THIS TAPE HAS BEEN RECORDED ON JANUARY 6TH 1979 AT 13 WHITEHEAD STREET, RAWTENSTALL. THE INFORMANT IS JOHN GREENWOOD, FORMER MANAGER AT SPRING VALE MILL. THE INTERVIEWER IS STANLEY GRAHAM.
Right John, we'll kick off with the questions. This week we're starting with clothing. Did your mother make any of the family’s clothes?
R- No she never made any, like to make new garments, in as much as the time was all occupied in other things, then again we never had a sewing machine. She used to spend a lot of time patching you know? And darning stockings and that sort of thing, but as for making new things, no.
That's something you see little of nowadays, darning stockings, isn't it?
R- Well because these nylon stockings don't lend themselves to darning you know. In point of fact they don't lend themselves to mending.
You are quite right, they just seem, they go so thin you can read the paper through them don't they and that's it.
R - Well it's a point of, the thing is you see the yarns are such that they'll not bind. I mean to do a darn like
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my mother used to do with wool. You know, in and out, in and out, well the nylon of today wouldn't hold at all.
That's it. What did she use to darn on? Did she use a mushroom?
R- No, she used to darn on her fingers. You know, sort of put her fingers inside the stocking and then spread her fingers, and then you know, hold it like that.
That's it, aye.
R- And she had a peculiar way oft of sewing in as much as she used to be able somehow, I can't just like bring it to mind just how she did it but she used to hold that with her fingers and then sew it over the top you know because, I mean I always had tears or something like that in my pants, you know.
Yes that's it. Did you have any passed on clothes John?
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R - Oh yes, definitely, oh yes. The thing was that a new suit was an event, and .. I know, the chapel we went to, there were one or two families there, who, who were very generous, in as much as they had lads well actually younger than me but me being small in stature you see, their lads grew out of the things. Well one family in particular I can think of I used to get his clothes regular you see because he grew out of them before they were worn. To the extent that we used to wear them. Oh yes I mean, we used to get .. well they used to be quite, as I say the chapel, the people were rather generous to us. Like with having girls, you know there were, I had three sisters, and there was one lady who had a shop in Bank Street, that's the main street, and my mother used to go there, and she used to be very generous with her in as much as, you know, anything that was a little bit out of dates you know could be altered to suit. She used to let my mother have them for the girls but they were only the girl things you see. But of course we always used to wear clogs, and I know we never bought any new clogs, we always got clogs that had been, you know, the uppers were good, that somebody had sent in, and then they put new soles on, second hand clogs really but new soles you see. We always used to buy those. I mean, as for brand new clogs, you know, new uppers and new soles well not often, not often at all.
(5 min)(150)
How much would, if you went and bought, what you’d call a workaday suit, you know, a jacket and a pair of trousers for a lad then, how much would it cost?
R- Well, we'd get a reasonable one for .. as we’d say, 25 shillings which by present day money is £1.25 ...
That's it, yes.
R- You could get a man’s suit then for two guineas you see, made to measure. And I mean the argument was like with say boy’s clothes they took actually as much making as a man’s suit. But of course we always used to buy them off the peg, we never had any made to measure or anything like that you know. And I mean like school garb in those days, well, particularly as far as myself was concerned consisted of corduroy trousers, long stockings, clogs, and a jersey. And I can remember the time when we used to wear stand-up collars, you know they fastened on a stud with two little tabs and the tabs kept breaking off of course and the collar was no use.
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It’d he flapping about. And again we used to just wear a jersey with no collar at all.
When you say stand up collar John, do you mean what we’d call an Eton collar?
R- More or less yes, yes.
Yes. Aye that's it.
R- They were about three and a half inches in depth you know.
So presumably you'd be wearing a shirt as well?
R- Yes aye. Mainly cotton shirts, mainly cotton shirts. What they call in the trade Harvard stripes you know, they used to be white with blue stripes, and, and various dimensions you see. Aye, those were the kind of main things. We never wore vests or underpants, never wore them.
Yes. Now, there’s something there. Did you ever wear trousers, I've come across people talking about trousers that had detachable linings in them. Did you ever come across that?
R- No, I never had those detachable lining because you used to buy these cords and they were already lined, you know.
