THIS TAPE HAS BEEN RECORDED ON NOVEMBER 18TH 1978 AT 13 WHITEHEAD STREET, RAWTENSTALL. THE INFORMANT IS JOHN GREENWOOD, FORMER MANAGER AT SPRING VALE MILL. THE INTERVIEWER IS STANLEY GRAHAM.
Straight away again John. You were delivering all these comics so you'd be reading them on the way round and all, I know.
R- Naturally, yes. Aye,
That’s it aye. Do you know, did your father ever do any work in the house you know?
R - Oh no.
Nothing at all?
R - Very rare. I meant if he stopped in at night it was a wonder. And it were a funny thing, the little things stick in your mind. I remember one time he was making me a track out of soapbox. And he
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was stopping in that night, so of course me mother had to go for a pint to the pub round the corner.
Jug and bottle.
R - No, the Old House at Home, it's still there.
No but I mean the jug and bottle department, aye. but anyway…
R - Oh aye. When it came out, she went for this pint and I know he was… he got two wheels, you know, two baby carriage wheels, he got this soap box and he were going very nicely, and I can see him now .. on the hearth in front of the fire of course and she brought this pint and when he tasted it she’d brought the wrong sort so he put the axe through the box.
Is that right? Aye.
R - Oh yes. You see I mean the thing is that I’d been looking forward to this truck so as I could give kids a ride you know, mind you I was only small meself, but it was going to be a little truck. You see you didn't get toys then like you do now. Well we never had money to buy toys you see and it were going to be something to play with.
Aye. Looking back John, one of the things that always strikes me, talking to people of your generation is that you always get the impression that the women folk were very much second class citizens. Would you say that that was right?
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R - Oh yes, definitely, especially in the working class, because well the fellas, they used to have shall I say, not a superior air, that wouldn't just be putting it right. They were the bread winner and as such they enjoyed [status] For instance, I mean when we, well we never had much money, I don’t know what father did with it. Well I do know but I'm not going to say. But I mean, he’d be having say steak for his tea and we’d be having jam. You see? Or I mean, on the other hand we’d have something cheaper. Well I mean we never got meat, not a. steak
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you know, we never got that. No. And the thing was that they were, well I mean, in the later years as I was getting older, he used to spend his time every night at the club seven days a week. In point of fact he finished up being secretary or something. I know there were a summons for some licensing offence and of course he had to go to court. Me mother played heck with him for showing her up. But this was it you see. But I mean they used to spend a lot of the time in the clubs.
I mean when you come to think about it, your mother’s life was all mill and work at home.
R- Oh well this is one of the things that I honestly think contributed to her illness. You know, because I mean, into water out of water, into water out of water. You know? I mean and then again the thing is that she had six children in between and all that that entailed. This is sure to undermine the resistance you know because when you'd to work all day you couldn't so very well come home and start making a great big meal because when we came in we wanted our tea you see? And this was it. Until we got older. I mean like me eldest sister was only two years older than meself.
Did it strike you, did you ever think at the time, I mean we are talking now of course with hindsight, looking back, but at the time when you were younger, did it ever strike you then that your mother seemed to always be working?
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R- Oh yes, oh aye it did. And I mean, in point of fact, as 1 say like it got to the point when we were old enough where actually, I mean today a lot of children wouldn't think of doing it, that it were our job to wash up you see when we were quite small. And I mean .. 1 can remember at Saturday mornings me eldest sister, she [mother] used to leave us in bed then you see because they only worked while dinner time. And me oldest sister, although she was only two years older than myself she used to have to get us up. And me mother would have left our breakfast ready you know but there were no tea. I mean she never boiled the kettle because she was really. well 1 mean, happen about eight you see? And she'd give us breakfast, give us our breakfast so that we didn't go hungry. But this was it, me mother used to come home at twelve.
Hard days John, they were that.
R - Oh well, this was it. This is why, one of the things why, kind of, they say "Lancashire lives in a chip shop" you see. And this was it. I mean the thing is that you came home and you used to go to the chip shop and the tripe shop, this is why I like tripe and black puddings.
