THIS TAPE HAS BEEN RECORDED ON JANUARY 27TH 1979 AT 13 WHITEHEAD STREET, RAWTENSTALL. THE INFORMANT IS JOHN GREENWOOD, FORMER MANAGER AT SPRING VALE MILL. THE INTERVIEWER IS STANLEY GRAHAM.
Did you ever go away for a holiday when you were young?
R- Only ever once that I could remember. The first time we went away for a full week with the wakes except for this one occasion was when I was 18 years of age. And .. shall 1 tell you the story about the first holiday we ever had?
Yes, certainly John.
R- Because it arose in very peculiar circumstances, in as much as I've already said my father was a bit of a gambler. Well, he was more than a bit of a gambler you know. But there was a particular horse, and it was
running in the Lincolnshire handicap, in March, and it was named Soronous.
What year would this be John, any idea?
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R- Oh it would be about 1920. And of course my mother's name was Sarah Anne and my father always called her Sarranny, and so the association of Sarranny and Soronous .. he fancied this gee-gee with the result that time and time again he bet on it before the Lincolnshire and of course it was a rank outsider, and by some quirk of fate it came in at about 100 to 1. Now however much he won we never knew. The only thing that I can remember about it particularly was that all the family got new clothes, and of course I got a new suit, my father got a new suit, mother got new clothes, and like it was quite an event. The thing was of course, as soon as he got the money he started giving it them back and of course he drunk very heavily while he had the money but there was enough left anyway to take us to Liverpool actually for a holiday. So my mother wrote to her sister who lived in Liverpool, and of course the great day arrived and we set off. Now we went to Liverpool on the train, they came and met us at the station and quite honestly my mother wept because my auntie had I don't know whether there was four or five children and they were there in bare feet and rags.
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Aye?
R- Yes. And we went up to their house in Old Swan in Liverpool and they hadn't a thing in the house. Her husband was a docker and he’d been out of work for weeks and weeks and weeks, and they'd nothing in the house. And the first thing I can remember my mother did was to go out and buy some bread and some ham and eggs, and you can believe me it were a real picnic cooking for about 10 or 11 of us. And that was the first thing we did. And then she took them out and bought these children a pair of pumps. Now that was more or less the start of this holiday, and it's lingered in my memory for so long because the thing is they lived in a terraced house, and we used to walk it down actually into Liverpool and these kids you know, like what you might call urchins, some people would class them as urchins, knew their way about like nobody's business.
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And we used to set off and they took me to the Walker Art Gallery in Liverpool, and the Liverpool Museum, and the Museum of Anatomy, I can still see in my mind's eye a horse, half skeleton and half imitation skin and of course I was very much interested in that. And then the highlight of the holiday was on the Monday afternoon we went across to New Brighton on the ferry.
That's it.
R- First time of course mind you that I had seen so many big ships. As you went across to New Brighton on the ferry you could see the docks you know, all these big ships in the docks and of course the very fact of going on the, well it was the River Mersey, but 1 mean it
(5 min)
might have been the Mediterranean as far as I was concerned do you know, it was such an event. And we went to New Brighton in the afternoon but the thing was as I say, the occasion stuck well in my memory in as much as I've never seen really such abject poverty as there was there. And he said he, I think he hadn’t worked for seven weeks and he’d about five children.
And how many were there of you?
R- There were f our of us.
Yes, three children and your mother.
R - So there were nine children and four adults. And I just can't remember the sleeping arrangements. I know that we…
They’d be fairly desperate.
R - Aye. But yet that was the first time I ever went away from home you see.
Was that the first time you ever went out of the valley?
R- Well, more or less yes, more or less.
At 11 years old.
R- Thereabouts, aye, thereabout.
Yes. Your mother had chosen to go to Liverpool because she had relations there obviously ...
R- Well her sister were there you see and the thing is that she'd written to her and they said we could go there. I mean there were no board and there were no lodgings to pay for, it were that kind of thing.
That's its aye.
R- But mind you it was an event and that's the first time really.
Do you think your mother expected such poverty when she went?
R- No I don't, I don't. Because, as I say, my mother cried. Of course mother was inclined to be a little bit you know, soft hearted, but she cried when she saw all the .. and particularly when they hadn't a thing in the house you see so of course ...
Yes, I can imagine that.
