred, it's the old school.
R - Oh yes.
If they'd left twenty he'd have wanted twenty five.
(150)
R- Aye, that’s it. Aye.
I mean it's something you've got to allow. That’s something that people don't realise you know. What I call the old school, you know what I mean don’t you. Yes, it were a different do altogether.
R- Aye.
I always say that people don’t realise how hard they had it in them days. I'll just tell you sommat about that. Charlie Sutton on at Brierfield, fluer. Weldone fluers, always flued boilers, he's somebody I want to tape an all. Grand fella Charlie. His father Jim, talk about a hard man, oh Jesus he's as hard as flint and they call him Louis, they all call him Louis, they don’t call him Jim you know, it's the family name for him. And he's a grand fella is Jim like but God, he’d skin a louse for it's hide.
R - Aye.
And it doesn’t matter how much he gets, he’s allus trying for that bit more. Charlie used to get on about it you know, and he used to say me dad this that and the other, he used to play hell about his dad. Well I mean, there’s times when you do fall out with your dad, you'll fall out with your dad before you'll fall out with one of your mates like, won't you. But 1 used to say to him “Charlie, you’ve got to just remember he's getting old and he’s had it bloody hard.” I were talking to old Jim one day, and he says “You know, they talk about having it hard, I’ve seen slavery and people starving to death on the streets of Nelson!” And it's sommat you've got to remember. When he said slavery he didn't mean slavery like they think with black slaves. But the same thing you know, you know what he meant, you know people that were just absolutely tied to a job and they weren’t making enough. You know, I mean it wasn't possible to make enough money to live on.
R - No.
But it were all they could do and you know, when a bloke's seen that and seen what can happen they get into the habit of trying for as much as they can get all the time. And once you've been like that for seventy five years Fred, you can’t stop.
R – Aye, you can’t alter, no.
You can’t expect a leopard to change it's spots.
R- No.
And you've got to bear it in mind when you're on with fellas like old Clark. There used to be a fella, it wouldn’t surprise me if he were still alive, a bloke called George Staveley up at Settle. George Staveley is a legend up there. Mind you there's just a possibility he may be dead now but I don't know. I don't know, they might have him hung up somewhere drying but by God. He was eighty odd and if you go out of Settle up what they call If Hill, at back, there's a big steep hill goes up at back and comes down into Kirby Malham. You can either go down to, what's the name of that place between Gargrave and Long Preston? [Bell Busk] Anyway you can either drop down on to Gargrave or the Long Preston road or you can turn up left and come down through Kirby Malham, you know. And George had some land reight up on top there as you're going up out of Settle. There's a big hill goes up at the back, a big limestone hill and he had a lot of black cattle up there. Years after he were supposed to have retired, and one day he went missing in middle of winter. There was a lot of snow on ground and he went missing and they got the bloody mountain rescue out 'cause they knew he’d gone to look
(210)
these beasts you know and it's blowing a blizzard and he used to walk. He didn't used to ride up you know, he used to walk up this hill every day, eighty odd years old. And all he ever wore were them terrible, do you remember them things, they were like short Wellingtons that laced up.
R- Aye.
I should think they were about the worst thing that were ever made for your feet. That's all he ever used to wear. And they found him, he was sat behind three bales of straw watching his beasts and reight enjoying himself and he couldn't understand why they'd come searching for him.
(15 mins)
R- No.
And one day I were down at Cyril Richardson's at Little Stainton and a van pulls up, a little van, and this fella gets out of the passenger seat and it were George Staveley. And 1 said “Eh, by God, look who’s here, it’s George! What are you after?” He said, “Young man, do you know of a fella called Metcalfe round here?” I said “Aye, just up the road there.” He said, “I understand he has a Standard Ford tractor for sale, a paraffin tractor.” Which he had, Wallace had two and he were right attached to them. He didn’t like new-fangled tractors he used to like one that you could stand on when you were driving it, like the old Standard Ford. And he said “Wait a minute, would it be Wallace Metcalfe?” I said “Aye.” He turned round to this fella who was driving, and he said “Hungriest bugger in Craven, we’re wasting us time!” And this voice come down from the house. It were Cyril, he must have come out of door you see and realized who it were. He says “Well, that'll be a bloody laugh. It’ll be the two hungriest buggers in Craven together when you get up there!!” And I don't know whether he ever got this tractor bought but he were reight you know.
