THIS TAPE HAS BEEN RECORDED ON THE MARCH 2nd 1979 AT YORK HOUSE, THE HOME OF THE INFORMANT ON LINKS ROAD, ST ANNES ON SEA. THE INFORMANT IS GEORGE FORRESTER SINGLETON, RETIRED SENIOR PARTNER IN THE FIRM OF G F SINGLETON AND COMPANY, ESTATE AGENTS, OF BLACKBURN. THE INTERVIEWER IS STANLEY GRAHAM.
(This tape was recorded in mono, both sides and is therefore two 45 minute interviews in one transcript)
Now, when we finished last week you’d just arrived at Bailleul and spent a very uncomfortable night under attack. You’ve gone out the following morning and found the two New Zealand soldiers dead outside the dug out.
R – That’s right.
Yes. So if you can carry on from there Mr Singleton.
R – Yes. Well after the battle we withdrew to the wagon lines. You see each battery had its guns in a certain position, and the wagon lines belonging to the equipment for the battery were some distance away in the
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rear, you see? Right. Well then, shortly after that I was appointed as assistant railhead officer at the rear of, well in the district of Poperinghe where the main line from Harfleur terminated, and where ammunition and other requirements were offloaded and then sent by petrol-wagon or small gauge railway track to the battery positions, It was quite an interesting appointment and many men whom I met in civilian life and also in our army training had to come there for ‘T’ tubes for the batteries and it was very interesting to me to meet old friends.
What is a ‘T’ tube Mr Singleton?
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R - It's a ‘T’ tube for setting off the…
Cordite?
R - Yes.
Yes.
R- Well I had been in that position for several weeks when an officer came along who was trained in the same squad at Trowbridge as myself and he was the ammunition officer to Corps Artillery headquarters and he said to me that that his corps was moving out and the incoming corps wanted an ammunition officer, would I be interested? So I said yes, he put my name forward and I was appointed an ammunition officer to
(5 min)(150)
Heavy Artillery Corps with headquarters at Vlamertinghe Château. That was on the way to Passchendaele. Well that was a very interesting occupation and by this time preparations were in hand for the assault on Passchendaele. The Fifth Army on our left and the army on our right joined forces
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so that I became responsible eventually for supplying ammunition to 74 battery positions in the area. That is heavy batteries from 16” railway mounted guns to 60 Pounders. In the course of my duties I had to go forward to the battery positions to make sure which was the best way of delivering the ammunition and I received reports twice daily of the ammunition expended by each battery so that I had to arrange to keep their supplies going. And eventually I was responsible for ordering the ammunition from the port of Harfleur. And what happened was, the ammunition train came to the rail-head, the ammunition was off-loaded onto lorries and onto a small gauge railway, what we call the Decauville track, and what was not used
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or what was not immediately required was transferred to a dump known as Hagle dump.
How do you spell that, Mr Singleton?
R- H a g l e . Well eventually - or after a month or so - the Second Anzac Corps was transferred and its place taken by the Canadian Corps, and
(10 min)
I cannot speak too highly of the Canadians. The spirit and organisation was magnificent. As it happened the weather turned very wet.
What time of the year was this?
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R - During September.
September, yes.
R- Very wet and the terrain heavily pitted with shell holes, became waterlogged. Even the duckboards which were put down got buried in the mud. The battle went on for several weeks and eventually subsided, when the Canadian Army was relieved by the Eighth Army who took over and as I had the local knowledge I was retained by the Eighth Army. However, by December I began to feel the strain and although I was promised leave for Christmas I had very severe pains in the abdomen and was taken to a casualty clearing centre where I was kept a day or two and then sent on to a rail-head,
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a clearing station, and eventually I was shipped back to England to the Royal Free Hospital where I had an operation for appendicitis, that was the diagnosis, it was diagnosed as appendicitis. And by this time of course the pain had subsided and it was a question whether to have the operation or not and the house surgeon said “Well, if you don’t have it there might be a recurrence, now is your chance.” So I took it. However, to return to
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Can I ask you some questions...
R – No. To return to the thread of my story, two incidents stand out whilst I was in France, one was I took the opportunity of attending Talbot House, known an TocH at Poperinghe, and one Sunday evening I heard Tubby Clayton taking the service. And the other thing was when I was taken to the train at the rail-head on a stretcher, one of my bearers was a friend from my old Sunday School in Blackburn and I was put onto a train which had been given by the Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway Co. and which I had seen as an exhibit before I joined the Army. Incidentally, Tubby Clayton was on the same train going to a hospital at Le Touquet I think it was. I'm afraid this is awfully disjointed you know?
