THIS TAPE HAS BEEN RECORDED ON THE 30th OF NOVEMBER 1978 AT 14 STONEYBANK ROAD, EARBY. THE INFORMANT IS FRED INMAN, TACKLER AND THE INTERVIEWER IS STANLEY GRAHAM.
Narthen what I'd like to talk about now Fred, we'll move away from marriage and domestic things and we'll go back to the mill but more specifically what I want to do is talk to you about the mills or the mill you were working in during the second world war.
R- Yes.
So first of all let's get round to Adolph Hitler, his plans for Europe. When did you first become aware that? That all was not as it should be on the Continent of Europe, you know, when did you start to become aware that things weren’t just..
R - Well I should think about 1938. I were working wi’ a fella what, he used to read a lot and he were a fair good talker and he got me thinking about what were going on. Hitler Youth Movement, Mussolini's Movements and I don't think it really came as a surprise when war were declared.
What sort of things were being said then?
R- Well, they were in a bad hole in Germany weren’t they and Italy, and he's booming 'em all up. He finds ‘em work and so much of their wage stopped every week for what they were going to call workers care. They were all going to get a motor car a piece and this fella, he says, “I can’t see that, it's going into armaments.” You know we used to think about it until, may be we thought that much about it while we come to believe it but I think we were on right track. Then of course when he [Chamberlain] went across and come back again. “Peace In our time.” He said "Don't believe it, don't believe it” did me mate. And then one Sunday it were declared weren’t it.
Aye. War. And what was your understanding Fred of what actually started world war II?
R- Well, he [Hitler] couldn't make a do in his own country, he’d taken all out what he could. So he were going to have to go somewhere else and get some stuff from somewhere else and he went into Czechoslovakia didn't he and Poland. Mussolini, he started it off didn’t he in, what were it, Ethiopia. He went there didn’t he. Haille Selassie. You just
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couldn't think that he could carry on in his own country, a country what were down at bottom like they were. And their money were worth nowt and then they starts finding work for everybody and booming.
And so war were declared.
R - Aye ‘cause they'd nowt else, they wanted some money and things from other countries, that's how I put it.
What were the first, what were the first signs, apart from war being declared, what were first signs that we were actually at war? That you could notice locally.
R - Oh it didn’t come while well, were it 1940.
Aye it were September 1939 declaration.
R- There started being movements all ower didn't there like, soldiers moving about and these barrage balloons going up in London. I can remember going down to Aldershot, I think it ud be about 1940, to see a cousin what I had down there and all these balloons were up and all these air raid shelters in the gardens and all windows stuck up with Sellotape {Ordinary sticky backed paper tape actually. It was put on to minimise flying glass in case of bomb blast.]. There were just a bit of a do, we were out one day and a siren went. We all pushed into a dugout that there were, what did they call 'em, them shelters what they put up?
Anderson.
(5 mins)
R- Aye and then in a bit it went all clear. Nobody said they'd heard owt it must have been a false alarm or sommat,
Aye.
R- But all the railways were blacked out, all the streets were blacked out, motor cars were blacked out.
That were Earby an all?
R- Yes. Aye, it were, you had a flashlight you carried. It only had to be the size of an ha’penny or sommat had the light. You'd to have some tissue paper across and a piece of cardboard in.
Aye. How about rationing?
R- Oh and then food rationing came on. It were a heck of a job were that and we got landed in a bad hole as regards some of the rationing and that were coal. We always kept a good supply of coal in, I'd never have less than a ton I don't think, of coal in the coal place. It were a very big coal place and this is the cottage I'm talking about aside of Well.
