THIS TAPE HAS BEEN RECORDED ON THE 18th OF JULY 1978 AT EMMA JANE CLARK’S HOUSE ON MANCHESTER ROAD BARNOLDSWICK. THE INFORMANT IS EMMA JANE CLARK AND THE INTERVIEWER IS STANLEY GRAHAM.
Now, the next thing now is food. What did you usually have for your breakfast?
R- When?
During the week.
R- Now?
No, when you were at Forester’s Buildings,
R- Oh, well we always had porridge.
Always,
R- Always had porridge. And bread and syrup, something like that, you know?
Yes, you didn't have salt on your porridge?
R- Pardon?
You didn't have salt on your porridge, then.
R- No, we had milk on our porridge.
Oh, that’s it aye. Scotsmen you know, they just have salt on.
R- Yes. Well I put salt in my porridge when I’m making it.
That's it, yes.
R- Always, we always have done at home.
Yes, aye, and how about Sunday dinner?
R- Oh well, we always had a good Sunday dinner, we always had a roast. We had to have for the lot of us you know? And there was three or four of them working you see? I wouldn't say we were poor, not poverty, we always had enough to eat. We were, we didn’t get a lot of clothes but what we got we got good and they had to last and they’d be handed down from one to another.
That's it. And what did you usually have for your other dinners, during the week?
R- Well bread and jam and homemade parkins and things like that. You know, bread and jam and … Saturday we always had, my father always made tea on Saturday and we always had Palethorpes sausages and tomatoes, and he used to do them in front of the fire, you know with the old fashioned top bar and the sausages on a toasting fork and the tomatoes on a dish in front of the fire. On the top bar, and my father always made Saturday tea and that’s what we always had and it was a real treat, and they were Cambridge sausages and they were … Sausages today don’t taste like sausages to what they did.
No, you’re quite right, quite right. Did you usually have supper before you went to bed?
R- Oh not much supper, no. We’d have perhaps sometime, if my mother had made biscuits we’d get a biscuit, a few biscuits, and if we didn’t, well we’d have perhaps bread and jam or bread and syrup but we always had a bit of supper.
(100)
How about a drink, you'd drink tea.
R- Yes, we’d drink tea at bed time, yes.
How about coffee or cocoa?
R- Oh well we had cocoa more than coffee when we were young and then as we got older we had coffee.
What sort of coffee was it, can you remember?
R- Oh well it was ground coffee you know, ground coffee, what you used to brew in a jug. Not powdered, there was no powdered coffee in those days when we were young. You used to buy it loose, a quarter of coffee or half a pound of coffee and it was loose and it was good, it was good coffee.
Yes, nothing but proper coffee then were there? Did you have a garden or an allotment?
R- Oh no we hadn’t, we had a garden, we’d a big garden at Forester’s Buildings. When you go there's a gate if you notice that goes down the middle [opens off Skipton Road] , and then at this side we grew red currants up to the wall and then we’d two rows of gooseberry bushes and rhubarb on that side of the yard and then we had a cold frame but
(150)
we never had anything in it, we used to play in there when we were little. They used to put me in there to play in summer you know, we never grew anything in it. I can remember that as plain as anything and I can remember playing in it and I wouldn't be above two. Then we had flowers
(5 min)
in the other garden. And I know we had a big rose tree with white roses on, a right big rose tree, and it was white roses with a pink, like a pale pink centre. I can always remember that because my friend always used to came down. And one of my friends she had a bicycle, she was only about ten. Well that was, it was the only bicycle in Barlick! And she used to say “You can have a ride on my bicycle if you'll give me a few of your roses!” And oh, I'd have done anything for a ride on her bicycle! I’d have, I’d have given everything I had!
And that there, it’d be a scented rose that?
R- Pardon?
It’d have a nice scent that rose?
R- Oh they were lovely.
That’s something they have bred out of roses now isn’t it. The scent. They look nice but they don’t smell.
R- Oh they’d a beautiful scent.