R- I can see it now. They came out of this terraced house and went to a shop at the top of the street, and they'd have a buying in you know. We had a fair number of jam butties you know.
Oh well, I still like jam butties now. Did either or both of your parents ever take you on outings or visits when you were young?
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R- No, the thing is that ... or only to relations. Well like we’d go to relations and the thing is up to being 11, during the first world war you were very restricted. You were very restricted and, I mean the first time I went to the seaside I'd be what, about 13 ... 14?
Where did you go then?
R- Southport. Half a day and I never saw the sea.
Aye, that's the trouble with Southport! Aye.
R - And it was, I've related the occasion when the class teacher took me on what they used to call a painters picnic. And there used to be iron railings round the chapel and the men used to get together and paint these railings every year. And of course it's bred this spirit of camaraderie that they all got together and they said right, we’ll have a picnic now. And it used to be half a day, Saturday afternoon to Southport or somewhere like that. And as it happened there was one seat vacant so he went, this class leader came to see my mother, to see if 1 could go. Well I had no, I had
a Sunday suit but I had no proper clothes, like we never wore pyjamas or anything like that. And anyway he said he can stop at my house and, you know, it'll be late when we get back. So it was agreed but there was another chappie who took his son so two of us had to squeeze on one seat, and that was how 1 went. But I can remember she gave me a shilling, and she said “Now, if you don't spend it, bring it back you see?
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Did you bring any back?
R - Oh yes, aye. Oh he wouldn't let me pay for anything actually, he gave me my collection for ... See, he went to chapel at Sunday morning and I had to go to chapel with him then I had to go back to the house to me dinner. You see they had no children and I think he kind of took to me, well he did take to me because I mean he showed me a lot of little things, you know, like little favours in a way that .. he had quite an influence on my life. But the thing is that I went back to his house to my dinner and then I went back to Sunday School in the afternoon, and then I went home.
(10 min)
So when you said class leader, that was a class leader at Sunday School.
R- Yes, oh yes, class leader at Sunday School aye.
Were, was it quite common for a class leader at Sunday School to be, say a person like that that had no children of their own? Would you say it was quite common that?
R- Oh well, no I wouldn't say so, I wouldn't say so because there were quite a lot of classes you know. This chap, he only took lads of say, 11 to 14. That was his particular range you see? And I mean the other ranges, age ranges, the respective teachers in the Sunday School had their own classes, you see. In other words it was a Bible class and you used to have these weekly class meetings kind of to keep you together.
R- Yes. Were there any qualifications for being a teacher at Sunday School? Do you know? I mean internal qualifications in the church. Say you decided that you wanted to be a class leader at Sunday School what qualifications would you need. Would you need recommendations from the elders or who appointed you?
R- Well there used to be, the thing was that you had, there was no educational qualifications as much as sincerity and integrity. And then again, a lot of them, they used to select like people they knew because I mean I wasn't asked to be a teacher until I was about 18 or 19 you see. And it was a big thing when I was asked to be a teacher. But at the same time there were a lot even younger than me who were already teachers. Of course when you think about it, in those days you'd happen have about anywhere up to 20 different classes you see in the senior school. And then in the primary department there'd be another 12 and then in the junior there’d be happen another 12 or 13, probably more, classes. You know each with about 6 or 7 and it was quite a big thing in those days. I mean there were lots of teachers.
So, when you were asked to be a teacher, would you regard that as a mark of favour from the chapel? A recognition of your qualities you know, an honour. Would it be regarded as an honour?
R- Well, yes up to a point. Oh yes. I mean the thing is that you were thought worthy to be a teacher.
Yes, that's it, yes.
R- But so often you had a feeling of frustration when you saw that so and so had become a teacher and you have been passed over. And as I have already mentioned about the Girl Guides ... one of the leader of the Guides was the leader in the primary, you see, and she asked me if I’d like to go and join with the primary department. And again you got this attitude that once you were a teacher you were always a teacher, in as much as they never wanted to lose you, they always wanted to keep the same class if you follow what I mean. And it used to be that on the odd occasion, I remember when I was going through the school the teacher moved up with you and we’d have loved a change.
Yes that's it. I were just going to say if say somebody who was teaching children of 11 to 14 died, or for some reason stopped teaching, would they move somebody from one of the lower classes up and start a new person in one of the lower classes or did they start people straight away in a class, say 11 to 14s?
