THIS TAPE HAS BEEN RECORDED ON THE 4th of AUGUST 1978 AT MRS CLARK’S HOME ON MANCHESTER ROAD. THE INFORMANT IS EMMA JANE CLARK AND THE INTERVIEWER IS STANLEY GRAHAM.
R- I’m sorry if I’m wasting all your time.
No you are not wasting nowt. You mustn’t keep saying that because you are not.
R - Aren't I ? No?
No, I wouldn't be here if you were wasting my time, you should know that. No. Now, so the war’s over and Billy got demobbed. He is back, and you being a bit stubborn, you're being a bit stubborn and you’re still in the mill and this is 1918. And of course you and Billy then would be courting wouldn't you?
R - Yes, we courted till 1920, we were married in 1920, November.
Yes. Now when did you get engaged?
R - Oh the first time he came home on leave. The first Christmas he came home on leave.
So you were engaged from, that’d be, was it Christmas 1916? Was it before you had the flu?
R – Yes, it was before I had the flu.
Flu was 1917 so that’d be Christmas 1916. So you were engaged for four years?
R - Yes, before I was married.
Yes, that’s what I meant, you had four years engagement.
R- I’d be 21 when I was engaged and I was married when I was 25.
Yes. Now would you say that was about an average age for getting married, 25?
(50)
R - Yes somewhere about. You see the war stopped, we’d probably have been married before if the War hadn’t come, perhaps a year or two before. You see he was only at home two years before we were married, we had to save up and ….
That’s it. Well that’s the interesting thing you see, now so when you came, when Billy actually came back after the war, was there a reason, you’ve just mentioned one, but I want you to tell me about the reasons you see. So there’d be a reason why you didn't get married straight away when Billy came back from the war.
R- Well, we had to save up you see. He went and his brother, [to the war] and his father… I’ve told you all that before about his father taking, he’d retired you know, and George was on the Royal Exchange …
Yes, well tell me again, it's right, you know it’s…
R - Well you see, Billy’s father was a cloth agent on the Royal Exchange at Manchester and George was with him ‘cause he was married was George you see. And then he was, when he got George into the business, well Mr Clark retired and he said “Now, when you get settled into it you take Billy in.” Of course the war came you see and Billy didn’t go into, on the Royal Exchange because the war came and George had to go and Billy had to go and Mr Clark went back and kept the business going. Now when the war was over and George came back his father says “Now, well you take Billy in now and pay him a wage.” And that’s what he did when he came home from the war.
(100)
So both of them went in together.
R- On the Royal Exchange yes. And George paid Billy a good wage. Well it was five pounds which was a good wage then, it was about double what a weaver would get you know? More than double. And so we saved up and we got married and we fastened the house. I said to Billy “I’m going out to work you know.” And he said “You’re not.” I says “Oh yes I am Billy, I’m going out to work till we have paid the house off.” “Well I shan’t agree unless you get off your work to do your work at home.” I says – “I mean to do that, I am not going to work at night!” And he says “All right, if you want to do it.” Which I did.
(150)
And which house was that Mrs Clark?
R - Top house in Ash Grove. By, the church, you know?
Yes. That’s it, yes.
R - And I think we paid £300 for it. I think It was £300 and I paid, we’d pay, and I put my wage in every week and we lived off, you know, what Billy had. And then as soon as we paid it off I finished. Oh and I were happy when I finished working.
(5 Min)
You would be, you would be, yes. Now in those days, how easy was it to.. Well I mean nowadays you hear people say that it can be difficult getting a loan off a building society, you know to buy a house. I assume that you bought it through a building society? Yes. Andy nowadays, unless you’ve got a certain income they won’t take you on will they. You know, they won’t take you on. Were there any difficulties in those days?
R - Well I should think there would be but you see we had, we were in a good position you see? Billy had a good job and I was working and likely for being so.
Yes. Which building society was it? Was it local?