Yes that's it aye. That house in Green Street, did the family own it?
R - Oh no
No? It was rented?
R – No. He never owned a house until we went into, until I bought the first one on Raby Street you see? Oh they were all rented.
Yes. Now that house in Green Street, have you any idea what the rent was for it?
R- Yes. It were about four and ... I think it were four and fourpence a week.
Yes. Did that include rates?
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R- Oh yes, aye.
Yes. And who was the landlord?
R- David Whitehead. David Whitehead’s owned the house in Green Street. And actually, what we wanted, me mother said she wanted a house in the next street to us, which is Union Street, which David Whitehead’s owned and they were bigger houses you see.
Yes. And who was David Whitehead’s?
R- Well David Whitehead’s, they were the local mill owners. David Whitehead and Sons.
Would you say that they were good or bad landlords?
R- Well, it was a case of this you see, that they had joiners and this kind of thing so if you wanted anything doing you got them done. With the exception that you know, they were always, shall I say, you'd to pay for your own windows or anything like that. Yes but the houses weren't anything salubrious at all in as much as there were no mod cons, no baths or anything.
You say they were they were local mill owners. Did they, they'd build the houses for the workers?
R- Yes. I mean all these houses in this area were built between 1870 and about what, 1910. Probably before that some of them. But they built all of them. You see in those days when they brought these people from Cambridge and Lincolnshire they had to have somewhere for them to live.
That’s it yes.
R- So of course you see they built these houses for the workpeople and it was more or less a tied cottage, in as much as if you got one of their houses you worked at their mill. Although the actual tying didn't apply in as much as you could work somewhere else and still be in one of their houses.
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Like your father, I mean he was a coal carter but he rented one of their houses. Yes. Which shop, which mill did your mother work in?
R - Well she worked in Lower Mill, this is the one down here, for thirty odd years.
And who owned that?
R- David Whitehead’s.
Whitehead’s.
R- But originally she worked, as I say my first recollection is she worked at Acre ..
Acre at Haslingden?
R- At Haslingden, well it's nearly half way between Haslingden and Accrington and I can't tell you who owned that. But then she came down to Whitehead’s here and actually our family would have three generations and I don't know how many years of service at Whiteheads. I mean me grandmother, I can remember going in the mill to visit me grandmother. And she, as I say she was a winder and my mother worked thirty odd years. I have two sisters who’ve worked there forty odd years you see, each, oh aye.
Each. Did your mother do any work in the house to earn a bit of money you know, like child minding at home or taking washing in?
R - Oh no. No she was always in the mill. Aye.
She was always in the mill and working. Aye. Can you remember anybody in the neighbourhood doing anything like that?
R- Oh aye. Aye I mean like I said, Snuffy Martha used to. There used to be us two and then there’d be her own granddaughter, and Bella and…
How about taking in washing?
R - Well there used to be women who did but normally, usually they were what you might call a little bit higher up the social scale who sent their washing out but there used to be washer women I can't just bring any to mind but 1 have a faint recollection of somebody and they always did Mrs so and so's washing from the big house up Haslingden Road. And she always sent her washing to them because she knew it was just so. You know they used to use plenty of starch, and boil their clothes you know, wash coloured separate from whites and what have you.
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Is that house in Green Street still standing?
R – No, it was demolished about seven or eight years ago.
Yes. Now, the house that you moved top in The Fold, the one that your mother didn’t like and you were there until you were 18, how many bedrooms did that house have?
R - Oh it only had two.
It was still a two up and two down. Yes. So basically in all essentials that house was the same as Green Street.
R- Yes except that it was a bit smaller.
Aye. Smaller.
R- Yes.
Two up, two down, no gas, no electricity
R- No.
No mains drainage, tippler lavatory. Tell me, there was your mother and father and there was six children .. how many children were there when you moved into the Fold?
[SG was wrong here. A tippler lavatory needs a water carriage system and mains drainage. What I was confusing it with was a flush lavatory]
R - Only two.
Only two.
R- No, four, there were four of us.
Four, that's it. Ah well then, four in one bedroom wouldn't be so bad really would it?