R- Well it used to work that they used to move them up you see. But then again as I say some didn't want to move or they didn't want to move out of department you know. They didn't want to come in the junior, because like, there was a higher standard of teaching necessary say in the juniors than it would be in the primary where the little toddlers were you know, up to about 7.
Yes. Did you ever go out with just your father?
R- Occasionally. But it was mainly, if ever I went out with my father it would be school holidays when he’d take me on the cart, when he was coal bagging. Mind you, in those days when you got 40 bags of coal, 2 tons on a lorry with two horses you had to walk at the side, there was no room to ride on the top. But at night, the only time I can really remember going out with my father, occasionally like I’ve said before on another tape, that he used to get free passes to go in the local theatre and he used to take me occasionally. But that was about it you know.
Well, were any of the family connected with the Temperance Movement? Obviously not you father, but anybody else?
R- No, not directly I mean that as children we all went to the Band of Hope.
Signed the pledge.
R- Oh yes.
And your mother, what was her attitude to drink?
R- Oh well, lets say this, mother was very prejudiced against it because I mean, she saw what it did, what effect it had on her family and the thing is that my father used to get drunk you know. And I mean, in drink of course he, you know it wasn't always pleasant.
Yes, I can well believe that John. Did anybody ever lecture you on the evils of drink?.
R- Oh well yes. Like as I say, at the Band of Hope this was, it was temperance you see. And they specialised in total abstinence and I mean you got these, the leaders of the Band of Hope who, well I mean you used to have all kinds of things in as much as you'd have speakers from different places, different speakers, and sometimes you'd have a slide show, there were no cinematographs then you know, you'd have a slide show. I mean the thing is that there's one, it sticks in my memory now You’re your own cherries.’ a slide show, a story illustrated by slides. And it sticks in my memory you know where the chappie spent all his money in the pub. Then he went in one time and the woman had a bowl of cherries on the bar and he was taking one,
or he took one and she rounded on him to the effect that .. 'Buy your own cherries.’ and with that of course it struck his conscience, and after that he said ‘Right, he'd buy his own cherries.” He went home and bought his children all this, that and the others instead of spending money at the pubs and that’s it. I think the last line was where the woman in the pub accosted him and asked “When are you coming back?” and all
this kind of thing. He says he’s never coming back, he was spending his money on
cherries for his children you know. Aye. We used to have these slide shows, and then of course they threw a lot of these on coffee and bun evenings, social gatherings you know to get the children to come. And I know one particular thing was that they once had at a do for a prize for them what brought the most children over four weeks. You know, fresh children. They’d have to be fresh. I won that prize, I rounded up all
the kids I could think of.
Can you remember seeing women going into pubs when you were a lad?
R- Oh yes, aye.
And what was the general attitude to women going into pubs?
R- Well they were kind of looked down on in the main. And mind you, me grandma used to go into the pub for a pint but she'd bring it out in a jug, you see?
Aye, jug and bottle aye.
R- Aye, jug and bottles under her shawl you know? But women going and sitting in pubs, it was rather frowned upon in the early days of course, and as kind of, the emancipation came in, in point of fact now, I think you see more women in pubs than you see men.
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Of course the first world war would make a lot of difference to that wouldn't it?
R - Oh it did indeed, yes.
How about women smoking?
R- Well you used to see the old ladies sat at the door on hot days in summer time with a clay pipe, and I've seen lots of these smoking tobacco. Oh they used to smoke did the old dames and you know, they used to enjoy their pipe. And then it kind of went out and like it got a bit frowned upon, and then after the first world war, let’s see, when would it be? Well, round about the 1930s there seemed to be an upsurge, you knows women smoking. But anybody seen in the street smoking you know, particularly young women, they were regarded as fast. And of course when they got into the mills it got quite common and it built up until, well it's an accepted thing now.
Yes, yes.
R- In point of fact I was at a do the other night where there was a woman smoking cigars.
Oh yes, you quite often see that, cheroots and cigars now, yes. And so, generally speaking, if a woman went into a pub on her own she was, well in those days she was more or less a fallen woman straight away.
