THIS TAPE HAS BEEN RECORDED ON THE 9th OF FEBRUARY 1979 AT YORK HOUSE, THE HOME OF THE INFORMANT ON LINKS ROAD, ST ANNES ON SEA. THE INFORMANT IS GEORGE FORRESTER SINGLETON, RETIRED SENIOR PARTNER IN THE FIRM OF G F SINGLETON AND COMPANY, ESTATE AGENTS, OF BLACKBURN. THE INTERVIEWER IS STANLEY GRAHAM.
An a matter of fact, in this campaign, Chamberlain came to Preston. I think it was in 1901 or 1902 but at any rate my father took me to here him in the Preston Public Hall which I remember very well. The feeling was intense because the cotton trade thought it would damage their prospects of trade and the Conservatives thought that the agricultural interests and certain other interests should receive protection. Now, as I said earlier, on reflection I think the extremists were wrong because there is a case for keeping the farming interest sound economically, as it was a case for not restricting the freedom of trade in other countries. Well, I don't remember the details of the heckling but it was a rowdy meeting. He was quite a
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handsome looking man at the time, always wore a flower, an orchid and he had a monocle. Very attractive man, and a good speaker. Well his policy did not suit the Conservatives in Lancashire and their members of Parliament had voted for free trade against their party on the question of free trade.
And this of course was the famous split wasn’t it in the Conservative Party?
R - Yes well now, this led up to the Election of 1906 when the Liberals got in after a long interval and there was great excitement. By this time Winston Churchill had taken up politics and he was elected as a Member of Parliament for an Oldham constituency. Well, in the formation of the cabinet, under the Prime Minister Sir Henry Campbell Bannerman…
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I think that it’s probably important here to just mention the fact that Churchill was in fact elected as a Liberal wasn't he?
R- Yes.
Because a lot of people associate Winston Churchill automatically with the Conservatives but he was actually elected as a Liberal, he was a Liberal.
R- He was, that’s true. Yes, it's true. Well then, it was a Cabinet of talents. Sir Henry Campbell Bannerman, Herbert Asquith, David Lloyd George, Winston Churchill, Augustine Birrell, [Richard]Haldane whose Christian name escapes my tongue, Sir [Edward] Grey and a few others. Well, they set about their job very vigorously and
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there were many changes in the law of the land leading to the foundation of the welfare state because Lloyd George introduced, yes he was the Chancellor of the Exchequer wasn’t he and he introduced this budget whereby old age pensioners got five shillings a week, and the - now what was it? And he introduced a system of - 1 forget what it was called but - stamps worth 9d. for 4d.
National Insurance
R - National Insurance. The employee paid 4d.
Yes, you used the phrase then ‘Nine pence for four pence’ that was the famous phrase. Yes.
R - That was it, that was a famous phrase ‘Nine pence for four pence’. The employers made a contribution and the government made a small contribution making up the 9d. you see? That was the beginning. And since then of course it's gone up by leaps and bounds.
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Can I interrupt you there please Mr Singleton? Just one thing about that period, I must admit that I am not too clear about this in my own mind. That was the period surely between then and about, say about 1910 when there was the famous battle with the Lords wasn't it? Over the Lloyd George putting in a budget, some said a deliberately provocative budget and the Lords refused to pass it.
R – Yes.
And so in effect took away the right of the Commons to govern because obviously if the Lords could block the passing of the finance bill, it made government impossible and it meant that the Lords actually had a complete veto of the House of Commons. What do you remember of that?
R - Oh well that’s perfectly true. Well, he introduced land legislation and the idea was that the value of land was due not to the individual land owners but it was due to the development of the country. Therefore he introduced a scheme whereby the landlord an any transaction should
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pay a percentage of the price as a duty, and I think it was called ‘Increment Duty’ and this was produced, this legislation took place in 1910 and we had then what was known an the famous ‘Form 4’ to be filled up describing the ownership of the land and all the particulars about it which was in effect a new Domesday Book. The landowners and the Tories fought against
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it bitterly. So much so that they threatened to block the Bill because it was a money bill, money had something to do with it. It was a money bill and therefore they could block it. And Lloyd George said “Well, if you do we’ll create a sufficient number of Liberal Peers to swamp the voting in the chamber.” Well, 1 don't know how many they have now but it would have been fantastic.