No, you are all right Mr Singleton. Can I ask you some questions about Passchendaele and the job that you were doing there?
R – Yes.
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The thing that's always struck me, talking to people like you who were actually in the Great War, is the fact that they always seem to feel that they can't adequately describe how bad conditions were in the trenches. I know my father told me that words can't describe really the terrible desolation and conditions that there were in the trenches at the front line. And I'm not sure but I think my father, funnily enough you see, a coincidence, I think my father was with the Second Corps because obviously he was an Australian, he was in the Anzac ...
R – Yes.
And they were running, I have heard him talk about this narrow gauge railway because he was, he ran ammunition up to the front line on the narrow gauge railway I have heard him talking about it.
R - Well, well.
[Re-transcribing this interview after an interval of 25 years has triggered my memory. We have always had difficulty tracing my father’s career in the army because he joined under an assumed name. I have been told by the Officials at the Australian War Memorial at Canberra that this was quite a common event. He was an engineer before he joined and had experience with railways. However, a long time ago he told me stories about running supplies up to the line on the narrow gauge railway and could very easily have been transporting the munitions ordered up by George Singleton. Incidentally, my Uncle Stanley was working with him and father told a very good story about Stan drinking the rum ration on the way up to the line in the snow. He was found dead drunk the following morning.]
So I mean there is the coincidence for you. But can you describe the actual conditions of transport because obviously we are talking about a narrow gauge railway. This isn't a pleasure railway, this is a railway which is under attack, can you describe the conditions transporting the ammunition up to the line? Obviously this must have been a very well organised affair, and I take it that it would usually be done in the dark.
R - Oh yes. Yes that's true, but it was made more difficult by the fact that often the tracks and the roads were destroyed by shell fire and consequently the Royal Engineers were in attendance for putting the track right and making the roads up all the time. Oh it was a devastating experience and I agree, it’s difficult to describe, you simply went through it and hoped for the best you see? In fact you got to the point where you weren’t thinking about yourself, except for taking cover of course, but you got on with your job and that was it.
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And it's not for me to say whether attacking the enemy was the right policy, but it was a very costly business in life and materials without a doubt. However when I was in London, I received a message from one of my friends who described an advance which was a rare occurrence in that part of the line. And the thrill of advancing and taking any of the positions, he described most vividly and it was very thrilling to read it. Because you see the situation was so tense. Here you were normally, bombarding and getting on with the job and it didn't appear of service to anything for it to happen you see? You were in the same, more or less the same positions. Then the batteries were moved, they had to be moved because the enemy spotted certain positions of course and played onto it, you see? When they found it getting too hot for them, the Major in charge of the situation of course ordered the removal to another position. Under control of course, from headquarters you see? We had a Brigadier-General in charge of the Corps and suitable staff for different positions.
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What was the General's name?
R - Oh I forget his name but the General's name for, in charge of Passchendaele was General Plumer. He was a great Second Army man. I think it was Second Army, but I know General Gough on our left was in charge of the Fifth Army. Now he had a reputation of being a very hard man whereas Plumer was spoken of very highly because of his consideration for his soldiers
[Herbert Plumer was born in 1857. He served in Sudan(1884) and led the army that relieved Mafeking during the Boer War (1899-1901). On the outbreak of the First World War Plumer was placed in command of the II Corps of the British Expeditionary Force in May 1915 was promoted to commander of the Second Army on the Western Front and was responsible for the sector around Ieper until the autumn of 1917. Hubert Gough, a cavalry officer, led a division of the BEF on the Western Front during 1914 and 1915. He became a corps commander early in 1916 and took part in the Battle of the Somme and the offensives at Arras and Ypres. Commander-in-Chief, Sir Douglas Haig, regarded Gough as one of his best officers, but he was severely criticised by others for his over-confident offensive enthusiasm and his belief in cavalry attacks. Gough was blamed for the Fifth Army's collapse during the German Offensive in March 1918.]
Was he?
R - Oh aye. Yes, he is referred to in some of the books of course. Well, this ought to be edited you know, what we are talking about now. I don't know…
When all is said and done, this happened, this is 60 years ago.
R - Yes, of course.
What we are talking about in fact is history. The people are dead I mean and what we are talking about actually is the truth.