R- Well yes that was the general idea. And there used to be a lot of going in at the back door you see. There used to be a lot of going in at the back door, because where we lived there was a pub within 25 yards and of course as you used to play in the streets as children you’d see these folks you know, nipping in and also nipping out. And it was quite, shall I say a not done thing, because this particular pub it had three
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doors, one at the front one at the back and one at the side. And you used to see these folksy you knows just sneaking in, aye.
Would you say there was more drinking then than now or the other way round?
R- I wouldn't say there's much difference actually in as much as, I don't just know how to put this, in as much as the pubs were always warm and well lit comparatively speaking and they were a kind of centre for the social activity. Now how much drink they consumed whilst they were in I do not know but I've heard people say “Well he sat there all night with a pint.” With one pint whereas today I mean you'll hear some of the people say “Well, I’ll just go in to the pub or the club for the last hour.” You see now how much they consume in that last hour I don't know, compared say to the chappie who sat there all night with a pint.
That's it, aye. And I think that's a very important point actually John, that in less affluent days the pub was probably the most comfortable place people ever went into.
R- Yes, I suppose so.
And warm, sociable.
R- I mean in winter time they always had, you know, roaring fires and in summer time of course the beer was always cool you know so they had a double excuse, one to get in and get warm in winter and two, to have a cool drink in summer.
I've heard old people in Barnoldswick talk about, saying that it was quite common in the sort of times we are talking about and earlier in the century, for people to save up to go on the rant.
R - Oh yes.
And .. is that your experience? Have you any experience of that?
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R- Oh yes. I mean the thing is you'd see somebody drunk and then say “Hello, he’s struck t’rant again!” And then he’d drink and drink till the money was done and then held go back to work. Of course in those days it used to be that you could change your job very easily you know. There wasn't the degree of unemployment that there is today. And you read your local paper and they'd want weavers here or spinners there, or carters here, or .. but there wasn't the same degree of unemployment, at least, let's say it wasn't as pronounced. Today we have all these statistics and we know, in those days they didn't.
Yes. I think that there again John you've probably made a very important point there . I often think that attitudes nowadays are very largely governed by the fact that the media, the newspapers, television and radio give importance to certain things. I means such as unemployment figures, and I've often wondered if there'd be as much worry about unemployment if we weren't told every month just how many people were out of work. And I mean, we all know that they're largely fictitious figures
anyway, because there's a lot of people who are actually unemployed that it doesn't take into account.
R- True, it's true.
Things like married women and things like that don't pay a full stamp. But 1 think that's a very important point, John.
R- Well, the thing was that in those days of course .. I can remember the dole coming in, the unemployment pay.
When was that John?
R- Oh I can't just tell you the year but I can remember it coming in, because afore time there used to be one chappie, he was called Holt, Thomas Holt, better known as Tom o’ Fanny. And if you were destitute you used to have to go to him you see and he would give you a voucher to go and get food, and he was the sole judge of whether you got anything or nothing.
Was that ‘The Parish’?
R- Yes, aye. And I mean, I used to take his paper you see and I knew him very well.
He'd be a powerful man then.
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R- Oh yes. And a right nasty piece of work to everybody who went to see him. You know he’d say “Well, sell your watch.” and that kind of attitude. And again he used to say “Right, well if you've nothing to eat you'll have to go in't workhouse.” And he used to be the chappie who used to send people to the workhouse.
Where was the nearest workhouse to here John?
R- Well it’s now part of the Rossendale General Hospital.
Yes, that's quite common.
R- That was the workhouse.
Yes. Whereabouts is that?
R- It's on the way to Haslingden, about a mile out of the centre of Rawtenstall on your right, on the hill.
Yes, that’s it, I’ve seen the place. It’s quite clear that the fact that your father drank did have an effect on the family finances but I don't think that it would be, from
what I’ve seen of you anyway, I wouldn't think that it was correct to say that your family was ruined by drink. But did you have any personal knowledge of any families who were ruined by drink? I mean, had to sell up or split up?
R- Well I couldn’t answer that without thinking. You know, you have to cast your mind back to try and recollect. But at the same time, there used to be a lot more poverty. Like children coming to the school and that kind of thing than is apparent today.
When you say children coming to the school, do you mean coming without shoes or badly dressed?
R- Shoes, yes. Well, they were clogs in them days in the main.
Yes, that’s it, yes.