No, they have no scent like the old ones. You’d still have the fruit that you grew in the gardens like the red currants and gooseberries? You’d eat them yourselves?
R- Oh they had to be used, yes. They had to be.
Pies?
R-Yes.
And did you have any hens or anything like that?
R- No.
How about pets?
R- Oh, my oldest brother always had a little dog. He was mad on dogs. He always had a dog until he got married and then he had an Alsatian when he got married.
What did he use the dogs for? Did he go ratting or rabbiting or anything?
R- No. He just liked a dog, he liked an animal, yes.
He just liked a dog. What kind of puddings did your mother make?
R- Oh rice puddings and steak and kidney puddings. That was a highlight of the week when we were [young], but something I could never eat. I could never eat steak pudding. The only thing I couldn't eat. I couldn't do with them and they used to love them and she’d always to make me something different. And even today I can’t do with the soft crust.
How much milk did your mother get a day?
R- Oh I don’t know. I can't remember. I was only, we were only young you know?
How was it delivered?
R- Oh the milkman used to come round with it in his milk float and they had those big, you know, you have seen them on farms. And then you used to go and take your jug out.
Aye. Big twelve gallon kits.
R- Oh we always got a quart a day at least.
And did your milkman just come once a day or did he come twice?
R- Morning and night. Morning and night. Yes.
Aye, yes that's right. Aye.
R- And it was Duxbury [Oliver. Grandfather to Harold Duxbury and father to William], he had a farm. You know where the Knoll is?
Yes.
R- Well, Wilfred Nutter lived there didn't he? He married the farmer’s daughter that had that farm just below, just before you turn the corner to go past the Knoll. There is a road up to the farm there. Well, if it's still there.
Aye, Crook Carr, aye.
R- Yes. Well that was the farmer.
Yes. Well the old farmhouse isn’t used now. It’s that new farmhouse on the side of the road now.
R- Yes it is, yes it is.
Because the roof fell in if you remember. And did you use to have butter?
R- Oh yes we always used to have butter.
Yes. Did you ever have margarine?
R- No, we never had margarine. I don’t know whether it was… you could buy margarine then, could you?
Well, during the first world war you could, but I don’t know about before.
R- Oh well, during the first world war we were grown up then. No, we always had butter.
Aye. How about dripping?
R- Yes I think we used to get dripping sometimes. Yes, we did, and we put salt on it.
That's it yes. And what sort of fruit do you think you had most often?
R- Oranges, and apples.
And what sort of vegetables?
R- Oh well, cabbages and peas mostly I think.
And, there's a list of foods here. There's some different foods. Just tell me if you ever had them you know, or if you had them every week or once a month or never. Anything like that. Bananas.
R- Oh well, we’d have bananas and we’d often have those for Sunday tea time after we’d had our, you know we used to have a bit of extra on Sundays and we’d have those after with custard on, cut up with custard on. And sometimes we’d have them for tea during the week, a banana cut up with custard on and bread and butter.
(10 min)
Now then, you just said something there, ‘and bread and butter with it’. Now when you had fruity at tea time, did you quite often have bread and butter with the fruit?
R- Oh yes. During the week especially. But sometimes at the weekend we’d have a bit of ham or something like that and if we’d have any meat left from dinner we’d get ham you know, we’d have it for tea. That were when there were four or five of them working you see?
That’s it.
R- I can't remember much when we were about two or three you know but you see there was some a lot older than me, were some of them you know? My step sisters they'd be 18 or 20 years older than me. You see?
Now, about rabbit? Did you ever have rabbit?
R- Oh yes, and my brother used to keep rabbits, but for pets. We had a shed in the back yard.
Aye, and did you ever eat any of those rabbits?
R - No.
Oh, I was just thinking that. Fried foods, did you have much stuff fried?
R- No I don't think so. No.
(350)
How about fish?
R- Yes, we’d have fishy occasionally. We’d have fish occasionally and that would be fried and sometimes it was done in the oven, done in the oven in milk you know?