R- No. Oh well, it used to be that the two youngest used to sleep in the same bedroom as my mother and father. In point of fact we all did you see at one time. You know it was a great bit room. And then of course as I got older or, no, it were my sister, she was two years older than me, she flitted into the back bedroom with the girls you see.
Aye that's it. Now that house at the Fold, is that standing or has that been ...
R - Oh no, that's been demolished.
That's been demolished and all.
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R- Aye. So is the next house we lived in Barlass Street which was quite a good house, well they've been demolished for the bye-pass. You know the by-pass as you came down, well that’s where they stood. In point of fact, as you go to the bottom, as you go to the bottom here to come on to the junction of the by-pass, the houses were exactly back to the river. The river is culverted there you see, well they were back to the river.
Right, we'll get on to, we'll do a bit about food. What did your mother, we are talking now about Green Street, what did your mother cook on?
R- What did she cook on? On the fire.
On the fire.
R- That was the only means of cooking.
Yes. So that’d be .. fireplace, set boiler on one side and oven on the other.
R - Or the oven. Yes.
Lading tin?
R- Oh yes, aye.
Aye. Did the boiler have a tap on it?
R- Oh no. No, you used to lift the lid up and ladle it out.
That’s it aye. Some did though didn't they. Some did have a brass tap on the front, some of the more modern ones you know. And black lead and silver sand for t' steel.
R- Oh aye. No, emery paper.
Emery papery that’s it.
R- Aye. Fire irons you know, the fender, poker and tongs and then we used to have a little short poker on top of the boiler for raking the grate. Aye, and a top bar of course.
Aye, the top bar.
R- Top bar, and the top bar had, it had a brass rail across the end. It was steel you know. You used to scour that with emery and then polish the brass part with Brasso. And then you see, you just put the kettle on. And you’d have a black fire and then they'd pull it off and put it right and you'd shine it up.
[What John is talking about here when he mentions a black fire is a fire that has been recently replenished with a shovel full of coal and has not burned through. Open coal fires were very inefficient because when the coal was first put on the heat started to drive the volatiles off the coal but was not high enough to ignite them. This meant ‘green’ smoke coming off and then eventually a flame. Even then the flame was not hot enough to burn all the volatiles and this was when soot was deposited in the chimney. This soot also condensed on the top bar and the kettle blackening both. So the top bar had to be cleaned before this soot burned on to the metal. The ideal fire to cook on was bright bed of coals with no flame or smoke.]
How about cleaning the flues out round the oven, who did them?
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R- Me.
[The side oven was heated by a system of flues which allowed hot gases from the fire to surround the oven. Normally these were closed off by a damper at the top of the oven where the oven flue rejoined the chimney. The temperature of the oven was regulated by adjusting this damper. Before using the oven the bottom flue had to be raked out so it was not choked by ashes and clinker. There were small access lids on the other oven flues which could be lifted off and the soot and fine ash swept out of the flues. This gave better heat transfer.]
How often did you do them?
R- Oh every time you put the oven on. Aye.
Yes. Took all the lids off and give them a good scrape out.
R- Well we used to have our little coal rake like that you see, and you had this little short thing, lift it up, and then you got your shovel underneath and then you got your [rake] and scraped all your whatsit [ashes] out.
That's it, aye.
R- I used to clean out under the oven, that was when I got older of course. I mean afore that time I think mother used to do it. This is why we had the big coal rake, like with the fire irons there used to be tongs and this big coal rake.
Because they had to nearly always clean the flue out just before they baked didn't they, to make sure the oven were warming reight.
R- Oh yes, always, aye.
And when did she, when did she get her first gas stove?
R- Oh well, when we went into Barlass Street.
Where did it come from, do you know?
R- Eh that's something I can't tell you, but I can see it now, it was a big black iron one
Cast iron.
R- Yes.
Were it black leaded?
R- Yes. Wait a minute. Yes, aye it wasn't enamelled, Oh aye, aye.
Aye. So that had to be black leaded.
R - Oh aye, it had to be black leaded.
