THIS TAPE HAS BEEN RECORDED ON JANUARY 13TH 1979 AT 13 WHITEHEAD STREET, RAWTENSTALL. THE INFORMANT IS JOHN GREENWOOD, FORMER MANAGER AT SPRING VALE MILL. THE INTERVIEWER IS STANLEY GRAHAM.
Have you ever beard of anybody being sewn in for the winter?
R - Sewn in?
Yes.
R- I'm not just clear what you mean by it.
No. Well to tell you the truth, I'm not right clear about it but evidently at one time it was quite common for people to sew the children into their clothes for the winter and leave them in the same clothes all winter.
R- Oh, I've never heard of that.
Now what the idea was I don't know, to keep them warm I suppose but evidently it was quite common.
R- Never heard of that at all. Never heard of that at all. No.
Did your mother ever belong to a saving club for clothing, you know, boots…
R- Oh yes. Aye, I mean it was quite common, I mean, there was one particular club that she always was in known as the Blackburn Clothing Club, and the chappie who came round was a very nice chappie and very understanding. You know what I mean. When the weeks came that she couldn't pay he wasn't one of these who came round hounding but we had always had cheques in as much as if somebody would, well myself or the
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children, or even herself or father wanted new clothes, she’d get a cheque and then you'd pay it off the equivalent of a shilling per pound per week. And this was the thing, we always had cheques and a list of shops that you could go to.
Yes, so how exactly did the system work John?
R - Well, it worked this way, that the chappie come round with, you know he came round, and when you wanted a cheque you went to him and he gave you a paper, the equivalent of what you wanted. He’d let you have it according to what he thought you could pay. I mean ours used to average about say three pounds a time. And then they had a list of shops that you could go to and I take it that these people paid a commission to the Clothing Company, Club. And if you got a cheque say for three pounds you'd pay three shillings a week for about 22 or 23 weeks. There was an extended period on it, like that was their commission for collecting and so on and so forth. And they, as I say they also got a rake off from the shops, because it runs in my mind that if the shop keepers knew you were coming with a cheque there was always a bit extra put on. Not in all cases, I mean, but I've heard of this happening, that if you went with a clothing club cheque and the thing was say £1-10 shillings as it was it would then go up to about £1.15shillings.
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Yes, I’ve heard that before actually John. I’ve heard that from other people. But did you ever come across these travelling tailors.
R- Oh yes. Well round here they used to call them Scotchmen, why they called them Scotchmen I don't know, because in most cases they were Jews.
That's interesting because in Barnoldswick they used to call them Scotchmen and all.
R – Aye, they always called them Scotchmen, but they were Jews. And the thing is that they, it's in similar vein to the clothing club cheque. They would come down, provide you with clothes and then you'd pay for them afterwards. Or on the other hand they'd come round, and they'd call regularly whether you had anything with them or not so that you had a credit balance if you wanted something, you see they'd call every week. Or on the other hand they used to come round with bags, you know, carrying their wares or samples and they’d show you what they had and then of course you'd make your selection and you’d pay for it on the nail if you could afford it. And this was .. oh aye they were Scotchmen, they came round.
(5 min) (150)
So, in other words, it was possible to sit in your house say on a Friday night, get measured for a suit and the following Friday night have it delivered.
R- That’s true, that's true yes. And then you had so many weeks to pay for it, or on the other hand you could pay cash. If you paid cash you know, you always got that little bit of discount. And I might say that these fellows, the material that they sold, they were fair quality. Mind you we never had a lot to do with Scotchmen, my mother preferred the Clothing Club cheques where she could kind of go and see what she wanted and select because they had a long list of shops, and they'd all types
of shops, you see. I mean you could get a new suite or you could get clothes, not so much food stuff but material things you know, watches or household utensils aye. Aye they’d a long list of shops, particularly the Blackburn one because it was very popular and the chap who was called Thornley, I can see him now, a little squat chap, similar to myself but very, very nice. You know I mean he wasn't one of them domineering types who tried to force things on to you.
Were they all nice?
R- Oh well, I wouldn't say that, I wouldn't say that because some of the people who used to come round, particularly insurance blokes you know, as they were used to call them, the slang name was club-moochers or body-snatchers. Some of those were rather aggressive you know, wanting you to take out policies and this kind of thing, but…
No, you hear sometimes, like tally-men as they call them, you know, bad name like, some of them didn't they?