When your mother got fish, where did she get it from?
R- Where was the fish shop? There was a fish shop in Barlick but I can’t, I’m just wondering where it was, in those days.
I'm just wondering whether anybody came round with fish with a cart.
R- Yes they did, yes they did, they used to come round, but there used to be a fish shop and it was Sam Yates on Church Street. Yes it was Sam Yates’s next to where Harry Tinner’s shop used to be, do you know? Harry Tinner’s, well it was next door.
And how about cheese?
R- Oh well, my father always liked cheese and we used to have, he used to have oatcake, you know that soft oatcake and you hung it on the clothes rack to dry, and he’d have that and cheese for his supper.
Did your mother make the oatcake?
R- No. They used to, a man used to come round selling it, and he made it himself.
Yes, Cow heel?
R- Yes, I remember them having cow heels.
Tripe?
R- Not often tripe. No, I can never remember having tripe at home.
Trotters and. black puddings?
R- Trotters and cow heels but I can never remember having tripe, no.
How about black puddings?
R- No.
(400)
Eggs?
R- Oh yes we always had eggs. I can remember when we always had eggs. We’d have an egg for our tea sometimes but that was a treat you know, if we had eggs for our tea. It was a treat if we had eggs for our tea when I was little.
Tomatoes?
R- Well you see, I can’t remember having tomatoes when I was right little. I can’t remember having tomatoes. I can’t remember seeing tomatoes when I was very little but when I was going to school I remember tomatoes then and we had them. We used to have them out with salt and vinegar on with our bread and butter.
(15 min)
Grapefruit?
R- No, we had no grapefruit when we were young.
How about sheep’s head?
R- No, I can’t ever remember having sheep’s head.
Did your mother ever buy tinned food?
R- Tinned fruit?
Well, tinned fruit or food of any sort you know, anything that was in tins.
R- Well, tinned salmon, we used to get tinned salmon. Yes, pears, tins of pears but you know they were always the large tins. There were no little tins came into our house, for a big family.
Can you ever remember any of the tinned food being bad?
R- No.
How about Christmas dinner? What did you have for Christmas dinner?
R- Well I don't remember having turkeys when we were young, but I remember having goose. I remember having goose, but I can't remember having turkey when we were young. Not till we got grown up. And then we’d have them, but I can remember having a goose at Christmas when we were young and sometimes pork. Christmas pudding, homemade you know, in a cloth.
(450)
Aye. Made three months before.
R- Yes.
Can you remember what was your favourite food when you were young? Was there anything that was a favourite ?
R- Well, I could eat anything, I enjoyed anything.
Except steak and kidney pudding!
R- Yes, that was the only thing, the only thing I can never eat.
It's funny is that.
R- And they all looked forward to it. My mother always used to make them on Wednesday, and she’d always to make me something different. I think sometime when I was young I must have been put off them or something you know? And I could never, ever eat one.
I think everybody is the same. I think everybody has something. I know our family all used to like junket, you know curds and whey. Oh and I couldn't eat it. I couldn't face it.
R- I never had any.
Oh no. You know rennet and milk you know. Oh I couldn't eat it, it’s like blancmange, when you cut it, the water runs out of it.
R- Yes. I think that's about the only thing I couldn't eat was beefsteak pudding and all the others used to look forward to that day.
Aye, that’s it. Did your father come home for all his meals?
R- No, they used to stop in, he used to stop in for his dinners when we were little but not after, not when we got bigger. Of course he died when he was 69 and he’d been, he’d been ill for a few years, not so well. So I should think he’d only be about 63 or 4 when he started being ill. He was a very quiet man was me father, very quiet, very musical and wouldn’t say a wrong word about anybody. No.
(500)
Did you over take his food into the mill for him when he …
R- When we were children we used to take his dinner into the mill, when we were little.
And what did you take in for him, can you remember?
R- Oh, I can’t remember. It used to be sandwiches or something. Beef sandwiches or ham sandwiches, something like that.
