THIS TAPE HAS BEEN RECORDED ON THE 23RD OF NOVEMBER 1978 AT 14 STONEYBANK ROAD, EARBY. THE INFORMANT IS FRED INMAN, TACKLER AND THE INTERVIEWER IS STANLEY GRAHAM.
Right Fred. We’ll follow straight on from what we did on the last tape. What pay did you get when you started work. Now wait a minute, when you started work part time of course you weren’t getting paid.
R- No.
Butt when you started work full time on two looms, how much could you make?
R- About twenty-eight shilling I think.
You could make so much on two looms could you, then? [1921]
R- But mind you, there was some reductions came after that, wages didn’t go up, they came down.
So that were, now wait a minute, let’s get it straight, what year did you start, was it nineteen twenty one?
R - Twenty one or two.
Twenty two, you'd be on full time wouldn't you, that's it. Thirteen you’d go half time and fourteen full time, that's it. In nineteen twenty two you could get twenty eight shilling off two loom in a week.
R - Two looms.
Now that was if everything went right wasn't it.
R- That’s it yes. No mishaps and good warps and full up all the time which we were then, there were no playing for warps.
And so you'd say that you'd be coming out, you could average somewhere around about what, twenty five bob a week, sommat like that.
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R- Oh yes, it were good money at that place. Hard work but good money. I wouldn't like to say what years they were, but wages kept coming down. They’d come down a time or two when I’d started working.
Aye. Now just to remind us again, what place were you working at then?
R - They called Bracewell Hartley’s.
That’s it, on the New Road, yes.
R- On the New Road.
And what sorts, what were you weaving then Fred?
R- Sateens, five shaft, just ordinary cotton sateens. It were only an ordinary quality, it’d all be for export.
Aye .. no colour in it.
R- No, it were mostly plain. Same back every time you know, thousands and thousands of pieces woven all the same..
How many looms did they have, Bracewell Hartley’s?
R – They’d four hundred and odd.
And how many would they have on them sateens then.
R- They’d all be on them, all on satins.
And would they be all on the same cloth, one sort of cloth?
R- They'd all be the same healds and reeds but just varied a bit in pick. Some’d have just a bit more pick in than others.
Would you say that was fairly common then Fred, for a shop to be on one sort of cloth?
R- Yes, one sort. Yes it were.
That's ideal really isn't it.
R- That were ideal really. I mean, if they could get back to them days with automatics they’d be laughing wouldn't they.
Yes. What sort of looms were there?
R- Cooper.
Were they all one sort?
R - All Coopers, spring tops.
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Spring tops.
R- But when them looms were put in at first they were all plain.
Aye. Just were like a scotch dobby, ah what do they call them, like a roller top on them.
R- They just had a plain rollers and then when this sateen order started coming they put all spring tops on and undermotions so they could weave five shafts on them.
So they could weave five shafts on them, aye. At that time at Bracewell Hartley’s how many looms would there be in a tackler's set?
R- About a hundred and thirty six I think.
In one set?
R- In one set.
So they’d have three tacklers for four hundred looms?
R- That’s it.
They were fairly going then Fred weren't they.
R- Oh they talked about tacklers following looms by the acre you know. That were a saying, they had an acre of looms had a tackler. And when you think about it hundred and thirty six, some a hundred and forty, and you double them [the number of looms per weaver] like with the spindles and buffers and all, all the spindles had to be kept tight and good buffers on.
How did they manage to follow a hundred and thirty six, hundred and forty?
(5 min)
R- Well for one thing you might say the looms had just got running, [were new]
there were no trouble with the looms. They were kind of a light loom and a light weave, they weren't heavy sorts thrashing at the loom and they' d very few breakages. Pickers and shuttle pegs were the biggest breakages what they had.
Would you say there were any difference in quality of loom furnishings then to now? You know, like shuttles, leathers, pickers?
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R- Well, they’d a lot less shuttle and they had a lot less work, they ran better did them little shuttles, they were perfect. They were made of good woody and I will say this about Hartley’s, what I can remember now looking back, he bought the best. It were the best leather, best buffers, best shuttles, and best shuttle pegs. I daresay he gained a lot with it at the finish. In fact buffers, it cost as much as picking bands did the buffers that he used. They lasted.
Were they leather buffers?