Yes, that's it yes. Now then, when did you go into long trousers?
R- Oh when I was about 14 or 15.
So that’d be after you went to work.
R- Yes.
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So you were going to work in short trousers.
R – Yes. Well what happened was I got some overalls, and you could certainly say that those were about the first long trousers I wore.
Aye, your overalls, when you went to work. Yes.
R- Yes.
And what happened to your old clothes?
R- Well, in the early years they were only fit for the rag cart and that was all. You see, because of having no brothers or anything like that, I mean if I'd grow out, I used to have to wear them until you know they couldn't be worn any more. I mean I've gone to school many, many times with patches on me backside you see and this was it. They were no use really when ...
Yes. Now when you say the rag cart, what do you mean by that John?
(10 min)
R- Well, the rag cart. There were quite a few fellows who did nothing else only get a donkey and cart, hired daily from the local marine stores, and in point of fact they used to keep fleets .. fleets, I nearly said herds of donkeys but they'd have about a dozen, probably 15 to 20 donkeys and carts and they used to hire them to these fellows who used to go round the streets tatting as we said. Calling out ‘Rag bone, rag bone.’ and they .. oh it was quite a trade. In point of fact there is still one chappie comes round here now in 1979 but he doesn't have a donkey and cart any more you know, they usually come round now with lorries, motor lorries.
That's it. And if you gave your old clothes to the rag chap would you get anything in return?
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R- Oh well, you used to get, as I'd mentioned before time on these tapes, you used to get salt or on the other hand scrubbing stones. You know, that’s the white, the door, doorstep. In point of fact some women went so far as to whiten all the flags in front of their house with these scrubbing stones aye.
I think 1 mentioned it to you before, there is one street somewhere in Ashton
under Lyne that is reputed, it’s said there that the women black leaded the tram lines and all. Now I don't know whether that's right or not, but 1 can imagine it.
R- Well I think I've mentioned before about the rhyme, a local rhyme that there is here.
No, you haven't told me that.
R- Have I not? Oh well, it was when the branch line from the tramways was run to a district that we call Lumb you see, which is a village up the top, up the valley and, and it runs in this wise: ‘When our Corporation first run trams to t’Lumb, folks were so suited they’d getten em to come, fellas were swanking and smoking Woodbines, and women set to and black leaded t’tram lines.' Of course Woodbines, you know, was a brand of cigarettes.
Yes, aye yes.
R- Oh and then it .. there was a really like, there was a song to it. I can’t sing otherwise I’d sing its tune but it, it had a chorus ‘I say oh I say….’ No it will not come back to me, probably if I sung it, but I mean I’m not going to sing it down this tape.
No, and I can't get you drunk and get you to sing it so….
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R- Oh no! I'm just trying to think how it went there (singing to the tune) When our Corporation first run trams to t’Lumb, folk were so suited they'd getten ‘em to come, fellahs were swanking and smoking Woodbines, and women set to and black leaded t’tram lines. Oh I say, oh I say, for the cream of society lived down that way.’
That's good enough John, good enough. What kind of hat did you wear?
R- Caps. I never wore any hat. Until of course you got to the adolescence stage and then you used to wear these… Oh well, the fashion at the time used to be to wear a bowler. All the lads used to, well young men, I’m speaking now of the 18 or twenty year olds, we all wore bowlers you know. And then there were a craze came in .. they were a round hat like a pork pie. We used to call them pork pies, there was a name for them that slips my mind, and then of course we used to wear these soft felt ones, in point of fact I have two upstairs now, with a little feather in the side You were quite dandies when you wore them.
Attaboys?
R- Well, they were Attaboys were those but I were just trying to think what the round pork pie one [was called], it was like a toreador hat, you know, the round ones that ... and, like the beaus of the village used to wear these you know. They used to think they were the cat's whiskers up and down in those and Oxford bags, you know, 22 inch trousers. Aye, Oxford bags.
Did you ever have a pair of oxford bags?
R- No. I mean I never was one, one of the boys as you might say.
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That's it. And what would your father wear for work, John?
R- Well, with my father of course, being an outdoor worker, you know he was a coal carter where they carried these bags on their backs. He always wore clogs, lace up clogs. And corduroys, long corduroys and of course coats, he wore any cast offs that he could get because with carrying these bags on their back ... I mean one thing he never did that I can remember on was, there used to be a kind of leather…
A back leather? Yes.