R – Skipton.
Skipton? That was the one? Was that the only building society in Barlick? Skipton?
R -I don’t, I think it would be. I can’t remember any other.
(200)
And did they, have an agent or was it a solicitor that ran it for them or did they have an office?
R - They had an office in Ellis Street. You know where Ellis Street is? Up to the Wesleyan School.
That’s right, yes.
R –Yes. Well, the bottom house there, and it was there then.
That’s right. And so you stayed at work until you’d paid for the house. Now tell me about Billy’s job, what exactly did a cloth agent do, what was the business?
R - A cloth agent, he has to go to somebody who wants the cloth. You see, they’re buying the cloth. Now the agent goes round to the manufacturer and gets the cheapest price he can. And then he goes to the buyer and says “Well, I can get so much.” You know. And of course he takes the lowest price if he can rely on the manufacturer and then they get so much a piece commission on every piece that’s sold.
That's it. Yes.
R - Now George had a very good connection ‘cause he was with Sassoon’s of India. Have you heard of them?
No.
R - Sir Philip, Sir Philip Sassoon and Sir Rupert Sassoon. They were big manufacturers in India, cotton manufacturers. Well you see George, when he booked cloth, he’d book thousands at once whereas an ordinary man, an ordinary manufacturer he’d perhaps book a hundred or two hundred pieces. But George’s were always in thousands. He had a marvellous business.
So Sassoon’s, they were weaving in India weren’t they?
R - They were weaving, they had mills in India.
{It all got a bit confusing here but the gist of what Emma was saying was that the agent got the cheapest cloth he could and sold it to his customers. In George’s case, a lot was cheap imports from Sassoon’s mills in India.]
R - But they were big cotton manufacturers in India.
Yes, that’s it, aye.
R - They were very wealthy.
Yes well a lot of people don’t realise how many British Firms and British Managers as well were weaving in India even then.
(10 min)
R- Yes, my Billy’s brother, he was out in India. He was engaged to a girl and her uncle and aunt were out in India and they got Arthur out in India as well. And they were working for Sassoon’s as well. But that didn’t make any difference to George’s business. I mean, they weren’t his relatives that were out there, it were only Billy’s step brother who was engaged to the daughter.
(300)
And so the cloth agent, really would be doing the same job that the Manchester men did that went from the mills.
R - Well the agents went round the manufacturers and asked how much they’d weave this cloth for, they knew, they gave them all the particulars of the yarn and length and everything, and then they’d go to the one who’d do it the cheapest you see?
Yes, that’s it. but they wouldn’t ever buy, for instance Billy, would Billy ever buy weft for somebody.
R- No. They just got commission on the cloth that was woven.
That’s it, yes. Because the Manchester man from the mills …
R - They went to get the orders. Well a cloth agent’s there to give them the orders you see. To give them the prices.
That’s right. And so Billy would go each morning from Barnoldswick?
R – Yes, on the train.
What time. What time was the train he caught?
R - I think they went at eight o’clock, eight or nine. No, perhaps nine. And I think the Royal Exchange opened at ten and they used to get home at half past five.
Yes. And did they, all the time that he was at the Exchange did he always go from Barnoldswick Station?
(350)
R – yes, always.
No, the reason I asked that is because I know that in later times I have heard people say that they some of the Manchester men didn’t like the idea of changing at Earby. So they used to go by car to Colne and get the train from there. And I know I have heard that, you know that actually they said that this was wrong because it meant that the Barlick branch line, which they all depended on, lost their trade in the mornings. And so Billy’d go in five days a week to Manchester. So he’d know Manchester well.
R – Yes, and then when the slump came of course George couldn’t afford to keep him going.
When do you reckon that the slump started?
