THIS TAPE HAS BEEN RECORDED ON AUGUST 28TH 1979 AT 13 WHITEHEAD STREET, RAWTENSTALL. THE INFORMANT IS JOHN GREENWOOD, FORMER MANAGER AT SPRING VALE MILL. THE INTERVIEWER IS STANLEY GRAHAM.
So we’ll continue with picture 80.
R- This to my mind, you know, is a really remarkable picture, in as much as you have got a close-up of the spindles and you can actually see the vibrations of the threads. You see, the whole thing, as I have said before, about spinning is that the yarn is twisted on its own axis. And you can actually see it happening here in as much as the spindles are not vertical, they are inclined at an angle and that angle is of course specifically measured, it’s not just any haphazard angle, it's specifically measured for the type of material that we are spinning. And it can be altered of course but this particular angle that these are set at has been found to be okay for this type of thing and you can actually see the vibration of the thread as it slips off the end. As the spindle revolves it slips off the end, and you can see the vibration of the thread in the photograph itself and I think it’s a really remarkable photograph. And if you look along the top of the spindles, some of them you can nearly see it slipping off you see with the result that this vibration is set up and this is where you get that ooziness in the thread, in as much as while it’s vibrating like that it's shaking out the ends of the fibres, tie shorter fibres, and you get the fullness. And that’s the secret of mule spinning is this fullness of the thread you see.
Yes, that’s it, yes.
R – And I think that’s a remarkable photograph is number 80. Right.
Yes. I’ll see you get one John. No but I’m going to say, you’ll get some of these pictures don't worry.
R - Oh but. And now, picture number 81 shows Jim finding a thread that's been lost. You see, in other words the thread's snapped and it's buried itself into the centre of the cotton that's already on, and you can see him lifting the thread up so that he can piece it up to that which is already hanging on the carriage.
And of course he's got to stop that spindle to be able to do that, hasn't he?
R- Oh yes. Oh he's got to stop it, yes.
So that’s why his finger is at the bottom, he's putting a brake on that and it'll slip underneath, the band was slipping.
R - He is holding it yes. They are driven by string you know from centre of the carriage. In the centre of the carriage there is a tin roller and that tin roller is the driver to the bands that drive the spindle wharves. And of course the point is that there is two ways of putting twist in, there is what we call twist way ‘S’ which is clockwise and there is ‘Z’. No, I'm going the wrong way around aren't I, it’s so long since I was in, there's S and Z now, but it used to be twist way and weft way.
That’s it.
(5 min)
R- Now weft way was anti-clockwise, and twist way was clockwise. Because why twist way and weft way? When cotton ripens in the field, I don't know whether you know it or not, but the fibre is solid. And then as the moisture dries out it collapses and by a strange freak of nature the fibres all curl clockwise. In other words instead of being a round cylinder it collapses, it curls and they all curl clockwise. And it's a strange thing is that, and this is why when we talk about twist and weft if you put twist in twist way you see, which is clockwise, in other words the same direction that the fibre itself is twisted, you get a stronger yarn than what you do if you do it anti-clockwise. But on the other wise, on the other hand, if you do it anti-clockwise you get a fuller yarn you see. And this is one of the reasons why in the trade we talk about twist and weft.
Aye, fascinating.
R- Aye. Because twist is the same direction as the natural twist in the fibre. Now by virtue of the bands on this central tin roller being put on in a certain way, the spindles will either go clockwise or anti-clockwise. And if they go clockwise of course the thing is that it gets, it is a stronger yarn. Now picture number 82 is a photograph of the headstock and on this particular photograph you can see what we call the quadrant. Now the quadrant is the mechanism that does the winding when winding the yarn on to the pirn, when the carriage's running in. Because you can see a chain, you can see a quadrant arc and its arm and then you can see a chain going into the headstock. Now that is actually wound on a drum connected to the tin roller. So, what happens is that, as the mule’s coming out, that chain is wound up you see. Then when the run is complete and the carriage is going in that chain is stationary, held by that arm which of course pulls it up the drum and causes the spindles to reverse into the opposite direction and wind the yarn on you see. And of course the thing is the teeth govern the length of the, shall I say, well the length of take off you see. Because you see again we find out that when you are winding on you have got to wind a little bit tighter on what we call the nose. That's where the yarn meets the pirn. We have got to wind a little bit tighter to stop it slipping off you see. And you'll see this arm protruding which presses down on the chain as it's going in and it just makes it go that
little bit tighter. Now 83 is the other side of the headstock which shows what we call the copping plates. In other words you'll see there are two sets of plates here at the front.