(15 min)
R – Aye, a back leather, he never wore a back leather. So of course with carrying these bags on his back he used to go through coats like nobody's business. I mean there used to be jumble sales and I know my mother used to go round, I'm sure she used to go to jumble sales, and see if she could get him coats because he used to go through them like nobody's business. But he had a regular round as you might say, of fellows who he knew if they'd any old coats they used to give them to him you see. And this is like how he used to keep up with coats, but his dress was a muffler round his neck which was a cotton square you know, printed, a muffler round his neck. Well, there used to be some silk squares when they came out, artificial silk rayon, but mainly a cotton square round his neck, tied in a knot you know, like a cravat style at the front, it wasn't just tied in a knot up to his neck like that in as much as it was just a half knot, he used to twist it round and then like use it as a kind of cravat. But that was his dress. And he used to have :a special one for week ends, I can't remember my father wearing a collar and tie regularly. I can't remember that at all because he was a bit of a rough and ready type.
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One thing about your father working, John. Nowadays a tremendous lot of outdoor workers, particularly in the building trade, if the weather is really bad, if it starts raining anything like that, they stop. What happened if your dad was out and it was a bad day? He’d have to keep going ...
R - Oh, they kept going. And then I've said before when we were talking about the family, he used to be absolutely wringing wet through and yet he'd come and sit in the chair in front of the fire and dry his clothes on him which, one of the things which I think contributed to his early demise. Oh aye, I mean oh they were out in all weathers, there was no such thing as being rained off.
Yes. And there's one thing then, that some people find very hard to realise now, was that there was almost no waterproof clothing.
R- Oh no. The thing is that there used to be Mackintoshes but they, when they first came out they were a kind of thin rubber but they'd had never have done for carting coal bags at all. No there was no waterproof clothing. I can remember Mackintoshes because they were named after Mackintosh you know, the Scotchman who brought them out but I mean they weren't a regular item of wet weather clothing. Because in those days of course again, you couldn't afford them. I mean if you'd one overcoat you were lucky.
They used to work on the principle that the heavier the coat the more rain it soaked up before it got through to you didn't they.
R- That's true aye.
They can get to be a weight, a heavy overcoat full of watery can’t they.
R - Yes. Well you see, referring back to the first world war, after the first world war there were quite a lot of khaki coats you know, left over from the war, and they sold them or on the other hand they
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used to give them you know, they used to bring them home with them say when they were discharged. And so that for quite a number of years after the war, first world war, there were a lot of these khaki long coats, great coats going you see, and of course the people who didn't need them ... well, I know my father wore one for many years, well not many, but quite a few years after the first world war and of course then they fizzled out. I mean there weren't the Army and Navy like there is today, you know these Army and Navy stores where they sell these surplus goods. But after the first world war you could see lets of khaki great coats being worn, you know. In the main they used to have to cut the buttons off, see, because the buttons were the kind of property of the Crown if you will. But I know my father wore a khaki great coat for a while after the first world war. And then again, after the second world war as you know you'd see lots of ...
The same thing again yes.
R- wearing….
Battledress, even battledress trousers, yes.
R- That's true yes.
When, when you were young, can you remember John, is it true to say that young children, I'm thinking of very young children here, just starting to walk you know, were boys and girls dressed the same?
R- Oh you were kept in petticoats you know for, until you were about three or four.
Yes, and when you came out of petticoats that was what they called breeching a lad that, wasn't it?
R- Breeching, that's right yes, aye.
Can you remember being in petticoats, you know, can you remember being breeched?
R- Yes. Well, let me say this, somewhere among our souvenirs there is a photograph of my eldest sister and myself, and I should say that I was about three or four, I should say three, holding my sister's hand. A photograph taken, and I had breeches on then and clogs, and a jersey. You know, you remember the jersey for the children. And the earliest recollection of a photograph that I know of, but I would be about three, I was a little toddler, bow legged of course you know, pigeon toed ...
Why do you say ‘bow legged of course’?