R - Well it started soon after we were married. Soon after we were married, about 1921. And that’s when the slump came. And George, although he’d a lot of money, he spent it you know. He was a spender was George and so was his wife. You see, his wife, they’d always had plenty of money, Bradleys manufacturers, they didn’t know what it was to want anything. And George was a spender. Well Billy wasn’t Billy was steady. He was. But George were ‘Hail fellow and well met’ you know, and a spender. So he couldn’t afford to keep [Billy on] So by Easter, George couldn’t afford to keep Billy on so he had to look for something else.
Aye. And was that decline in the trade that started then, was that the time that Bradleys that were weaving at Bankfield, was that the time that they got into trouble? That was later?
R - Oh no, it was after that. It was after that.
Yes. Now that doesn’t matter, I was just wondering whether it was the same time.
R - Now Kit [Kit is short for Christopher and I think this is the evidence that the Bradley Brother who fell out with the other two, Arthur and Watson, was Christopher Edwin], you know, were George’s father in law. Well there were three brothers in that, in Bradley Brothers there were three brothers. Two of them had the main shares and then there was the younger brother, he lived in Skipton Road. Well, he hadn’t as much money in, he had part in but not like the other two. They didn’t know what to do with the money they'd that much. They'd everything and I used to think it was heaven on earth up at Bradley’s.
And that was all out of cotton.
R - All out of cotton. And when the war came, one of them had to go and it was Kit’s it was Ella’s [son], it was George’s brother in law that had to go [Eddie Bradley] And his father fell out with the other two brothers and got paid out. So he come off best o£ all [when Bradley Brothers banked]
Yes, you’ve told me about that.
R - And the other two they went bankrupt and they’d nothing, not a penny.
And when would that be about? Just roughly.
(15 min)
R - We were married in 1920, I can't remember.
It’s all right, don’t bother. Don’t let it worry you, it’ll come back to you.
R – I’m just trying to think, ‘cause George’s wife died when she was 52. I always think she died of a broken heart.
No, it doesn’t matter, don’t let it worry you. What did Billy do then, Billy has got to look for something else now.
(450)
R – Well, I’ll tell you what Billy did. George says why don't you go up into the Lakes and take some cloth with you? You know pieces of cloth. And we had a beautiful oak gramophone and he traded that for a motorbike and he went up in the Lake District with three whole pieces of cloth on. And he sold them all at the first three houses. ‘Cause we had some friends up there and he [George] says “Go to Martindale’s, and, and see what they say.” And Mrs Martindale says “Just what they want up here!” Because you see there were no cars in them days, very few cars you know. Well we used to go, they never used to see anybody only the grocer from Barrow in Furness which was 20 miles away. And people just round about.
Those three pieces of cloth he took, were they grey cloth or finished cloth?
R - Grey cloth.
Gray, cloth, straight out of the mill.
R - Sheeting cloth from Albert Hartley’s.
Aye. What width would that be then Mrs Clark?
Oh, it’d be full width, sheeting width. And he sold them straight away and so he decided to buy a car, and we bought a Ford, a new Ford car on hire purchase. And he used to go up once a month.
Can you remember how much the car was then?
R - I think it was about, just over a hundred pounds. And we’d paid for it in a year you see? And so he bought this car and he went up for a week every month to stay with the Martindales, and they were great friends, they introduced him to people they know and he got a real good round. And then he used to go round the Dales at other times and he got to selling all sorts of things you know, drapery and all that kind of thing. And oh we did that I should think. It put us on our feet and then buses started running. He says “My trade’ll go down here. I’m going to get rid of this lot.” And he went up to Malham, took up everything he had and advertised it and sold everything in a day. And he said “We'll look for a business now.” We went to Southport, we went to Liverpool and Dorothy was a baby and then he went up to Barrow. I didn’t go to Barrow, it was too far to take Dorothy, she was only, she'd perhaps be nine months or something like that. And then George came one day. You see George weren’t making anything you know? You see there was nothing doing, and he said “There’s a lorry and work for sale at Bankfield.” This was Nutter’s originally but they only had 400 looms and it was Maurice Dewhurst. You know Maurice? Up at Springs? Maurice, he was the Secretary and Mr oh…who was it? He came from Bentham. Did you know Annie Fairbanks? Oh well, it was this man from Bentham and they had it. And the lorry was for sale, and the work with it.