I think it was about 250 or 300 liberal Peers.
R – Yes, but anyhow. Eventually the legislation was passed, district valuers were formed, and I remember the one being formed in Blackburn. They appointed the local architect within a few years of his retirement, who know the area, to be the government valuer for the area. I also remember the first Labour exchange being established, in Darwin Street in Blackburn.
What year?
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R – 1909 or 1910 I think it was. It was the year that I was appointed as a manager of a cotton mill. I was only twenty but I remember the manager of the Labour Exchange calling on me to explain the system you see. Well now, whilst that was going on there were other great and important developments, Haldane was the War Minister and he established the Territorial Army in place of the old volunteers. This was of very great importance as it enabled some of the Territorials to go over to France when the 1914 war started to assist the regular army in defending the country. And he put this territorial army on a war footing and the nation owes him a great deal for that preparation. Now I remember the other political battles about Northern Ireland. And a man called
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Edward Carson and an able lawyer called F.E. Smith, those two in particular championed the cause of Ulster and [supported their cause] the suggestion had been that Ulster and the remainder of Ireland should be united. Now this was the nearest to a revolt, to a national, not international – what’s the word for war?
Civil war?
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R- As a civil war. Yes, civil war. Feelings, I remember feelings ran very high indeed. Threats were made and the situation got very desperate. Indeed there was a certain amount of gun running and I believe a man called Sir Roger Casement was eventually executed, was a party to that kind of transaction. And, at any rate he was considered to be a traitor was shot later. Well feelings ran so high that there was almost a revolt in the army. At that time, on the military plain near Dublin was the famous area known an the Curragh
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which was a training ground and there had been a threatened revolt of officers, who would not obey the instructions from the War Office. This was the most serious political incident that I recall, other than the declaration of war. It was very serious indeed.
What year was this?
R – 1914. Now, it so happened that a colleague and I were instructed to go to France to make a valuation for a weaving shed and calico print works and the studios in Paris which belonged to the Calico Printers Association. On our way we spent a night in London - this was in March 1914 - and we decided to visit the House of Commons and we got in the public gallery and it was a sight I shall never forget. The House was full, this
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Curragh incident was the subject of the debate. And I remember the War Minister of the day, I think he was called [Sir Edward Grey] well generally I think someone called Grey had something to do with it, and that he offered his resignation or something like that. And the House was tense and on both sides there were all the great figures of the political era, on both sides of the House. It was a sight
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never to be forgotten and only by chance that I happened to be there you see? And I think I’m right in saying it was Grey but I know Haldane was the War Minister or had been, there may have been come changes, R.B. Haldane, I think that was the man, R.B. Haldane. At any rate it was a very serious issue. Well we went on our way, did our job, came back, and then on the third of August. Oh, and then in July there had been talk of trouble with Germany but nobody thought it was really serious until, I think it was Sunday August the third or the fourth. Word got round that war had been declared - and I walked down to the offices of the Northern Daily Telegraph in Blackburn and there I saw the poster in the window ‘War Declared’ you see? We all knew it was with Germany, but we little knew how it was going to affect us.