R - Yes they were some kind of chrome. [leather]
I know sommat of that. Under the engine house we have some old leather there that they must have got out of a mill somewhere. Jim’s tried all sorts but we can't find anything it'll do for at all. They are like a short leather if you will, they're just the wrong size for anything like and the wrong weight but beautiful leather Fred. Chrome leather, and two pieces sewed together back to back you know, beautiful stuff. You know, the sort of leather that you don’t see nowadays, not full of oil and what not you know.
R- And you don’t know what they've been bought for?
Well they weren’t bought, I think they got them out of Withnell when they bought that mill at Withnell. They've been down the cellar there you know I don’t know how long. But that leather nowadays, if you were going to buy it it’d cost you a fortune. Anyway, you’re all on the old style there, carrying your pieces, plaiting them on the loom, carrying your own weft and sweeping your own looms. Now, I've often seen some of these old weavers, like Friday afternoon, they’d stop the looms Friday afternoon and sweep the looms. Did you used to do anything like that, or was it Saturday morning or what?
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R- Well, some of them finished at Friday afternoon but most of them at Saturday morning. But you need to sweep round, say you had four with more or less full cops in and you go and sweep round a bit with all the looms running. Then when one stopped you came in and set it on and waited while you were all straight again and then went and swept a bit more. You could be on for an hour sweeping round if things weren't going just as they should do and then the biggest part of them was swept when they shouldn't be you know, at meal times and that. They were very reluctant to stop the looms to sweep ‘em.
How keen were such as management and tacklers on keeping the looms clean?
R- Oh they were very particular were the tacklers, all the looms had to he swept and oil holes picked out you know, where the oil went, and all to be oiled. All the trap rods to be oiled when the warp came out. And that tended to good running. You wouldn’t find any worn parts on them looms in them days. Unless there was sommat out of the ordinary happened. I don't think they’d ever have any brasses worn out in the cranks or any picking balls what wouldn’t go round. But they'd only four loom in them days, they could watch them better couldn’t they than they can when they've fifteen or sixteen looms. Every time they give them a loom they double don’t they, the leathers and all that.
When you say they double the leathers do you mean they wear out quicker? Like because they've got too many to look after.
R- That’s it aye. Don’t you think that was what did it? A long picking band, a short picking band, finger leathers, check ends, bow leathers. The more looms a weaver
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has and the more breakages they have with them haven't they? It finds them a lot of work. In fact when they gave them more looms the tacklers did a lot more work I think for the weavers. Where they'd put a short leather on, once of a day they’d never think of putting a picking band on for a weaver, but as they got more looms they got more work did the weavers and tacklers had to help them with putting picking bands on or if they saw ‘em with a leather broken they'd put one on for ‘em.
How much of your wage did you give your mother?
R- Oh she got it all. Then you got a penny in the shilling back. If you earned twenty four shilling you got two shilling back in them days.
Well that wouldn't he so bad really in them days.
R- No but you had to put a shilling in the bank.
So what day did you get paid?
R- I got paid on Thursdays.
Thursday. So you’ve drawn your money on Thursday, you've come home, you’ve given it to your mother and you've got a bob for yourself to spend. What would you do with that bob when you were fourteen?
R- I'd go to the pictures, twice a week to the pictures. You go at Wednesday, it were threepence. There weren't too many went at Wednesday, they nearly all went Monday and Thursday. Then at Wednesday it ware threepence on the forms at the front. Well that left you a ninepence. If you go Saturday afternoon it might be fourpence. Then you buy a few toffees, or happen buy a comic paper. You'd nowt left after the weekend, it had all gone. But it weren't the case you got any more, you'd to wait while Thursday before you got your spending money again. But it went into the house. I mean, it weren't thrown away, me mother looked after that. And as they (300)
used to say them days, they'd be careful people. And as soon as the children started working we got on us feet.
That's right. That's something I find very interesting Fred. Would you say that it is true to say that a lot of families bought their houses when they got the kids working?
R- That’s it, yes. It made all the difference to ‘em didn't it. I heard me mother say that many a time. And yet now, when you get older you can realise it.
Yes. I think that’s probably the reason why Nelson, I think I'm right in saying that Nelson has the highest proportion of owner occupied houses in the country. And I think that's probably the reason why because they were small houses you know, they weren't bad to buy really and a lot of people bought them. Families bought their houses in those days when they had fair big families and they wore all working and plenty of work about. And like those houses have stuck in the families you know, the families have tended to stick together. Like leaving their houses to the kids.
R – That’s it, yes.
How would you say your employer treated you?