R- Well in those days there was a lot of bow legged children born ... when I say bow legged I mean in as much as the ... not properly bowed, you kind of grew out of it, but they tell me, like, if you can't put your knees together when you stand up straight, you are bow legged. I don’t know how true this is. Well I couldn't put my knees together. I don’t knew whether I can do now or not .... not quite.
Not quite, no, that's it. Aye well, the definition in Yorkshire is whether you can stop a pig in a ginnel!
R- Oh well that, aye, that was a common expression, but .. but I mean the thing is that there used to be a lot of people who were bow legged in those days. When a say a lot, far more than you see today. I mean today of course if a child has a tendency to be bow legged they put correctors on don't they. But I mean I had a bow legged lady who worked for me and quite honestly she was really bow legged, she is alive today butt you know and her legs go out in the shape of a bow.
Almost in a circle, yes.
R- She couldn't even hold a football between her knees you see. But of course they used to say that people who lived in Rossendale were all bow legged because there were that many hills to climb. You know, if you went up a street, one of those steep streets it made you bow legged. That was one of the theories anyway. Aye.
What did your mother wear for housework?
R- Well, I can go further back than my mother, I can go back to my grandmother.
Yes, well do that then.
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R- Because they used to wear blouses. I can nearly give you the list of clothes that they wore. They used to wear, for underwear, corsets, or else they used to call them stays with, they were about what, 15 inches long with a great big lace and they used to pull this lace up you know to tighten them and give them a figure. They used to wear stays and bloomers and long stockings, with bite of string for garters and they wore no such things as suspenders you know. And then of course they used to wear button up shoes, these were shoes with about nine to twelve inch tops on and down one side there was a row of buttons and you used to have a button hook to fasten these which was a piece of wire bent at the end. You used to put the button book through the eyelet on the other side of the shoe and you’d pull the button through, aye. Grandmother used to wear them. Mind you, they used to wear clogs for work.
Yes. What would the stockings be made of John?
(25 min)
R- Oh they were, well again, it depended on the kind of status because there was a saying I can remember now, people used to say ‘Bless thy old cotton socks’ you see. You used to get wool, black wool. That was a common saying was 'bless thy old cotton socks.’ Which meant that they were made of cotton but they were made of wool mainly. And then of course I can remember, I can remember silk stockings coming in which were the artificial silk way back in the, oh it’d be in the 1920s when they come in did rayon stockings and of course the flashy dames used to wear them. You know, they were bold uns as my mother used to say, meaning bold you see.
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That's it.
R- And then of course you got the silk stockings came in with the, roundabout the 1920s with the, when the Charleston came in and they use to wear right short frocks you know, to do the Charleston and these silk stockings you know. And I can remember nylons coming in. Nylons came in during the end of the first
world war ‘cause there used to be a black market in nylons and they were…
First world war?
R - Second world war, I beg your pardon, second world war. But they used to come in and there used to be a black market at £1 a pair which, when you were working all week for about £3, I was supposed to be a foreman and I was getting about three guineas a week. At a pound a pair when they first came in, yes. But in my younger days it was all wool. Wool and bloomers.
That's it. Your grandmother, would she wear, she'd wear the long skirts down to the ground, yes?
R- Oh definitely, yes, aye. Aye, nearly down to her ankles. Oh yes they all wore long skirts, very much so. My mother used to wear them as well.
Yes.
R- Oh yes, it wasn't until the, you know, the skirts started to get really short that shall I say, they cut out the long trailing skirts.
And yet would it be true to say that the older end, the older people would still be going round in the old .. you know in the long skirt, they wouldn't shorten the skirts. Did the old people stick to the long skirts?
R- Oh yes. Aye my grandmother had long skirts up to the time she died. In point of fact we have a photograph of me mother's wedding photograph and they all wore these great long skirts, I mean me mother and the bridesmaid, there were only four of them on the photograph, but the other bridesmaid had a great long skirt down to her ankles, yes.
And the shawl John, how….