R - Well it's ..
I should think the farther away you can get from an event, the more likely you are to get an objective view of what happened.
R - Yes it's true.
I take it that Passchendaele, like so many battles started with intensive artillery bombardment.
R - Oh yes.
Yes. This was the set pattern of battles, yes?
R - Yes.
How did the actual logistics work out? Were you able to supply the guns with the ammunition that they needed or were there any difficulties in supplies?
R – Well, there were difficulties, but as far as I recall they were overcome. There were shortages of certain types of ...
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Fuse?
R - No. What they put on the shells, nozzles ...
Fuses?
R- Yes, that's right. And of course if you hadn’t got what was required you had to give them the alternative.
And I remember you saying that you had read a book by John Terrain
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R- Yes.
About?
R- Passchendaele. Yes.
Yes. And I think you had some comments to make about that.
R- Well yes. My impression is that his main object was to defend the Generals against the Politicians. And, whilst there are faults on both sides, I would say the politicians were quite right in challenging the wisdom of the wholesale slaughter of the Army, particularly on the Somme the year before. I forget the figures but it was hundreds of thousands were killed and wounded. And so, whilst he brings forward a lot of documents in support of his case, 1 can't get rid of my impression that the politicians were right in challenging the wisdom.
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Do you think that, I've heard my father say that he often wondered whether some of the Generals actually realised just exactly what conditions were and what they were asking men to do in the front line.
R – Well yes because, speaking generally, the Generals were at the rear. Now of course some of them did make inspections. The generals, and there were several Generals in the area which I was under you see. Each Corps had its own General but I do remember they made their inspection of the battery positions and indeed on several occasions I had been picked up on the return journey home you see, because I had to go on foot. Yes well, it was, if I had taken a car or vehicle it would only tend to get in the way, it wasn’t worth while. And indeed the roads and the tracks, it was dreadful, so that it was really more satisfactory to go on foot except for the few miles from the Château where our headquarters were to the front. Sometimes I got a lift but speaking generally we had to walk and with our steel helmets on I'll tell you!
Did you? What was the sort of day to day routine of life at the Château say, 1 take it that you wouldn’t have to cook for yourselves, that you’d have cooks there cooking for you would you?
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R - Oh yes we had our food provided you see? We tried to have our evening meals at a regular time but otherwise we took our breakfast and midday meal as and when we were able to do so.
How about entertainment? I mean obviously there’d be very little but was there any relaxation at all? Was there any way of relaxing at all?
R - Yes, several miles to the rear, but you couldn't just please yourself when you went. After you had been at the front, or after the infantry men in particular, after they had been in the front for so long, so many days, they were removed and other troops came in and there was constant movement you see. And in our batteries we had individuals who could make a break by arrangement. But we had a little time off where we could go to Poperinghe. But Poperinghe was a hot spot itself you see, it was farther back that's all. No there was no entertainment.
How about the men in the batteries that you were supplying? How did they stand up to it? I mean, what was the incidence of going absent without leaves or …
R - Well I didn't come across any. Another word for it, what do you call it, desertion.
Desertion?
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R – No. Now of course there were a number of casualties, people going sick, people being wounded and so on but they were replaced you see so that was more or less individual treatment. No I would say they stuck it very well.
What would you say was the general, well not the general consensus of opinion, what was your opinion at the time? Did you feel that you were doing anything concrete towards the war effort? Did you feel that you were doing any good?
R - Well ye, I did in a way, because 1 had a very important job.
Yes.
R- And consequently I felt the responsibility. I would say there was a very good spirit amongst us, particularly amongst the junior officers. I was only considered a junior officer. The Staff Captain was immediately responsible to the General for the ammunition position and other matters but he delegated the ammunition to me you see? And other jobs to others.
Andy and so a good day's work for you then would be when all orders from the batteries had been met, and delivered on time, or as near on time as was reasonable.
R- That’s it. Now there was one, the first General for the Anzacs, he had a habit of asking me in the morning “Has all the ammunition been delivered?” And it was a question I couldn’t answer. All I could say was that I had given instructions for it to be delivered and beyond that I couldn't say. On the whole I don't recall a single instance where there had been a shortage of shells. As I have already said there was a shortage of a particular type of fuse but there were other fuses available but the most popular fuse at that time was number 106, I remember that one, but we had to, the alternative was a number 44.