R- Well, personally he tret me well. I liked him. But he were like a lot more in them days, he were a bit slave-driving. 'Cause as I said before, it were their money what they had invested in the mill. And they were there to see that they got as much back for it as they could. They might as well have had it invested in the bank if they weren’t going to get any return.
Aye that's it. I’ll tell you something, I don't know whether you’ll know anything about it. When children were going half time, it was thirteen year old you could go half time. [I’m slightly confused about the question of Fred half-timing at 13 years old because as I understand it, the 1918 Education Act raised the school leaving age to 14 years and abolished half timing. Fred was born in December 1908 and so would only be ten in 1918 and should have missed half timing. The only thing I can see is that under the 1918 Act, half timing was allowed in rural districts until 1922 but specified work on the land. Perhaps the mill owners were taking advantage of this loophole.] Did you ever know of any cases where people went before they were legally old enough, before they were of legal age?
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(15 min)
R- No.
Would you say they were fairly strict on people being old enough?
R- Yes in my time. Then you are going back, say in my father’s time they talk about working at eleven didn't they?
Yes. I think Billy Brooks…
R- They didn't bother much about leaving school in them days
I think Billy Brooks were working at ten years old. They could go in when they were ten, half timing and eleven they left school.
R- Left school.
Aye. And you went weaving, how long were you weaving Fred?
R- Four or five years.
Five years so that ud be about 1927, something like that.
R- Yes.
How many looms did you finish up with?
R- Four, four were the maximum. At that place, there were nobody had more than four.
Nobody had more than four loom. Aye, that’s interesting. There would be five loom weavers elsewhere in the town weren't there?
R- In the town yes, there wore odd fives and sixes.
Yes. But sixes would have a tenter on?
R- Had tenters, yes.
Aye. So what happened then, you got up to four looms, 1927. What happened then?
R- Well, it’d be about 1926, me father were a tackler there at Bracewell Hartley’s and in 1926 they wanted a man at Birley’s at Albion Shed. The manager, he had to keep going across the road, they had two mills. So they wanted what you might call a boss tackler, a manager to run a few looms so me father got this job and there were two tacklers on full sets then there were me father on this little set and then they had
what they called an apprentice set. So that were like two little sets, a whole set divided into two. Well, the fellow what were on the little set, he lived at Colne and I don't know why but he packed up. So there
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were one or two overlookers out of work, but nobody applied for this little set ‘cause there weren't enough money off it really, it were only you know, like a weaver’s wage. So, with me father being there of course, he says: “You better go up and see about it. See if they’ll let you come.” So I went to see me uncle Willy [William Crowther, salesman/manager at A J Birley’s]and he said “Yes, you can have a start.”
Your uncle Willy being…?
R- He were t’boss. Well, you know, he run it for Birley's
Yes, aye. What was his name?
R- Crowther.
Crowther aye.
R- And he gave me like, the low down, what I had to do and what I wouldn't have to do. And when I went to see this tackler what had come on to me father’s set at Hartley’s I told him I was going to where me dad was at Birley’s because I had the chance of this little set and he said that I was doing quite right. So he told the boss like, Mr Bracewell Hartley and he came to me and he said “Th’art leaving us arta?” Just like that. I said yes and he said “Well, I'm going to give thee a bit of good advice Fred. Keys in bosses want knocking up with a toffee hammer, not a big hammer and t’nuts on’t wheels, the cog wheels are to stop them falling off the shaft not to fasten them on to t’shaft. They fasten ‘em on wi’ keys. Bear that in mind. And if tha doesn’t like and you want to come back, if there’s a vacancy here tha can come back.” I thought that were worth a lot weren’t it In them days.
Nice way to leave a shop Fred.
R- I always remember it, “You knock those keys up wi’ a toffee hammer!” And he is right, he were right. Some of them were bashing ‘em up wi’ big hammers and bursting ‘em.
Bursting the boss, aye.
R- Some like, they’d have a bottom wheel loose. They’d tighten the nut up before they’d fastened with the key. [As for Bracewell, I thought you know, will he play heck with me or will he say well, we’ve let you laik about long enough and you’re leaving us! But he didn’t, no, he were very nice about it and the tackler what I left, he were always friendly like. “How are you going on?” And we always stayed friendly right up to him dying.
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How much were t’tacklers getting then for their wage? What were they getting out of the weavers? What were the rate?