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R- Oh well, that was regular, me mother wore a shawl, me grandmother wore a shawl, me sisters wore a shawl right up until the shawls actually went out, I can't tell you just what time but I think it was the second world war when the shawls .. But I was going to say I'm not so sure whether my sisters still have a shawl, you know, that you used to wear. And they were like a woollen, they were made of wool in the main, like a sheet, and they used to fold it over to the corners and made it like a triangular shape and then they used to pull that round them you see, pulled the broad part over their head, put their arms akimbo in the tails, and that was it you see. I mean you know, they used to wrap their arms round inside the shawl, pull it up to hold it of course and then again there used to be some rather elaborate fasteners. I mean, I can remember my mother having safety pins to fasten it under her chin, and at the same time I can remember her having brooches. You see there used to be rather fancy brooches. When I say elaborate, elaborate designs, you know. She had one, and I think my sisters still have it, which was a Wedgwood style of a brooch.
(30 min)
That was like a cameo brooch, that's it yes.
R- Cameo, that's the word I was after, aye, cameos. They’d quite a few, you know with these ladies heads on and great big, happen about two inches in length and with a pin on the back.
John, one thing about that. Have you ever seen an apron hook?
R- An apron hook? Now then…
It's almost like, they are made of brass. It's almost like a button shaped in any shape you wanted. I have some at home and they are a heart or a star, or a circle, and on the back the pin comes straight out of the back of this fairly large button, bends round at a right angle and there is a hook on the end. Now I got them in an old ironmonger’s shop, he was going out of business and he sold me the lot for ten bob and there was a boxful. I’ll bring you one of them, I'll let you have one.
R- Oh no I've never seen one of those that I could remember...
No. Well I'd never come across them. The only reason that makes me think they are an apron hook .. 1 think what they were used for was if you were wearing a fent in the mill, you just put the brat, you know, a brat as they said …
R- Yes, not brat [child]
Just push the hook through one corner of it and pull it up till it was up to the button, and then just hook the hook into the other end [of the fent or brat] to hold it round your waist . And it said on the box, it's in the original box, 'Apron hooks'. They were a penny each. Now it just makes me wonder, when
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you are on about the shawl, it's just dawned on me, I wonder if they were ever used for the shawls as well you see, you know, under the neck, they'd be just as handy for doing that, just hooking a shawl together under your neck.
R- Well I couldn't tell you really about that, and probably if I saw one I'd be able to say yea or nay, whether I had seen one or not, but ..
I'll bring you one. I’ll bring you one and give it you, because I have a box full. I’ll bring you one, because they are a curious little thing. And as I say, I’ve never come across anybody who has seen one used, they must be very old.
R- Aye. Aye, I can't say that I can remember it no.
I’ll do that. I’ll bring you one. Now would your mother wear anything different at week end than she did during the week?
R- Oh yes. Well, when she could afford them. Let's say this, we all had what we called Sunday clothes you see. Now, Sunday clothes were these that were put on say to go to Sunday school and the Chapel and then if they were, when they were really new, if they had been bought new you used to have to take them off after and go into your week day clothes. And my mother used to have you know, a Sunday hat, one of these great big things, floppy you know with .. they used to have fruit on and that kind of thing in those days, you know feathers in. But we had Sunday clothes when we could afford them. Like I can remember having a pair of shoes, but I used to have to take them off when I had been to Sunday school or church and put me clogs on. You know, to preserve them, because you never knew when you were going to get another lot.
And you didn't play football on the way home either.
R- Oh no. Well, let me say this, that the thing is a ball was rather a luxury, because childish games, we used to play what they called tin in the ring, you just draw a ring on the pavement, put a tin in, and then somebody’d give the tin a kick, and you'd go and hide and whoever was what we used to call ‘it’ in other words the catcher, they used to have to come and find you then. And if he saw you, he’d shout your name out and then he’d run back and touch the tin you see and then you had to stand by until he’d got the lot. But if on the other hand, somebody sneaked up and give the tin a kick out of the ring everybody fled again to hide.
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This was one of the early games, you see. And I mean you hadn't to kick the tin with your shoes and nor had you to go climbing, I mean the thing is that my mother was .. I can remember these little incidents, my mother would know we'd been climbing, “You always knock your clog noses out you see with climbing, well you'll go and scrape all the nose off your shoes and then you’ve had it”. In other words you couldn't get a new pair so you never went, you know, climbing walls, I mean as lads do, I mean we used to go climbing.
When your mother was .. if she was doing her housework, and she went out shopping or had occasion to go out of the house, actually down the street you know and into the town for some reasons, would she alter her dress before she went out, you know, or would she go exactly as she was.