Did your father always have the same to eat as the rest of the family or did he have something special?
R- No, he had what we had. Yes.
That's it. Can you ever remember your mother going short to feed you?
R- No, I can never, never remember us going short of food. No.
And who usually did the shopping for the family?
R- Well, we all had to do, we all did it. You know, the older ones, and then as we grew we’d to do it.
How often did you go shopping?
R- Oh two or three times a week. Sometimes every day. You know, when there’s a big family of you?
Yes, well, of course in those days, what people forget nowadays is that in those days there were no such a thing as fridges.
R- No. Oh no. You had to get your stuff fresh every day, and it was only a village then was Barlick, you know?
That’s it.
R- There was nothing up here, do you remember? There was nothing past the Greyhound, nothing down Park Avenue. There was just those three houses, you know, on this side of Park Avenue at the top. Nothing else when we were young. I can remember all those houses being built.
(20 min)
Yes, we’ll get on to the building later because you have seen some building, you must have done. Where did your mother usually get her vegetables?
R- Well, Sam Wallace’s just in Newtown and the Co-op used to sell vegetables as well, we were, oh we were big co-oppers, me father were big co-op, we were big co-op shoppers.
(550)
Did your mother ever go shopping in the market?
R- We hadn’t a market. We’d no market when we young.
How about, and when I say you know, I mean there used to be a market down Butts at one time.
R- Oh well that was ... that was after I was married, its long after I was married.
Of course it would be because that market, there you are you see, because that market didn’t start down there until the cinema was burnt down, did it?
R- No, and then that used. to be a fair. The fairs used to come there, roundabouts and stalls and things like that, and they always used to come to those post office buildings. Do you know, where the post office is?
Yes.
R- Well, the fairs used to come there because when we lived at Forester’s Buildings we used to be looking out of the bedroom window at night and we could hear it, hear the music from it, you know?
That’s it yes. And your mother shopped at the co-op?
R- Yes.
And have you any idea why she shopped at the co-op?
R- Well, for the divi, the divi was very nice you know? It was paid half yearly I think wasn't it? You got, cheques you know. It was quite a n ice bit of money at the divi and I think that was one reason why.
That’s it. [The next question was whether there was any difference in prices between the corner shop and the town centre] Well, really this question doesn’t apply because there was only the town centre.
R- That’s all there was, only Church Street, Newtown and Rainhall Road, and there was nothings down Albert Road you know? There were all houses there, just the
post office and then there was Sneath’s shop after, and then Willan’s [Thomas Willan] the painter after that and then all the others there were houses and it was a field where the co-op buildings are. No Frank Street.
(600)
That’s it. When you say that your mother went to the co-op then, those buildings wouldn’t be built then. Where was the Co-op in Barlick before they built the new building?
R- There’s that down Manchester Road, and then, when they started building down Skipton Road, that was when we lived in Forester’s Buildings, I think those would be up just before Ribblesdale Terrace, and it was the corner shop where the carpet shop is now.
Yes, what's the carpet shop now. That’s right. [On the corner of Gisburn Road and Skipton Road katy corner to Gisburn Road School.]
R- Yes, that was a Co-op and then there was the Co-op building near Twenty Row. You know, you go down Station Road and then you go up, well, we used to call it Twenty Row [Wellhouse Street] I don’t know what the name is. Well, past the fire station and then there’s a row of houses, well you go behind there and then the Co-operative Buildings were there. [Co-operative Street]
R- You know where Jack Bennett’s the butcher’s shop is? [22 Wellhouse Road in 2003] The shop is downstairs from the road? Well, across there's an opening isn’t there. And you can come out on Rainhall Road. [Wellhouse Street]
That's right.
R- Well, after the first row of houses there’s a Co-operative building, there was a co-operative building there. [Co-operative Hall. 1900 and shops on the east end of the row]
Aye, I didn't know that.
Yes, that's its aye. Can you remember if the shops used to give credit apart from the co-op?