R- I wouldn't like to say how much it were in the pound at Bracewell’s but they'd have double a weaver's wage in them days.
(20 min)
What were it when you went to Birley’s at Albion Shed?
R- I think it were about one and fourpence ha’penny in the pound of what weavers earned. But they had some better quality stuff in at Birley’s you know, happen earn a bit mores money off them than what they could at Bracewell’s.
When you say better quality, better quality in what way Fred?
R- Egyptians, Egyptian weaves.
So, better yarn like.
R- Better yarn and a lot of picking, better pay. And you used to get, you had your troubles when you got some of those right heavies, fine reeds and you know, you used to get a lot of dawn in and that, shuttles flying out. But it was alright, we plodded on.
[Yarn shedding dawn during the weaving process caused trouble because it clogged the reeds and caused breakages.]
Aye. And when you went down, you’re a weaver. You've gone down there and you've got a small set. How would you start to learn tackling? I mean, what was the procedure then? Did you start and people mucked you out and you gradually got to learn or how?
R- Oh, in them days, if there was a young lad on a set of looms working under a tackler ... There were mostly women that worked there you know in the mill or fellows that were really too old to do anything else. If you had a young lad what were willing they just had to mug about with the tackler, there were no getting paid for it. You were stopping in at night, half past five in the day like, happen putting a warp in. He [the tackler] might have a big job on, you stopped in and helped him and he’d show you how to do and that’s how you learnt it with him. And then as time went on, sometimes he’d come into me alley and it's, “There is a warp out down theer, go and put it in.” And he’d run me looms while I went to put this warp in. I'd only be sixteen er seventeen and I were going up and down putting warps in.
Where were that? At Bracewell Hartley’s?
R- At Bracewell Hartley’s.
So you’re dad’s started bringing you on quietly before then. So by the time you went to Birley’s you’d have an idea of what you were doing.
R- Well I had more or less. I had a rough idea yes, certain. Running of the looms and changing wheels and such as that. And that were how they all learned in them days.
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Was there any such thing as a course at night school or anything like that Fred?
R- You could go to t’night school if you had the time. But they had to go to Colne to night school and it were a case of this, they'd to catch a train and if they stopped in the mill while half past five they hadn't really time to get any tea and get clanged to catch t’train to Colne. And why I didn’t go were, we’ll say you went at Wednesday night and this tackler had a warp out. You’re coming out about twenty five past five and he’d expect you to stop in and put that warp in. You wouldn't have to go to night school, you know, that were your job putting that warp in, never mind night school. That were how they looked at it in them days.
Yes. So there were no real encouragement to, you know, to go to night school and get all the theory.
R- No. Some of them what went to night school, they went thinking that they'd get a better job sometime you know, managing or sommat like that, they’d have all the theory. But there were some of them who turned out all right, but there were some of them were duck eggs even though they’d been to night school.
And so you wouldn't he serving an apprenticeship, you never served an apprenticeship like indentures or owt like that?
R- No. There wore no apprenticeship but you'd got to, like when I got this job at Birley’s, you had to change out of the Weaver’s Union into the Tacklers. I got into the Tackler’s Union without any bother.
Yes, well that’s the next thing I want to ask you really. How soon after you started weaving were you approached about going into the union?
R- Oh as soon as you got two looms. I don’t think you paid just as much. If it [the full subscription] were a shilling you might have paid ninepence when you'd only two looms. Then when you got to four loom you’d pay full up a shilling.
So you joined the Weaver’s Union straight away
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R- Yes.
And was there, how can I put it, if you didn’t want to join did you have to?
R- No not really, they weren't so bigoted about it.
But did most people join?
R- Biggest part on 'em did yes. And same as in my case, it paid me, not exactly because me mother paid it, to be in the Weavers Union so as if there were any chance of being a tackler I could transfer into the Tackler’s Union. It were no use not being in the weavers, then thinking you could walk into the Tackler’s because you couldn’t.
Is that right?
(25 min)
R- Aye. If you hadn't been in the weavers there'd have been no chance of getting in the tacklers. And it is more or less that today. But you know, all me life that were what I wanted to be, and I got to be one.
Aye that's it. What would you say were the benefits of being in the union? Apart from the fact that you could transfer into the tackler’s. What were the benefits of being in the union?
R- It was just a case that if you've to have any breakdowns or anything like that. Sometimes sommat would go wrong, but very seldom in a modern mill. You know there might be, in an old place, a cog wheel go, a driving wheel you know. There’d be a length of shafting stopped. Well, you’d draw a shilling or two out of the union for that.