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R - Oh well, yes. They used to come round and they were more or less confidence tricksters were a lot of them you know. They’d sell you this, I can remember one time somebody coming round selling books, and they more or less coerced my mother into buying one and of course at that time I was very interested in reading. I can remember it now “Our day in the Light of Salvation” one was called and they were about three quid which was a lot of money you know. It represented a week's wages in those days. And I read the books through and my word they were way out. Aye, they were religious books you see and of course mother being a religious person, I'm speaking now after my father died you see, and mother being a religious person, thought they were a help in spiritual affairs but oh, they were really way out. I read them, I think there were only me that did, they were hard back, gilt-edged and all this kind of thing aye.
We talked on the last tape about the kind of clothes that your father wore for work.
R- Yes.
In that job would he have a foreman or just a boss.
R- Well, there was just a boss you know, the thing is that the owner, they were a one man business, small business. In point of fact he had four horses and four men worked for him.
Now, in what way would your dad's clothing differ from what the boss wore?
R- Oh yes, aye. The boss was always dressed up, he wasn't, he ran the office and you know did the ordering and that kind of thing. Oh aye the boss were always dressed up where father's in his clogs and rough jackets you know. The only time father was anything, any bit like the boss was if they were going on a flitting you see because they did furniture removing as well. And the thing is of course they went a little bit more dressed up than what they did when they were coal bagging. Well, you can understand that, I mean shovelling coal, you know, it’d be dry coal dust, I know he used to come home looking like one of the Black and White Minstrels at times particularly at summer time.
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Aye, I see. If they were doing a flitting did they do it on the open cart, or did they have a box van to put on the cart?
R - Oh no, no open carts, always the box van. Yes, aye and the thing is you see that if they were doing a big jaunt… For instance I once remember him telling a tale, do you want me to tell you this?
Yes certainly John.
R - Well, they were taking a flitting, that's a removal for the uninitiated, from Rawtenstall to St Annes because there were, in St Annes there were a lot of Rossendale people, they more or less founded St Annes did people from Rossendale. And they were doing this flitting to St Annes and it was a case of having four horses because the [box was so heavy]. And they went through the night you know, they loaded it up through the day, and then they went overnight. And the thing is they got to Preston to the Halfpenny bridge, the brew you know, [brew is dialect for a steep hill] and my father was driving. One chap was just inside having a rest, and they, you know they'd have four horses taking it up Halfpenny Bridge because it was a very big box van. And he was driving, and as they were going up Halfpenny Brew as it's called, do you know it as Halfpenny Brew? Well they were going up Halfpenny Brew, I believe they called it that because at one time you had to pay a toll to go through, a halfpenny, but as they were going up he saw something coming towards him you see, dressed in white. And as it came nearer it was a woman in her nightdress with her arms up, sleepwalking. And, if you go up Halfpenny Brew on your left hand-side as you're going up you'll see a stile, going down towards the river bank. And this woman came towards him, totally asleep, and actually went down this stile down the steps, how she knew, she must have been familiar with it. But why I tell you this, he said Them horses went up the hill - he says - at some pace
you know, because being dark they thought it was a ghost. Because you know they'd just passed Samlesbury Hall which is supposed to be haunted. But the conclusion to this was that not long ago when the late Billy Cotton the band leader, was writing his reminiscences in one of the Sunday papers he mentioned that one of the strangest experiences he had was when he was at Preston, and he was staying somewhere, they were moving on during the night, and the police stopped them and asked them if they'd seen a lady sleep-walking and actually they joined in the hunt for her. Now I had heard all this tale donkeys years before from me father, and he said they found her down by the river side. And it was like, very coincidental.
Aye, that's it.
R- But I had heard this tale from me father donkeys years before. So I mean, it was quite true what he said.
Yes aye. Well that was nice that because it bore out what your father said anyway.
R – That’s right.
... as well as bearing out what Billy Cotton said.
R- When I read it in the Sunday paper I thought well, I'll go to me tea! Here is proof of what my father had told me donkeys years before about this woman. He said them horses went up that brew like shot out of a gun, scared to death.
What sort of clothes would your dad's boss wear? You know, normal dress.