And they’d been carting for the manufacturers at Bankfield had they?
(20 min)
R – No. This was their own money, this was their own lorry. And they were just carrying their own cloth.
Oh, who was this, was this Nutter’s?
R- This was a firm and they were there after Nutter left Bankfield. And they hadn’t many looms you see. They hadn’t enough work for this lorry which was a big Leyland, a good lorry, and the garage was at the bottom of Crow Nest Road. You know, going on to the playing field.
Yes, I know what you mean yes.
R - And it was £600 was this. Now I’m telling you this, I don’t want anybody else to know – It’s not on there is it?
(550)
No. No, it’s on but I mean, it’s going into the [archive], nobody’ll know about this for a hundred years.
R - And so we paid for the, for the lorry £400 and George says “Get it Billy, I’ll drive it for you. But we’ll have to look for some more work. There isn’t enough work to keep one lorry going.” Because it was a big Leyland but it was a good lorry, it wasn't very old, about two years. And so we said we couldn’t pay for the garage [right away] but we’d pay for it in a year. So they gave us a year to pay for it. And we did but you see we had to look, they had to look for more work. Billy, we often laughed about it, Billy says the first day we went out we came back with one skip on! That’s how we started at haulage and we got to five lorries eventually. And you see, they were well known, and we got some very good firms, we got all Bankfield. We got all Fernbank, there were Ellison’s, Cairns and Lang, Mannock Gill and Hartley Edmondson’s. We got all that for…
They ware all at Fernbank.
R - They were all at Fernbank.
What year would this be about Mrs Clark?
R - Well it would be, we were married in 1920. Billy were on the Royal Exchange for only about four or five months and then he was going round [with cloth] four or five years, about 1926 I should say. 1926 or 1927.
1926, that's it aye. And things wouldn’t be good then, not by a long chalk.
(600)
R - Oh no, cotton wasn’t good. And we paid for it and then trade came better you see. ‘Cause we got, we did all Clough Mill, you know we did all Slater’s at Clough Mill ‘cause they knew Billy and George you see? And that helped a lot.
Aye well, somebody you can rely on.
R - And then Albert Hartley, all Albert Hartley’s which is Haighton’s now but it wasn’t as big a firm then you know? [1952 M/c Exchange Directory. Two firms are mentioned as being in Crow Nest Mill: Albert Hartley Ltd and M Horsfield and Son Ltd. They have the same representatives on the ‘Change and so were the same firm. The reps were F I Haighton and T Hall.] So we did all the work, we brought the yarn in and took the cloth out. Of all these firms we did everything they had. And then we had Horsfield’s, we’d Windle’s which was at, we called it New Mill, Wellhouse Mill, yes.
Wellhouse. But Horsfields were at Wellhouse as well weren't they?
R – Maurice Horsfield yes. Robinson Brooks, we did all their work, that was at Westfield Mill.
Aye, Robinson Brooks yes.
R – Yes, they did all their work, in and out, all the yarn and all the cloth. And we did part for Widdups and we did part for Bancroft, Nutters. And we had one or two more.
Andy was there … sorry.
R- It’s all right, I’m trying to think of who else we had. Anyway, we got to five lorries eventually.
Yes. Was there anybody else in Barnoldswick doing the same thing then?
R - Oh Wild Brothers, yes Wild Brothers. They started before we did.
Yes, now tell me, where did Wild Brothers start?
R - Cobden Street and it were Wild and Hyde when it started, there were two of them.