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And the toilet, outside toilet that it were, it comes to be made up. The tippler weren’t working. So I told the landlord and he sent for somebody and they says, “Oh, the flag for the tippler’s in your coal place. We can’t do owt about it till you get some coal used up.” Well, we’d got a good stock in for, you know, when winter were coming. He said “The only way is to get it down and then when you get down we can have a look.” So instead of us happen moving coal somewhere else we burnt it up. Then when we got down to a few hundredweight this rationing came on wi’ the coal job and we were floored to start with, and if we’d still have had like a ton in we weren’t stockpiling for the sake of the war, it were a thing we allus did. And when they come to lift this flag up, I were really surprised how far down this tippler were. And the fella put the flag back. He said “I'm having nowt to do with it.” And from that day onwards we used to have to go to the well, fetch two buckets of water and keep teeming it down the toilet to flush it. That were it, we never got any alteration to the toilet and it upset us with the coal job. But we were lucky with some of the other things. Me father used to buy a hundredweight of soap at once, 'cause he were very, very faddy with his hen huts. He got it off Preston Farmers and every so oft' he cleared a hut out and he used to scrub it all down with hot soapy water, all the lot, and then when it dried up he’d creosote inside. You could get some creosote then and it were nearly clear. [Creosote was one of the by-products at the gas works and you could always get it there.] And he used to do it with that. Well he used to use a lot of soap and just before soap rationing came in he’d got a hundredweight and it were the same with tea. He used to buy tea seven pound at once in a tin. Seven pound tin of tea at once. Well he’d got one of them in and big does and little does you know. We were still getting a little bit of rations, we were never without tea. And he used to get some rough flour, I don’t know why or what were to do with it and he used to mix it up. He mixed his own mash up and he used to put some of this flour in. Well it were good enough to bake with were this flour. So we were alreight, he used to keep this flour, he’d have a big bin full, two hundredweight of flour happen when it started and it were quite good enough to use as I say for baking.
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Aye.
R - I don't know, when it were getting down to the bottom it were happen going off a bit then, but we were alright, bit of rations we could get.
So like with the hens and garden and…
R - Aye we didn't do so bad. But meat job, eh.. bit of meat what you could get. Sugar, that were a bad do, and then there were clothing coupons.
Aye.
R- And we were on overalls then, that North Valley Services [commercial contract clothing suppliers and launderers. Based at Colne on North Valley Road.] came and they wanted so many coupons. Well, we were better really giving them the coupons than what we were buying overalls and washing 'em and all that us selves 'cause although we weren't without soap, you used a lot of soap washing your overalls and there weren’t many coupons left then to buy any clothes. In fact I don’t think I got any new clothes during the war. Then the Home Guard came along and I went and joined the Home Guard. Well you got fit up then with a uniform and you'd go to Home Guard twice a week and on duty sometimes twice a week, well you allus wore their clothes then and shoes, you wore their shoes and when they wanted soling you got ‘em soled.
Everybody gets the idea nowadays like wi’ that television programme, Dad's Army, that the Home Guard were always a bit of a joke but it weren’t really were it?
R - No it weren’t a joke. In fact it were very hard work. We used to, I'm not saying that drill, we used to drill. But going up on to Pinhaw, we used to go up there be nine o'clock (Pinhaw) and we used to come off at six o'clock at morning. It were alreight saying like, four off and two on, but you never got no sleep and it were blooming cold and windy up there. And it were a fair walk from the hut what we had to a sentry box and you used to be in the sentry box for half an hour and then walk back again and back. There were allus somebody coming up to see that you were on duty but they came up in motor cars. It were a little old scratty hut what we were in. It had a stove, we didn't half give it some hammer with wood! There were plenty of wood and then somebody ud happen put a sod on the chimney at top, smother you. Allus a bit of fun. And one time you’d to, you had some ammunition but you’d to put a clip in but you hadn't to put one down the spout. [In the chamber of the rifle.] You'd to keep your fingers on the clip and push your bolt ower top.
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R- There were two fellas what had both been in the fourteen eighteen war and they’re going to go out and one says “Oh I don’t know whether I’ve put one down the spout or not.” Sergeant major, another fella what had been in the fourteen eighteen war, he says “Well pull the trigger and see.” And he pulled the trigger in this hut what we were in. It ricocheted all ower the place did this bullet and dust flew off the walls, it must have hit about all four walls. But just imagine, “Pull trigger and see.” Instead of opening the bolt. So that were another lucky experience what we had. Then another time we were going up to, we knew there’d been a bomb dropped up on Pinhaw but we didn't know where and you were going up and you'd only reight little lights on, hadn't motors you know.
(15 mins)
R- You couldn’t really see where you were going and eventually they came to this big hole in the road. They'd dropped one on the road. So we’d to get off there and we’d to walk it and then night after they had to go round Elslack to get to it, they couldn't get up here.
And what were there when you say you had a sentry box up there. what did you reckon to be doing up on Pinner? (Pinhaw)
R - Well you were watching for, on duty, on guard.