R- Well of course he always had the suit and I can see him now, one of these little stiff collars you know, about an inch and a quarter wide, with a tie on, that's the type. The little stiff collar and a suit and of course he always wore a trilby hat.
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Trilby?
R- Yes. Aye, whereas father wore a cap, always wore a cap, the boss always wore a trilby. And he lived in what was a big house to us you see?
Yes, that's it. And of course the suit would always have waistcoat in them days?
R - Pardon?
The suit would always have a waistcoat in them days.
R - Oh always aye, and a watch chain you know, to dress the front. Yes.
Aye. Hung across the bay window. Aye.
(15 min)
R- Aye. It's a funny thing is that, you know. But he had a son who went to the first world wary and this son, he always used to send me personally what they called field cards. And they were like postcards and on it there were, they were printed cards with such things as "I am quite well" and like no indication of where they were or anything like that, but they were printed answers and they used to strike out which weren't applicable. And I think somewhere among my souvenirs I still have one. Well, the lad came home after the first world war and he died within 18 months of it. It was a very sad blow to him was that, to the boss.
Yes. What was his name again the fellow that ...
R – Roland. Well this lad was called Roland Barrett ...
Yes, but the other ...
R - ... and the boss was called James Barrett
James Barrett, that's it, aye.
R- Yes. Talking about James Barrett, at the bottom here is a furniture depository and I happened to be talking to one of the fellows one time, only recently, in recent times. And we were just having a little chat about furniture removing and I happened to say that my father did this, you know, 60 years ago and he said who did he work for? And I told him, James Barrett. And lo and behold he went into the place and brought out a picture of the big box van. Aye, at the bottom here aye, James Barrett's box van. And actually it's the one…
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I mean I remember the occasion, they used to have carnivals in the town, and Barrett was the Mayor actually, of the town, he was a Liberal. And it was a photograph of his van in the procession. Of course he had this picture, I can remember it now, it used to be in his office.
When did they have the carnival?
R- Where?
When?
R- When, it was always on a Saturday afternoon.
What would that be, June or July holiday times were it?
R- Oh yes, usually June I think, round about June, middle of June. It wasn't a holiday time like, it was a special event and the last one was when, I was, how old would I be, about 13. Because I was actually working then. Well I was taking papers, that was it, I was taking papers I wasn't working. And the chappie that I took papers for was a comedian you know, comedian entertainer. He had a fair voice and he used to go round because there was a carnival king a carnival queen- they were both men of course - and then there were two jesters. Well, my boss was one of the jesters because while it was on he asked me to go and help his wife in the shop you see, to keep the business going, while he was doing his stuff. So it started at dinner time well you know, just after dinner and it went on till about nine o'clock at night you know. They had this carnival procession, and then they used to go round the market you know, the king and queen and the jesters and all the retinue, and knighting various stall holders on what they had. They didn't have a sword, they had a bladder, an ox bladder blown up you know “I dub thee” Bonk Bonk! I can remember it now, aye.
How would you say clothes changed after the first world war John?
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R- Oh they changed very rapidly. I can remember the time when we went to school like, we had these cord pants and they used to have buttons just below the knee, you know, about three buttons. Well, those went out and the wider legs came in. Now, we are on about after the first world war? Well, the wider legs came in and of course the, now, just let me think ... well, instead of having like long stockings that came part way up to your thigh you got them up to your knee. And then there were the types of caps and hats, they altered, and of course collars. Whereas when I went to school we used to have these, as I've mentioned before, these collars about two and a half inches wide, well soft collars came in you know, where you used to have a stud hole at the back of your shirt, and tin studs at the front, and you used to put a soft collar on. And well this was one of the things. I was just trying to think, the long skirts went out you know, they used to wear skirts nearly down to their ankles and the elderly ladies did but like the young flappers, you got into the Charleston era, round about 1920, where there were really short skirts and you know the thing is then that the ladies showed their legs were and what was it, the flapper era or something like that.
What kind of clothes were you wearing in the 1920s?