R- Aye,
I'd have given a pound, I said to Cyril, we ought to have walked up there just to eavesdrop on the conversation because I’ll bet it were worth listening to. Aye, because they were both same you see, they were both hungry.
R- Aye. [Fred laughs]
I’ve come down to interview you and we've started a conversation, anyway, its not a bad thing. That's something that they had then that they've not got now. Can you ever think on, you've heard people talk about why blacks make good boxers and this that and the other.
(250)
they say it’s because they are hungry.
R- Yes.
And you know that were why they were good men.
R- Mm..
When I say good men, able men.
R- Yes.
Because they'd bloody well had to be...
R - had to be, aye.
Fred, or they didn't survive.
R – No they didn't did they.
And I’ll tell you where else it applies, weavers. That were the way to make weavers and I'm convinced that’s why they can’t make weavers nowadays.
R – That’s it. Aye.
They’re not hungry enough.
R- No. And I allus found this out and me father allus said same. There were very few women went in pubs going back, you know, fifty year. But if you'd a weaver went into a pub or a club and liked a gill or two and smoked, there weren’t a lot smoked then, they were allus the best weavers.
That's it.
R- 'Cause they went to work to make their ale money.
That's it. Yes.
R- And you know, they'd look after home an all but they wanted five or six bob extra to spend.
Do you know I’m convinced that biggest part of the weavers at Bancroft are running cars!
R – That’s it. Pin money isn’t it.
They’re keeping the car.
R- Oh that's all it is isn't it. It's came as these evening shifts. You get these evening shifts, six till ten, it's nearly all to run motor cars. We used to laugh about 'em. There’d be six motor cars waiting outside at New Road waiting of their wives coming out at ten o'clock, fellas sat in. They were working to run the car and the fella were coming to take ‘em home, they wore buggered at night.
Aye.
R - All to run a car.
Aye.
R- It is so. And that's what's ruining the cotton trade isn’t it. How many reight workers were there up there Stanley, not a reight lot.
Oh I should think, well you could certainly number 'em on one hand.
R- Aye you could aye. That came to earn good wages.
Aye that came to work. That came to weave, and I don't know but you know I think one of silliest things that they ever did was, can you remember when they put that £8.50 on. They had nowt for years and then all of a sudden they give 'em that £8.50 and they put it on the time rate.
R – That’s it. Aye, well the union went in for all that, didn't they.
Well what it amounted to was, I once got on to Jim one day, and I say's tell me sommat, no names, no pack drill, but I picked a lousy weaver in the shed. I said what's the difference between her wage and Mary Wilkins? He said You've just hit the nail on the head. A Fiver.
(300)
R – Aye, a pound a day difference eh.
Aye. and he says that’s before tax.
R – Aye.
He said a fiver. That’s just what difference it makes.
R- Oh what they earned were nowt, it were what they were getting for the time, this flat rate.
Aye, but isn’t it a terrible thing though when you think that things that have been done to improve peoples conditions, in the long run actually worsen the condition because it means that there’s no hungry weavers. They’re not sharp workers, the industry doesn’t do as well so in the finish I mean it's their own throat.
(20 mins)
R - Aye they've killed their own pig haven't they.
And really it's all been done with the best intentions.
R- Intentions, yes.
But the final result is actually, the final condition is worse than the first.
R - Yes but you know when you'd every ha'penny to earn it were different weren’t it. And they worked, biggest part on ‘em. And it were t’same wi’ the tacklers, they relied on the weavers making their wage.
Aye.
R - Well, if a weaver come and a picker had broke, he went and put it on. There were no ‘Oh bugger 'em’, and finish a conversation.
Yes, aye.
R - Me father allus used to say they make your wage, does them weavers. You allus had to be on your toes, no laiking about, and it were so and I've allus stuck to that. I've never been one that could sit about a lot. When I were at Johnsons or wherever I've been, if I've had nowt to do I'd have a walk all round me set. Then if any weaver wanted owt, they weren’t trailing about, you were on the job then.
Aye.