R- I don’t think so. I don't know, I can't remember. I mean we never got anything we couldn't pay for.
That’s right. Was there anything that you used to eat then you know, that you ate when you were young which you can’t get now?
(650)
R- Well there used to be quite a few dressmakers and there aren't many now are there?
That’s right, yes.
R- We always used to get our clothes made and the lady at the end of Forester’s Buildings, she was a good dressmaker and also her sister. You know Norman Bowker, of Windle and Bowker? Well, Aunt Sarah, who used to live at Forester’s Buildings, she was their aunt, she was Norman and Edith and his sister’s aunt. They spent all their holidays down there, and they liked to come to play with us because
there was a lot of children. Their mother was a dressmaker on Rainhall Road, the corner shop before you turn up to Church School.
Aye, it's a tailor’s shop now.
(25 min)
R- It's what?
A tailor’s shop now isn’t it? On Rainhall Road?
R- Yes, you know where? Before you turn…
The opposite corner to the chemist. [I have an idea I was wrong here, I think it was the cottage on the corner of York Street.]
R- Yes well, they lived at this side, as you turn round the corner to go up to Church School. Well they lived in that cottage and the shop. That was Norman Bowker’s mother was Aunt Sarah’s sister, [Elizabeth Bowker] and she was a good dressmaker. Aunt Sarah used to make our clothes when we were little. And Mrs Bowker and Miss Hargreaves, you remember Lizzie Hargreaves? Do you remember Harry Tinner’s shop? Well they used to live there did this sort that worked for Mrs Bowker and then they came to that high house in Montrose Terrace, the end house. Miss Hargreaves and her three sisters, they’re retired today, none of them were ever married.
Which is Montrose Terrace?
R- By the New Church, down Skipton Road, that high one.
That’s it, yes.
R- Well, I’ll tell you who lives there, the people from the wool shop in Frank Street live there.
Aye, Barbara….
R- Yes, I know.
Bowker, not Bowker, yes, yes.
R- Yes, well they live in that house where those three sisters of Harry Tinner’s come to live, when they sold the shop on Church Street and she left £28,000 did Lizzie Hargreaves.
It was a lot of money in them days.
R- Well I mean she’s been dead for about eight or nine years and she was the last of the three old maids. There were three sisters and they never got married.
How much housekeeping money do you think your mother would need to keep the house running. Do you know, do you have any idea?
R- Well my father was working, my two oldest sisters were working, my oldest brother and my eldest sister you know. I’m reckoning two step-sisters, you know me father’s two daughters before he married my mother. There was them and me father and me eldest brother and me eldest sister. Well, I should think they’d have about six or seven pounds when we were little. Because when I was born they’d all be working.
Yes and would they be tipping up? Or boarding?
R- They'd be tipping up perhaps till they got about twenty you know, and then they boarded.
Yes, that's it. Aye. So really in a way, once you'd reared, if you had a big family, once you got over the …
R- The children growing up, when the family started working.
Yes, it could be a good thing.
R- Well, you could be, you could, you were comfortable. Yes, you were comfortable.
That's right, yes.
R- I can never remember us being very poor. Because you see, there were four or five of them working.
That’s it, yes. It’s very interesting is that actually. Obviously, you’ll remember the first world war, you’d be nineteen when it started.
R- I was just nineteen and I was in Douglas.
On the Isle of Man?
R- I was at Douglas on me holidays and we came back and it was Bank Holiday weekend and war was declared on the Monday as we came back.
Well, I’ll ask you more about the first world war later. Just a couple of questions now about… Can you remember food being short during the first world war?
(30 min)
R- During the first world war, I remember it being short during the second, I was nineteen wasn’t I. Not really, not as bad as during the second world war I don’t think. Perhaps it didn’t last as long as the second world war did it?
No, that’s it. Can you remember queuing for food in the first world war?
R- No I can’t remember queuing for food.
Do you think there was any difference in the way the family fed during the first world war than before? Do you think you were better fed during the war than before? Or would you say there was no difference.