Right, so like if you were losing money with them looms being stopped, if you were in the union you’d draw for that?
R- You'd draw out a little bit to make up for it. But I don’t think I ever drew owt out of the weaver’s union. Then there were that convalescent home if you were in the Weavers Union and you were badly. If you were off your work for so long they got you into a convalescent home.
What job was your brother doing?
R- He were the same, weaving.
And he didn't really like it did he.
R- No he didn’t. Though he never grumbled, he went.
Did he stay at Bracewell Hartley's when you shifted to Birley’s?
R- Yes he stopped theer until the thirty-two strike. Then he, after the strike he went back to sweeping.
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What was the hierarchy in the mill, then? The ladder of power, you know, starting from the manager at the top, the owner at the top then work your way down the rungs of the ladder and tell me what order people came in.
R- Well, at these little places there were t’boss at the top. And then there’d he what they call the boss cut-looker. If there were any spoilt cloth well he had authority to sack the weaver had the cut-looker. Then tacklers, they were in authority, they could set ‘em on and stop ‘em if they wanted. [The weavers] I don't suppose, well if the boss saw owt out of the ordinary he’d stop them. But them were who were the bosses over the workers. Then you’d have a boss in the twisting room, generally a loomer, and he’d be in charge of the twisters, if they didn’t pull their weight he were in authority to straighten them up a bit. But there were no managers at a lot of places in Earby, it were just boss cut-looker and tacklers.
I've heard people say that many a time what you describe, how the weaving manager at a mill, it were a job that they sometimes had a job getting anybody to take because they didn't like to take somebody like a tackler because to get 'em to take that job they’d have to give him a little bit more wage. It meant they’d be paying him too much so somebody once told me it were nearly always a cut-looker that got made into the weaving manager. Would you say that were right?
R- Yes. I think there is a lot of truth in that.
Yes, because it would take less of an increase to get him to take the job.
R- That’s it. There is a lot of truth in that. Although there were one manager at Birley’s before I ever went and he’d be theer when me father went. And he’d been a tackler, and a good tackler, and he got stopped because he were too good to the tacklers. If they were having trouble with a loom they’d go to him and tell him and then he’d go and nine times out of ten he’d get it going. He was so good a man. And I think that this Mr Birley had been walking round, and he'd seen a tackler sat down doing nowt and the manager was tackling one of his looms. And he must have seen these things happening several times because he didn't miss much when he walked round. He used to walk round the mill every day like. At the finish he got stopped did this manager for doing other people's work, not being strict enough making
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the tackler do it. He said it were his place to make the tackler do it, not do it himself. But he were one of them sort of fellows he'd do it himself afore have any bother. Well that didn't work with management.
And then, in the mill then in them days there were no sweepers, no cloth carriers, no roller carriers. There were just weavers then.
R- That’s all.
And weavers would all be treated the same? Now, thinking back, and try and be as fair as you can about this Fred, how do you think weavers were treated?
R- Oh they were treated harshly I should think. They were under the thumb all the time. As regarded to make as good a cloth as they could, and they had to make as much as they could. Tacklers used to sit on a form where they could watch the toilets and all that and they had an idea how long they'd been in the toilet, and if they were in it too long he might just have given them a bit of a hint. Although you know they only had four looms, well when anybody went in the warehouse for some weft and then they had a loom stopped, the next weaver [would set it on again] You know they used to work together did a lot of them. There were never any looms stopped. If there were a man and his wife working, they both worked together.
There was never any bother then about somebody leaving the looms running if they went out?
R- Oh no. They used to leave them running, t’other would look on for them.
Aye. What sort of an atmosphere would you say there were in the shed? Do you think that the weavers who were working in the shed…. I’m trying to be very careful here, how do you think they regarded the way they were treated? I mean, you’ve wove yourself, but I mean some of them would have been weaving for twenty or thirty years, do you think they had any strong views?
R- They had a chip on their shoulder had a lot of them, thinking they were being treated rough. Although it were a way of life in them days, it didn't matter which place they were, they were more or less treated the same. It were a case of this, to get as much cloth off as they could or else get out.
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Looking back would you say it was a harsh system?
