THIS TAPE HAS BEEN RECORDED ON FEBRUARY 24TH 1979 AT 13 WHITEHEAD STREET, RAWTENSTALL. THE INFORMANT IS JOHN GREENWOOD, FORMER MANAGER AT SPRING VALE MILL. THE INTERVIEWER IS STANLEY GRAHAM.
Right, we'll put the cat among the pigeons now John. We'll move from interesting subjects like films, to politics. Can you ever remember your family discussing politics?
R- Not in this strict, I'm speaking as a very small child. They never took any active part in politics but at the same time as a small child I can remember a chappie putting up called Maiden who was a Liberal. In point of fact he became Sir Henry Maiden. and the children used to sing a ditty ‘Vote vote vote for Mr Maiden, he is sure to win the day. We’ll get a salmon tin and we’ll put his rival in.’ I've just forgotten the last bit. But this is what we used to go round singing you see. And Maiden was a Liberal. Of course there were only Liberal and Tories then you know, I mean in as much as Labour hadn't really come to the fore up to the first world war. But there used to be great rivalry between the Tories and Liberals because the Liberals were very strong. We had a Liberal MP and I think it was about 1930 when we got a Conservative in.
How would you say the parties were split up John? The usual thing seems to have been, it's a very broad generalisation but land owners and gentry were Tory, manufacturers and say upper-middle class tradesmen were Liberals. Would you say that was the same here?
R- Oh no. Oh I mean there were some quite wealthy Liberals. I mean, Sir Henry Maiden, Maiden’s Slipper Works, but I can't just bring them to mind.
Yes but manufacturers, you know what I mean, I'm making a distinction between. I'm not making a distinction in wealth but a distinction like between land owners and manufacturers if you will. You know, would it be true to say that land owners were usually Tory and manufacturers were usually Liberals. Would you say that that was a fair thing to say?
R- Well yes, I should think that’s nearer the mark. I’m just trying to think what the Whitehead family were. And see, now it comes to me that when Miss Carrie who was the first Lady Mayoress of this borough, put up - she always put up as an independent. But they didn't express any particular bias in politics didn't the Whitehead family. Not my recollection of them and I knew Miss Carrie and Mr Harry because Sir Harry was the president of the Boy Scouts Associations you see, when I was in the Scouts. But 1 don't think they expressed any particular party politics.
What politics did your father follow?
Well, that's something 1 can't really tell you, because he never took an active interest in politics in as much as he was a politician or anything like that. I mean he just seemed to be one of those what they classify today as 'don't know'. But I do remember what my first contact with politics was. I'd be about what, 13-14 and there, there was an element in the town of what today we would call left wing influence. And there were certain people, a chappie called Byce and Pat Steens, and one or two more who kind of formed a branch of the Labour Party.
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That'd be the I.L.P. then wouldn't it?
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R- Aye, the Independent Labour Party. And what they used to do, they had a room and they used to have socials for young folks. They'd got the right idea in those days, catch 'em young. And of course they'd have these social evening which were free you know. Well I mean, anywhere for a free do, and there we used to go and they used to have them in a place called Hobson’s Rooms. Now, Hobson’s is, one of the Hobson brothers was a real out and out Methodist Reformer, he used to stand at street corners preaching you know. Tom Hobson, aye, Tom and Sam, two brothers. And they owned this building and it were known as Hobson’s Rooms, but they let it out to the Independent Labour Party.
Which almost seems to indicate that they had I.L.P tendencies themselves.
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R- Well I wouldn't say they'd any particular leanings at all because particularly Tom Hobson, Sam Hobson was a builder you see and this was old Sam. And then Tom, I mean Tom was a very old man, but I know he used to come round speaking to the churches and local preacher and he’d preach at, he’d join the Salvation Army if they were having an open air meeting you know. Just stand with them and help them on, he were what you might call a bit of a hot gospeller you see. But the I.L.P. had their meetings there and then the thing is that from that the Labour Party took up the ideal and I used to go to their gatherings you know?
So you make a distinction between the I.L.P. and what we now know as the Labour Party?