R- Only the better off wore shoes.
Yes. How important was it. I don’t quite know how to put this, were people concerned about what their neighbours opinion of them was? In other words if say a woman like your mother was suffering from the effects of her husband drinking and the money wasn’t coming in, Would your mother be concerned in anyway to present a good face to the outside world, even though she was working under difficulties?
R- Well yes. I mean the thing is she’d never plead poverty. This is one of the reasons why of course she kept her work as much as she could, because she was sure of her wages, my father didn't get that you see. But at the same time she always put a face on. But you see so often people were very critical in as much as it was often said “Well, if they've money for booze they should have money for this that and the other.” People tended to be very critical in those days of your behaviour.
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If somebody, I’ve often found it very interesting this, if your mother was in the company of one or two other women, and say one of these women started to denigrate your father's character because of the fact that he drank too much and gambled, what do you think would your mother’s attitude have been?
R- Oh well she’d have defended him. Oh aye, she’d have defended him. I mean the thing is even to the effect of telling them to mind their own business and that would be that.
Yes, what do you think is the reason for that Jon? I mean, do you think that's because of any regard that she held for your father or from the old family thing, you know that the family must stick together.
R- Well, both those points have merit. In as much as when she'd got four children you see, I mean the family more or less had to stick together. And on the other hand I mean she must have had some feeling for him in the first place to marry him you see?
That’s it, yes, obviously.
R- I mean, you can’t account for the feeling of one person for another. You know, to say why or how, it just happens.
That’s it yes. It would have been very natural though for your mother to agree with somebody that [criticised your dad] That’s really the point that intrigues me. You would think that in adverse circumstances it would be very natural. It shows a great strain of loyalty doesn’t it, inside the family.
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R- Oh yes. Now let's just get one point straight, he wasn’t shall I say an out and outer. I mean he had his good points, in as much as he’d always work you see. He’d always go to work even many a time when he was ill he went to work. Oh no, I mean he would work. Although what he gave me mother was his business, but at the same time he’d work. Well I don’t know really how to put it, although he spent a lot of time at the club there was always an affection to his children. And particularly one, the youngest girl, she was his favourite as I've said before but at the same time there was an affection to the family. Because I mean, we had one brother who, when he was ill, he was seriously ill, and he ran from the house to the doctor's to get some medicine for him and when be came back he semi collapsed through palpitations. You see what I mean?
Yes.
R- Oh no, hee wasn't all bad. And he had a feeling for his fellow man, in as much as, I think I've related before about one chap that he worked with, they worked in pairs. He died and he left his family destitute with no money to bury him. And of course he went round and begged and cajoled from all the coal merchants and people that he knew, until he got enough money to bury the chappie you see. I mean, he wasn't all bad and he was a type of person who would give anybody a lift you see.
In the local pub were certain rooms kept for certain people, you know were there different rooms in a pub?
R- Well, let’s say this, there was always a tap room which was the room where the ordinary folk went and then you used to get the snug which was a little more posh, a littler more plush and upholstery. And then you used to get what they called the best room where you couldn't go in there with your clogs on because they'd have carpets down and what have you. You see in a lot of these pubs in the tap room they used to have sand or sawdust on the floor and spittoons. And the tables used to be like iron tables, wrought iron legs, that kind of thing. I can see them now. Of course, where they had a carpet down you couldn’t go in there with your clogs on because you’d cut it up you see.
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Can you remember, in Rawtenstall when you were young, any street performers or people selling stuff who entertained passers by.
R- Oh yes, aye. There used to be an Italian come round with an organ. You know, one of these where you turn the handle.
Yes. Was that on two wheels or on a…
R- Yes, on two wheels, he used to push it aye.
Yes. Barrel organ, yes.
R- Barrel organ. And then I can remember down at the bottom where the market stands now there used to be Rawtenstall Fair, and there were one chap who used to come with a bear, a performing bear.
Now that's interesting, what year would that be now?
R- Oh I should say that it would be about 1913, something like that. I know I was very small.
That's very interesting because I was amazed when I came across the first reference to a performing bear in Earby. I thought that was something that went out in the Middle Ages.
R- Oh no, he used to have this bear and he had a chain on. Now what did he have? Was it a hurdy gurdy? And it used to dance on its back legs. Ye, and they used to have a circus, the circus used to come down on the fair. Yes it used to come on what they used to call Tup Meadow which is where the market stands now.