What is it Ernie Roberts said? I’ll have to bring an Ernie Roberts tape and play it to you sometime. Ernie Roberts said about their gas stove, he said .. and I asked him, I said “Where did it came from?” He said “I don't really know but I can see it
Now, stood there bow legged and black cast iron. Looking as if it could have taken all the punishment anybody could ever give it.” And I thought that was a good description of one of the old gas cookers.
R- Oh aye, but the thing is that the early ones that I can remember, like if you baked a cake in them they used to have a bit of a tang as though there was some fumes off the gas that got into the cake. And for years me mother never would bake cake in a gas oven, she'd always bake cake in the ...
In the side oven. Aye, that's it aye.
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R- The side oven, yes. Although we had a gas oven she used to do that. But on the other hand, you see, you had four rings on you know, you could be boiling the kettle on one and have potatoes on one and do your stew on another.
Great thing then.
R- It was, indeed. The quality of eating improved, you know when we got a gas cooker.
Yes. With the heat that came off the cooker. [I’d miss-heard John but I don’t think he noticed. SG]
R- You see? Oh aye. And then again the thing is you didn't have to keep messing your fireplace up. You see, if you were having a stew or something like that you see? And again as I say this was in an out kitchen you see, we had the sink and the gas cooker and we had a shelf up with all pothooks on and all the pots and plates were all on the shelf and then the dolly tub and what have you were all stuck in there you know. And your dining room was a dining room you know, you'd chairs in or a sofa…
Straightened the house up.
R- Oh yes, oh it was a big improvement.
So she baked her own bread once a week?
R - Twice.
Twice, that's it aye. She did aye, you were on about oven bottom cakes on Sunday weren't you?
R – Sunday aye.
Yes. And when she baked cakes, what kind did she bake?
R- Well, in the early days of course it was just flat sad cakes, or plain sad cake. If she’d no currants it were plain sad cake which you used to put a bit of butter on, margarine, and syrup or a bit of marmalade. But at one time you know, you couldn't have both butter and jam, you'd either to have butter or jam, I mean things were stringent you see.
Yes, that’s it. Did she make her own jam and marmalade or pickles?
R- Oh no..
Home made wine?
R- No, no.
Beer?
R- No.
Any of her own medicines?
R- No, beer was strictly out, I mean me mother was a strict teetotaller.
She was? Yes.
R - Oh aye. Aye me mother had a tendency to be religious in as much as ... she was a Salvationist for donkeys years you know. Oh aye.
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R- I mean I never have been but she always sent us to Sunday school and that
were Methodist. See, this place that they're building at the bottom of the street here, that were known as Spring-Side Mission
Yes, one thing about that, wait a minute, hold on a minute, I thought that Salvationists were supposed to marry within the Army.
R- Ah, well I mean you can become Salvationist outside of the Army. Only if you were an officer. Aye, only if you were an officer, aye.
That's it. That's it aye, that's what I'm thinking of John. I knew there was something. I couldn’t just think what it were then.
R- Well, the Salvation Army used to be very strong, and in point of fact if you go past the old house here, there is a spare piece of ground that's railed round now you know, guard rails. Well the Salvation Army used to stand there and it was a wood place and it was quite strong at one time, quite strong. Of course I think that's why my mother started going because like it were just round the corner you see. But she was a Salvationist for donkeys years.
How did that go down with your father?
R- Oh me father were anything but. I mean, he kept us poor really with drinking and betting.
Do you think that probably it was a reaction against that sort of thing that turned your mother to Salvationism you know?
R- Probably, probably. Because you see I mean I say this, I mean I've been a lifelong teetotaller and I've never smoked and this was it, I saw what you might say, that much of it that it turned me against it.
You very often get that John. Yes.
R- You see? And if anybody says anything I usually say “Well, my father supped my share!” You see?
Aye. What did you usually have for your breakfast?
R - Well if the fire were red we’d have toast, you see, but if not it were mainly jam and bread. Or on the other hand we used to eat a lot of dripping, you know from the butchers.
Bread and scrape.
R- Well I mean the thing is you see, it was savoury in as much as you put a bit of salt on that.
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That's it. Yes that's it.