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But the fuses controlled the timing of the explosion and so on you see? But I know 106 was a favourite.
[The 106 Mk 11a fuse was a percussion fuse and exploded on impact. I have never come across the No. 44 described by George, the No. 80 was the most common time fuse that I know of. I assume what he describes was also a time fuse and wouldn’t explode until it had penetrated the ground thus limiting its anti-personnel effectiveness. A point not generally appreciated is that these fuses were actually a Krupps design and after the war was over Krupps instituted a claim against Vickers for the royalty on the fuses used. I think it was settled by Vickers paying Krupps a notional sum of I think it was £40,000]
Yea. Sop you are busy getting this ammunition up to the guns. Did you ever spend any time, did it ever exercise your mind as to the eventual, well, I hesitate to say use of what you were doing, but did you ever have any thoughts beyond the fact that you were obviously on top of your own job as much as you could have been, did you ever have any thoughts about, you know, why are we doing this?
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R - Oh well, we had settled that, shall we say earlier on. The Government had made it clear that we were under an obligation to the Belgians and if they were invaded we had to came to their help. And the fact of the force and weight of the German Army on Belgium and France made it obvious to the whole nation that we were on our defence, it was a question of life and death. So beyond that we didn’t argue why, we felt it was a fight for not only the survival of the nation, but the survival of justice in the world you see? Because the Germans had developed a shocking reputation for the way they dealt with their people and their method of colonising was quite different from ours you see? But one impression I came away with was the wonderful way the colonies supported us, I met men from South Africa, Australia, New Zealand, the West Indies, India. Oh it was, it was wonderful, it was a reward for the way they had been treated. Now in my opinion but not by way of boasting, the British way of
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colonisation was the best that any nation has put forward. That's a generalisation but that’s my impression. And indeed we had our reward to that extent by the loyalty, the loyal support they gave us in men and in substance you see?
And of course all those men were volunteers.
R - Volunteers, exactly, yes.
Yes, I think that's one of the important things about it isn’t it.
R - You see, we, looking back now, it’s what, nearly 60 years since then.
Yes.
R - Well a lot has happened since and we have been in the habit of denigrating ourselves and we have allowed unfair criticism to be accepted. And I think much of the criticism has been unfair, whilst there were a lot of mistakes if you like, and we were far short of perfection, but the intention on the whole was beneficial. I would say the answer was the support we got. That should be the answer to any criticism of the way they were treated. This is what we got, a voluntary support, and to some tune.
Looking back now, somebody once said that the occupational disease of the historian is hindsight.
R - The what? Occupational?
Disease of the historian is hindsight.
R - Oh yes, of course.
But looking back and obviously with the vast experience you have had since those days, do you think that, has it ever struck you that we had any other alternative in 1914 than to go to war?
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R - I don't think we had because of the jealousy between the German command with the Kaiser in charge and the British success you see? And when jealousy gets in control of judgement it can lead to trouble and it did. Now I would say if we hadn't done, we should have eventually been brought in willy nilly you see? Previously Germany had overrun France, was it in 1870?
The Franco-Prussian war?
R - The Franco-Prussian war, which was relatively fresh in 1914. It was within the memory of living people then you see?
Yes, that’s an interesting point yes.
R - And, knowing that and seeing Belgium overrun - and Belgium in a sense was a buffer state to England - fortunately we had the Channel, the sea has been our salvation so far. But now of course, it's another matter with airforces and nuclear power, the strip of water is not the same security. Nevertheless in those days it was and in answer to your question I would say we should have had no option but to defend ourselves. And the fact that we did it, and I would say for a righteous cause, because we had undertaken to defend Belgium and France, so in the event that was what happened. And it took all the three nations plus the Americans towards the end of the war to cause the defeat of Germany you see?
You have just mentioned something there, that it was a ‘righteous cause’ is the phrase that you used
R- Yes.
That's something that's always, it’s something that bothers me many a time, about people. I mean, I get a picture of you as being a deeply religious man.
R- Yes.
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Andy this is a provocative question, it doesn't necessarily express my opinions but we have the Commandment “Thou shall not kill” and yet men have to go out and kill.