R- And at Johnsons, bugger this like being sat at the bench making picking bands or sommat. I'd have a walk all round and nowt doing, then I'd happen go, they had a bit of a cabin in t’mill, I'd go in there, sit down then I’d be up. “Tha’rt allus on thee bloody feet.” There were some of ‘em there, reight honest, they'd sit there for a couple of hours and never bloody move.
Aye.
R- And then happen two weaver’s ud come in, “Bloody bell fire!! Two of the buggers now!” Well it were their own fault.
Aye.
R- Same as I’ve done yonder and I used to do at other places where they’ve had belts. Either at dinner time or first thing at morning I used to go round looking at the belts. If I saw any breaking I'd have ‘em up before the engine started.
(350)
That's it aye.
R- ‘Cause I could chuck ‘em up as good as anybody but I never liked it, no.
No. I should just explain, that's something people won’t understand listening to this. What you’re talking about is going round and looking round your belts when the engine was stopped.
R - When it's stopped.
So that if there were any repairs wanted doing you could do 'em then instead of having to mount a belt while the shafting were moving.
R – That’s it aye.
Aye. Because I've always said that it’s a mugs game that you know. I realise that people are very good at it and all the rest of it but when you think about it, and when you look at them old belt fasteners with hooks on.
R- Aye, aye.
Can’t you just.
R- Aye, they were real uns weren’t they.
One of them coming round and catching in your overalls.
R- Oh they were deadly things.
Instant disaster.
R- Yes.
I got ‘em out the other day and we fit 'em up on to a piece of belt and did some photographs of them. Do you remember when you give it to me?
R- Aye. They were a novelty weren’t they. They’re a wonderful invention in a way.
Aye, and funnily enough Roy has one in his box.
R- Aye, I give him one.
And he said he had an idea there was one belt somewhere, just one belt somewhere in that shed that has one of these in still. But he said he couldn’t think where. I said that if I ever found it I’d cut the belt.
A - Aye.
1 said somebody walking past and it just happened to catch in their clothes, they’d be off round the shaft!
R- I know when I took that up Roy said you can’t fasten belts wi’ that! I said course they can!
Aye.
R- And I showed him, “Will it hold?” I said “Thee try and pull it apart.” And they used to cut like razors and all. Bloody sharp.
Aye on the inside, aye. Anyway you see we started talking about clothing and we’ve got round to belt fasteners! That’s no bad thing, no bad thing, don't worry, all good stuff. It’s all good stuff. We'll get back to my noisy piece of paper. We were on about what your mother wore in the house.
R- Yes.
Now she'd nearly always have a pinny on in the house wouldn’t she?
R- Yes.
Now tell me Fred, were it what you call a proper pinny, you know, made up. Or were it like a fent, you know, like a brat. [A brat is a fent wrapped round the waist.]
R- No, a proper pinny, made up.
Aye. Now if she went out would she keep her pinny on?
R – No, she took her pinny off.
Aye.
R- And I never knew me mother do it, but a lot of women, they had a pocket in and they allus had their purse in that pinny pocket.
(400)
Aye. They never left it in a drawer or owt of that. Now have you ever seen a woman with a pinny on take one corner of it and tuck it into her waist band?
R- Aye.
Now why did they do that.
R- Well, I've seen 'em do it when they’ve been kneeling down. I don't know why but I’ve seen ‘em. I've seen weavers do it, women weavers when they were sweeping, pick it up and tuck it in then they’d go down on that knee. Probably if they knelt on the pinny it ud pull it down or sommat like that.
(25 mins)
Pull on it aye.
R- Yes, I’ve seen that when they used to sweep for their self.
R- Regular do with some women, tuck it in up here, just one side, ‘cause they allus went down on that knee. Just one corner aye.
And of course they wouldn’t call 'em a pinny in the mill.
R- No.
They’d allus be, you tell me the name Fred.
R- They called 'em a brat.
That's it.
R- A brat aye.
A brat, aye like they used to be a fent didn't they, you know, a fent and they always called ‘em a brat.
R- A brat, aye.
Now tell me something, in the mill when people were wearing a fent like that, have you ever seen 'em use an apron hook?
R - Apron hook.
Have you never come across an apron hook?
R – No, not to my knowing.
Reight, next week when I come down I'll give thee one. I have a box full at home.
R- Aye.