Aye.
R - With being on there. you know, you could see all over the place. Any motor cars what came on you'd to pull 'em up, anybody coming on. We just had a funny do, there were a motor car came and stopped under the wall. We guessed what it were. Anyway me mate and me went and they nearly had a fit when we popped a flashlight in. And what were they doing? Oh we've just come up to do a bit of courting. So me mate says “I'll tell you what to do, get back reight away afore anybody else comes up” And he says “Oh, thank you very much.” And off he went. I thought poor fella, if it had been one of t’other silly blokes what were wi’ us he’d have booked number and all the lot for coming up there.
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Aye.
R - Probably he’d have getten in bother for wasting petrol coming up there and then it wouldn’t be his wife what he were with. Off he went, well that were the only incident we had. Bar some silly beggar took a .22 rifle up one night and he had a shot at a grouse or sommat. Well, still of night, this here little bit of a crack were heard down in Sutton I think. And someone must have said like there’d been a shot up on Pinhaw and wanted to know all the particulars what this shot were. Anyway he had to admit had this fella that he’d taken a .22 up and had a bang at a grouse. Well, that were very illegal weren’t it. Both ways. But we had some fun and yet there were many a time when you didn't feel like going when you'd had a hard day and it were nearly like being in the army. You were compelled, you were forced to go. If you didn’t go you were pulled up wanting all the why and wherefore. And there were some farmer’s lads, there were one farmer’s lad from this side of Lothersdale. It were nearer for him to come to Earby than go to Crosshills and he used to come on an old bike and it were absolutely swilling down one night and he didn't turn up and as I say, this sergeant major jumps on to him like a ton of bricks, why hadn't he come. Well he says it were raining. “Don’t you know there's a war on?” Well he says “I’ve been wet through once you know on the farm.” “Well wi’ being a farmer’s lad you’re exempt! There'll be lots of lads out there wet through!!” He gives him a dressing down like that. Give 'em a bit of authority, put ‘em a stripe or two on, and they were god almighty. But eventually we had these here tests and all that, if you passed these tests and then you were called up into the army you went on full pay reight away. Well, I went in and I passed all the exams I went in for. But map reading were my favourite. We had a mock battle one time.
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Crosshills attacking Earby and I had a friend, a farmer up there, and he come down. He says “Oh Fred, I've a bit of information to give thee.” He says “I can just tell thee the way Crosshill's lot’s coming.” He says “They’re coming to Bleara Side. They’re getting off at Bleara Side then they’re coming down by Copy House and down in to Harden Nick. I heard them talking.” Oh I said, that’s a good do. Aye, coming down into Kelbrook like.
R- He says “I thought that's a good do I'll go and tell Fred.” So I saw the, oh what do you call him, the major. I says “I've a bit of information. I have an idea where Crosshills is coming on Sunday. I didn’t tell him this fella had told me. I says “I've mapped all the land out.” “Oh, ridiculous talk is that Fred, they'll never come that way, ridiculous talk they'll not come that way.
(20 mins)
So they have us all over the show. Well before you knew where you were we were all smothered, we were all surrounded wi’ Crosshills. And they just came exactly way that this fella told me. Well we were beat. And we had another mock battle at Colne, there were two of our lads, they got into police station at Colne, into Colne police station and held ‘em up at the back of the counter. And they got into, oh and the Town Hall had to be open an all and they got into the Town Hall at Colne. Aye, we got shot on Valley Road! [laughs]
Oh hard luck Fred. [Stanley laughs] So were you actually called up or were you deferred?
R- Deferred, I registered, I registered yes.
Yes. But why were you deferred, because of your occupation.
Occupation. Weaving, they were weaving government stuff you know for the war.
Were all the tacklers deferred?
R- Up to a certain age. I don't know what it were. Happen these young ones you know, what were just starting at about twenty or sommat like that, twenty one, they were called up. And I kept getting deferred every time. Every time it were coming to my age I got deferred again. It were because there were one set of looms stopped. They had to stop one set and he got a job down Wolverhampton but he didn't last long afore he were back, it were a rotten job that going down to Wolverhampton where they were getting bombed. So he came back up here and he were older than me but he’d had a bit of bother wi’ a woman and he wanted to get away fray her. But it weren’t long afore he come back and he got to come back to the mill. He went a working at Pickles's then at Barlick. They must have had one called up and they wanted one, so he got there and he were there while he retired.