R- And it tasted. ... We used to eat a lot of syrup you see. Not too much black treacle, because we didn't really care for that but syrup and jam, marmalade and margarine. Of course margarine was very cheap then, it's not like it is today you know, same price as butter.
Aye, that's it.
R- But I know I can remember for a special treat me mother used to buy herself occasionally a quarter of butter and she'd have that. Aye.
She did right. She did.
R- Aye, though mind you, I’ll tell you another thing we used to have a lot of, pobbies.
Aye. Right, bread pobs.
R- Aye, bread pobs. You know I mean she used to give us what she could and I mean we got middling of milk.
Aye. When you were doing bread pobs did you put them in just as they were or did you toast it first?
R- Oh no, just put them in as they were you know ...
Aye. I used to like them toasted you know, I used to like it toasted first.
R- Oh aye, well I mean, that
Toasted then cut up and then thrown in, aye.
R- No, the thing is, you used to get your bread, break it up and put your milk on. Then put a bit of sugar on, you see?
That's it. Aye.
R- And today I detest the sight of them.
Eh, do you know I still do, I still like a bit of toasted bread and milk, aye.
R- Oh no, I can't. Another thing I don't like is warm milk, I don't know whether it's because we had that much or what, I don't know.
Aye well. And what would you have for your dinner during the week?
R- Well it was always ready made in as much as .. unless say she was at home having a child or something like that and we used to fare very well then, she'd cook. But you see she used to come home at 12 o'clock from Whiteheads and we'd have to have we’ll say potted meat or brawn you know. If she’d been cooking the night before, and she used to do occasionally, she'd make a dinner the night before you see, and you’d have that. But it was more or less ready made because she hadn't time, I mean to come from Whiteheads, and look after four of us, you see.
No, quite. How about Sunday? Sunday would be different?
R- Oh Sunday was the day. Like I said do you know. It was usually potato pie and rice pudding you see? I mean, with her being at home all day she'd get up and put a potato pie in, and then after she'd made a potato pie you know, she'd be baking bread. See she baked bread on a Sunday and oven bottoms. And the thing was that, like Sunday was the highlight in as much as you got a breakfast .. occasionally used to get bacon, you see, occasionally you used to get bacon.
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R- And eggs, oh we used to get plenty of eggs.
Bacon, were it home fed or Irish roll or what?
R- Well it were .. if father had gone taking coal up some of the farms you see he used to get a bit of home fed but that were fatty. But he’d eat it, you know. But we used to get plenty of eggs, and I know we've had many an egg cut between two of us. And then of course you see, in Summer time when they became very cheap we used to get a whole one apiece. And mind you, when we’d one egg we'd eat umpteen slices of bread to it you know, dipping it in the yolk. Aye.
Yes aye.
R- Bread was a staple diet. And of course you see you used to get cabbage and vegetables as they were.
Aye, spuds, aye.
R- Aye, but we never got a lot of meat, not a steak or anything like that. We’d get sausage and the cheaper cuts. Yes.
That’s it aye. How about, well it's something that doesn’t strike people nowadays, the number of different sorts of butchers there used to be in the old days. Like there used to be pork butchers, there used to be ordinary butchers and then of course there used to be that marvellous institution, the frozen meat shop.
R- Oh yes, the Argentine Meat Company.
That's it. That's its aye.
R- Well, their meat were always cheaper you know than the ordinary butchers.
Yes. If your mother were buying meat where would she go? Would she buy it at an ordinary butcher or at the Argentine, frozen ...
R- Well, the thing is, as far as I can remember she always went to the ordinary butchers. When we got old enough to send on errands we always used to go to the ordinary butchers. But she always, like they had a kind of favourite butcher if you will. You know “Go to Bob Harry's, you get a better do than you get at Jimmy Holden’s” you know.
Aye, that's it, yes.
R- And then there were a couple of pork butchers. There was a firm called Cotterill’s and they were pork butchers of course and they used to have pies and sausages and black puddings. Now Cotterill’s came from Ramsbottom and they used to make a good brawn. Now three doors higher up were a German firm, a German family called Hornung. In point of fact father Hornung was imprisoned in the first world war you know.
Aye, alien, yes.