R - Oh yes. Aye because there used to be a paper, and if my memory serves me right it were called the Clarion you see. And having to do with a paper shop at that time you see they used to get the Clarion, and I think, I'm not sure whether the Clarion was a forerunner of the Tribune. But anyway they used to get the Clarion, they were Bill Byce and eh, I were trying to think of some of the others but anyway they used to instruct us kids in…
Something you said that's very interesting there, John. You said that when you were delivering papers you used to deliver the Clarion. Have you any idea how that newspaper, the Clarion, got to the newspaper shop? It’s a long shot is this, did it get there in any different way than any of the other papers did?
R - Oh no.
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No. I tell you the reason I asked. A lot of people nowadays don't realise this and I think you'll know it, but you know these clubs, the Clarion Cycling Club ...
R- Aye.
Yes. Well now, those clubs were formed as a means of distributing the Clarion paper because at one period, and I'm not really sure just exactly when it was, the distributors of newspapers refuse to distribute the Clarion and the only way that they could distribute it was by people like the Clarion Cycling Clubs. You know, distributing it. Now, whether they distributed it to the newsagents or local agents you know, or I.L.P. clubs or whatever it was I don't know enough about it. But at the same time they formed what were known as ‘The Clarion Houses’. Have you ever come across any of those?
R - No I haven’t, no.
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No. There is one left that I know of at Dimpenley near Barley which is near Nelson. And what it was it was a hut out in the countryside and the practice was - and still is there - you can still go for a walk on a Sunday afternoon, finish up at the Clarion House and have a mug of tea sat underneath a photograph of Kier Hardie. There's some toilets outside and they were built by the apprentices in 1920 or something like that, and you can tell they were and all because there isn't a brick laid straight in them. But things like that and the old I.L.P. has always struck me as in some ways a very human, very ... how can I put it? Social as opposed to Socialist orientated organisation. You know, they seemed to go in for things like what were almost Sunday Schools and things like that.
R - Yes. Well this is what I was saying, the thing is we used to go because they used to have these socials you know. You'd have game and well no dancing but there’d be games, and it would be an interesting evening. Somebody would give you a talk and you could ask questions you know and this was the thing. Although like the thing is when Byce died Mrs Byce kept it on for a while but it folded up. Well then the Labour Party came in you know, it came in in about 1920.
That’s it aye.
R- And they kind of worked in together.
Now we are talking about politics. Can you over remember hearing any reference or knowing anything yourself personally of an organisation with initials the SDF?
R- SDF?
The Social Democratic Federation.
R- No I can't ever remember there being anything like that in Rawtenstall.
he
No, it’d earlier if there were anything of it about. It was a man called Hyndman founded it. Actually he was a lawyer and he read a French translation of Marx’s Das Capital when he was coming on a boat across the Atlantic and he was so taken on with it that he formed his own political party. He was a very strange character actually. And the Fabians, they were the other socialist…
R - Oh the Fabians, there was a Fabian Society.
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Now, was there a Fabian Society in Rawtenstall?
R- Oh yes, aye there was a Fabian society. Yes now, I can't just tell you like any of the names of the people who attended but there was a Fabian society, I remember that.
Up to when John. Have you any idea?
R- Well, oh I should say it carried on until, oh the second world war.
Because they were they actually the three forerunners. They were the three foundations of the Labour movement as we know it in this country. The Social Democratic Federation, the I.L.P., the Independent Labour Party, and the Fabians. The Fabians are really the upper class end you know. The people who did more talking than action but nevertheless people who were interested in socialist principles. Now while we are on about that 1922 is the year the Communist Parties were first formed in this country. Was there ever a Communist Party in Rawtenstall?
R- I can't just remember any particular branch of the Communist Party but we have always had what today we term left wingers, extremists, but I don't just know when the Communist Party was formed. There is a party now you know, Communist Party.
1922.
R - But I mean, here, in Rawtenstall there is a fairly strong Communist Party now. Which has developed really since the end of the second world war. Because the thing was that, and even to this day the people of Rawtenstall, well Rossendale I should say, will not accept Communists in any office. Such as councillors or anything like that. I mean they, for instance there were about four put up at the last election three years ago, and I don't think between them they polled above three or four hundred votes.
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At the opposite end of the spectrum nowadays to come right up to date, is there any evidence of the National Front making headway in this area?