R- Between the first world war and the second do you mean?
No. Would you say there was any difference between the way you fed during the first world war than before the first world war.
R- Oh well, I should think not as good as we were before the war. I shouldn’t think so as far as I can remember. But you see, I was at that silly age, growing up when all you thought about was dancing and having a good time, boys!
That’s it, well we’ll get on to that! We’ll go now from food to the other essential, clothing. Did your mother ever make any of your clothes?
R- No I don’t think so.
How about knitting?
R- Oh she’d knit for all of us from being born I should think. She knit all our stockings till we’d been at school a few years. She was always knitting, she’s knit and crocheted all her life.
That’s knitting and crocheting. Did she ever do any tatting?
R- No.
Did she have a sewing machine?
R- Oh yes.
What sort?
R- A Singer. And my sister had it up to her dying about four years, three years since. A Singer sewing machine.
Aye. An it would still be a good machine.
R- It was still a good machine.
Aye. Did your mother mend your clothes for you?
(800)
R- Oh yes, yes.
Was she a good darner?
R- Yes, she was a good woman was my mother. Yes, she was. She thought a lot about all of us, she was a very sensible woman I should say.
A good mother.
R- Yes she was a good mother.
When your mother darned socks, did she do them with a mushroom? Can you remember?
R- Pardon? ... Yes, yes.
Was it a wooden mushroom?
R- Yes, and I still have one.
That’s it aye. Did you ever have any passed-on clothes?
R- Oh yes, when we were little, yes we did. I always remember my sister Olive next. younger to me, she talks about it yet, she says “I never forget going to school'” she says “Me pockets were nearly at the bottom of me frock! I felt right ashamed.” She says it were one of our Grace’s cast-off coats and she was about twenty years old. “It was a lovely coat, I’ll never forget going to school, the pockets were nearly at. the bottom!” She still talks about it.
You don’t forget these things, you don’t forget these things. And you have already told me that a lot of your clothes were made by…
R- Best clothes and then we had to wear hand-me-downs as well you know?
That’s it, yes
R- But if we got anything new we had it made.
Yes that's it. Now, what happened to your old clothes?
R- Well they were worn out we finished with them. They wouldn’t be worth giving away I don’t think when we’d finished with them.
So have you. any idea what did happen to them?
R- Well, I should think they'd be given to the rag man.
Yes, that's it. The rag and bone man.
R- Yes. Perhaps some of the good things were kept for patches, patching you know.
Yes. Andy if you gave, if you gave anything to the rag and bone man what would he give you back for them?
R- Oh, a scouring stone.
That’s it, donkey stone, that's it. Can you remember there being two sorts of donkey stone, hard and soft?
R- I can remember brown and white.
Yes, that's it. I'm not cure whether that’s what Ernie Roberts meant, he were talking about two different sorts, he said hard and softy and I wondered whether perhaps he meant brown and white do you know? [White was usually hard and brown or yellow was a softer stone.]
R- Well, there's, there was brown and white.
Yes, that's it. Yes I can remember you know. I can remember them myself. I can remember going for them myself, Can you ever remember anybody in Barlick, not necessarily at Forester’s Buildings because there wasn’t a causeway there, but not only doing the doorstep but the kerb edge as well? Have you ever seen it?
R- No, not the kerb edge.
(35 min)
Aye, I have seen it done, but I think it's only like on back streets in towns you know. They do say you know, that in Dukinfield there used to be one street where they used to blacklead the tramlines.
R- I have never heard that before.
I have heard that many a time you know. I don’t know whether it's true. I can imagine it.
R- Yes.
Blackleading the tram lines! Anyway we’d better not get on to that. When you went to school what did you wear for school?
R- Well, when we were little we wore pinafores you know, on the top of our dresses. And I remember when we went to school at first we had home knit socks up to there, not long stockings.
No. Up to below your knee?
R- Yes, and then home knitted ones.
And did you wear shoes or clogs?