R- Right at the beginning.
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Yes, a lot of them.
R- But you know, because they were Germans you know, they used to gather round t'shop and ... And yet George, the son, he got medals for bravery in the British Army. And of course, you see, gradually they, you know, they worked their way back. But they were Germans and of course they used to have these German sausages and that kind of thing
Can you remember trouble about them, you know? Can you remember trouble about him?
R- Oh yes. Oh aye, I mean they had to shut up had Hornung’s. Until, as I say, George, and he’d another brother, and I think, I'm not so sure whether the other brother wasn't killed and as soon as he was killed it died down. Do you know what I mean, he were killed with the British Army. But I knew George personally and he was a character, you know he was a typical pork butcher, I mean he used to go killing pigs and all this kind of thing. He was a character was George. But there was, and then again you know, the thing is I can remember these parades coming up Bank Street you know, with a band, and these soldiers marching, ‘Kitchener wants you’ and all this kind of thing. In point of fact I had an uncle killed in 1916. Oh I remember very vividly, because I was called after him, I mean me middle name's William and he were called William Greenwood, and he was killed when he was 19 and he'd been in the Army. In point of fact he was in the Territorials before the war.
Yes. So he’d be the first to go.
R.- Well he was. And he was only 19 when he was killed, June 10th 1916.
Terrible thing the first world war, John.
R - Oh aye, yes.
Terrible. A lot worse than any of the others we've had for the people that were in it. I'm sure it was.
R- Oh yes. Ayes aye.
Anyway, what did you usually have for your tea?
R- Well, we’d have black pudding and peas, and I’ll tell you what used to be one of our favourite dishes, tripe and onions. You see the tripe dresser, who sold nothing else only tripe and black pudding and peas you know, when he was slicing his tripe up, if he'd have any bits he used to put then in a corner and we'd go and get two pennorth of tripe bits and two pound of onions, put them in the frying pan again over the fire and put some salt in, and that kind of thing and we used to have that. And .. on the other handy of course, occasionally, it'd be corned beef
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or something like that ready made. And like I say, the chip shop you know, we used to have a lot of chips.
How much were fish and chips then?
R- Oh well you used to get a pennorth of chips and then you got three ha’penny worth of chips and then you got two pennorth of chips and fish were twopence and a meat pie was twopence ha’penny, that’s two and a half old pence.
Would you say… No, I’ll not ask you like that, because that might just bias your answer. How about fish then? Were it all right?
R - Oh yes, yes. In point of fact I can remember there used to be a couple of fish stalls on Rawtenstall market. Now Rawtenstall market was open until nine o'clock at Saturday night then. And of course if the ... and the same with the butchers you see, they were open while nine o'clock. Now then if they had fish left, it got about ten to nine, quarter to nine and they’d, you know, put it up, “Give me a shilling for this!” you know to get rid of it. And oh, aye, dozens of times we've had fish. All day Sunday you know, they've got say a couple of shilling's worth and it's made umpteen meals because they wanted to get shut of it. Or on the other hand there used to be a couple of butchers, I can remember them very well on Rawtenstall market, who again, come half past eight .. mind you the market was the focal point of Saturday you see? And of course they did more business after tea than they did all day, although they were open all day they did more business after tea because when folks were working while twelve you know, they’d go home, do their cleaning up and then go to the market after tea. And these two butchers used to vie with one another for selling meat cheap. You see, and the thing is that I know me father's been down and me mother’s been down occasionally, and if there were no meat going cheap you had no dinner, you see? But this was it, and if you got a nice piece, you know, cheap, you were all right for meat.
Aye. Did you have supper before bed time?
R - No. Not in the early stages. You might have had a jam butty see, a jam butty, and a drop of milk, or even a drink of water. They never used to send you to bed with nothing, but at the same time you didn't get a supper like the type of thing today where you'll have a sandwich and that kind of thing.
That's it yes. Did the family have a garden or an allotment?
R- Oh no. Terraced houses.
Yes. So no hens, pigs, ducks or goats ... No?
R- No.
Did you have pudding every day?
R- Oh no.
Well, how often did you have a pudding?