I’ll give thee one, you'll be suited with that. They used to have a thing, it was like, it was a piece of brass that acted like a button if you will and they were shaped. Some ud be like four leaf clovers and some ud be hearts and some stars and things like that. And then from the back of it there were welded on to the back, brazed on to the back were a piece of brass,. thick brass wire, and it went out straight from the back and then bent at right angles and then it went along about two inches and then on the end it was turned up into a hook. And what you did was put your brat on with the joint at the front and put it across put the hook through, one piece, one side of it and pull it through until it were like a button. It couldn’t go through any further and then just pull your fent up tight, and
(450)
hook the hook through and then turn it round.
R- Aye.
And it were an apron hook.
R- No I can never remember them no.
No. Well I think they're very old. I've never come across anybody yet who can tell me what they are.
R- No.
The only reason I know what they are is that it was written on the box. It was some old stock out of an ironmonger’s shop in Barlick.
R – Aye.
And I’ll bring you one. I’ll not forget that. I’ll bring you one down.
R- Aye they are interesting, aye.
Aye 'cause as I say I have a box full. I keep giving 'em away, like they're going down now but I have a full box, all wrapped in tissue paper and the price is on the box, two pennies.(2d.)
R - Twopence aye.
Aye they’d be ten bob now. They charge eight bob for them silly sex pistol buttons that they get. They're eight bob you know. They're forty pence.
R - That's it aye.
First time I saw one of the lads wi’ one I said Christ Almighty! I said have you paid eight bob for that.
R- Eh, aye.
When you think, eight shillings! Anyway we're getting away from the job again. Course it's clothing is that, apron hook. Did your dad mend the family’s shoes?
R- If they weren’t too bad he used to heel 'em and sometimes he soled ours, lads, and then filled 'em with studs.
Aye, what did he sole 'em with?
R- Leather.
Aye but did he used to buy proper boot leather?
R- Yes, he used to buy it from the ironmongers, they used to sell soles ready cut didn't they.
Aye, that's it yes. I were just wondering if you’d ever had ‘em done with a piece of belting.
R- No. But sometimes if you’d worn 'em off just at one place he used to put a patch on there, nail a patch on.
Aye, that's it. Aye it ud be uncomfortable walking for a bit till you'd levelled it out.
R- Till it got levelled out a bit aye.
I’ll tell you a funny story about that. Newton Pickles tells about being at a mill, at this mill and they were putting a belt in and typical mill owner you know, he comes along and he looks at this belt and he says to Newton. It were a big belt it were about fifty or sixty foot you know, like a thirty foot belt doubled you know.
(30 mins)
Eight inch belt. And he says to Newton, “There’s a lot of joints in that belt!” Newton turned round and he says “Hasta ever seen a cow sixty feet long?”
R- Fred laughs.
You can just imagine it can’t you.
R- That's it aye.
This fella had never thought, he went bright red and walked away.
(500)
R- Aye.
Aye he says Hasta ever seen a cow sixty feet long?
R- Aye that’s good isn't it.
Aye, anyway. How many outfits of clothes do you think you ever had at one time?
R - Only two. Weekday and weekend.
That's it aye. And tell me, when the weekend outfit started to get a bit shabby and weekday wore out did weekend get to be weekday?
R - Got to be weekday then.
That's it aye. And how often did you have clean clothes. You know, your suit and what not, did it ever go away to be dry cleaned?
R- No there were nowt of that then.
R- No, they were allus just shook and brushed and that were it.
That’s it aye.
R- They used to go purple. It were supposed to be indigo, navy blue you know. Indigo dye or sommat they called it but it used to go purple wi’ age.
They used to go shiny an all didn't they.
R- Aye they did.
Aye serge trousers, they used to go like mirrors.
R - Aye. [Fred laughs]
Have you over heard of anybody being sewn in for the winter?
R- Sewed in?
Sewn. Having their clothes stitched up, keeping 'em on all winter.
R- No.
No, I haven't either. Did your mother belong to a savings club for clothing and boots and shoes or owt like that?
R- No.
They'd pay as they got them, that's it. Would the boss tackler at the mill dress different than the other tacklers?
R- Well, a long while back there were no such thing as a boss tackler at some of the firms. There were just three tacklers or four tacklers and they just looked after their own set. There were no boss tackler but when you got to these big firms where there were happen seven or eight tacklers, there might be a boss tackler there but no I don't think they’d dress any different.