R- It were, yes. If you think, they were always wondering whether the tackler were coming round and going to see you doing sommat you shouldn’t have been. And as regards like, you know, reading or [sitting], no good at all. Even if you had a book what you could read at meal time you had to put that book out of sight, you hadn’t to put it in your weft tin, you hadn’t to have it on your buffet, it had to be out of sight; then there were no danger of you reading.
Where did you take your meals then?
R- Well, if you stopped in you just sat on a buffet in your alley.
Aye, and have a clean tablecloth?
R- There were no tablecloths.
Well, there'd be cloth on t’looms wouldn't there.
R- Aye, but you hadn't to put your can on theer.
Is that right?
R- I mean you took your tea can, you brewed up at home then you took your can and you filled it up at work at the hot water boiler. It weren't boiling, it were just hot water. [When Fred says ‘brewed at home’ he means mashing the tea by pouring a little boiling water on the tea leaves. This would brew normally with just hot water in the mill.]
And did you have to pay for that hot water?
R- Not in my time. Not at Bracewell Hartley’s but they were doing at Birley's. Them that wanted to, a lot wouldn’t do. It was a penny a week for hot water. The warehouse man used to stand there when they were coming away from the office with their wage, he were stood there and you'd to put a penny into the tin. A bit harsh were that, weren’t it?
(35 min)
Well, I've often thought so. I mean, you reckon up a place like Bancroft, that kettle in the warehouse. I've worked it out many a time, they'd have eleven hundred loom running so eleven hundred looms, that’d be, well, if you divide ‘em by four, there were eleven times twenty five that’d be two hundred and fifty, there'd he about two hundred and sixty weavers and two hundred and sixty pennies a week. That’s a pound a week. Now in them days, a ton of coal cost about between ten bob and fifteen bob, it depended when you looked at it, say about fifteen bob a ton. I mean we’ll say it were a pound a ton. It didn't take a ton of bloody coal to keep that boiler going for a week you know?
R- No, there were a profit on the boiler weren’t there.
Aye. And I’ve often thought that when you come to think about it, the hot water boiler in a shop where they charged them a penny a week for hot water were the most profitable thing in the place Fred.
R- I should think it would be wouldn’t it, aye.
Aye. But anyway, one of the things about the mill was really that there were no such thing as labourers and tradesmen and craftsmen were there? It was a very loose knit organisation really wasn't it?
R- Yes, very.
But when you think about it, it was when you think about things like engineering where you had apprentices and journeymen and labourers and skilled men and foreman and such as that, a skilled hand was worth more that the others. But the only way that a weaver, a skilled weaver, could make more than an unskilled weaver in them days was by rolling more cloth off.
R- That’s it, being quicker. [There is an important principle embedded in here which I think the manufacturers had deliberately encouraged. They had a system which deprived the weavers of official status, the only criterion was how much you earned and this fostered competition in the shed between the weavers thus benefiting production and profit. This was as true in 1978 when Bancroft finished as it was in the days Fred is describing. The whole of the manufacturing system was geared to this end.]
Yes, aye. How long were pieces then
R- A hundred yards.
Would you say that was standard?
R- More or less, a fair good standard.
Aye. How many pieces could you get off a loom in a week?
R- Well, it depended on the picks as I’ve said before you know, or whether they put them on to three marks. You get some kinds in you’d get two off in a week. Then you might get another, a three marker, and you wouldn’t get one a week off it. As I said, they’d go from 45 pick up to 62 pick, like a fair jump weren’t it? And make three marks and all.
Like when you say 'make three marks’, marks come every….
R- Every 50 yards.
Every fifty so that’d be a hundred and fifty yards piece.
R- Hundred and fifty yard were that, yes.
Like a fair big piece of cloth.
R- Aye, you didn’t get a lot, but you did get them occasionally. And it’s funny, I always remember the heading, one black. You put headings in in them days.
That’s it. I’ve often wondered, is there any particular way they worked them headings out, or is it peculiar to each mill. I mean, would a two brown at the moment at Bancroft, it's a right good piece of cloth. Would a two brown at, say when the mills were running, would a two brown at Birley's be the same as a two brown at Bancroft?
R- No, they had their own headings for their own cloth. But they had to put them in in them days and to us, it's just as good as writing on it but they had to put headings in.
What do you mean put their headings in?
R - You know, with colours.
Oh that’s it aye, we still have a lot of them.
R- Aye, you have to put them in with the heading bobbin and it were funny were that, there wore some, they'd happen be one red and then some would be a four. “Oh blooming heck, a four!” You know it took you a lot longer to put a four in than one and they used to natter about all them little fractions of a minute.