R- Oh yes, aye. We had a branch of the National Front in Rawtenstall but just what's happened to it, it's like in very low key at the moment, but there were members of the National Front, and one or two were quite active, in as much as they wrote letters to the paper, and they had a march one time and the thing is. now who was it? There was a Communist inspired march at the same time and I know the police bad difficulty and they had to draft extra police in to keep them apart. You see the Communists you know, they jump on the band wagon to anything where they can get publicity. For instance, I mean we have had a case in this last two years of a social centre where the thing is that some of the local manufacturers found them some work, these physically handicapped - you'll have read about it in the paper - and it's been going, oh for quite a few years. Then suddenly a member of the Communist Party's husband started to go into this centre and of course then she started to stir it up, they were only getting 15p a week for doing this particular job. Well it was a therapy rather than a job but they made it out that they were employed and they had bosses and this that and the other which was far and away exaggerated. I mean because the work was entirely voluntary, if they wanted to do it. And they got £1.15 a week, you see. Well their meals cost £1 a week, they didn't do originally but you know, with the rise in cost over this inflation this last year or two it got to £1 a week and they were actually said to be working for 15p. But, with the Communist Party jumping on the wagon I mean it raised quite a furore. I mean they lobbied the County Council at Preston and then of course the local M.P. who is a left winger, he jumped on the band wagon, he asked questions here and questions there, all prompted from the Communists, because what I was interested in, this place has been open seven years, but until this Communist husband went in, there hadn't been a word said. And the MP. has been in four years and he never raised it at all you see? But this is it, in point of fact the Communists have got control of the Trades Council which is their way of working you know, they infiltrate particularly Unions and this kind of thing, and they're quite strong now.
At that sort of level John, and obviously I'm talking about present day circumstances now, of course you are a councillor, you are on the council. Just as a matter of general interest, what's your opinion of the role of party politics in local government?
R- Well my own opinion is that there should be no party politics in local government because let me say this, I'm not glorifying myself in any way at all but because I was a Socialist up to, oh I should say about 20, well more than 20 years ago. Did 1 ever tell you the story of why I changed?
No but I'll ask you that after. What, you just tell we about politics in local councils and then you'll tell me about that.
R- Oh but anyway the thing is here you see you are elected as a representative of the people. And I told our lot, I mean I put up under the Conservative banner. I said that if anything should come in Council which in my opinion is for the benefit of the
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people who elect me, if I get on I shall certainly vote for it independent of whoever moves it, whether he be Labour, Liberal or Conservative because if I do get on I hope I shall be a representative of the people and not the political party.
That's it.
R- And they agreed. They said well, the thing is that we shan't interfere with your conscience. So that's fair enough. So that's why I put up. That was the only condition I put up because I wasn't an active member of any political party.
Good. Now then, you say that you were a Socialist. When you say that you were a Socialist, were you a member of the Labour Party?
R- No, definitely not.
You weren't a member?
R- No. You see because the thing is that I've always been a church goer and so often the power seeking of politicians cuts across what I believe. And of course I have no room for it because after all, if anything the church has done for me at any rate, is to make we aware of a conscience you see. And this is why I never was actually a member of the Labour Party. But me say this, I have been a trade unionist for 50 years, I believe in trade unions, as trade unions, not as tools of party politics. You see?
That's it. Well, we shall get on to trade unions. Now, so you could be fairly described as a Christian who was a Christian and a voter with Socialist leanings. Yes? Now then, you say that you changed, now you tell me why you changed.
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R- Well actually I was on the local Trades Council as a representative for the Cardroom Union, of which I have been a member for donkeys years.
One interruption there, John, sorry. What's the full name of that union?
R - Oh aye, now then.
Because I know it's fairly long, isn’t it?
R- The Union of .. wait a minute .. Blow Room, Ring Room, Floor… Association of Blow Room, Ring Room and Spinning Operatives, something like that. I can't just give you the full quotation from memory. But anyway, I was on the, elected to the Trades Council you know for that union, and of course when you go to these meetings regularly you kind of make friends with the other members and there was one in particular you know that I used to chat to. We'd have a chat in the street and that kind of thing you know when we met. You know how associations are formed. And it
came to be that he was a local councillor.
What was his name John?