(550)
Have you ever seen a tackler, this might sound a silly question, but have you ever seen a tackler wear a bowler hat for work?
R- No, but I’ve heard about ‘em.
Aye.
R- Aye billycocks.
That’s it yes.
R- Aye, I’ve heard about 'em and I’ve heard about a, now then, this Pickles ud happen be some relation to these other Pickles. Johnny Pickles at Sough.
Aye.
R- He were one of the bosses and he’d go in the mill and he’d think this isn’t just reight. They tell me he used to walk round the mill with his billycock on. He used to pull his billycock off, put it on the cloth at top and then get under the loom and alter the bands or sommat like that. Then he'd get up, put his billycock on, and set the loom on and if it wasn't just reight, take his billycock off again and put it on the loom and then wander off.
I have an idea, you know Johnny Pickles at Brown and Pickles, I’m just about sure that were his uncle.
R - Aye it would be.
Because Pickles used to live at Kelbrook you know because Johnny Pickles’ father were the cobbler at Kelbrook.
And I think first job that Johnny ever had apart from the office job, they give him an office job and he run away, but I think the first job he ever had were doing bits of things on the engine down at Sough. Or at least he used to go down there regular and laik about round the engine when he were a lad. No that's right, they were related.
R- Yes. They tell me these fellas that wore these billycocks regularly, they used to get new crowns on 'em. They used to keep the brim ‘cause it fit to their head did that brim and they got a new crown put on when they got battered and out of shape. They reckoned that Johnny Pickles did 'cause he were allus bashing his wi’ going in the mill and bumping 'em.
Aye.
R - They got new crowns in.
Well I’ve never heard of that, I can believe it.
(600)
R- Yes aye. That's tale they tell like, you know, you've got to believe what you’re told.
Yes that's it.
R- When they were feasible and not big romancers. It's possible isn't it.
Yes. It's interesting is that, I can quite believe it. That's first time I’ve ever come across that, you're a little gold mine Fred. Did you notice any change in clothes after the first world war, did anything strike you about the difference in dress after the war? Either your own or women’s?
R- Well I think it came that gradual you didn't notice owt.
How about length of skirt? When did you first realise that the length of skirts was altering?
(35 mins)
R - Well it were young lasses that started wearing them a bit shorter. They used to wear well below the knee like when they went to school and then as they got older they, when they got about fifteen or sixteen there got to be a bit of a craze on and they were up to the knee.
Aye.
R- But that’s all that I can really remember about 'em shortening like that. I think the other were that gradual you never really noticed it.
Aye. How about colours Fred?
R- Well, they were fairly drab, there weren’t so many colours.
Aye.
R- Like during the war and after the war they were nearly all the old, you know, as we say blue suits and women ud happen have brown coats, grey coats and black uns. There weren’t a lot of colours about at all, and I mean all shirts were more or less what they call Clitheroe. They were woven in Clitheroe, satin shirts with a stripe in. It were well known were that. Clitheroe shirts.
Aye.
R- And then you used to put a stiff collar on, linen collars, celluloid collars.
Celluloid collars. I can remember them, I used to have some of them.
R- When they got worn they used to cut your neck in bits.
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Aye. Cheese cutters, aye. I’ll tell you where we used to wear them, on the choir. Eton collars and they used to come up under your jaws.
R- Aye.
How the hell they expected you to sing, but I’ll tell you why they did it.
R- Keep you up.
It was so you held the hymn books up.
R- Aye.
Aye. And then they went on to ruffs as well, that were a different job altogether, you could put your hymn book down. But them Eton collars, no chance.
R- No. [Fred laughs]
Once you'd got that on you'd got to keep your head up else you'd cut your throat!
R- You can see ‘em all can’t you like, you can imagine them all up in the air.
Aye you cut your throat if you didn't. What kind of clothes. Let's see, in 1920's you'd be about twelve year old. Well you were wearing these clothes we were on about. when you got so as you were a young fellow, eighteen, nineteen, twenty. What sort of clothes did you wear? Say you were going out, say for a walk wi’ a young lass, you were going to a dance or sommat, what kind of clothes did you wear then?
R- Oh you had your suit.
Aye.
R- There were no sports coats and flannels or owt of that.