What difference did war make in mill?
R- Well, we got full employment, more or less. All the weavers had a full complement of looms running. But it made a lot more work with these black out, you know we had to go round and pull these black outs to every night and open 'em every morning when it were coming daylight..
Now that's something I’ve always wondered about Fred. How the hell did they manage to black out a weaving shed?
R- Well they said it were fairly efficient. They had some big frames made and then they covered 'em wi’ that gas tar and brown paper. They had heald loops in and bands and they used to pull 'em and up to the windows. And so I think they blacked some of the windows just round the edges.
Yes that's it.
R - Aye they said it were a fair good black out.
Warehouse and all?
R- Well warehouse windows, they had none on top at Birley’s. 'Cause the tapes were up above. The windows were just down the side.
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R- And the big windows up stairs in the tape room, I think them were painted. Blacked out, properly blacked out. And they just had side lights coming in. They’d be about eight foot by six foot would them windows on top of the second storey. Aye, one particular morning, there were such a crash a side of my bench and two weavers what worked there, [Fred laughs] they let out such a scream and I'd the wind up an all, I thought there's a bomb dropped! But nothing came through and when it came day light it were one of these windows what had shattered. It must have come loose, rotted away and come down. It slid down the top and dropped on to the mill roof.
(25 mins)
Aye.
R- And it dropped, must have dropped straight into the valley gutter and then fell ower and leaned against the slates, it didn't lean again the windows. So what a relief it were when it came daylight and we saw what it were. But I thought how lucky these two weavers and me were, we being reight underneath it. And if you’re ever going, we'll say from the fire station way towards Birley's mill, if you look up you'll catch, you’ll see these windows, and you can just imagine how it came down.
What were the hours during the war? Were they the same as they were before the war?
R- Same hours.
What hours were you working?
R- Were it seven till half past five? I’ve forgotten. I don’t know whether it were seven till half past five or not. They might have been reduced, I know we started at seven.
And what, half past eight till nine breakfast?
R- Yes.
And then twelve till one dinner.
R- Twelve till one dinner and I think it were five o'clock when we finished. It had been reduced. It used to be half past five.
And they were still on about, like just before the war there were starting to be agitation to do away wi’ kissing shuttles weren’t there.
R- Yes.
It got to the stage just before the war where they were almost ready for passing legislation weren’t they.
R- Yes.
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Now do you know of any firm that started with self threading shuttles before the war?
R- No.
And so when did that come in at the finish, can you remember?
R- Well it ud be about 1952 before I'd owt to do with them. Self threading shuttles, that were when I went to Johnsons, they were just starting then. At Johnsons putting ‘em on.
And Johnsons would be one of first to start wouldn't they?
R- Yes, and then all new shuttle guards. We’d all new shuttle guards to put on. That ud be, that were during the war.
Aye. How about during the war, did it make any difference to weavers wi’ men going to war. In other words were there a fair number of men weaving before the war?
R- No, but there were fellas sweeping then you know. A lot of fellas, they didn't want weaving. And in some sheds there’d be eight sweepers, they were all men. Let's see, I’d one worked for me and he got called up and then I got another and he got called up and me brother got called up. I think there were five sweepers got called up. But they replaced 'em wi’ elderly fellas and fellas what, you know, happen fancied sweeping to weaving. They got enough sweepers to carry on with.
Have you ever seen a woman sweeping?
R- Aye well only when they used to sweep their own.
No, I mean as a sweeper.
R- Never, no not to take a set on. Although like it’s possible they could have done.
Yes, I've never heard of one.
R- No.
I’ve never heard of a woman sweeping.
R- Specially now when they can wear overalls and that carry on.
[Very obliquely, Fred is flagging up an important factor here. It wasn’t until the war that women would wear trousers or overalls and the ‘modesty factor’ could have come into this question as loomsweeping involves getting into very contorted positions or lying on the floor.]
Aye.. and what difference did it make in the weaving shed? Did it make any difference at all with it being the war?
R- Well, they used to have fellas coming round testing the cloth.
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To see that it were fully up to standard. And I know one particular weave we used to have, if I remember reight they had about a 56 pick, and this fella came round and it had to go up to 58 and then they were weaving a lot of hundred yarder's and they'd be coming out at a hundred and three and hundred and four yards. Well he made 'em check all of them, and all them bits had to be added on and then at the end of the war the weaver had to be paid for 'em. They gained that way did weavers with having the inspector coming round.