Just one thing John. Sorry to interrupt you but later on there in some close up pictures of the copping plates and the builder.
R- Oh well then…
When we get further on and the bootleg as well so that’ll be easier for you to explain.
R- Oh well, I'd better explain, but anyway it's just the other aide of the headstock is 83. Ah Taylor Lang Limited. Picture number 84 is just a. nameplate although the date is not shown on these. But if you, the date is usually on the end of the machine and if you looked at them you'd find out they are about 1903.
Yes. Well these actually, this one isn't Jim’s mule, it's on the top floor and this one actually I think is 1919. Yes I think one of them's a bit later up there
R- Oh aye, yes. Ah well then, picture number 85. Oh I could tell you a story about these. I mean, you know…
Well yes, I mean where do you stop with picture number 85?
R- There it's, it's the real picture of mechanism there, you have got the first pair of pulleys which are the carriage pulleys, that narrow strap I have mentioned previously and then you get the three pulleys for the twist strap which is an inch wider than the carriage strap.
Yes. Of course one thing that I should point out, this was taken during the holidays and that's why the straps have been knocked off to let then take up again.
R- That’s right.
Yes because it was the only time when the mules were stopped and I could get in close enough to them. But, the thing is I don’t think that you really need to go too deeply into all the mechanism John because I mean there are good books like Catling’s ‘The Spinning Mule’ which can tell anybody who is really interested in the mechanism. But in't it, is that fine spinning?
(250)(10 min)
R- Yes. No, this is condenser spinning which is a trade on its own.
Ah, it’s a different headstock altogether.
R- Oh yes, definitely. They only have two pulleys.
Oh. Yes now, if somebody wanted to know all about this is there a standard work on them? There isn't ?
R- No there isn’t. No there isn't a standard work at all you see. This is a …
Aye. Oh we are going, I can see there’s going to be a bit of a job for you somewhere then.
R- Ah well, there isn't a standard work on it at all, only mine in my notes and those are written.
Is that right? Aye.
R - No there isn't a standard work.
Oh, I shall have to talk to you about that, the only…
R- Well now, picture 86. Again this shows further mechanisms on these. You see this long rod that you can see here is to stop the mule at any part of the length. They extends the whole length at both sides so that by virtue of pulling the rod they can either start the mule or stop it. Because through the levers it causes the straps to go on to the fast pulley and so on.
Yes. Tell me something John, do you know whether it's true or not, I have heard it said that the headstock of a mule contains every mechanical motion known to engineering, and it seems to me that it could very well be right. Because I mean there's everything in there isn't there. You know levers, chains.
R- Well if you are going to, aye if you are going to say that you have got the whole lot, you have got clutches you have got spur wheels, bevel wheels, clutch wheels, friction clutches, tooth clutches ...
Scrolls, shafts and levers.
R- Oh, there is a thousand and one levers. Because you see that's what I say, the point is that even on the carriage run out you've got to a point where certain levers come into operation to bring in the second speed. And then when it's gone so much further certain other levers come into play to bring in the third speed. And then when you get to the back, that’s when the carriage is to the [full] extent all these levers have got to be neutralised to bring in the big friction wheel that you can see at the back which is called the backing up friction you see. And levers bring that into being which causes the fallers to come down you see and get into the winding position. Then that's immediately thrown out, and there's another clutch down here what we call the drawing up friction which is a dish clutch. You see that pulls a mule in you see. But by virtue of what is pulling the mule in of course that chain, as I have already said is unwinding from the drum and causing the spindles to wind. Oh yes, it's a very complicated piece of machinery, oh there is the copping plates. There are the copping plates. Now what happens is that every time the mule comes out you see, there is a little what we call the pig tail in a lever and it comes out and every time it comes round it catches a catch, which causes that worm wheel you see, that pawl and ratchet to turn one tooth or two teeth as the case may be.