Yes.
R - You had to have a suit on.
Aye.
R- And then gradually flannels came in they got to be all the rage did flannels and a blue blazer.
Aye.
R- I've had 'em both.
Aye. How about bags? Oxford bags?
R- I never had any Oxford bags, no. That were washed out.
Aye, I should think so an all.
R- I should think so, they were a gimmick weren’t they.
Aye. They'd be keeping weavers going somewhere though.
R - Aye there were plenty of stuff in.
There were enough material in a pair of Oxford bags to make three bell tents.
R- Aye.
Anyway, family life in the home. Well we've talked about you being at the table and not sitting down and about your behaviour at the table. Were your parents strict with you about anything, you know, like being cheeky or swearing or owt like that?
(700)
R- Oh yes, very Victorian.
Now I'm going to stop you there. I want to ask you sommat now. You say very Victorian, I understand exactly what you mean and I think most people would, but why do you think you use that turn of phrase to describe it?
R- It's a phrase that they've allus used I think.
Aye.
R- As I can remember. They wouldn't say like, Georgian or owt of that, George’s reign, it were allus back to the Victorian do.
Aye, aye and what do you mean when you say very Victorian? In what way Fred?
R- Well there were no such thing as sex mentioned or owt of that. Anybody having to get wed, you'd never hear me father and mother talking about owt like that or anybody having a youngster what shouldn't do. No, you never talked about that in the house. If anybody came in and happened to mention it me father ud shut ‘em up reight away.
Aye.
R- Aye, no. And as regards swearing, you never heard me father swear or, well me mother never did like.
Aye. And can you ever remember asking your mother about anything, you know, like asking her where babies come from or something like that.
R- No, no. It wore allus kept a reight dark secret.
Never mentioned?
R- No.
Aye. So when they talk about sex education nowadays, I mean you’ll just laugh your socks off because you never had any and yet you seemed to manage alright.
R - Aye. You'd to learn a lot yourself, I don't know, you'd to be sensible.
Aye.
R- Act reight in your head and that sort of thing.
That's it aye.
R- You got some clever blokes but there used to be a book called 'Health and Strength' and it were a very good book. I used to buy it and that it kept you on the straight and narrow.
[‘Health and Strength was first published in 1894 and is still in print.]
(750)
(40 mins)
R- And the saying in it were ‘Sacred is thy body even as thy soul.’ that were the motto of that and it stuck in my mind and I used it that way.
Aye.
R- And I allus thought well, you hear some of these clever blokes going on about going out wi’ lasses and what they'd done. I thought well it's really nowt to swank about.
Aye, that’s it.
R- Never appealed to me didn’t that.
Yes.
R - In fact I know one lad, held been telling up and down who he went with, well, it were one of me cousins. He bragged about it but he had to put a public apology in the paper.
Aye.
R- Aye, he had that and that did cap him.
When were that?
R- Oh back when we were about twenty. She were just a bit older than me, she'd be about twenty or twenty one and he’d be the same.
What year would that be about?
R- Going back forty odd year isn’t it.
Aye.
R- It quietened him, and it quietened a lot more of t’other lads an all.
It would do aye. How did that come about like, who made him put it in paper.
R- Me auntie.
Aye.
Aye, she did reight.
R- Now whether she, the lass, had done you know, she said that it weren’t so, she'd happen been to the doctors. I know it were hushed up in our house but we heard about it outside you see.
Well you would do if it were in the paper.
R- Aye.
Because it makes you really wonder what they had to gain in some ways. Because I mean it more or less draws peoples attention. I mean, you know what everybody says, they say hello, no smoke without fire.
R- Aye, aye.
And you see nowadays they go on about sex education, kids have to be taught this and taught that and taught the other. I don't know, it makes you wonder Fred.
R - It does.
Well I’ll tell you one thing for sure because the reason I know is that I can remember exactly where I was when this particular conversation took place. It was in a cloak room at a school and I didn't go to that school until I was eleven years old. It were a grammar school, and I can remember arguing about where babies came from. And I were wrong.
R - Aye.
And that were at eleven years old.
R- Eleven year old aye.
But I’ll tell you where a lot of people’s saving grace were that didn't live in towns, they were close to animals all the time.
R- Aye.