R- Stanley Hill. He was a local councillor and of course as I say I was interested in the local Council, I always have been. And we used to chat about what went on and this kind of thing. Now, it came about that at one meeting something was passed, and it was a Labour Council you know, because I mean we had a Labour Council, we had a Liberal Council.
Was Stanley Hill a Socialist?
R- Oh yes he was a Socialist, aye. We had had a Liberal Council for oh, years and years and then it became Socialist and we actually had a Socialist Council continuously for twenty odd years. But Stanley was a Socialist, and they passed something at one meeting, and of course Stanley voted for it. And the thing was that at the next meeting they'd thought again about it, and they wanted it rescinding and of course it went against Stanley's conscience so of course he voted against it. Well, he told me that when he went home, the following day he went home to his dinner and there was a letter there
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expelling him from the Labour Party. [The meeting was] Wednesday night and at Thursday dinner time he went home and the letter was there. This was in the days when the post was the post you see.
What year would this be about John, roughly?
R- Oh 30s, in the 1930s I just couldn't pin it down to a year. 1936, yes it would be 1936 happen. Yes, anyway it was in the 1930s. So anyway, he were telling me on principle he wouldn't vote against it because it's making it that you can’t know your own mind you know. And some little quirk of fate had intervened that made it more profitable to rescind this. I don't mean money wise profitable, but it made it more profitable to the party.
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More politic yes.
R - To rescind this, and he said it just wasn't on. And then they expelled him. So I said well, if that's the case, if there is no freedom of conscience I have no time for them. So I never supported the Labour Party again and went into limbo. I went into limbo then for, oh years and years and years. I never took any interest in politics as such. Because you know, whilst I was in the mill, our mill owner, he put up for Parliament and he actually got in, Waddington. Well, I mean I worked for him and you come into contact with him occasionally and he was always a gentleman. He used to walk through the mill and everybody, you know the grape vine went round “Waddie's in!” He was better known as Waddie, you know? Of course you knew then to be on your best behaviour. But actually he put up for Parliament
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and he got in. He got a knighthood and he said that were what he had been working for. But that was by the way. Well at that time I was rather bitterly opposed to the capitalists then, having worked for them. I knew the conditions we worked under, and there were several things happened in the mill you know that really upset me. I can give you cases that personally affected me. Shall I give you the…
Yes, do so John. Yes do so, yes.
R- Well, let me say this now. I was working in the mill and I would be about what, 19 or 20. No, I'd be more than that, I'd be about 22 or 23. But I was working in the mill and I was running a machine what they call the willow. But there was an old man on a machine who got a wage of about £2/17/6 a week known as a scutcher. Chris he was called. Now Chris became 70 and of course he’d qualify then for the old age pension so when he became 70 the manager sent for me and he says “Greenwood”, this is how they addressed you in those days, “You'll go on to that
scutcher on Monday.” You see, I had been running, like we had two but one only
ran part time and of course I could run this. And mind you at this time I'd got my City and Guilds for cotton spinning you know, 1 had been going to night school and all this kind of thing. And I said what’s happening to Chris? Because it struck my conscience straight away, an old fellow, 70, were they going to sack him? “That's nothing to do with you, you'll go on to there.” So 1 said well if you say so, yes.
“Your wage will be 2 guineas a week.” I said it's £2/17/6 on there. “Your wage will be 2 guineas a week, take it or leave it.”
What year would this be about? You were about 22.
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R – 23, well, we were in 1932.
Aye.
R- So I said well I don't know if I can accept. “It's no good you going to your union because you can either take it or go on the dole.” You see? Anyway I went to the union, to the union chappie, a chappie called Potts who actually went to jail afterwards for misappropriating Union funds. And all as he said to me was well, it’s better then the dole. And it rather shook my confidence in trade unions, he never even came down to argue with them or anything. Anyway the thing is that I went on this particular job and Chris went on to this odd job scutcher. I felt sick really, having to do it.
But there you are, you have got to do, I mean your father was dead and you were one of the bread winners at home.
R- Well, this was it you see.
Aye. It was a time of high unemployment. I mean, to put it in the modern phrase ‘They had you by the short hairs, John.’