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Very good. Now that’s absolutely fascinating but I want too stop you, I want to tidy up one or two little bits now because I can see that we are going to get into the war. This is alright, it’s great. One small point, but I think it was regarded as a large point then. When we were talking about, I think it was the Finance Bill of 1908 originally but it finished up getting passed in 1910, but anyway the famous provocative budget that Lloyd George presented which included the land valuation,
R- That's right.
the tax an increment. The view has been put forward, I have read the opinion that one of the things which frightened the landowners more than the tax really, that disturbed them more than the tax was the fact that in order to make that tax work there had to be, as you so rightly said, the equivalent of a modern Domesday book, a land register. And it frightened the landowners even more particularly, because there is one segment of the political scene which we haven't mentioned, the rise of Socialism. And it was the fact that Philip Snowden, the so called Iron Chancellor, was known to be a strong proponent of these very things, a land register and tax on land. And the view has been put forward that a lot of people could see a situation where the Liberals, having introduced the land register for what was a very minor tax really - it wasn't a really deep biting tax - but they could see the situation where it could virtually be nationalisation of land in that the ownership of land could be taxed so heavily as to make it unprofitable. Would you say that that was a correct assessment of the landowners view then, that really it wasn’t the tax so much as the fact that the land register was going to make it so easy for future governments, perhaps Socialist, to tax land very very heavily?
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R - Well I would say it was a combination because the tax I think was going to be 25%.
So much? I always thought it was less than that.
R - Yes. No I think it was, I think it was 25%.
Yes.
R - Therefore that was a big slice of any sale you see? Andy at the same time, you are quite right, there was the fear of this Socialism which was creeping up. As a matter of fact, Philip Snowden represented Blackburn, along with Sir Henry Norman at that period, you see. Now I was very friendly with the son of Philip Snowden the treasurer, and it was fascinating to get inside information of what was going on in the Independent Labour Party as it was then known. And indeed, I remember at that time
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that my friend told me that when the Labour Government came into office Philip Snowden would he the Chancellor of the Exchequer and indeed he was. It was an interesting forecast but I remember it quite distinctly. Yes, it was a gigantic upheaval was the introduction of this Act of 1910 and the Tories never forgave Lloyd George, never. Now we have heard and learnt a lot about him with the history of the past. It’s all very well probing into the lives of men. And some of the actions which it tell us he did not conform.
That's it. Reprehensible to say the least.
R- Nevertheless, he was the man of his day and the man who eventually saved this country in the [First] World War and there is no mistaking it, with all his faults and
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failings, his drive, his ability, his foresight, led the nation through. Now I know, there is a particular author who is trying to denigrate Lloyd George, John Terrain. I have got his book or one of them and I also wrote to him after I had read it on Passchendaele because I was in that. I was responsible as it happened, only a young man from the provinces, I was responsible for supplying the ammunition to 74 battery positions in the battle of Passchendaele. I lived, my headquarters were at Vlamertinghe Château [Vlamertinghe is a village and commune in the Province of West Flanders, on the railway line and the road between Poperinghe and Ypres.] and there I received, at least twice a day, reports of ammunition spent and what not and I then had to order two days in advance what was the likely requirement. But it so happened that this system coincided with my training in the cotton mill and I was able to cope with the position. Because what I had to do was to keep a record of the stock of ammunition then I had to keep a record of ammunition expended and ammunition brought up and so on. And I had to keep a record for each battery not only of shells but of…
Cartridges?
R – Yes, but there is another word for it. Not the cartridge, it was the nose piece, what the…
The fuse. Yes.
R- The fuse see? Well, anyhow that's by the way, but there is no two ways about it, it was a bloody slaughter in 1914.
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And you see? And Lloyd George, yes, he protested against the generals you see. Now, wait a minute, he came in in 1914 didn't he, to finish it off. Yes well now, I didn't like the way Asquith was treated. On the other hand I didn't believe it at the time but I have learned since that poor Asquith was an alcoholic. Now the situation was desperate, the Germans were at our throat, so poor Asquith had to go and there we are. No, it’s a very sad story. But again, now you talk about the unpreparedness of the military setup in this country. It’s true they were unprepared about the Boer War, they thought it was a picnic, they did not learn the lessons and they were [gentlemen amateurs] Apart from Haldane who in four years – that’s all - had, well in four years had got the territorial army [up to scratch]. Also they had increased the navy and speaking generally we had, more or less, the equipment but the military commanders were still gentlemen of leisure and pleasure and still relied on horses.