When you say that the fair used to be there, the word fair is sometimes used for a cattle auction, a cattle sale. Was there a cattle auction in Rawtenstall?
R- No, you see with them all being hill farms here the nearest auction was up at
Bank Gate in Haslingden.
That's it, Haslingden.
R- There's been a cattle auction there for oh ever since I can remember.
Yes. Which is still a big dairy auction now, yes.
R- Yes. But there were no cattle. They used to have a show on May Day. I mean why they think May Day particularly applies to Russia I don't know because Kirk Show as it was called was always held on May Day going back to my earliest recollections.
How about street singers or street musicians?
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R- Well let’s say this. There used to be a lot of beggars who used to sing in the street, you know. And you'd give them a penny and that kind of thing but as for buskers as you might say, there weren't very many of them. Particularly after the General Strike, I think it was 1921, [1926] there was a bit of an upsurge then, when they used to come round and I have an idea that they were miners. Like they formed musical groups and they went through these towns collecting and I can remember that. But like mind you we have always had the Britannia Coconutters and Pace Eggers Easter time.
Aye. We'll come on to that, we'll come on to Pace Egg Sunday and things like that. How about street cries John?
R- Well yes. I can't ever remember a bellman, and yet they used to say there was one because you know, from the old talk, ‘When t’Bellman come round’ you see. But I mean all the hawkers, you know, these chappies who went round with the cart used to have their cries. Like there were one chap and he didn't sell anything only kippers and he used to come round and he carried this box on his head. ‘Lovely kippers, new kippers, bonny kippers’ and they called him that. You know he came regularly and they called him Bonny Kippers, and then of course you got the rag and bone chaps, they always came round. And then you used to get the street hawkers, you know, greengrocery, fishcarts, they'd ring a bell and that kind of thing. But I think that's as far as it went.
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Yes. Now, about services. When I say services, I mean how common was it to see say a sweep going round, you know, with the brushes.
R- Oh it was quite common. I mean how many had we? We had Mindenhall, we'd Flynn ... oh there were quite a few sweeps up and down. There is a bit of a classic story told, you know, of a parson that we had at Newchurch called Hopkins and his church was on a hill, known as Turnpike and it's very, very steep. And the thing is that Parson Hopkins saw a sweep pushing his barrow - he hadn’t his dog collar on, he hadn't his dog collar on, and he saw a sweep pushing his barrow. You know it used
to be a two wheeled hand-cart, up Newchurch, up Turnpike. So he helped him to push it to the top. And when he got to the top he turned round to the sweep, he said “You wouldn’t think a parson would help you to do, to push that up there.” And of course the chap turned round with a mouthful and said “What so and so parson'd ever think to give a sweep a lift?” you see, and Hopkins said “Well, this one has done!” And I don’t know the outcome of it, but I'm sure that that conveyed more to that fellow than any sermon Hopkins might have preached in all hi life. But he was
a Padre was Hopkins in the first world war and of course he made a great impression at Newchurch. In point of fact he started the scouts there and they're still going and that was in the 1920s, early 1920s.
What did you think ... I'm speaking of younger days, say up to about 14, 15, 16 you know, what did you think of Rawtenstall as a place to live?
R- Well you didn't think anything really, because you had never travelled much you see, you had never travelled much so you had never seen other areas to make a comparison. In point of fact the thing is that it was people outside the valley who came in who you got in touch with that kind of impressed on us - well, impressed on me anyway – the beauty of the valley. Because my mother made friends with some Salvationists in Manchester and this was after my father'd died, yes father died. And they used to come up to Rawtenstall from Manchester, they lived in Cheetham Hill district, and Ernest he was called, and he used to get up at six o'clock every morning and make a point of going on top of Cribden you know, which is the highest hill round here, that's the one over there. And he used to say that coming into the valley did him more good than a week at Blackpool you see. Bit like outsiders made us appreciate the valley more than we appreciated it from the inside. He said you don't know how well off you are having these hills and being able to get on the moors, and you know you've got all the birds and not many trees. But you’ve got the birds and the live stock and you've got the grasses and the flowers such as they are. And we didn't appreciate them and we don't appreciate them to this day.
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