R- About once a week. And sometimes not that.
That'd be rice pudding nearly sure would it?
R- Aye. Unless, as I say, mother had a change and she made beef puddings you know. I mean steak pudding. Used to roll the dough out, put your meat in, tied in a rag and boil it for hours. And then we'd have one of them and apple pudding, and boiled spuds you know? Oh a real feast. Aye.
Aye, aye I bet they still are. How much milk do you think your mother got a day?
R- About that I wouldn't know. I should certainly say I can always remember there being at least one pint.
What was it used for mainly?
Well tea. Yes. Mainly used for tea.
Yes. And what fruit did you eat?
R- Well, apples, oranges. Well, any fruit really, apples, oranges, pears.
How about vegetables, which one did you have most? Cabbage you'd have a lot of ...
R- Well, in season you see. I mean potatoes always, cabbage, swede, we used to eat a lot of swede, and of course dried peas and beans we used to get ...
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That's something. You've just mentioned dried peas. Now, I'm interrupting you there, John, you've mentioned dried peas and it just brings something to me mind that a lot of people don't realise now that, I mean, at one time like greengrocery and vegetables, there was a season for everything wasn't there?
R- Oh yes, oh yes.
I mean now you can get cabbage all the year round you know?
R- Oh aye. Well of course it is this deep freeze and that kind of thing ...
And stuff coming from abroad, I mean ...
R- Yes and then again they're more sophisticated in the methods of keeping it in as much as you can get ... Well, I mean tomatoes that won’t ripen, now I've some in my greenhouse, if I bring them in, put them in flannel, I can keep them while Christmas you see and they'll probably be ready round about five or six weeks from now. Well, I mean, there were no such methods of keeping you know. Where they've now got sophisticated methods of keeping food stuffs so that ... like there's no seasonal shortages but I still like dried peas and beans.
Oh well, I do.
R- And I’ll tell you another thing too that we used to have, and I forgot: to mention it, spare rib, you see?
Oh aye! Well…
R- I mean many a time me mother'd boil some peas with spare ribs or a ham shank you see? Now that used to be .. or brisket of beef, that used to be a fair do.
Aye, even a good marrowbone.
R- Oh aye. Oh well, now in winter time, I've mentioned the great two handled washing pan…
That’s it.
R- It used to be on the hob. Now in Barlass Street where we lived we had like an iron grid that used to fit up the side of the oven, of the boiler. And of course you see, if you wanted to put a pan on you pulled this grid down
Pulled it down, that's it.
R- And it rested so that you had a fire, a draft right underneath. Well, you used to put the two handle washing pan on there you see. And I’ll tell you another thing we used to do too, sheep’s heads. Get a sheep’s head from Jimmy, and of course you see you used to make broth.
Sheep’s head.
R- Jimmy’s.
Jimmy, aye.
R- Yes, sheep’s head, aye. You see you’d get carrots and peas and cabbage and barley, lentils ...
That's it. Split peas, aye…
R- And of course the thing is then you'd put a few suet dumplings in you know.
Aye. ‘Little Lads’.
R- And I've seen us live off that for about three days you know, because we'd made that much. Oh dear!
Aye. Can you, there is a list of foods here, I'll just read them out, and just tell me how often you had them or if you never had them, or anything like that. See what you make of them. Bananas?
R- Yes.
How often?
R- Well it just depends when they were in season and how dear they were. I mean we used to go round, I mean do you know, when they are going off a bit. They've got a bit ripe, well they sell them cheaper and we used to get a lot of them. Aye.
Whose were they, can you remember?
R - Oh well I couldn't tell you that, but Fyffe’s has been going donkeys years.
That’s it aye. Rabbit?
R- Oh we used to have rabbit, aye rabbit pie. A rabbit and a pound of shin of beef in a rabbit pie. That were good.
Where did the rabbit come from?
R- Well we used to buy them on the market. Aye.
Yes. Yes, that's it.
R- I mean there were no, you see the thing is that although there's quite a lot of rabbits and hares round here now, at one time everybody caught that many that they were scarce.
Kept them down. Yes. How about fried food John?