Yes. Tell me something, over near Bancroft, in between Bancroft and Gillian's cottages, in that field, there is a concrete flat and there’s a petrol tank underneath there. An old petrol tank, and somebody once told me that Wilds first started over there and whether that’s right or not I don’t know. [This was right, see Jack Platt evidence]
R - Oh well they might have done. All I can remember is them being down here.
Yes well, of course. I mean, you know I’m only interested in what you know. What you know. I was just wondering whether you could ever remember a garage across there.
R – No. I can’t, no.
It doesn’t matter. But it is still there, there is still a little old petrol tank underneath in the well.
(650)
R – Yes. Because we lived in Ash Grove when, you know when we started in the haulage business.
In the haulage business, yes.
R – Yes, we didn't come… Well we've just been up here [at Highlands] 45 years. Shirley was seven months old when we came up here. Well, Dorothy was born while Billy was going up in the Lake District because I remember taking her up, we used to go with him you know and stop a week with him at Martindale’s. Oh and they used to love us to go and the daughter lives in Skipton now. They are both dead Mr & Mrs Martindale but the daughter is in Skipton. She comes, they come over quite a lot and she told Dorothy, she says “You know Dorothy, I could do anything for aunty Emma and uncle Billy, they were the highlight of our life when we were children.” Because there were nobody ever went you know, only just neighbours and that. They were half a mile from the nearest bus station when the buses started running. And five miles from Haverthwaite Station.
That’s it, yes. And how long did they go on with the haulage business?
R - Oh till he retired, till he was sixty, well he was 63 when he started being ill and he went to a specialist and he was Mr ?, I forget, at Keighley. He was a nice man, oh he was a nice man. And he says “Well, you know, your heart isn’t good Mr Clark. Can you take things easier?” Billy says “Well yes I could. I could just go down, I’m a haulage contractor. I could just go down and see the men off in the morning.” He says “Well, do that and rest all afternoon.” Well he did that and he was 63 and it was about May, April, and he says “Come again in six months and he went again in six months and he says “Well you’re not any worse Mr Clark but keep on doing it. When will you be 65?” Billy said “I shall be 65 in June.”
(700)
What year was that Mrs Clark?
R- 65 in June. Well, he’d have been, how old would he have been? He’d have been eighty… he would have been eighty five this year so it's twenty years since.
(30 min)
Well that’s twenty years ago. 1958.
R - And Kenneth Nutter, you know Kenneth Nutter who was with Gotts, you know, Gott’s Garage now. Well, he was Rupert Nutter’s son was Kenneth Nutter.
I didn't know that, aye.
R- Yes, Kenneth Nutter, and we were very friendly with Rupert and his wife, we had played Bridge with them every Saturday night for years. We would go up to the house one week and down here the next and after his father died he came to Billy and he said “What do you do to get a licence for haulage?” Billy thought it was a bit cheeky of him when we were in haulage. And he says “Oh you can’t get a licence, not unless you can prove you have the work for it” Which you couldn’t. I mean it wasn't like it was when we started. Of course we had the work when we got on but you couldn’t get a licence to start a business unless you had the work for it.
That’s it.
R - So he says I’m going let the cotton go. And he let his cotton go.
This is Billy?
R – Billy, he let the cotton go, he sold part of it, he sold part of his cotton and he did part for Rolls Royce and he did part for a firm at Gargrave and he said I'm going to let me cotton go. And so he sold the cotton, he didn't get a lot for it because you see there wasn’t, trade wasn’t good then, you know. So Kenneth Nutter came. So he says “I’ll ring Kenneth up and tell him that I’m going to sell my business, and [see] if he is interested. He came to see me about it.” And so he rang him up and Kenneth says “I’m very interested, I’ll come up and we’ll have a talk. have a talk.” And he decided there and then he’d have it. And he got it very reasonably. Billy Says “You know you’ll have to look for some more work Kenneth. You’ll have to look for some more work. It isn’t the business that it used to be.” And he had a brother who was a, he had a very good job with Rolls Royce up in Scotland and we had done part work for Rolls Royce up at East Kilbride.