R- Oh clogs, yes.
Irons?
R- Clogs with irons on, yes. I always had mine with brass nails. They used to have brass toe plates. But Mrs Edith, Norman Bowker I have been telling you about and his sister. Well their father [Binns Bowker, 32 Church Street in 1896 and York Street in 1902, Barrett’s Directory] , there is a little antique shop now isn't there, just round the corner where they used to live.
That’s right.
R- Well, he had a little, the father had a clogger’s shop, and Edith always had little brass nails round her clogs and everybody else had brass toe plates, and I said yes, I says “The next pair of clogs I get I’m having brass nails round, I'm not going to be common like everybody else!” And I always had nails round mine after.
And when you went to school those clogs would have to be polished.
R- Oh yes, black polish, yes.
And who polished them?
R- Me myself. And I used to, when I was about fifteen, every Monday night I used to clean all the shoes in the house and in the summer I took them in the back yard to do them. Me mother says “Out you go in the back yard to do them!” I hadn't been told to do them, I hadn't been told to do but you know some of them wouldn’t bother to clean the shoes, some of the younger ones, and every Monday night I used to clean all the weekend shoes.
(900)
It's a very satisfying thing, cleaning boots. I like cleaning boots I do.
R- Yes I did. I used to clean all the shoes and I used to polish them with a piece of velvet.
That’s it. I cleaned mine the other day. Many a time I’ll go and get me boots and get out and clean them. And I always have brown boots, I like a good pair of boots you know. And I cleaned all me brown boots, and I have about four or five pairs and. I said to Vera, “Look at them, they look just like a row of conkers!”
R- Well I have spilt some fat on mine, look.
Aye, it'll soak away.
R- Will it?
Oh aye.
R- I washed it and washed it. Janet brought me some sausage up this morning and I said to Vera [Vera Graham, my wife used to clean for Mrs Clark and Janet, my daughter, did shopping for her.] “I have one slice of bread in the house. That’s all I have, and I’ve no meat, only what I have in tins. I’ll tell you something, you know Jessie, my younger sister? She’s getting very forgetful, she is. She is bursting with health and energy but she is getting very forgetful. So on Friday night I rang her up, because I meet her every Sunday, she either comes up here or I go down there for tea. Well I was going down on Sunday so I said to Jessie, “Will you get me some ham from the delicatessen shop just above.” They cook it themselves on the bone and it’s really delicious. And she said “Yes, I’ll get you some.” And I said “And a brown loaf from the shop next door but one I think it is. And then it’ll do for next week like because the shops are going to be closed.” [It was the annual holidays and most shops closed all week the first week.] So I went down for tea on Sunday and I said “Before I forget I’ll pay you for me ham and brown bread.” She said “I’ll get it out.” Well, she went in and no brown bread in the bread pot so I says “I’ll get me ham out of the fridge.” Well, there was no ham and there was about half a loaf of brown bread. She said “Oh well, I’m sure I got them.” So, she always makes her tea ready and laid on the kitchen table and covered up so I lifted the cloth up and there was two plates covered with ham and I says “Well, this looks like ham. Is this the ham you got for me?” She says “Oh, it must be.” So I says “What about me loaf? You rang me up and told me you’d got them on Friday afternoon. You rang up and told me you’d got some ham and a brown loaf.” Well she’d only so much bread so she said “Well, just leave me a couple of slices and I’ll get some in the morning.” She forgot you know, it went clean out of her mind. It’s sad you know, it’s very sad you know.. I mean, to be losing your memory, she’s only 77. She rings up every Sunday and I ring her up on Saturday. I’ll say “Now it’s my turn to come down Jessie, or it’s your turn to come up.” She rings every Sunday morning to ask who’s turn it is to come. She can’t remember, it’s very sad you know.
Oh it’s better than being, having bad health.
R- Oh but it’s not, it's not so nice, when you think you know. She was paying the rates twice two years since. She'd paid them you know. So after she paid them, she went up again to pay them you know. Well, it makes you a bit worried, you know? Doesn’t it?