R- Well, the thing is that of course when you started work and the family finances improved, naturally your dress style altered. But for work I used to weary in the main just overalls, no pants underneath because it was always warm in the mill you know. A shirt, no collar or tie, I mean an open neck shirt, and just a pair of denim overalls. Of course at Sunday I used to have a suit, and when you got to the age when you were thinking you were growing up you wanted better things. As you got more affluent, you got more money, you could have a suit for nights and a suit for Sundays, you know, a special suit. I wasn't one for trying to keep up with fashion. I mean I used to wear a bowler, all lads wore bowlers, but then you got to Oxford Bags and pork pie hats came in, well I never went in for those, but instead of a bowler I went on to a soft Trilby and double breasted suits came in and waistcoats, well you used to always wear a waistcoat, and then waistcoats started to drop out, but more so after the second world war waistcoats dropped out. But like the fashions changed tremendously and they kept changing, head gear particularly. At one time you used to see people with straw hats, well those went out altogether or boaters as they were called, those went out altogether. And even the old fellows used to wear Panamas, well those went out when it was sunshine but I mean the cap, the cloth cap has kept its style all the way through. I mean right, in the whole of my lifetime because caps differ very little now in shape and type as to what they were then. They are a bit more sophisticated, I mean the materials have altered with the advent of man made fibres but the style, they just simply fit round and drop over the back of your head with a neb on.
Would you think it was true to say that fashions as such were more stable before the first world war than they were after. When I say more stable, was there more movement in fashion after the first world war than there was before?
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R- Oh definitely yes, oh definitely yes. The thing is that, for instance gingham, which is a type of fabric, was very popular before the war you know blue and white checks. Well after the first world war it slowly started to die out, and you got, with the increased knowledge of printing and printing techniques, you started to get printed pinafores instead of gingham. And with the increase of printing techniques, and I'll not say weaving techniques, because 1 mean the same principles apply, but designing took tremendous strides as far as they the decoration of fabrics, and even wallpapers and all that kind of thing followed the trend.
Would you say that increase in affluence had any bearing on it as well?
R- Oh yes, oh yes, but now I must be very careful because during this period in the post-war period of course we had general strikes. We had a strike in 192l when the miners came out, there was a strike in 1926, the general strike, 1931 and 1937 and whilst the affluence shall we say built up to that period and then there was a complete drop because people just hadn't [got money] because of the general strike of 1926 .. yes 1926. I’d be 17 years old, well all that I got was 7/6d a week from the Union, there was no Social Security or anything like that. 7/6d a week, and of course…
Right John. We'll go straight into the next one now. Now the next section of questions is, I like this section, 'Family life in the home'. Now what we are talking about again now is when you were all living at home together you know, your first memories at home. Did everyone sit down for the meals together?
R - Oh no. As we've said before, we used to stand at the table. Father and mother sat down but as children we stood at the table. In point of fact we stood at the table up to, I should say being what, nine or ten year old, as long as that.
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What were the reasons for that John, any idea?
R- Well I don't really know because we had chairs but whether it was because the .. you know, you could just stand there and eat. And the children, let's see there were three of us, four of us so whether to put six chairs round the table was a little bit inconvenient. But there were chairs for everybody in as much, when I say chairs
for everybody, it was like a living room come dining room, and you got the two big rocking chairs and the sofa, there wasn’t a lot of room for stand chairs. And you couldn't pull the rocking chairs up to the table you see, so mother and father had two stand chairs, and usually there were about four to six stand chairs in a set. I don't know why really. In point of fact we had a stool under the table and we used to argue whose turn it was to sit on the stool.
Oh, you did get turns at sitting on the stool!
R- Oh we did get turns at sitting on the stool, yes.
Aye. Would you say that there was an element of, do you think there was an element of discipline in it?
R- Could be, could be, because let me say this, both the discipline in the home, and particularly at the table, was very strict, as far as my mother was concerned. Me father didn't bother so much like, it were me mother’s job to bring the children up. And we never had to leave the table until we'd said grace you know? “Thank God for a good tea. Please may I leave the table”
Aye, that’s it.
R- And it's a funny thing but 1 still say “Thank God for that” when I've had a meal now. And this is the result of this early training. and the thing is there was no such thing as wandering away from tie table unless there was some specific cause. For instance if mother said go and fetch something. But once you were at the table you were at the table, because you know how you are when you are children, you get a bit
awkward and if you went away from the table that was it, you'd finished, you couldn't come back, whether you had your meal or not you know. Whether you had finished it, but this was it. Oh yes, discipline in the home was very strict.