(750)
That’s it. what did, what name did that business go under when Billy had it?
R - W A Clark.
Yes. Did they change the name when they got it?
R- Oh yes they would. What did they change it to?
Stockbeck?
R- Yes, Stockbeck. Well you know, when they got it, our lorry were in quite good condition and he wasn’t [open with us] he never told us that Colin Alderton was in with him. Never told us, we didn't know, he just talked as though it was his. We had
(35 min)
no idea till quite a bit after that.
That’s it. It’s funny is this you know because now you are talking you know. Because of course you know I was on long distance lorries for years. Now you are talking about something that I know something about as well. Those two, they just ruined that business.
R - They spent thousands of pounds on new… but instead of looking, getting some work and looking for work they spent the money on the lorries, buying new lorries and spending money down at the garage and putting the toilet in. Billy never had a toilet you know, he used to go into the mill to the toilet, because he used to carry for you know Albert Hartleys. And they spent money hand over fist and it was all Colin Alderton’s money. ‘Cause his father’s wife told me after, ‘cause you know she was Robinson Brooks’s daughter was Colin Alderton’s father’s second wife. She knew what our business was like because we’d done all their work from starting. And she said to me, “You know Colin trusted Kenneth, he believed everything he said.” I says “Well, we made that business pay.” She says “We know you did but it was Kenneth and Colin trusted him.” And he was a right rotter was Kenneth you know? You know what he did? Ran away you know with Bill Bailey’s daughter.
Aye. And then they got mixed up with racing cars and all didn’t they.
E - Oh yes, And he was a right rotter and his other brother, Jack Nutter, he was just the opposite, oh he was a grand fellow.
(800)
And Billy said… Do you know what Billy said to me? He said “If he can get in with his brother and get work, they'd be made up in ten years. They aren't like me, I have had to pay for all my repairs and things. Theirs will get done at a quarter price and if they can only look after that business right they'd be made up in ten years. [Because Colin had the garage] Because they had everything, the petrol and - of course we had a petrol pump but they’d get it cheaper than we got it.
Well funnily enough not necessarily.
R – Well, when they sell it.
No, it's a funny thing is that you know. I mean… I'll tell you something now. Tyres, lubricating oil and fuel, it was always the same, there was what they called, Billy would have known about it, there was what they called ‘fleet rate’. And if you could get on fleet rate it was always an accepted thing up to about 10 years ago that a haulage contractor that was on fleet rate could buy his diesel and his oil and his tyres cheaper than a garage could buy them wholesale. It was a funny thing that.
E - Oh no, I don’t think so. We couldn’t, Billy had to pay for his tyres, he’d get a commission on them…
Yes but you could get a very good discount because I mean, you know, we used to get it in 1958. We were getting it then you know. I mean it was amazing the discounts we used to get. And I know the garages at one time, they raised Cain over this job because, especially lubricating oil, we could buy oil cheaper than a garage could buy it you know, we could get it, I think that’s still right because…
R - Had you a pump for it?
No, you know, lubricating oil because…
R - We had a petrol pump*
Yes, that’s it. But it’s funny is that you know because I never know where Stockbeck suddenly appeared from. And it was always a bit of a mystery. And, at that time I was running into Glasgow regularly. And I was also going into East Kilbride regularly.
(40 min)
R - Oh yes. Well we ..
And I got to know a bit about this haulage firm and I knew enough about them to know that they ware wronguns, they were running wrong.
R - Yes yes. Oh they lost a lot of money did Colin Alderton.
Aye, it’s a pity I didn’t know Billy then. Because I could have told him a thing or two about what was going on up there. I’ll tell you there was all sorts going on with that firm. Because at that time I was doing a lot of work for clearing house In Glasgow. I was doing a lot of work for Sterne’s the refrigeration people. Do you know Sterne’s refrigerators? And I was doing a lot of work for them and that was all out of East Kilbride where the Rolls Royce place is. And it was largely due to the bad service that Stockbeck gave Rolls Royce that they started to carry all their own engines.