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R – Yes. Well of course that involves a theological point of discussion but there are other facts to take into consideration as well as that one you see. And I think that whilst I am a man of peace and would normally not provoke or attack, the question of defence brings in another principle. But it's not only the defence of yourself, but of others you see, the nation, and I've yet to be convinced that we have not to defend ourselves. Now if I make a digression, in between the wars there was a party in Britain called the Peace Pledge Union which attracted quite a number of people, ministers of religion and the like, and they made demonstrations. Now at that time, towards the end, the German Foreign Minister Ribbentrop was a frequent visitor to this country and I think that Hitler made a miscalculation, possibly on the advice of Ribbentrop and others, that the English would not go to war you see?
(I'll stop you there)
Tape 79/SA/14 - Side 2
R- I think he was advised that there was a doubt about whether the English would protect themselves, or whether they would came to terms, negotiate you see. And that's my belief on reflection, and I knew some conscientious objectors. In fact one friend of mine, I appeared as a witness before a court in Blackburn, no, in Manchester. And then he went, he didn't get what he wanted, he got a modified qualification, but he wanted a complete one and 1 went to an appeal court in Manchester and gave evidence because I knew this man was a real conscientious objector on religious grounds you see?
When was this Mr Singleton?
R- Second war.
Yes, the second world war, yes.
R - Yes. Well now, well I only just brought this in but it… Now, did I tell you that when I left school I went to work in a cotton spinning mill?
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Well yes, we have not got quite as far as that with the structured tape, but yes.
R- But at any rate, it might be interesting here. Now my first contact with the Nelson point of view was at the age of 16 when 1 left school and went to work as office boy in a cotton mill at Blackburn. And one of the products was the making of ball warps. Now ball warps were for a particular kind of cloth, and it so happened that the Nelson area had been an area where ball warping played a prominent part in the cotton trade. So there were three
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ball warpers at this mill and they travelled from Nelson daily. Now, they were in a quiet part of the mill, it's an interesting occupation winding the warp from the beam, you have probably seen them. And I used to have to go to give them messages, instructions, orders, you see from the office and they liked an audience. They would engage me in conversation and I was shocked by their attitude to royalty you see? This was my first contact with the, what shall I call them, what would you call these men who…
Left wing?
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R- Well you have called it left wing, that's right. Well at the Sunday school which I joined on coming to Blackburn I made a friend of the son of a man who was Philip Snowden, who was one of the early members of the Labour government, members of Parliament. And as a result, in
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our conversations we talked about Socialism and the Independent Labour Party and the Reverend Charles Kingsley and Ramsay MacDonald, whom I remember coming to Blackburn, in fact I travelled with him on his return journey to London but only as far as Darwen, I was sat opposite to him. But these early pioneers of Socialism were imbued with the spirit of friendliness if you like and social welfare as we call it, or improving the lot of many people. And indeed, there was room for improvement. And some of them thought that the Church had got somewhat rigid and wasn't
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acting quickly enough. Well, this of course, Socialism, was reinforced by what we now call the Communistic programme. And I don’t know, what year did Karl Marx die? I forget now. But, at any rate, these various alternatives of government were being mooted and bandied about and they had an appeal to the working class people. Now, you can't blame them because it was attractive, and the doctrine of Communism at that time was ‘You have nothing to lose but your chains’ Now, to somebody who was hard up and they have got no assets, it’s a very attractive doctrine. You see, in other words
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all you have got to do is to help yourself. Well, this kind of thing developed under the aegis of the Independent Labour Party, which comprised a number of educated people like Beatrice and Sidney Webb for instance you see and people who felt there were injustices in the body politic, and they were taking a short cut to put them right so to speak. Now it’s a complicated business, but that was the atmosphere which was developing about 1914 you see? And it was growing. Now I took an interest in politics and took part in the 1906 election. I was a carriage boy on the polling day, bringing people up to vote. Now, and as a reader of the Manchester Guardian and taking an interest in what
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was going on it became noticeable that the people in Nelson were more left wing than other towns. Of course Nelson was one of the newish towns in the county, and it could make a fresh start and it did. It also attracted manufacturers from other areas because it could offer more modern mills and more modern dwelling houses so to that extent it had an advantage. Why the leftwing political action should develop so strongly in Nelson I can’t say but it did. In fact it was known an Little Moscow you see?
At one time in fact, I think it was the only time it ever happened, the Independent Labour Party actually controlled the Council at Nelson.
R – Yes. I believe it did.
Yes, I think it was the only place.