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Now about, let's just stick to the table itself just for a minute John and then we’ll go on to general discipline. Tell me how the table was set during the week for an ordinary week day meal, you know, say an evening meal during the week.
R- Well, the main things that were on the table were of course the milk jug, the sugar basin and the salt and pepper. Now if we were having bread of course the bread was buttered and prepared before and then put on the table. And if there was cake like I've mentioned at Sunday when we used to have apple pie, you see? Well the apple pie would be say on a plate about 12 inches in diameter, one of those big ones, and cut
into sections. Well, that would be put on the table but whatever you were, what you might call your tasty portion of the meal was always put on a plate and brought to you. For instance, I mean, at dinner time, when you were having your potatoes and meat it was always put to you on a plate on the table. She cooked in the kitchen and then brought it on the table. Or on the other hand, many a time when they were
cooking on the open fire it was just simply scooped out from the fire place on to the table you see. When, say for instance it was potato pie, you know, cooked in the oven, you used to have a board, put it on the table and then put the big dish on and then it was served out from there.
That's it. How about table covering John?
R- Well, let's say this, in the very early times it used to be scrubbed did the table top, it was like a white wood and it was scrubbed, and that was it. And if mother'd made a special effort she used to put paper on.
What sort?
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R- Newspaper, so that if you spilt or made any mess at all, it didn’t soil the table that she'd washed down you see? Because I know as we got bigger and I'm thinking now of the age of seven or eight, we used to have to scrub this table, we used to get a scrubbing brush and some water in a bowl and a cloth and soap you know, the household soap, we used to scrub it white. And we always had a tablecloth for Sunday you see, this was the special meal. We had a tablecloth at Sunday and then of course again, as we got more affluent you know we had tablecloths every day. But there again, where you have small children and they soil tablecloths fairly quickly, you know how we are when you're small, we never had tablecloths, we used to just have the scrubbed table.
How about general discipline in the home John? What was your mother or your father particularly strict about? You know, being cheeky or swearing, or…
R- Everything.
Everything?
R - Oh aye, everything. Now father was rather a strict disciplinarian in as much as if he said something that was it. And it was very very rare that my mother interfered if father said so, but my mother was a strict disciplinarian, in point of fact too strict. Too strict. Because one of her favourite sayings was children should be seen and not heard.
In what way would you say she was too strict John?
(35 min)
R- Well, the thing is if we had been a bit naughty, and I mean you know how children are, you know, getting a little bit too much high spirits you'd get put to bed. You see? And once you were put to bed that was it, you were there for the night. I mean she might put you to bed without tea but that was it. And on the odd occasion, I've been put to bed, but rather than miss the meal altogether, she'd relent and let you come down, but you had to go back when you'd had your meal. And there was no such thing as like playing games on a Sunday; you could play inside the house. I mean we had dominoes and various other games like Ludo and Snakes and Ladders and this kind of thing. You could do that or you could read but you couldn't go out playing ball or you couldn't go out playing hop-scotch or tin in't ring, and you know, that kind of thing. I mean, mother wan a bit of a Sabbatarian and of course in these days they didn't use to do it. I know a friend of mine was once up at court for playing football in the street on a Sunday.
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Is that right?
R- Oh yes, oh aye.
What was the actual charge John, can you remember.
R- Well, creating a nuisance I think. And what happened was, I mean he told me the tale, there were about half a dozen of them and they had this ball and were kicking it and the thing is somebody must have sent for the bobby, and he caught up with them, and they were all summonsed and he told them, he said “Now you plead guilty and you'll get off lightly. But if you are awkward, you know you'll be for it, in as much as you'll get fined wore heavily” And of course there were always such things as the reformatory. They'd be about 12 or 13. And I mean, this chap, he was called John, he told me, he says when we got in court if you'd have heard that bobby, we were the biggest culprits on earth and we'd pleaded guilty on his say so. And they were fined a pound apiece, which in those days was a terrific sum, and his mother, oh she didn't half railroad him, and he’d no father.
It were a fair fine though for those days, wasn't it?