R- They had indeed. But you see, this is one of the things that got my back up. There was another occasion in the mill, and there used to be in these days a great, shall I say, what word am I searching for? But there were people who were always running round the boss. I mean there is an impolite word that I’ll not use.
Yes, which we both know. Let's call it creeping.
R- Well all right then, creeping. Now it came to be that a senior, you know, a step up came vacant, somebody died. You were always waiting for dead men's shoes you know. And of course I wasn’t a particular boss's favourite, in as much as on more than one occasion when he's been doing a job I was watching and he used to tell me “I can manage this without thee looking on.” In other words they weren't prepared to show you anything. Because as I say, I’d got my City and Guilds and I was trying to get on. But there was this particular creep and this job became vacant. So of course, as I was senior I expected to be promoted you see? But anyway he promoted this creep. So I had a to do with Sir Robert Waddington, well, Robert Waddington. I said look Mr Waddington, the thing is this post has become vacant, I am the oldest and the next in line and I haven’t been given a chance. It’s not very nice when you are trying to get on, I’ve been going to night school and I use my knowledge trying to improve my job. And all as I got was “Well, I never interfere with this, I’ll have a word with him but I never interfere with overlookers you see.” So the thing was he came back and said “Oh, you are too small, you can’t reach the machines.” At 23! But anyway the thing is I didn’t get the job and these were the things that built up a little bit of resentment.
Understandably so John.
R- Now in 1937 one chappie came to me and he said “Oh, do you want to change?” But by this time I was what they call a stripper and grinder. What happened was you see that they re-organised this mill time and time again, and this creep, the overlooker of course had dropped dead and they got a new overlooker and they re-organised this mill. And the thing is that certain people, well they opened another, they opened Ilex and so certain people were drafted away.
They opened?
R - Ilex Mill. They opened this mill, same process you see and they transferred some of the operatives from Longholme to Ilex. Well I didn't go, I stayed at Longholme, because I would have a chance then of, well I mean I was doing very well. But the thing is that it came about that the, now what happened, I was stripper and grinder anyway and this particular creep had to go on this scutcher which he didn’t want to do. It were jolly hard work because they altered the types of material and it was really, you really earned your money. And when stripping and grinding came empty then I went to them and said now look, stripping and grinding, and it's my turn. Anyway I got it, and this creep went on but it came then that going to night school as 1 was, one chappie came to me and he said “Do you want a change?” I said well, it just depends on what it is. He said it would be carding ultimately. Which was the thing you were aiming at. But he said “It's a new process that we are putting in. I'm not telling you anything about it but it's your line of country. It’s like early days. We want you to start at such and such.” So anyway I gave my notice in. Well then, the managing director, Stanley Rothwell, you see Sir Robert had passed on. Stanley
Rothwell, it was called James Rothwell’s. He was the descendent of the
Rothwells. He sent for me to go in the office. He says “Oh Greenwood, I believe you are leaving us. I hope you know what you are going in to. It's an entirely unknown quantity.” And all this that and the other. I said yes Mr Rothwell, but it’s carding and I’ve been passed by. Because again you see,
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when this chappie dropped dead, they had one man worked for the firm as an under carder who left to take a chip shop. And the chip shop in Accrington wasn't doing very well at all and in the meantime he came back to Rothwells to see if there was anything that they could find him and they couldn’t. Now when this chap dropped dead they went and brought this chappie back from the chip shop you see, passing me over again, not giving you a chance. So he said “Well, you know we have a few mills.” I said yes, but what happens when promotion comes? You'll go and pass me over, I was passed over too often in this firm. He said “Well you know, you are comparatively young.” You see, you had to be an old fellow you know to be a carder. I mean, because the thing is I had my City and Guilds by the time I was 21 which was quite an achievement although 1 say it. He said you are comparatively young. I said that doesn't make any difference, the thing is if you have the knowledge and the confidence. But anyway he said “Well, I’ll tell you what we'll do. We’ll give you another 5 shillings a week if you'll stop.” I said Mr Rothwell, if you can give me 5 shillings now you could have given me 5 shillings all the time I've been on this particular job. No thanks. So he turned round to the manager, he says it seems he is determined to go, let him go. So this is one of the reasons why I had no love really for what you might call the upper crust you see. But of course in these days you were afraid of your job and you had to eat humble pie you know in places where you'd have, you felt like giving them a piece of your mind.