Lions led by donkeys?
R - Well something like that. They weren't all [like that]. Now this is where it becomes dangerous. If you generalise you are wrong, but in effect, there is some truth in it. Now, let me say this, I was attached to, in the first place as an ammunition officer, to the Second Anzac Artillery Group.
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The precise name escapes me but the Anzac artillery corps. Now, in charge of this we had a general and about ten or twelve members of staff and each had a particular office you see. Well this was before Passchendaele, whilst the war was in another quarter we were getting ready but there was one of the young officers who had certain privileges on account of his family connections and he would regularly have leave to Paris. And he also…
What was his name?
R- I have refrained from using his name because he was well up in military circles and I have never repeated it.
Right.
R - Now, but he had a pet lion you see, just on the back .. stage. Well you see, that’s only one but you had that mentality of, of playfulness and a certain amount of irresponsibility. And, it was that that we civilian soldiers objected to because we civilian soldiers were largely recruited from the areas where you had to earn your living by your efforts.
In other words you would prefer to run the war like a business?
[There is a personal connection between George and myself here because my father and his brother Stanley were in the Anzacs and were at Passchendaele at this time. My father was in the infantry and my Uncle Stan was a driver on the light railways which delivered the shells that George was ordering up to the line. Stan carried other items as well and I remember my father telling me the story about Stan fortifying himself out of the rum ration he was carrying one cold winter’s night. They found him fast asleep beside his train the following morning, dead to the world. I forget what his punishment was but he survived the war. Not strictly part of this account but closely associated with it and very closely connected to me. I think that serendipity might be alive and well!]
R - I did, without a doubt, without a doubt.
That's it yes. Before we get too far into that, it's all very interesting but you realise that I have a terrible job with you! Now will you just let me go back to… It's so fascinating I forget the questions I was going to ask you! Haldane…
R- Yes.
What do you remember of the controversy over the dreadnoughts before the war?
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R- Yes. Well, there were two factors, one was political and the other was shall we say staff jealousy amongst the admirals. You see it was a period of development and expansion, material expansion. The idea of the navy was to have the latest weapons and they were always on the look out for some such things, but there were others in the establishment who were satisfied with what we had. Therefore, between the two parties and the internal jealousies there was trouble. One of the protagonists was a man, an admiral known as Jacky Fisher. Now he was, and I remember his photograph, he was a pugnacious looking individual and he must have been very difficult to handle. Never the less he had a point and he became, the question of the dreadnoughts became a political storm of the first magnitude. But by this time, I think Churchill had become the First Lord of the Admiralty and he was of the advance guard who wanted to bring them up to date and I think his policy won.
And of course this had an effect on the German naval building programme.
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R- Of course, of course. Well you see, I say there was envy and jealousy nationally. The Royal Houses were related, the Kaiser was a nephew of Queen Victoria. The Kaiser had a deformity which I think affected his character and he endeavoured to make his presence felt. In other words show his authority. Well at the same time the German people, who have great ability in many ways whatever they undertake, they are very thorough, they are good at manufacturing and producing, and in some cases inventing, but we, at that time, had the edge on them and they were wanting to make headway in competition with us. Well, politically and commercially there was the rivalry which led to the catastrophe.
There is, of course the famous incident where the Kaiser is supposed to have looked at the map and asked why so much of it was coloured red.
R - I wouldn’t be surprised. I haven’t heard that one. Well you see, I used to collect stamps, the boy way, and we had a stamp of the British Empire. Well, it was mostly red.
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I remember it, I remember the stamp, I have collected that stamp myself. An interesting thing now in connection with this, the run up to the First World War. Did you have any knowledge of the famous or infamous incident where the Tsar sent the Russian Navy hotfoot round the world to deal with the Japanese, and the Japanese, most unsportingly, sank the Russian Navy at Port Arthur, which of course was, that was one of the big incidents in the run up to the war?