R- Oh well this was it you see, but when he got up he said they were creating a nuisance and the ball was hitting people's windows, and they were shouting and bawling and making a general nuisance of themselves. He said it were nowt of the sort, we were just, you know passing the ball from one to the other you see, and because they were actually walking down the street passing this ball as lads used, well they still do it, oh aye. But he said the whole thing was that policeman was stationed in here, Rawtenstall for a good few years but he says as we grew up we marked him and if ever… He said he had his helmet knocked off more than once and he never knew who did it. Even when he was in civvies he said they marked him, in as much as he ... And he never lived it down. In point of fact it got to the stage where eventually he was transferred away for his own safety. Because these lads, you know, I mean in those days ... As I say he was here for a good number of years and as they grew up they never forgave him.
Oh, you still get that now John, you still get that sort of thing now.
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R- Oh yes. But discipline generally was very strict both in the home and outside. I mean even at the day school where I went to, we had a chappie who was a captain in the first world wart and when he came back he got us to the point where he could go out of the classroom and nobody dare speak even when he was out of the classroom. He used to have a habit of spying off the edge of the window, and I can see him now you know, the classroom opened out into the central hall, he’d gone to have a word with the headmaster and he’d be peeping off the side. And then he'd come in “Stand up all those who have been speaking. Right. Come on, two raps apiece with the cane.” These people who he'd seen who hadn’t owned up, he gave them four of the best and he let them know that. He said “I'll teach you not to admit..” Aye. And this was the type of thing, oh he had us…
Did your mother ever use corporal punishment in the home? Did she ever hit you?
R- Oh yes# oh aye. And not [only her], father did, oh aye, father many a time lost his temper. I mean he had a belt, aye. You know, you'd done something, father was inclined to be a bit short tempered when you had done something that aggravated him you know and oh aye, this is why you were afraid. I mean it's a thing that, shall I say, made such an impression that it's remained with me all the ...
Yes. Looking back John, like you said about your mother at first, you said that perhaps she was a bit too strict. Would you say that that sort of regime was too strict or was it right for the period? What are your opinions about that now?
R- Well, when I say too strict let me say this, that you got to the teenage stage, you see, and you were working. Now, if you were out while after 10 o' clock at night, “Where have you been, what for, what have you been doing?” and all this kind of thing. And although you resented it, you'd always been brought up to respect your parents, you see. I mean father was dead of course and you had always been brought up to respect, you know, “Honour thy father and thy mother.” was drilled into you and all this kind of thing at the chapel. And it stuck with you and this was it. I mean like when you wanted to go to a dance, oh no, oh no, that was simple style of thing, and “You can't go there, and you ...” And out of respect to your mother you didn't go although you'd liked to have gone. And a lot of things like that. For instance some of the, just to give you an example, some of the young fellows were going to [the Isle of Man] in the annual holidays because there used to be a camp there called Cunningham’s and it was a place where there were only males there. Well you know, there used to be this kind of, bit of discipline, you used to get up in the morning and you'd all to be up, you’d all to bathe and there were physical exercises, and then there were games and all that kind of thing. And some of the lads were going you see and I couldn't go. Oh no. But this is what I mean, it kind of narrowed your field down of your activities. It's one of those things.
Well, looking back would you say that the effect that that had on you, you know, that narrowing down, looking back would you say that that was a good thing or a bad thing, John?
R- It was a bad thing, a bad thing. It could have been a good thing in as much as one doesn't know what temptations one might have had you see.
That's it, yes.
R- But at the same time, looking back as you suggested, it was a bad thing in as much as it cramped their style, and it didn't give you rein to your own expressions you know, the things you’d have liked to have done. And you don't know what you could have done because you never were allowed to try.
And with that sort of thing in mind, did that have any bearing on the way you brought your son up?
R- No. Well, let me say no, that's wrong. Yes it did in as much as he was allowed to do what he wanted but with fatherly advice as to the whys and wherefores. For instance I mean when he got his girl friend he came and said he had got a girl friend and I said “Look, you do just as you want but bear this in mind, I'm always here for advice but you've got to make your own way and I shall never interfere.” The thing is that as he was growing up .. well, when his mother died particularly, and I was totally responsible, I used to let him have an element of freedom, but not to the point where it kind of interfered with his physical well being. For instance, I mean he never was allowed to stop out late, I'm speaking now of when he was about 13 or 14years old you know, that is early teens, but at the same time he could join in anything that was going.
(45 min)
In other words a moderate discipline. Yes. And when all's said and done, moderation isn't a had thing in any sphere of life, is it?
R- No.
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