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R – Yes, I believe it did. Well now as 1 say, it was very attractive and it took, it drew a large number of people from the churches, particularly Non-Conformist churches, and they adopted the method, the church methods of raising funds by having house meetings and collections. You see I have known this, I have been told this by people because I mixed in society at all levels see? Not only in my church work and my mission work, I was connected with the Blackburn Methodist Mission and also political. And so I had my fingers on the pulse of what was going on. Now I would say that the impulse if you like, of Socialism was inadequate because it didn't change the lives of the individual, it changed the environment, that's what it set out to do and it has done but it’s not an adequate policy In my opinion to be relied on, it has its weaknesses. Now, as has now been shown by the way the political side has
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developed. Now, the action of trade unionists today is a travesty of the Socialism of yesterday you see? And the vision has gone of ‘Each for all and all for each’ you see? It's now ‘What can I get out of it? Where do I come in?’ you see? But unfortunately those who vote yet are still deceived by the plausibility and the promises of the Labour Party which called itself a Socialist Party but it's far from being Socialism in its ideal state as understood you see?
Yes.
R - And as I said it's a big subject but we’ll have to come back to it again.
Well now, leading on from that, connecting that up to the war, it seems to me that - and I’d like you to put me straight on this, tell me what you think about this - the Great War was, I think we have both agreed, a tremendous watershed in more ways than one.
R - Oh yes.
For almost anything you care to mention. For the spirit of Empire, the ...
R – Everything.
... direction of the country, the role of women in society and…
R- Everything ... everything.
Now, what effect do you think the Great War and the fact that so many young men went to military service and, if they were lucky enough to return
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return, certainly after what must have been a shattering experience. What effect do you think that had on - and what we are talking about now is for want of a better term 'the working class of Britain' - did it affect their attitudes?
R - Well it did, it affected their attitude to religion. For one thing the old regime, the old routine of attending Sunday School and service and conforming to type had been shattered by the, shall we say the means of the war. Now we are talking about those who'd returned. In the first place they were tired out you see? They wanted a period for recovery and of course the politicians put it forward that we were going to make the land fit for heroes to live. Well, a very laudable ambition but it was a long way from what eventually happened. Now we soon found that we’d, to a large extent, expended our monetary resources in defence in the course of the war so that we had inflation with us, up to - for a period - as far as five
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times the cost pre-war. Well then, as goods came on the market and as production developed, the situation changed and gradually prices came down and then we had a slump, two or three years after the war. I think it was in 1924 and I would say from then prices had got to twice 1914. Now, there was also a certain amount of unemployment because not only our country but other countries were finding the monetary situation difficult to balance. Well then we went off the gold standard. We, no, we went on to the gold standard, which was a purist idea on monetary lines but the effect was disastrous because it led to the collapse in 1929 when if you remember there was a National Government. Now in the ten years, people had hardly time to get settled down. When the war was over they had hopes that everything would be lovely but it didn't turn out that way. It was delightful to live in a condition of peace and with the [removal of] limits to have the freedom of movement and so on and, but these events
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if you like cast shadows over the country and made it difficult. And strange to say, and I don't like admitting it, but the recovery in the national trade and employment was due to preparation for the Second World War. It was.
Yes.
R - Now, if that had, I don’t know, if that hadn’t happened what would have taken its place. I suppose we’d have jogged along but we have got to deal with the facts. And then in the space of 25 years there was another war started, 1939 you see? Now they, I think we had not the quality of politicians that we had before the First World War. And what makes me say that is that the Rent Restriction Acts were put in rightly to protect those who were away in the forces, but they were retained [after the war. Now that was a gross injustice on landlords.
Was that the original reason?
R – Yes.
I didn’t know that Mr Singleton.
R – Yes. Well that, people don’t know. You see, simply to say that ‘You are serving in the army your house shall not be taken away from you.’ or ‘your wife will remain in the house where you were.’ which was right you see? Now a large number of houses were owned by working people, because until 1909 there was no welfare State and the
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aim and object of the working class was to avoid the workhouse and avoid the Poor Law, and avoid a pauper's burial. Now that was a fear in the minds of people before the First World War. Now, they made various self-help steps to protect themselves from those things you see? They'd local burial societies, they'd local self-help organisations and so on. There was something else, yes the thrifty workpeople, with the fear of the workhouse shall we say at the back of things, they saved and they bought their own cottage and the one next door. This is the theory of it, it wasn’t always the same proximity but the idea was this, that - now rents for certain types of cottages would be about 5/ a week, including rates - so that and their income from earnings varied from, a railway porter was 18/- until 1911 but the average wage would be about, in Coventry 25/- but it varied from 21/- shall we say, to 32/-. Now the aim and object of the thrifty was to save and buy their own cottage and the one next door. Now if they then, they were rent free and they had an income of 5/- a week. Now then you see. Now, there were thousands of those, there was a ready market, there was an auction market nearly every week of cottage property changing hands in Blackburn and other towns. Because they were not grasping landlords, not they, they were honest to goodness thrifty people but they were unable to protect themselves and they did not get the rents which they were entitled to. And the properties fell into neglect and that's the root cause of the housing trouble today. There is not a shadow of doubt. Now then. Now ... Right. Well now - where have I got to?