Ah it still happens John, it still happens but for different reasons. But then you eventually came round to being a Conservative yourself.
R- Well what happened was that I was married and we were settled down and we had a nice house comparatively. Mind you, by that time I'd got mill managing you see. I had worked my way around through various means, not stopping always in one place and getting a fair bit of experience, and I was a mill manager. And we lived in a locality and one chappie came to me, he said would you like to put up for the Conservatives? I said I didn’t know. I said the thing is although I'm interested in the Council, you know I always read all the goings on in the paper and I mean although I never made a point of writing to the papers I felt like it many times, to the local paper. And he said we have had a talk and we think you'll make a good councillor. So I said I wouldn't give a decision now, I’d talk it over with my wife you see. And we had a chat about it and she said well if you feel like it, you'd like to have a do, all right I'll
back you. Well I was there you see. So, anyway the occasion arose and he said “Well, there is no immediate election or anything like that. We are just trying to line up candidates.” So I said “All right, my wife's in agreement, she'll support me, and so I’ll stand.” Now, the occasion arose when there was a by-election. The Mayor elect, who was a Socialist of course, we had a Socialist Council, was up for election in as
much as there used to be a by-election because they’d made him an Alderman then. .
You sees if a chap was elevated to an Alderman he served then as an Alderman for five years without having to go to the electorate. And of course when they were elevated like this it made a vacancy for a councillor. The Mayor elect, he represented a ward in Waterfoot and of course when this by-election came the chappie, the sponsor if you want an expression for it, he came to me and he said “Now there is
going to he a by-election and we're inviting you to stand in Central Ward. I said fair enough. Anyway the thing was that the Mayor elect decided he’d stand in Central Ward you see. Not in the ward he represented you see so he came and oh dear me! Of course they
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held the Mayor in far more esteem than they do now. And I know my wife and myself, we stopped up one morning while 2 AM writing all these addresses, and I did not get any support from the Party. Of course I mean I was raw, and I went round canvassing and a friend of mine said to me, “Well John, I would willingly have voted for you but on this occasion I think I must support the Mayor. You are putting up against the Mayor.” I said no, let’s get this straight he’s putting up against me. I was selected to stand for the Conservatives in this ward and the Mayor has come out of
another ward into this ward because he thinks it’s a walk over with a new recruit. And quite honestly, he has got my hackles up.” He said “Well, I’m sorry Johnny but I shall have to support the chain.” And actually the thing is that at the night of the counting, I’ll never forget it, they started counting the votes and there was a councillor there, a Conservative who were a bit of a lad and he went up to the counting desks, he said “I'll lay two to one if anybody wants to make a bet as Greenwood's in!” Because as the boxes were coming in there was a majority. And anyway, his wife went right pale, she'd to go and sit down, and they’d to go and get her some water. Because, you know he was an established, he thought he was the establishment, he was the leader of the Labour Party and all these kind of things and the thought of being knocked out by a novice… But anyway, at the outcome when all the boxes came in off the estate that threw me out. But he only got in by 48 votes you see.
It weren't a bad show John, for a novice.
R- Well. But this was it, as I said, if the party had rallied round me and helped me I could have been in. But again, the chain had a certain influence, even among the Conservatives.
Yes, yes.
R- You see in a lot of cases they used to withdraw their candidates and give them a free run. And because he’d had to fight in the elections, you know they give speeches after the count, he who is elected. And when it came to say his few words, his first words were “This has been a dirty election.” you see and he went on with his tirade and all this that and the other so I said “Just a minute, I'd just like to say that on my part I've not done anything, or said anything in this election that could be construed as dirty. What others have said is no concern of mine but I have fought this cleanly and I object.” Oh I got quite a reception you see? Because I mean it did raise, it showed his attitude of mind because a lot said to me afterwards that he wasn’t fit to be Mayor if he can talk like that.
They should have thought about that when they were voting for him shouldn't they.
R- Well, there was a remark that's always stuck in my mind, and it was made to me by a chappie who was a Labour Councillor, but he was genuine you know what I mean? He said “John, you know the election result, Greenwood got in, Platt lost, but the chain won.” You see if he hadn’t been the mayor elect he’d have lost it.
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