R- Fried food. Well as I say, we used to get bacon occasionally and sausages and such. But, like it wasn’t a regular thing, I mean we weren't one of them for bacon and egg breakfasts. No.
Fish.
R - Well as I say we used to have fish fairly regular. Because there used to be one type I can remember. It comes off the cod, you know when they have cut the head off there's a piece left that they always cut out. I've forgotten what they call them now. but my mother used to get them. They were cheap, and boil them, we used to have boiled fish.
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Yes. What other sort of fish can you think of that you used to have?
R- Oh, herrings and mackerel, cod, gurnets, we used to have gurnets but the exotic fish types like plaice, very very rare. Unless they were small dabs you know where you'd happen get about six for a bob. Then there were one apiece and the eldest got the biggest you know. Aye.
Cheese?
R- Yes we used to have cheese 'cause we always had to have a mousetrap. But yes we used to have cheese, but not a lot.
How did you have it usually, cooked or uncooked?
R- Oh uncooked. Unless of course again, say that it was a few days old you know, we used to have it under one of those glass cheese dishes, earthenware you know with a top on, and it were getting a bit dry. She'd get some onions, frying pan, cheese and onions.
That's it. Cow heel?
R - Oh yes, cow heel stew, cow heel and shin beef. Or again, cow heel and shin beef, you see.
Tripe.
R – Oh I used to have tripe regular. In point of fact, as a young man I used to do a little bit of P.T. you know, physical culture and of course you see tripe was supposed to be good for you and I had a standing order, this is when I was working mind you, for half a pound of tripe every night, for years.
Is that right?
R- Yes. And brown bread. Tripe and brown bread.
What sort of tripe, honeycomb, seam or what?
R- Oh, seam.
Seam?
Well I used to vary it. Well, it was nice thick seam. And the thing was that with it being a standing order, six days a week, I always used to get the pick if you see what I mean. Seam and some fat in you see. Or occasionally I'd tell him “I'll have some beef tripe tomorrow night you know, just for a change or rag as we used to call it. Aye, oh I liked tripe.
Trotters?
R- Oh yes trotters. Aye, we used to get trotters.
Black pudding?
R - Black pudding and peas, yes.
And you've already said you had a fair amount of eggs.
R- Oh aye, a fair do of eggs.
Where did that come from? Where did you get them from John?
R - Well usually they bought them on the market you see.
When they bought them on the market, would it he farmers that were selling them or would it be off like…
R – Oh, mainly farmers or, well, both types.
Tomatoes?
R – Yes, aye we used to have tomatoes in season.
Grapefruit?
R - Oh no, never.
Never.
R – Oranges yes, but not grapefruit.
Sheep’s head, of course .
R – Aye.
Did you ever have any tinned food?
R - We were nearly square from eating chunks.
Is that right?
R- Oh aye. I mean you used to get a flat tin of chunks for sixpence ha’penny and that would be a sweet at Sunday tea time.
Aye, pineapple chunks.
R - Pineapple chunks and Carnation milk.
That's it, yes.
R- Aye, I still like them.
Can you ever remember ever having any tinned food that was had?
R – Well, Let’s say this, I wouldn’t say so but yet I do remember on one occasion, when that uncle that was killed was on leave. In point of fact they were having a bit of what they call a farewell do for him you see? We weren’t invited, not as children, but me grandma sent some of the stuff up and we all suffered a bout of food poisoning. But let’s say this, mother was rather meticulous. If there was anything that was the least bit suspicious it was out. You know, I mean there were no fridges to keep the meat in you know. Well you got a joint at Saturday and cooked it and by Tuesday it were getting a bit rank you know. Either give it to the cat or throw it away.
How about what you drank. Tea?
R- Tea, or we used to drink a lot of cocoa. Tea, cocoa and a bit of coffee. But mainly tea or cocoa. Occasionally Ovaltine. But there used to be one, a malted milk, it were like the forerunner of Horlicks. Well, occasionally if we weren't well, you know if we were a bit off colour or something like that, she’d get some of that. But not as a regular do, it wouldn’t always be in the house.
SCG/22 July 2003
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