Yes, that’s the builder isn’t it.
R- And when that turns, that worm, it causes that block to travel. Now attached to that block in the shaper plate is the rail, shaper rail. Now the shaper rail end rests on the shaper plate so as that block moves it causes that shaper rail to move up the shaper plate and that is actually the profile of your cop you see. But you can see and it's specially planed you know to specific limits. Now this is what we call the winding-on section. In other words those are the binding turns. When it’s going down they are coarse turns you see that bind the yarn on itself. And then you get the long trailer, long trail which is the ordinary winding on. In other words, these, the short plate are the locking turns so that you can build up a solid cop. Because they are coarse and go down quickly, whereas this layers it, kind of layer on layer.
Yes, that’s it. And as the carriage come back - tell me if I'm right or not - the profile of this rod, this shaper.
R - Shaper plate.
Shaper plate. Well shaping rod, the rod itself or the copping rod as Jim calls it controls the position of that bootleg doesn't it?
R- Well, the bootleg rests on there.
Runs on that.
It actually runs on there and according to the profile of that
Yes, the bootleg.
R- The shape is transmitted to the fallers.
That's it, yes,
R- In other words the fallers rise according to the bootleg, and as the bootleg travels up that profile of course that motion then is transmitted to the actual winding on ...
Yes, to the actual, yes for winding.
R- You see, and as that’s altered of course every draw, The position of that shaper plate alters.
Yes. That's it, aye.
R - And again, you have got one that, I think that it's this one, this one forms the base of the cop.
Yes that's right.
R - In other word you know, how it tapers at the bottom. And then comes parallel. Well now, this forms the base of the Cop.
Yes, that's what Jim said.
R- And then when the base of the cop is formed and you're starting to build the cop, that comes out of action because…
So that’s the shaper plate that’s nearest to the right hand side on pictures 88 and 89?
(400)
R- That's it. Because what happens is that that stud apparently gets to a position where it ceases to function beyond a holder because this then takes over you see because it's higher than that. So that the angle you know is…
Yes, that’s it, yes. Immensely complicated.
R- Aye. Oh it is. Ah, there you are, there that’s they that's picture 90, that shows the shaper mechanism.
Once again, John, I should just point out, I mean this isn't for you obviously, this is for the anybody that’s listening to this tape, that the thick rope on the floor that you can see is nothing to do with the mules, it's a rope which was being stretched by the rope splicers between two pillars. So it's nothing to do with the mule. Because ropes do play a big part in the operation of the mule don't they?
R- Oh they do indeed. Because you can see the pulley, now this is the rim band
Yes. That's the double rope we can see on picture 90.
R – Yes, that drives your spindles.
Yes, on picture 90.
R- Picture 90. It drives your spindles. Actually it goes round the tin roller you see. It goes round the tin roller. But like I said when the chain is driving the spindles for winding on purposes this is running free on a clutch, you see.
Yes. And that's going to be put in and out of gear each time, yes aye.
R- Yes. But that rim band of course, they reckon if a rim band lasts six months it's done a long time. But you see you can't afford to let that slip, because if you do you see the twist per inch in the yarn is governed. Now, if your twist band is slipping you are not getting the twist that you should have.
Yes. I think Jim said that if you have a tight rim band it's worth an extra tooth on your builder ratchet.
R- Yes, aye.
He did say that and I think he said that an old spinner once told him, and he has always done it, never to have the rim band too tight, but rather to put a, have a tooth less on the builder ratchet. Because he said it’s very easy to tighten it very, very tight but he said if you do your bands don't last as long and he said it's better to balance it out between the two.