Well again, it just depends. Say, like, through the week she'd go down like she was you know, put her shawl on, but if it was say Saturday and she was going round the market, and my mother had more than one shawl you see. Again, one was kept for best could one say, she never wore a shawl on a Sunday except say she was going into one of the neighbours or something like that. But to go out, oh no she'd put her
hat on, and her coat.
How about during the day, she was just doing her normal house work and she went to the shop. Would she keep her apron on?
R- Oh yes. But the thing is, another little thought strikes me that when she wore a shawl she very rarely wore a coat. Because she had this long skirt on and of course she put the shawl on the top. Well, the thing is that if she was going out at weekend the shawl went by the board and she put a hat and coat on. But if she was running an errand or anything like that she’d keep her apron on unless it was soiled you see and then she’d put a clean one on. I mean she had a series of these aprons or brats as they called them.
That's it yes. Did she buy them or make them John.
R- Oh she bought them, as I say we had no sewing machine and then again I mean, like I've explained to you already, her time was very limited for such things as sewing clothes or sitting down.
Would it be what we call an apron now, with a piece over the breast, as well as a piece that went from the waist down to the ground or would it just be from the waist down the front of the skirt.
R- Well they were, they were mainly waist aprons, they didn’t wear the others, they had no bibs on. The thing was that like at Sunday she’d have one but with a bib on, you know a fancy one that went over her head you know, and brightly coloured and printed. You know what I mean. There used to be quite a collection of aprons, I mean all my sisters had them as well you see, these little aprons with bibs on.
Have you ever seen your mother tuck the corner, or corners of her apron into her waistband?
R- Oh yes, oh aye. Aye oh quite honestly, well, me grandmother particularly, she always had an apron and I can remember when she used to go to the shop, she'd pick her apron up and tuck it in right round her waist, right round her waist oh aye grandma did aye.
Yes. Now what do you think was the idea of that? It interests me this because I've come across this before, obviously.
R- Well now, that brings another little occasion to mind. If it’s been a nice day, say my grandmother particularly, I mean she'd gather up her apron, and if she was going to the shop she’d put the stuff in to carry it. You see she'd hold her apron like that ... screw the ends up and use it as a kind of bag and put the stuff in. But I don't know what the object was unless it was .. they didn't want to take their apron off but they used to tuck it in aye.
I've come across that before and it seems to me to be an interesting little point.
R - I’ll tell you what I used to see, I can remember when I worked at the mill, I used to go into the shed and you'd see the weaver with her apron, and they used to use it like that to carrying their bobbins you know. They'd lift it up and put the bobbins they'd have to carry, they put the bobbins in to carry them and then they'd, you know, carry it back to the loom.
I've still seen them, I've seen them do that at Bancroft yes, still, yes.
R- Yes.
And funnily enough the lad that always does that, one young fellow in particular that always does that, he is the warehouse man, and being the engineer I was, of course, in charge of the toilet rolls, and he was in charge of the toilet, and he used to come down about once a week for eight toilet rolls and he always picked the corners of his brat up and I just dropped eight toilet rolls in, every time.
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R- No, it strikes me as funny is being a lavatory engineer.
1 could never understand why the engineer was in charge of toilet rolls and Vim!
R- Let, let me say this, when I was a mill manager I was in charge of toilet rolls.
Aye, they've always been highly prized things haven't they, toilet rolls.
R- Well the point was that I used to find we had these patent dispensers on but there was always those who could get inside and nick the toilet rolls.
Oh they're portable, they're portable aren't they, toilet rolls.
R- Oh they are indeed. Aye.
Especially now they are 15p each John.
R- Aye.
Aye. Oh we've gone through some.
R- I mean the thing was you know that when we were young there were no such thing as toilet rolls, you always used newspaper.
(40 min)
That's it, cut into squares and hung up on a piece of string.
R- Oh I've cut many a thousand up into squares and put them on a bit of string; and hung them on a nail in the toilet.
Aye.
That's it yes. Did your father ever mend your family shoes?