R - Yes it was. It was a great blow to the prestige of Russia. And again, I remember the Guardian reported daily on events, they could only report by telegraph from their war correspondent you see over in Japan.
Yes. One small thing about that which has only just come to me, can you remember anything about the incident when they passed through the North Sea? Can you remember, I don’t want to prompt you too much about this, just to see if you can remember.
R- No. You mean this particular fleet?
As the Russian fleet passed through the North Sea there was an incident.
R – No, I don’t recollect it.
Can I tweak you then to see if you remember it if I mention it to you. They, accidentally in a mist, for some absolutely unknown reasons, fired on some British trawlers. On some British fishing boats.
R - No, that doesn't register, I missed that, I missed that one.
Right, that’s fair enough. My memory of it is very vague and indistinct but for some absolutely unknown reason, it was never understood actually why it happened, but they did actually fire on some, I think they were British trawlers in the North Sea as they were passing through. It might be my memory that’s at fault there, but it’s sticking in my mind.
R – Yes.
Anyway. And so of course they went round there and it took them a long while to get round there because of course their navy was obsolete. Of course everything was obsolete after the dreadnoughts, that was the big thing about the dreadnoughts wasn't it?
R – Yes, exactly.
Everything was obsolete and they had to start again.
R - That's right.
Which meant the tremendous naval building programmes started, and of course reasons had to be found for this and the great thing was that our navy was necessary to defend the sea lanes connecting us to the Empire.
R – Yes it did.
Now, another thing, which comes up. Just lately, A.J.P. Taylor, the famous historian, has propounded a theory recently, which I have great sympathy with, that in actual fact the beginning of the first world war, the 1914 war, the Great War, was actually a result of railway timetables. A thing called the Schlieffen plan. I don’t know whether you have ever come across it, where a German strategist by the name of Von Schlieffen had decided, long since, had drawn up a plan for what would have to be done in the event of a war with France. Which showed how far ahead they were looking. And the only way to shift the troops was to move them through Belgium into France by rail and this was the famous or infamous Schlieffen plan. I take it you have never heard of this have you?
R - No.
Never come across it. Oh well, we’ll finish this tape off, I'll demonstrate my knowledge and it’ll, it might just interest you. The idea was that all the troops would have to be moved to France by rail and the only way to do it was through Belgium. Trouble blew up with France and it was decided to implement the first part of the Schlieffen plan which was to move the troops to the border with Belgium, but what they had forgotten was that once the plan had been set in motion there was no way they could stop the trains, there was no room for them. I think it was at Aachen, I am not sure where the railway actually passed over the boundary. It was more or less a question of the Kaiser saying to the King of the Belgians “Would you please let our troops through and we'll let you have your country back once they have gone through.” And of course this just didn’t work. Once the trains were started off, once they started to move, there was no way they could be stopped at the border, because there was no room for them on the tracks, they had to keep going. And so the Kaiser's hand was more or less forced. He thought that he could make a threatening movement by starting to implement the Schlieffen plan, and then stop it when he had gained his effect. But he found out that owing to the logistics of the railway system and the intractability of the timetables, that once this plan had been started there was no way it could be stopped without causing internal chaos.
R- Yes. No, I have not heard of that but I do remember that King Albert was one of the principal actors in the scene. Now, the Germans threatened the Belgians and we supported, we had agreed to support the Belgians. And once, and the Germans were informed that an no account must they breach the autonomy of Belgium. If they did, we would go to war. The Kaiser and the Germans decided to risk it, now that’s my view, and then of course war was declared. It may well be, as A.J.P. Taylor says, that it did overstep the mark and got themselves involved. But, at any rate, unfortunately the wretched thing happened. Yes. Now A.J.P. Taylor was the son of a cotton manufacturer in Preston I believe. And when I left school, after a term in a spinning mill, I went to learn weaving in a cotton mill which was run by the firm of Taylor.
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