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That they ... That was the start of the housing trouble today.
R - Oh yes. Now, and this is a challenge to democracy, if the political parties will not face reality, then democracy is doomed. But only one man endeavoured to face the issue and that was Macmillan when he was the Prime Minister. Now Harold Macmillan – no, I'm not a Conservative nor am I a Labour man - so I was speaking independently I think, Harold Macmillan will go down in history as one of the best Prime Ministers we have had, with all his faults as a junior minister. He had more houses built in his career time than any other. And he did make an attempt to get the Rent Restriction Act removed, he got one removed, I forget which type of house, and then shortly after his government came down and the Labour came in again. It was revoked. Now it's wrong, it's injustice, it’s not just to use other people’s money and this is what's happening. And I put it another way, that the television industry has thrived on the rents that the landlords should have received. Now 1 know there is a friend of mine living in a rented house now and his parents got it in 1914, and he is still in this house you see and paying a rent, and the landlord's only entitled to a certain rent which is inadequate to maintain it so he does a bit to maintain it you see. But this is the root cause why so many thousands of houses
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have been let go to rack and ruin and now the country, the government are putting, lending or giving millions for them to be restored when it's too late. Oh it's, I shudder to think of what’s going on. No wonder we then got inflation, that’s only contributory, that's only one, we are spending far too much money in figures than we have got. And what is happening in this is that the saving, the reserves of the
(30 min)
country are being squandered. Now, some people will say I am biased but I say that is a fact.
Yes.
R- Now, in my youth, this son of a treasurer for Philip Snowden, he used to talk to me about how capital money was watered down like milk. You see it’s a common expression. And people got money for shares who were increased, and all that kind of thing, for nothing. Now it's easy talk and it was wrong, but I am going to use it for the same way because now the real money is being watered down by inflation so that although I may have saved 2 or 3 thousand pounds up to 1939 that will only buy me now £200 worth, you see?
That’s it.
R - Now then, and that's only mine but this is what’s happening and we are impoverished now. I had a friend of mine, well one of my partners, in here and we were talking about insurance and he said to me, “I don’t think you have insured your house for a sufficient sum.” I say “Well, I want your advice” He says “For instance, what do you put this suite at?” I said “Oh, about £400.” He says “Ridiculous, you wouldn’t get it for £1000 today.” I said I wasn’t bothered and he said well, there you are.
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I took a piece of silver, a silver plate, a solid silver salver, it’d come down to me from my wife and from her brother and so on you see? Now one of my family, well two are having silver wedding jubilees this year. So I’ve got two pieces of silver, one piece has been badly scratched, so I took it to a jeweller “It’s very nice is this. Well it will be when it's finished up. I got a quotation for one last week, £495.” Now, that would have been, when it was bought that would have cost about £50 or £60 you see. Now, £495, eight times you see. And I had some fish eaters, I had taken those to, and they are 120 years old, solid silver, they had been handed down. So instead of buying [a present], you see I said “Well” and they have got the S on, Singleton. So I took those because one had got bent, a fork had got bent you see? He said “Oh, I’ll soon
put that right, and polish them off. What do you think they are worth?” I said “I don't know.” I thought I was being generous at £150. He says “What!” Now look here, I'm a valuer but I am out of date, and I wouldn’t advise anybody. I'm not confident now because I've rusted you see, as far as actual value. I can talk about principles but not actual value see?
Yes.
R- Now those two simple illustrations, I could not afford to have bought either of those to make presents.
That's it.
R - Now then, that’s it you see? Now it's only because we happened to have them in the family. Now this is an illustration, this is going on, and the country's being denuded, and people are selling. How many shops, antique shops are opening? Like mushrooms. Why? Because people don’t know the value of things which they can get, and the traders
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come in, the bright boys are speculators, and they buy and they sell to America and so on. There you are, it's only a fact. Now, it is going, our reserves are going.