(450)(20 min)
R- There's another point too, that if you have your rim band too tight it can affect your spinning. Because you see, the thing is that these types of mules have what we call twist on the head. In other words, when it's finished its drawing out the mule remains stationary until the necessary number of turns have gone in which is controlled by cams you see. So it’s twisting on the head. Now you get it very tight and you'll hear it buzz you know, giving a loud hissing noise which means that the vibration, if the quality of your material is not so good it'll just snap off. And I've seen it happen dozens and dozens of times.
Yes. And another thing that Jim said about that was something that you were talking about then, when it does that winding on the head. He said occasionally, and I've forgotten what he said caused it, he said "It'll go over and wind again''. And, because he said to me “There is one thing you haven't got yet, a picture of a sawney.” And I said I'd like a picture of one but I don’t want to be there when it happens. And he said we have them quite regularly. But he said one thing that can cause it, when the twist mechanisms can sometimes go over a second time. And he said there is nothing you can do to stop it once it’s done it, he said you just stand there and watch them all pop out and he said it's a rotten feeling to watch them all pop out all the way down.
R- Well, number 91 is a good picture of the boot leg. Now the boot leg is attached to the fallers as you can see and it actually rests on the copping plate, the shaper plate, the shaper rail. It actually rests on, you can see that the profile of that shaper rail is transmitted to the fallers you see which guide the yarn. Picture 92 is just the mule at rest. You can see the slack bits of yarn on the pirns because the thing is it takes those up. If we hadn't those, when that mule started out it would break all the ends down you see because that just gives it that little bit of shall I say slackness before it starts drawing out. Otherwise if you started to try to draw or spin yarn, it would snap you see?
Yes. It backs off a little bit doesn't it up there? When it gets into the carriage, all the spindles stop, and just turn backwards a little bit to give you that little bit of slack before it comes away doesn't it?
R – Aye. That’s it yes.
And then 93 was just with the door open to show the spindles.
R- To show the spindle wharves, yes. That’s where the band goes. Or whorls, some call them whorls but we call them wharves. Now your spindles notice are held at two places, that’s the footstep and the bolster. Yes, that’s the bolster. That's where all the strain is in as much as you can see that when the pirn gets full there's a fair pull, and it's whirling round there's a fair pull on there. And there's the footsteps, they have to be oiled at least once a day.
And the last picture is an extremely dull and uninteresting picture after that of well there, you tell me what it is now.
R- Well, that’s the bale store.
Bale store.
R- And at one time, which I believe doesn’t happen these days I've had a thousand bales in there, I've had a thousand bales in from all over the world, Russia, China, Switzerland, Brazil, America, Peru, Italian, French, and Russian. In point of fact those are nearly Russian bales.
There were some Russian bales about.
R - Aye, those are ...
Yes those bales that are just behind the store, where the fork lift is there. Yes, there were some Russian bales about. Now tell me John, do Whitakers send some out you know, for other people to process when they have blended it? Does some go out.
R- Well it's a line that never really caught on in as much as we used to do. And several people have tried our material, but you see we were always too costly, in as much as, although I say it, it was good stuff that went in. You see at one time I can remember the time, oh it used to be a real nightmare did this blending because I mean it were your responsibility. And of course, the thing is they expected a good spin with good efficiency from the mill. And of course you know the Lancashire saying, “You can’t make a silk purse out of a sow’s ear.” Well they used to expect it and it took years and years to educate the powers that be that they didn’t know everything about waste. And I was very happy in the later years to be consulted in as much as I used to get the complaints. I mean, so often the directors would come to me and say I wasn’t using enough of so and so’s waste or not enough of this quality or that. Until I took it into my head towards one of them and told him that if he’d give the word in writing I’d put it in with pleasure. But I wouldn’t accept for one minute any responsibility for how it spun. And of course it was the usual blah, blah and I told them quite straight, the quality isn’t good enough to spin what they expected me to get out of it. They told me it cost to much and I said well you can’t spin cost.