(850)
R - Oh yes. Before Billy finished he had a contract for three months for carrying engines from East Kilbride to Barlick. And it lasted three years it lasted three years and at the end of that time that was when we sold our business. And Billy said “Now, if you’ll only look after things.” And he had a brother who had a very good job with Rolls Royce, he says “Now if you can get Jack.” But you see they must not have been able to do it. [It must have been Jack Nutter who had the job with Rolls Royce, Kenneth’s brother.]
No. They could have had all that work if they had used their heads, you know? Anyway, that’s Stockbeck. Well, that’s interesting is that because it was always a mystery to me, that firm was always a mystery.
R - Eh I remember Kenneth coming up here and talking as though it were all his money, not a mention of Colin Alderton.
Yes, and Colin ... No. Colin used to live up at Marton then you know? And we were running out of Marton. Because Colin was living at Marton next to David Peacock’s house. And, aye, well that’s, in fact I used to pass the time of day many a time with Colin. But anyway, so that meant that, Billy was carrying for the manufacturers in Barnoldswick from 1926 until 1958 so really he’d be carrying for them right down the decline, he’d see it happening all the way.
R – Yes.
And did he ever say anything about the way things were going in the cotton industry? You know, did he ever…
R - Oh we knew how, how cotton was going. We should have had to give up before then if we hadn’t had Rolls Royce. We kept doing part, we had no contracts only this last contract we had which was for three months. And it lasted three years. Or else we should have given up before then I think.
The thing that interests me is, did Billy ever express any opinions about what was happening in the cotton industry? You know, did he ever, did he have any opinions about what was causing the decline?
(900)
(45 min)
R - Well, it was foreign competition, cheap competition you know? That was what it was. Foreign competition, Japan and India you know? We’d gone out to teach them you know and then they took our trade.
Yes, you see one of the things that a lot of people don't realise is that Japan actually overtook us in textile exports before the first world war. And some people have put the date when the decline started at 1914 when the first world war started and that was when the exports to India started to drop off. The peak years for exports to India which was the main market started to drop off in 1914, And so…
R – Yes. I suppose it would because you see George had a marvellous connection with…
yes well there you are, with Sassoon’s yes.
R - Sassoon’s yes.
And, it was the Japanese started to step in in India and that was what did it.
P - Yes, are you cold Stanley? Are you cold?
It’s not all that warm now the sun's gone.
R - No it isn’t because you see I'm sat in the sun.
No you are right.
R - And you haven’t you know, I have a woollen, I have a woollen…
Oh I’ve got me good cotton shirt on.
R - Oh have you?
Aye, woven in Lancashire, it says so at the back of it. And these shirts are a case in point, it was a manufacturer who had these shirts made up about 20 years since. And for some reason he never sold them. And a friend of mine that dresses windows, a young lady who dresses shop windows in Burnley happened to know this fellow, and he was selling these shirts at two pound each
R- Oh well.
And, you know, collar attached.
R – Yes, they'd be good ones.
Oh they’re beautiful cotton.
R- I mean cotton's a terrible price now.
I'll tell you something else and all, the shirt lap goes down the backs of your legs!
R - Not them little short ones.
Not nowadays, not nowadays. Ernie Roberts once said something to me, he said that he remembers a chap saying in about 1930 when things were bad you know. He said if only they’d put another inch on’t Chinamen’s shirt laps, he said we’d be all reight! But, so, a lot of these manufacturing families would start to feel the pinch, in the thirties they’d start to feel the pinch. Now
(950)
can you remember which was the first mill, not the first firm but which was the first mill in Barnoldswick to stop weaving?
R- I don’t know.
Well now I’ll just prompt you a little bit. I don’t really know but I have a fair idea. Before the war, who was weaving at Butts, can you remember?