Aye. How about tramp weavers would they disappear at the beginning of the war or how?
(30 mins)
R- I didn't see any. You know the models were going and gone and there weren’t models for them were there.
No. How about people waiting in the warehouse for work in a morning.
R - Oh that disappeared with the war.
So was there actually a shortage of weavers during the war?
R- There were, there were weavers got to work what wouldn’t have been entertained before. And I dare say they had to have a full compliment to get the government subsidy and government orders and all that.
Aye. Did the fact that they were getting short, I mean really when you come to think about it that were the first time since about 1800 they'd ever been short of weavers.
Would you say that were a bit of a shock for management, you know. Did it make any difference to their attitude towards the weavers? What I'm thinking about Fred is things like how hard they used to be on waste and cop bottoms in the old days. Things like that and time keeping and keeping people up to the mark and what not. I mean did they start, did things relax at all?
R - Oh they went easier, as you say they relaxed. They weren’t as keen. 'Cause there were one or two fellas and happen women there and they couldn't sack you during the
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war. There were a clause, they couldn't sack you unless it were sommat very, very serious and you couldn't give over. And I know the manager said of one of the tacklers, as soon as I can I’ll have shut of him but when the time came he didn’t get chance to get shut of him, he chucked up his self and went somewhere else. And I will say same, I did the same, as soon as that clause came off I left, I left an all and I went to another place. I'd had enough.
Why were that?
R- Well, before the war we had a few years hell on earth and then it did ease a little bit during the war but I thought…
Now I’ll just have to stop you a minute. When you say you had a few years when it were hell on earth, what do you mean be that Fred and when were that?
R- Well, 1932's up to 38.
Aye. You mean like hard times, you know.
R – Yes. There were never owt reight. Everything were wrong and it were allus you what were to blame and didn't matter, you hadn't to talk back. If they saw two tacklers talking. You'd to stand a side of your bench [in the shed],you hadn’t to go to the next bench and talk to your mate. The only time that you really could do were when you went out at breakfast time. You had about half an hour you know. You'd get your breakfast and you'd go out for a quarter of an hour. At dinner times that were about the only time you could talk or he’d [boss tackler or weaving manager]be after you wanting to know.
Yes, so what we're actually talking about now is the times like during depression that there were in Earby like 32/38 sommat like that when the gaffers actually had the whip hand. They knew very well that they could make you do just what they wanted because there were no work if you were out.
R- That's it.
And if they were being hard on you, the tacklers, they’d be being hard on weavers and all, I know.
R - Yes.
In what ways did they, what ways were they hard on the weavers?
(35 mins)
R - Well one way were if a weaver happen made a bad starting place, they'd be brought up into the warehouse and the manager ud say have you had the tackler, and they'd say yes and he hadn’t altered it. Actually it were nothing to do with the tackler, it were happen the weaver and there might only be two in hundred yards. And then they'd fetch you up, that weaver’s had you up for bad starting places. Why haven't you altered it? You know, that carry on. You were allus in the muck and the way he used to talk when this come on, you know. he'll go, she'll go. [after the war] I thought yes, he's going to be back at th’old do. I thought I mun be away from here afore he gets on to that again. So I disappeared and so did a lot more what he’d been on to. They got a bit of a shock did some of them type of managers what were going to go back to the old system after the war, ‘cause it never came about. There were one at Johnsons, I've heard about him. He used to say “Wait while the war's finished, I’ll have about twenty weavers stood in warehouse, I’ll alter this carry on!” He never got to do it ‘cause it never happened. You could see what they were, bullies, they were nowt else.
And when you got a chance to move from Birley’s where did you go to Fred?
R- I went to that New Bridge, little silk place, under the mill. It came from Barrowford I think.
Aye, and where were they weaving.
R – In, under what they call Big Mill.
That's it aye.
R- A side of the engine house, where you went into the engine house.
That's it, yes aye.
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R- Just a little shop. What had they, about two hundred looms.
Aye, what were they like?
R - It were all silk and man-made fibres.
Yes.