That wouldn’t be allowed for. That’s a good one, You can’t spin cost, yes.
R- Gradually they were educated and I mean educated into consulting the chap on the shop floor and it got to be that in, oh I should say the last 10 to 15 years of my time there I had one chap over me. I mean I wasn’t always the factotum who used to do this job, and he got other duties. But you see he never did the buying, the directors always did the buying and it got to the point where they used to send me the samples you see. They’d send a sample over to me or call me in to the central office. “Will you come across, we have got some samples, we want your opinion.” And do you know we romped on afterwards although I say it. I mean I'm not boasting but the thing is now it gives me great satisfaction when I go in as I do, “When the hell are you coming back!” You know what I mean? Because well it was in my own interest. You kept your spinners happy, you got your production you see.
Well, that’s the name of the game isn’t it. You earn it off the looms.
R- The point is that there is no good putting rubbish in because it's cheap you see. And if you put cheap stuff in, let’s say for argument sake it's 2p a pound cheaper than a better quality. But your production drops by 10%. And your finished product is 80 pence a pound. You’re losing 8 pence to save 2 pence.
Which is had business apart from anything else.
R- Oh it is bad business. And not only that you see, there is dissatisfaction right through the mill because it won’t card properly, it won't spin properly, bad spinning's bad weaving and bad weaving's bad cloth and bad cloth's a dissatisfied customer.
One thing, tell me about one thing if you will please John. What interested me when I was talking to Jim. And he said that, I asked him, the question I asked him was tell me Jimmy, sometimes when I go up your creel is full of bobbins all the way down and other times when I go up there are very few bobbins on. And he started smiling, he said well, that all depends on what sort of bobbins are coming round on the rack. And he said that at one time they had what he thought was a very good system. He said every three months they used to reverse the direction of the bobbin rack. because that meant that the people who had been getting the mucky end of the sticky after they had all been picked over got the clean end of the stick. But he said they don't do that now. Now do you know who instituted that, it seemed to me to be such a good idea you know, you know to even things out for them. Because human nature is human nature, and you can see them taking the good bobbins you know if they are there. And who instituted that idea John, is it a general practice?
R- That’s lovely! I did.
Well, I didn’t know but I thought it might be.
R- I did.
Now tell me about it because that seemed sensible to me.
R- Well, it’s like this you see, that if you get a bobbin that's had three ends down and it's been readied as we've afore mentioned, it can be a small bobbin which might be a third full, it might be a half full or it might be two thirds full. But you see as a bobbin builds up, the diameter increases, so that the thing is that instead of say taking two half size bobbins to make a full one it actually takes about four due to the full ones increased diameter. And you see, so that the chappie who has to have all the, what we used to call bits or small bobbins, he is putting four bobbins in his mule to the other chappie’s one. Which means that his mule is stopped four times more often than the chappie who is putting the big ones in.
(650)(30 min)
Yes, he’s losing draws on his clock.
R- And he is losing draws, because they are on piece work and this was a point. And so, every so often when I was manager, 1 used to go to the mule overlooker Arnold. “Arnold, clean all those bits off.” And he would go round those small bobbins, and held take say so many to every mule until there wore none at all on that rack, and we’d start from scratch you see. And then everybody got some because there were bits on that nobody would take, and I've seen then be going round for a couple of months until I would have to go and see Arnold. But he didn’t like doing this because it brought him into disfavour with the spinners. But this was it you see, but it was a system that worked and then again I used to get the thing reversed. About every three months I used to get the mechanic across to turn it round and then the chappie who was last became first you see.
That’s it yes. Well as I say it seemed to me to be a sensible idea but he said that they don't do it now and when he enquired about it somebody told him that there was something wrong with one of the bearings but it sounds to me like a bit of a tale.
R- Ah well.
I thought that but it seemed such a sensible idea you know to reverse it so that…
R- Well it’s what it used to be. And because I used to have it turned round. But I mean, you tried to be fair with everybody, I mean they are all there to make a make a wage you know.