Yes. When you were putting a heading in did you use t'same shuttle or did you have another shuttle with your bobbin in?
R- Well, some of them they had what they call heading shuttles and …
Aye, that they’d use….
R- And they used to he small and very slack in the box. And they used to throw it in and set the loom on ‘cause they’d only do two picks, there and back, and they never shoved it up you know, throw it in and it went into the box and across. And then you put two picks of red in then four picks of white and then two picks of red again you know? That’s why they had a lot of heading shuttles, they were less than the others and as I said, they used to throw them in and set the loom on. As soon as they knew it had gone up to the picker they set it on and it'd pick across and back again without any bother. I mean they couldn’t have set the loom on and woven four or five picks but just for a couple of picks.
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Aye. Now your father, in the first world war, he’d be tackling all the time, he wouldn’t go away to the war.
R- No, he were tackling all the time at Bracewell's.
That's it. So none of your family served in the army?
R- No. [Fred has made a mistake here I think. Earlier he said that his brother went to the war.]
Was there any other sort of work, I know I’ve asked you this before, but in Earby itself, apart from the mill, I’m not talking about going joinering in Skipton or owt like that but was there anything else in Earby besides the mill?
R- There was just joiner’s shops, builders, blacksmiths like, there were two blacksmiths, that were the main things, and other bits of jobs.
Yes. And Browns would have shifted up to Barlick by then, they wouldn't be at the back of the Albion.
R- They were at the back of the Albion when I were a kid.
Aye. But they moved up to Barlick like didn’t they so I mean that finished that job you know. There wouldn't be anything there.
R- That's right, aye.
How about girls, was there anything else for girls. If a girl didn’t want to go in a mill was there any other alternative for her?
R- No, unless she went servant or sommat like that, or dressmaking.
Yes. You said something interesting that intrigued me, just a while since, you said that really there weren’t many men in the mill, they were mostly women that were in, or the older end. Well if that were so, where were the men?
R- Well, it were a case of there’d be some would be farmers, and their wives would come to work in the mill. And they might he carters and the wives worked at the mill. Like them little, they’re little jobs aren't they? Gas works and such.
Yes. Would you say that, I don’t know whether you'd notice this but 1 mean .. during the first world war there were a lot of men got killed. And a lot of women went to work in the first world war that had never been to work before. And would you say that there were a bigger proportion of widows then? Was it noticeable at all?
R- Widows and spinsters? There’d be quite a lot of them.
But, I've asked that question badly you know. I have more or less put it into your mouth which is something I shouldn’t do. But was it noticeable that there were spare women of that age about?
R- Yes, it were. Well when I were thirteen or fourteen, after the war, you could notice it, there were several widows, war widows and women what probably the boyfriends had been killed in the war. They never got married.
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Yes, which is just as bad as being widowed really.
R- That’s right, and they never got on with anyone else.
Yes. What would the attitude be towards people that had been in the army? You know, like blokes that had been in the war and came back. I mean was there anything of the conquering hero bit, or was it just, you know…
R- No, they came back and where they’d left a firm to go, to be called up, they got to start up again when they came back. But you get a mill like Grove, that they were a bit slipshod happen here, and it were a big place. Some would go there 'cause they were quite happy to earn a little bit less money there than go to one of these other places.
Would you say Fred, I know you were very young at the time but I mean with hindsight, looking back, would you say there was any difference between, any noticeable difference between the men who had been at the war and the men who hadn’t gone?
R- No, I never noticed.
No. The reason I asked you that is that I know from talking to you and talking to one or two other people, that they did, the fact that they’d been to the war and been away and been abroad altered their outlook on life and they were different men when they came back than when they went. I was just wondering whether anything of that sort had struck you about the first world war?
R- No it didn't strike me about the first world war.
I mean, a good way of putting it I should think was at the time when you were working in the mill. Was it possible to more or less pick the ones out that had been in the army you know. Could you tell if they were for any reason?
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R- The young fellows what had come back, well all you could tell then were really with their smartness and it wore off eventually and they were just like anybody else. And things were bad you know, there were none of them could swank so much about “I’m going to do this, I’m going to do that.”
Aye, that’s one thing about it isn’t it because very shortly after they came back, 1918, I mean they had ten years and then they are coming into it weren't they, hard times.
R- Aye they were bad times.
SCG/24 April 2003
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