R - That were the first time, you know, that I could really say I had a full wage. 'Cause during the war they were full up but when somebody came home on leave, their wife, naturally they were off their work a week wi’ em. And there were no weavers to put on. Well them looms were stopped, well you’d nothing to draw off them. Mind you, you hadn't to bother.
What year were it you shifted to New Bridge.
R- 1948.
Aye, so that were after the war.
R - After the war.
So you had to do all the war at Birley’s?.
R - Yes aye.
I’ve got to be very careful with this question Fred because I don't want to put answers in your head. Was there any difference, you saw weaving before the war, you worked right through the war and you saw it after. Would you say that there were any difference in the attitude of people in the industry due to war when the war finished.
R- When the war finished?
Yes.
R- Aye. They got as we say slip shod, they didn't care a hang, 'cause they could see there were nobody coming into the trade. Rolls Royce were at Barlick. Rover were at Sough and they were going into these other industries and they were taking advantage then were workers in the mill.
Aye. I'll just have to feed you a little bit here because it's something that I don't think even now a lot of people round here don't realise. I just want to know whether you think it’s true. It seems to me that in some ways it were one of best things that ever happened to weavers were the 39/45 war. But in other ways it were the worst thing.
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R- Yes.
Because I mean actually I think that was when things started to crack because you know looms weren’t kept running as they should be and all rest of it. I mean, we know it were hard in the old days but I mean it did mean that folk were making a profit and they could afford to employ people. But it seems to me that the worst thing that ever happened to the manufacturers round here was the war in so far as for the
first time in living memory they were short of weavers. And the second thing was that up to then there’d been nothing else for weavers to do, but as soon as they brought such as the Rover Company into Sough, into Sough Bridge and Rover into Barlick, which eventually turned into Rolls and all the rest of it. They introduced different systems into the area which to anybody that was used to weaving, just seemed like heaven. Because I am right in saying aren’t I, even up to after the
end of the war it was still possible to work a week and get nowt for it.
R- Yes.
In the weaving industry if you'd had a bad week and got no pieces off.
R - That's it.
And yet they were guaranteed a wage if they were working at Rover.
R- Yes.
If they had a bad week there they got same wage as if they'd had a good week.
R- Aye.
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(40 mins)
So once you introduce something like that into a system, into a local economy like Earby, would you say that that was one of the big things that really knocked these manufacturers on the head.
R- Well, they had to give 'em a bit of a fall back had the weaving industry hadn't they. A weaver got a little bit of a fall back, might be only a pound when it started, and then it gradually built up.
When you say a fall back, what were that, like a guaranteed minimum wage?
R - That's it aye. They definitely had a pound on their wage other than their picks. And then that built up, I think as you were saying then, others had a guaranteed wage, well they had to start giving the cotton workers a little bit, and they kept adding on and adding on until they've getten nearly half a wage now haven't they I think in the cotton industry.
Aye well I think it's twenty six quid now isn't it.
R- Aye well it can be above half a wage can’t it.
Aye.
R- Aye and that's all come with the other industries I think. I don't think they'd ever have got it but for the other industries.
No, when you come to think about it, I wonder how many industries there were in 1945/1946 in the country where it was possible to work a week and get nothing. Work a week and get nothing for it.
R- No. I’d a cousin down at Leighton Buzzard and he were manager of a laundry and the fella next door he’d allus had a good job and he worked for Bryant and May matches.
And when I went down he says, “I’m glad you’ve come. Mr So and so will not believe me when I tell him the wages that there were in the cotton industry in Lancashire. When I've told him about weavers going home with twenty nine shillings he’s laughed at me and said it was impossible.”
(800)
And I said “Well, it is so.” And so I were introduced to this fella and he were a grand fella, I says “I’ll tell you what I’ll do, I’ll get some wages slips and send them down to you.” Hew said, “Don’t bother, I can believe you now when Mr Riddiough told me and you’ve told me. I believe you. I've heard about bad times in cotton but I never thought it were like that.”
There’s plenty of people at this moment, right now, they don't believe me when I tell them that even on a good week they can’t come out with a pound an hour out of that shed. And they don’t believe me. I mean people just won’t have it nowadays.
R- No they don't understand it at all do they.
No, and you know I get on me hobby horse about the job, because you know very well, I mean this last two months I mean, we've had the most stupid people coming round and talking about preserving Bancroft and its workers for posterity and all the rest of it. I ask ‘em all the same question Fred, “Would you come and work here?”