Yes, and apart from that wouldn't you say a satisfied man, you've more chances to get a good job out of him?
R- Oh yes.
And as I say, that is the thing which strikes me over and over again about both weaving and spinning, in that everybody relies on everybody else.
R- Well they do, they do. Because let's look at it this way, that right from the very beginning on the scutcher. Where the laps have to be a specified weight, you see, I mean I need to make a point of going round and I had, I mean you can automatically in your mind’s eye tell when one lap is suspicious. And I’ve gone round many a time, “Put that lap on the scales.” And it’ll be out and of course the chap got a rollicking. What’s the good of us having a system if you were going to please yourself? Now look, either do the job right you see and then everything's gone all right for a time. But you see, if it’s wrong at the beginning, you can't right it right through.
(700)
That’s it yes.
R - And again you see the thing is that the cards particularly were what we called wrapped every day, in other words you took a specified length and it had to be a specified weight. Now those were done meticulously every day, if one was varying a bit, for instance if the chappie on the scutcher had been a little bit lax you had a chance of catching up with him you see. But if you didn't do it, only once a week…
Yes. A lot of bad stuff would go through.
R- It would have gone through and then they’d come across, they'd come on the phone from the other mill “What’s your wrappings like, we’re getting thick and thin places.” Then when you go across there you found out they had put some wrong cops in you see. Instead of being sixes they'd put fours in you know?
Aye. I know something that, one of the things that impressed me when I was talking to Jim in particular was the fact that when he was talking about getting the bits off the bobbin rack, the reason he gave, the first reason he gave - and quite obviously to him the most important - was that he said “If you get a very short bit, it's all right but many a time they have to be readied down that much they are very, very short. And he said that is bad card tenting. Because if they’d watch the card they wouldn’t get that. And he gave the reason why he didn’t like the short bobbins was the fact that he said that means that you can have sometimes two piecings in one cop.
R- Oh yes, quite easy.
And that’s in thirty cops. And he said those piecings are the bits that give trouble to the weaver. And he said that's like sixty mistakes you've given sixty chances of a break to the weaver. Whereas with luck he says you can get a lot of cops off with no piecings in at all. Or at the most one, but if you have got a very short bit that you have got to put on your creel and run off it's quite possible if you've just changed it at the beginning of, say shortly after doffing, you can have two of those in the cop. And if you are going to get mistakes, those are the most likely places to get them.
R- Oh they are. Yes.
Where you’ve pieced on the creel.
R- Yes, right.
(750)(35 min)
And it impressed me that that was the first reason he gave. Not the reason that it meant stopping and creeling up again because as he said, we know it takes longer but really it doesn't take long to creel a bobbin up. That's not the main thing, the thing is that the longer it lasts the more cops you can send through without piecings.
R- Well, you look at it this way, we used to have one particular spinner and he used to say when the bobbins are full just cross the ends over the two side sides and let it run and let it build up into like, not a cone shape I don’t mean acorn shape but run over the flanges you see. Well, if you did that it took it in and it made it so that you’re getting the bobbin about…
Like built up warps, yes well we used to have built up warps. Yes.
R- Yes, like a built up warp. That’s it. And he used to say that if he got a good set of these he could forget about that mule for that day you see. And so we used to make them specifically for him. But the whole thing was you see that when the other spinners saw this you see, they wanted to jump on the band wagon and then the thing is that there was some dispute again about bits you see and we had to stop it. But I thought it was a good idea because it gave the card tenter less creeling, it made less piecings In the weft and so long as they were happy the bobbins ran all right you know.
Were they any wore liable to damage?
R- Oh certainly, yes. Aye in the handling because after all when you’re lifting them up you see, some people will grab the flange. Well, if you press your thumb into the end threads it's liable when it's unwinding to constantly be a source of trouble.
Yes. Anyway John, I think you have been a complete gentleman with me this afternoon as usual, and I think we'll stop this tape there and thank you very much, once more.
SCG/02 September 2003
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