Well, aye, yes. Anyway, did you wear a hat?
R- Oh yes, we all wore hats when we were young.
What sort?
R- Eh I don’t know. I remember getting a Merry Widow hat when I was about fifteen.
What's a Merry Widow?
R- Wide ones, like this you know.
Yes, with a wide brim.
R- Wide this way but not wide that. They were something new and they called them Merry Widow hats. They weren’t like big round ones, they were oval.
Oh, I see what you mean.
R- They were oval, long this way and not that. We thought we were somebody in a Merry Widow hat.
When you were going to school what age were you when you first went to school?
R- Well, I’d be about four I think.
Can you remember what length your skirts were then, when you first went to school. at four years old. How long were your skirts.
(1000)
R- Oh they'd be down to there I should think.
Half way down, half way down. Below your knees.
R- Well, they'd be well below your knees yes.
Yes, that’s it.
R- Oh till, we never used to wear short dresses up to our knee. Because we used to wear knickers, bloomers we called them, with band round, you know, buttons on below the knees when we were young women.
Yes, that's it, yes.
R- Oh yes. and our skirt down to there about.
Yes, about half way down your lower leg.
R- Oh you never showed your knees.
That’s it, yes. Now, can you remember, when you were very young, were there a lot of people still wore what I call a full skirt. A skirt down to the floor?
R- I remember my sister wearing them. Oh yes, right to the floor and when they went out they used to hold the dresses, you know, the skirt, up like this to keep them from [dragging on the ground] if it was dusty or anything. They were long, they were right down to the shoe top, down to their ankles.
That’s it, yes. And, would you say then that it was usual for the, you know, the older women to wear long skirts?
R- Oh yes, everybody, all people, from about eighteen I should think.
Yes, how about the shawl?
R- Oh yes, they used to wear shawls when they went to the mill. I never wore a shawl but I can remember my older sister wearing one.
Would you say that wearing a shawl was almost a badge of the worker? If you wore a shawl were you automatically classed as somebody that was working?
R- Yes.
So in other words, beyond a certain social level people would never think to wear the shawl.
R- No.
Yes, that’s it.
R- And if they did, it would be a fancy one.
Yes, that’s it, an evening… Yes something like that.
R- Yes, a knitted one, you know? My mother used to crochet them you know? And they'd sit in the house with them on.
(1050)
Yes that's it. If somebody was wearing a shawl for work, what would it be generally made of, would it be…
R- Wool, wool.
Yes, knitted or woven?
R- Woven. A fine cloth like, a fine cloth with a fringe on.
Yes, that’s it, yes. Those were the shawls I always remember but I was just wondering whether anybody wore knitted shawls.
R- No, not for work, not for mill girls. Mill people didn’t. I mean, if you had a knitted shawl it was usually to wear in the house when you were dressed up you know. My mother used to crochet them with fringes.
(1050)
If your mother was dressed up, did she wear shoes or boots?
R- Oh they used to wear boots when I was little. And then they got to loose shoes you see.
Yes, because those boots would be buttoned?
R- Yes, buttoned boots. Yes, and I can remember when rinking boots came in, rinking, when roller skating came in. And they used to be, oh, some beautiful boots. My friend, she had some of the most beautiful brown leather shoes, I used to envy her of it. And we saw these shoes in a shop window and she used to get, she was an only child and she got beautiful clothes and my goodness, she got these beautiful boots and they were laced up top about there and then there were studs like. Do you remember them?
Yes, I’ve seen them yes.
R- Man’s boots, do you remember men’s boots? And they’d come about to there, beautiful soft leather, lovely. I can see them now, we’d only be about sixteen or seventeen.
Half way to the knees.
R- Yes, it’d be about up to there. Beautiful.
How much would a pair of boots like that cost then? Can you think? Have you any idea?
R- Oh they’d be…… [Tape ends}
SCG/13 January 2003
6987 words.