R - No. No, he never did. There was a time when he used to, well let's say this I mean we wore clogs more than shoes, he used to put irons on, and of course there was an art in putting irons on clogs. More than once had these split you know, the clog, and I've had to take it to the cloggers you know to put it right and he'd look at it “Your father’s been putting irons on here? Well, tell him he can mend it now.” It wanted a new sole in you see on to the clog. He’d split them you know. I mean because they had .. you see, when they put these nails in and they took the irons off they used to put little plugs in you know, like match sticks. Do you remember?
That's it, that's it. I've a box full at home John.
R- Oh well. This is it you see. And of course you see they used to rap them in and the time came when of course they couldn't get any more in and they used to split the wood. Or father went against the grain, I mean there was an art in clogging. I mean putting the nail in with the grain, you know. ‘Cause if you used to put them in ... Well I mean you couldn't really put them in against the grain, in as much as you know how they were tapered, they weren't round nails, they were flat nails ...
That's it.
R- And of course they'd a fairly steep taper on, and of course they the irons you know were grooved and the head of the nail had to fit in the groove. Well many a time, I mean the clogger chappie, he always bent the iron to the shape of the sole, you see. Whereas when father put them on, you know it was just a case of getting a clog iron, you can buy them you know, I mean there were shops that sold .. well, the hardware shop used to sell clog irons and heel irons, and of course you see the thing is that pa used to plank them on, whereas the clogger, he'd build the heel up with a bit of leather if it wasn’t even you see.
Did you ever have your clogs double ironed?
R- No, no, never double ironed. But I always remember that I used to go through a set of irons in a week. I mean, I was fairly heavy on my feet and then again as lads you know we used to, when we had our clogs newly ironed, we used to go making sparks off flags, in as much as you could take a run and hit the flag with the side of your clog, and of course the metal on the stone would make a spark.
Did you ever come across Colne irons, heavy irons?
R - No no, they were all, there used to be some. I can remember this, there used to be a stall in the market, and he sold all kinds of nails, fancy nails and all this apparatus for what you might call the do it yourself shop of today. And he had all different types of irons because like the quarry men, they used to have heavy irons but I can remember what you say when the double irons is like, if it was on the sole there’d be an outer one and then an inner one. Yes, I can remember those but I never had them, no.
When I wore clogs on milk pick up and on cattle wagons I always double ironed them, because they lasted longer you know.
R- The more iron ... yes.
You had more iron to go at, of course it made them heavier. And it were a good thing for the heels and all. How many outfits of clothes do you think you’d ever have at one time?
R- Two, one for school and one for Sunday. Many times only one.
That's it. And how often did you have clean clothes, do you know that? A clean shirt?
R - Oh every week.
Every week.
R- Oh yes. Oh well, like I've said you know, the ritual was bath night was Friday night. Well when you'd had a bath of course you always put a clean shirt on and that had to last you a week, you see. And in those days you know the shirts hadn’t collars attached. I'm speaking now of about what, 1920, the collars were unattached so you could get a clean collar and put it on a shirt that you'd had on for days you see. You could put a clean collar on yes.
(1000)
That's it. Something that often strikes me John nowadays is, obviously I am not as old as you but I can remember during the war itself there were no such things in those days as these deodorants and God knows what that people use. We only had one bath a week, and so did the adults you know, the people that we were living with. Now I can never remember any body smells, I can never ever remember anybody smelling unless they came from what we called, you know, a right dirty family, you know, from down…
(45 min)
R- Well the thing was you know, in those days soap wasn't as sophisticated as it is today and in point of fact I think that there was more actual, what you might call soap. For the want of a better expression soap was better in those days, it wasn't perfumed and there wasn't a lot of these synthetic fatty acids and what have you in it. It was pure soap and it had a stronger effect of keeping down body smell. I mean when you had been washed with carbolic you see, carbolic, you'd had a wash and you felt a lot fresher, you felt a lot fresher. And I think this was one of the things why and again there's another aspect, and that is that clothing was a lot heavier and in as much as the smell didn't get out, whereas today they are all sleeveless and open necks and what have you.
Another little theory I have myself, John, I don't know whether you’d agree with it is that then clothes were all natural fibres, and I think that makes a difference.
R- Oh yes. Very true, very true. Well let's say this, I mean, knowing a little bit about fibres, you get these fibres today that are non-hygroscopic, in other words they don't absorb sweat you see and so it's retained on your body and it smells.
SCG/20 August 2003
7,308 words.