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Now then, we have got one of our little digressions there, it's all very interesting but we'll go back if you please to during the Great War. You had been brought home from the front with a suspected appendix and had it removed.
R- That’s right. Well it was removed by an eminent surgeon from Australia, a Mr Cummings who had a reputation of having written a book on surgery. And the operation, the night following the operation was the last night a Zeppelin attack came over London, and the patients were taken to the basement you see? And I remember saying to the porters “Well, you don’t need to take me down. I have been under worse conditions for month you see, shells were all over the place!” However, they took me down. The following day I complained of a pain in my groin and a pain in my chest. I eventually coughed up a clot of blood from the chest but the one in my groin, my leg was swelling. It turned out that the clot of blood had escaped from the wound and it was causing congestion in a vein or an artery, I don't know what, all my legs began to swell. Well eventually I was discharged from hospital and sent to Kings Lancashire Military Hospital at Squires Gate, Blackpool on the site of the present airport. And then, being an officer, I was - what shall I say - living in one of the hotels on the promenade, the Queens Hydro to be precise. Now this was in the spring.
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What year Mr Singleton? What year?
R- 1918. This was in the spring, and it was a very happy camp. As it happens I knew many of the officers, they were friends of mine, we had met in different parts and known [knew each other. And Blackpool was a very bracing holiday centre without a shadow of doubt and the recovery was good. But mine was a slow business. I recovered, my health and strength returned, but it transpired the swelling in the leg was permanent. So in November, the firm whom I had left to join the army, were short of staff and seeing that my health had returned, they wondered if I could help them. So we came to terms with the War Office, that I should be temporarily seconded to the firm and they would reimburse my, what do you call it?
Salary?
B:- My, you know, pay.
Your pay.
R- Pay. And that went on until the February in 1919. Yes, then I was discharged with a small pension for the disability. And I remember the surgeon who discharged me said “Well young man, you'll never have a nearer squeak than what you've had. Get back into civil life and forget it.” Which I did.
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Good.
R- In other words, this clot of blood on the lung, you know, could have…
Yes
R - Oh yes.
Aye, obviously. So that was the finish of the war for George Forrester Singleton.
R- That’s right.
And looking back now - how can I say - obviously the war was a very bad experience, a shattering experience for many men, many men were never the same again. But what were the good things? Did anything good come out of the war as far as you were concerned? Out of your military service? Let me put it that way, out of your military service.
R - Well yes. I was able to qualify as an officer got a commission, which gave me a status and a better style of living than an ordinary soldier. And, but as it so happened, I was equal to the occasion by the services I was able to give as I have already explained to you.
What I really mean is, do you think that the George Singleton that came out of the war was a different George Singleton than the one that went in?
R- Well yes, you’re bound to be. It was a hard experience of life, the training was hard, the conditions were hard, but we never expected them to be anything else, that was the order of the day. The nation was at war, our backs were to the wall, civilians were making munitions, the able men, and women later, were taking part on the active front, you see? So that we were, shall we say wiser, after the event and as far as individuals learning anything, yes we learned that there was a
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camaraderie amongst the fellows you met and you met all kinds of people from all strata in life and it was a very interesting experience and certainly broadened one’s view, without a doubt.
Yes. One last thing. You said something during the course of that tape that intrigued me, that you travelled back to Darwen on the same train as Henry Campbell Bannerman and in fact you were in the same compartment.
R – No, not Campbell Bannerman. . .
Ramsay MacDonald.
R - Ramsay MacDonald.
I beg your pardon, Ramsay MacDonald, that's my mistake. You are quite right, that’s my mistake.
R- Right.
Did you have any conversation with him?
R- No.
What was your impression of Ramsay MacDonald?
R - Well he was rather, but {George was running out of time] (you have got W) Yes. On the political side I have, I have always been interested in politics because both my father and grandfather were ardent Liberals, but I remember my father took me to hear Joseph Chamberlain in Preston, I think in 1901 and since then I have heard Philip Snowden, Keir Hardy, Lloyd George, Herbert Asquith, T.P. O'Connor as he was known - an Irishman. And of course before radio and television the only way politicians could get a message over was to hold meetings in large centres and the daily press. And so, Oh yes, Sir Archibald Sinclair and so on. Right, I think…
SCG/09 June 2003
8,365 words.