R- Aye.
They wouldn't come and work under the conditions that those lasses have to work in. I’m not talking about meself. I mean my wages. I’m responsible for all the mill and my wage is about, it's only just over a pound an hour.
R - Aye.
I mean, it's just ridiculous, they wouldn't come and work under the conditions that them lasses are working under.
(850)
R- No they wouldn’t, no not to preserve it.
And yet they want it preserving.
R - Aye it’s stupid isn't it.
I mean something like that it shouldn't be preserved, it doesn’t deserve to be preserved. Record it like we’re doing, take the photographs and then scrap it and chuck it out.
R- Aye.
And forget it because if they can’t afford to pay the workers a wage there's no place for it in this day and age.
R- No well, when I were telling this Horace Thornton about you and he says “What are they barn to do about the engine?” I said “Scrap it I suppose.” He said “Well, they want to do.” He says it’s no use preserving that and letting the weavers go is it?
No. He’s right.
R- No, stupid.
(45 mins)
Actually I don't think the engine is going to get scrapped. There's a firm from Rochdale who have put a bid in for the mill and its been accepted. It's just a question or it getting signed up. He came the other day in a helicopter, landed behind the mill to come and have a look.
[This was Malcolm Dunphy of Dunphy Burners a Rochdale firm. He was seriously thinking about buying the place but it fell through. Funnily enough I worked with him ten years later when I was doing the Ellenroad engine and we didn’t miss much!]
A – Yes, he said that a bloke had come in a helicopter.
Aye it's this fella and they're going to keep the engine in and make electricity with it because what they're doing, they’re manufacturing oil burners and gas burners and one of the things they’re doing all day is testing burners on boilers. Well they're making steam you see. And he says what they're doing now, I mean, all that steam’s wasted where they are now. But he says not here, he said we'll put it in an accumulator he says and run the engine off it and get us electricity off it.
R- Electricity. Aye well you’ve said that once before didn’t you, you could run a firm with electric.
Well that's what I told 'em. I told him when he come. I said that alternator’s big enough for what you're doing now, 120 Kva. I said, if it isn't, put another bugger in, there's plenty of room in the warehouse.
R – Aye.
You could put a 600 Kva in if you want. Give the engine some stick. I said you could make enough electric for half of Barlick with that engine. Anyway things are looking up. To-day, we had a telephone call today, Ernie [clothlooker]shouts me up to the office, telephone call for you. Went up, there's a fella on, “I understand” oh his name’s Lamberton. “My name is Lamberton and I understand from reading the Model Engineer that you have a steam engine for sale.” I said oh aye. He said “How big is it?” I said “Well, I think you're barking up the wrong tree. For a start off, unless you’re a very wealthy man, it's too big for you. Secondly, it isn't for sale.” He said “How big is it?” I said “Well, it's a big mill engine. It’s six hundred horse, but you can get more than that out of it. Let's put it this way, the flywheel weighs thirty five ton.” “Good God!” he says. [Stanley and Fred laugh.]
R- Did he think it were a model!
He says “Well, it was it says in the Model Engineer that it's for sale.” I said “Well, the Model Engineer isn't the Bible you know. And even the Bible's wrong in some places!” I said “We're just about fed up of people printing this without coming and asking. The engine isn't for sale.”
(950)
R- No.
I said it's been up for tenders for scrapping for a long while but in point of fact it looks as if it might be used. I said we're going out of business but another firm’s taking the mill over and it looks as if they might use it.
R- Aye.
I said “But as for buying the engine, I think you ought to have second thoughts really!” [both laugh]
R- Aye he’d think it were a model eh.
He says “My Goodness! It’s enormous!” I says is it heck, it’s only a little un. Which it is. That's the thing they can’t understand. I mean Mons were two cylinders and it were three thousand horse!
R- Aye.
Not six hundred, five times size of that, the fly wheel were thirty odd foot across. I don't mean the diameter of it. I mean the width of it.
R- Aye.
I've forgotten how many grooves there were in that fly wheel.
R- But they're a grand drive aren’t they.
Oh aye, rope drive. Anyway let's not start talking about engines. We'll leave that for another tape. We're nearly at the end here, we’ll sign off for to-night Fred.
R- Aye.
SCG/04 May 2003
7,107 words.