And I know with my kids at home, there's allus been cattle about, pigs sheep and what not and it's amazing, it's amazing. I’ll tell you a funny little story about that, it'll suit you. Two little lasses, one of ‘em just talking and t’other one two years older than her. That's Margaret and Susan, my two daughters. I had a dog it were a cross between a Jack Russell and a Lakeland. And you know what Lakeland's are like for lying with all their legs out. You know so they don't get trapped in holes and what not.
R- Aye.
This is true, this actually happened, Vera will tell you the same. We're stood in the porch one day and the lawn’s just outside over bit of back yard, you know, flagged yard like. And the dog's laid on it's back and the two kids are there, you know one just toddling
(850)
and just talking and the other one two yearn older, swallowed the bloody map, knows everything. Susan says to Margaret, “What's this?” “Oh, that’s what he wees through.” And there's silence for a minute or two you know and the dog’s sprawled on it’s back in the sun. “What’s this?” “That's where he does his business.” And it's quiet for a minute or two longer and me and Vera were looking at each other. And Susan says “What's this?” Margaret says “I don't know but me dad’s got one!” [Stanley and Fred burst out laughing] Eh ... we've laughed many a time about that.
R - Aye.
She says “I don't know. But me dad’s got one.” She hadn't got round to the knacker job, she couldn't understand what knackers were for, she could understand t’other two plain enough aye.
R- Aye.
Well we’ve laughed many a time about that. Anyway, where are we. If you did something wrong at home, how did you get punished Fred?
R- Strap.
Strap.
When you say strap, were it a belt or were it a shaving strop?
(45 mins)
R- It were a piece of belting what had come from the mill.
Aye, Ernie and his picking band.
R- And it were hung up. [laughs] Allus there to look at to remind you.
That's it.
R- If you did owt wrong you'd get it.
Aye.
R- Aye, allus hung up in one shop.
Would you say that your parents were too severe with you?
R- No. Not looking back, no.
(900)
Although some of us mates, they got to play out after dark and all that. We never did, we’d to be in.
No. That's it aye. Well my kids have never played out after dark. And of course there you are, I might be old fashioned but I don't see anything wrong with that.
R- No.
Did anybody say grace when you were having meals?
R- No.
Did you have family prayers at home?
R- No not family prayers no, but when we were going to bed we’d to say us prayers.
Aye.
R- Well, just like ‘Our Father’.
Aye. That ud be your mother?
Yes aye. If you had a...
R- And if it were cold weather we’d to say 'em knelt on the hearth.
Oh in front of the fire.
R- Aye.
Well that were looking after you. If you had a birthday, were it any different, you know, did you get presents or a party or owt?
R- No just got a penny for every year.
Aye.
R - Aye. When you were five you got fivepence, sixpence at six.
Oh well. That's not so bad. How did you spend Christmas? What did you do Christmas Day.
R - Well we used to look at us presents. We allus got a bit of sommat and if it were snowing we’d be outside and if it were frosty we’d be out or if it were reasonable at all me father ud happen take us for a walk.
Aye.
(950)
R - Until we got a bit older and then we’d to start going to Church.
Yes.
R- We used to go to Sunday School regular and then we’d to start going to Church as we got as bit older.
Would you say, in your young days, round about that time, that there was more went on at Christmas than Easter or the other way round?
R- Oh I think there were more at Christmas.
Yes. How about Easter? Can you ever remember anything about pace eggs, anything like that, have you ever come across that?
[The ancient Lancashire custom of ‘pace-egging’, once widespread, is still to be found in some parts of the UK. ‘Pace’ comes from pasch , Old English meaning ‘Easter’. Pace-eggs are eggs specially decorated for the festival. Usually they are wrapped in onion-skins and boiled; this gives a golden, mottled effect to the shells. Decorating eggs in this way is a centuries old Easter custom. The Wordsworth Museum at Grasmere in the Lake District houses a collection of highly ornate eggs, originally made for the poet’s children.]
Did you ever go rolling eggs you know, dyeing eggs and rolling them?
R- We used to dye 'em.
Yes.
R - And just for the fun of things we used to go and roll 'em about but we never used to go so far, just across up there in the fields and we used to roll 'em down.
That's it, never like an organised event.
R – No.
No.
SCG/11 April 2003
8,258 words.