R – Pickles’ for one, before the war, Pickles’ and Horsfields.
Now, there was a fire at Butts wasn’t there at some time. Can you remember anything about that? There was a big fire there.
R- Yes, I can't tell when it was.
It doesn’t matter. Now wait minute, there’d be Butts, Clough was still weaving. So really the first closures in Barlick were probably during the second world war when they concentrated the mills then. You know they, during the second world war there was, Wellhouse was a tobacco warehouse wasn't it. You knew it was a tobacco warehouse?
R - Yes
Bankfield went over to munitions. Now wait a minute, there was another one went over to munitions which was Calf Hall.
R- Calf Hall?
Calf Hall was munitions as well wasn’t it during the second world war?
E - I think so yes, I think it was. Yes, I think it was.
Now who else?
R- I don’t know.
There was the Rover Company weren’t there?
R - They came to Bankfield.
That was Bankfield, the Rover Company wasn’t it? And they also …
R - And their offices were down at Bracewell Hall.
Is that right? I didn’t know that.
R- Yes, their offices were down at Bracewell Hall, yes.
Aye so Bracewell Hall’d be standing then, yes.
R- And then after that it was taken over with Smiths as a restaurant and a dance place you know?
Now. I’ve heard them talking about going dancing at Bracewell.
R- Yes. And they used to have dances every Saturday night, the Ambassadors Dance, it was very popular. And they used to make, it was a restaurant as well and then they used to have boating on the lake. They had swimming pool, we used to go down there swimming.
And when was that?
(1000)
R – Well, it was after the war.
After the second world war? Aye, I didn't know that.
R- Well, was it after the second world war? After the first it were, when we were in business. Because I remember George Clark picking us up when we were coming home from, you know, on one of our lorries.
That's it, yes.
R- How long is it, how long is it since Billy retired? He was 65. Well, he’d have been 85 now so it’s twenty years since.
Yes, So just after the war it’d be 40 years since.
R- So it would be after the second world war.
That's it, yes. What happened to Bracewell Hall in the finish? Because it’s not there now.
R - Then they must have pulled it down mustn’t they?
Yes, that's it. Aye.
R- I can’t remember. And I was down at Mrs Boothman’s last Saturday you know?
Aye, that’s it, New House Farm, Bracewell.
R- She used to live here you know, [Heather Leigh, Tant and her moved there from New House Farm] and she lives by the church now.
Oh, has she moved back down there? [To Bracewell]
R – Yes, she’s in that house up to the farm.
Oh Anthony’ll be dead now is he? Aye, that’s it.[Anthony Boothman, always called ‘Tant’, used to farm New House at Bracewell.]
R – Yes, Billy’s father and mother were very friendly with Boothmans when they lived at … A great big farm it was, I can’t think, Coulthurst lives there now and it’s a beautiful house.
Stainton Coates*
R - Stainton Hall, Stainton Hall yes.
Stainton Hall was it he had ?
R - Either Stainton Hall or Stainton Coates.
Stainton Coates is where the Coulthursts live.
R- yes. And it’s a very big house.
Yes, that’s it.
R – And Billy’s father used to have a shoot there. And he was very friendly with the Boothman's family. And I was talking to Mr and Mrs Boothman before Anthony died, and I said “I have a photograph of Billy's mother taken with all your family.” They said they’d like to see it and I said they could as long as I got it back. This is when Anthony was living, and she was a right little stout woman was Billy’s mother, just like George, George was little and plump. And she’d evidently gone with Mr Clark you see and he used to go shooting there. Andy so I let him have it I says “But I’d like it back Mr Boothman but I’ve never got it back and I would have liked it back because Billy's mother’s on it and there's all the family. There were four sons weren’t there?
Well there would be.
R - One was a butcher and, and oh Billy used to, and we went one Sunday evening. We went with George’s brother in law.
SCG/25 January 2003
6918 words.