THIS TAPE HAS BEEN RECORDED ON THE 25th of JULY 1979 AT MARY WILKIN’S HOME, 10 MOORVIEW IN SALTERFORTH. THE INFORMANT IS MARY WILKIN, WEAVER AND THE INTERVIEWER IS STANLEY GRAHAM.
[SG note: Mary Wilkins was arguably the best weaver in Bancroft Shed. Her husband didn’t agree with the fact that I was interviewing her and there was some obstruction.]
Now I’m going to start this tape. What I’m going to do Mary is to just ask you a few questions. Normally I do a complete tape of people right from when they were born but, and this might make you laugh, but you are just not old enough Mary and that’s it. We’ll go through your early life quickly. But I want to talk to you particularly about working: at Bancroft, weaving at Bancroft and then we'll go through the pictures another day. Now then, how old are you?
R - Thirty-eight. [Born 1941]
And where were you born Mary?
R- Salterforth.
And you live In Salterforth now?
R – Yes.
And whereabouts were you born in Salterforth?
R - There used to an old cottage up at t’side of the Anchor Inn, pulled down now.
On the canal bank?
R – No. It’s at this side of the Anchor, village side of the Anchor.
And you wore born there? And what did your mother do?
R – Well, she were a policeman's daughter. I don’t know, she work on the farm a bit, worked a bit at Rolls, a bit at a cake shop and a bit at Silentnight you know.
Aye. And what did your dad do?
R - Oh I don’t know.
So you were brought up just by your mother? Where did you go to school Mary?
R - Barnoldswick.
Aye. That's right, Barlick, which school?
R - Gisburn Road and then Modern school.
Aye. And you left there what year?
R - Oh heck ... 1956 I think.
Nineteen fifty six?
R - Yes, it would be.
And when you left school .. what jobs were there in the town that you could have gone to?
R- Oh mostly all textiles.
Hold on a minute .. 1956?
R - There were a lot of mills round here.
Wait a minute, 1956, you couldn’t have left school in 1956 ...
R - I did! I were married in 1959.
Nineteen fifty-six ... And how old are you?
R - Thirty-eight.
Oh I'm sorry Mary, I'm sorry, I thought you said 48.
R - Thank you very much for that!
I'm sorry Mary, I thought you said ... (Mary's dog barks)
R - That's what Susie thinks about that.
(100)
I thought you said 48. Right, well that's OK then, so you left school in 1956.
R - Fifty six.
What jobs were open to you in town then?
R - Oh ... well mostly textiles. Textiles, I went to work at Armorides for a bit then I left Armorides and come to work at Salterforth. I learned to weave at Salterforth. I left Salterforth and went down to Booth and Speak at Earby for six months and come back to Salterforth.
So you learnt to weave at Salterforth. What sort of jobs did the ... did you have any career advice, you know, when you left school.
R - No I don’t think so, not like there is nowadays. No, you take your pick you know?
That's it. Now how old were you when you went to Slaters?
R - Sixteen.
When you went to Slaters to learn to weave did you go under an apprenticeship scheme or anything like that?
R - No I just went.
Yes. Had you ever been in the mill before in your life?
R- No.
And when you went there how were you taught, who taught you?
R- Eh, a weaver taught me. Just learn ... Well, just see for yourself and pick it up you know. She showed me, watch and learn, so to speak you know?
Aye, just as we used to do at Bancroft in other wards. So you'd go with a weaver on, what were they on there, eight looms or ten?
R - Eight looms.
Eight looms.
R – No, were they eight? Six? Eight I think. Eight yes.
Aye. And what were they weaving? What sort of stuff?
R - Rayon and then they moved on to silk, filament silk.
Yes. And what was the wage then?
R- Oh heck. I started on two pound fifty, that was me learning wage. Two pound, two pound fifty, two pound ten shillings.
Two pound ten shillings, that's it, aye. And how long was it before you got on looms of your own?
About a month.
R- I went on two loom I think. Two, four looms, sommat like that. I had two or else four looms, I can't remember. Four I think.
What did you think about weaving when you were learning. You know, what did you, what were your impressions of weaving when you were learning.
R- I quite liked it. It was noisy, it's only natural you know? Not exactly a clean job, a lot depends what sort of weaving you're doing. You know. It wasn't particularly, spun weaving, rayon weaving, it wasn't particularly dirty, a lot of dust ... filament silk could be dirty. You'd get your hands dirty you know. But a bit noisy. I quite enjoyed
It, I still do.
Aye well, it’s good to tell you enjoy it because, I mean, that's what makes you a good weaver. I meant to bring up Ernie Roberts’ tape and play it to you. You know what Ernie said about you on the tape?
R - No.
He said that you were the best Lancashire loom weaver he’d ever seen in his life.
R- Oh, blooming heck ...
So there you are. Anyway…
R- They weren't all Lancashire looms at Slaters you know? I weren’t on Lancashires all the time at Slaters.
What were you on there?
R- They had some Toyota automatics. I ran twelve of them for about ten years.
That was, now, ah well that’s when you came back to Slaters. You went, you were working at Slaters for how long?
R- I were there about two years and then I left for about six mouths.
Why did you leave?
R- Well, I lived down Earby then you see and I thought I'd be nearer, but I wouldn't really, I didn't like it..
So where did you go?
R- I went to Booth and Speaks.
That'd be Albion.
R - Albion now, yes.
What were you doing there?
R - Weaving ten loom there, ten Lancashires on filament silk.
Aye. And what sort of a wage, let's see, that’d be about 1958 would it? 1957?
(200)
R – No. About 1960 I think it’d be. Yes 'cause I were married, yes it’d be about 1960.
Ah well, so you must have been at Slaters for what then? Two or three years?
R- Two or three years before I left yes.
Yes. And what sort of a wage could you get when you went down to Booth and Speak’s?
R- About ten pound a week I think.
It sounds silly doesn’t it nowadays? About ten pound a week?
R- That were a lot of money then.
Yes aye. What sort of a shop was it down there compared with Slaters?
R- Oh I didn't like it, there were too much regimentation, “Don't do this” and “Don't do that” No, I didn't like it at all.
Were they weaving on the engine or on individual motors then?
R- I think it was on the engine, I think, I wouldn't swear to it. I can't remember rightly.
Yes, I think that engine was running in about 1958, something like that there .. fifty-eight.
R- I think so. There were belts anyway I do know that. Belts, yes.
Belts, aye, aye. And .. so you didn't stop there long. How long did you stop at Booth and Speaks?
R- About six months.
And then shifted back to Slaters, yes.
R – Slaters yes.
Yes. And how long were you at Slaters then?
R - Till they closed down, about ten years, ten or eleven years.
When did they close down?
R- Nineteen seventy two.
(10 min)
How many loom were they running then? Roughly?
R- Oh heck. Shed were full. Oh yes, shed were full. About four or five hundred loom I think, I don't know.
Aye .. And of course they were on motors by then, they'd done away with…
R- Not all motors, no not all on motors. Some might have .. mine were on motors, some automatics were on motors and one or two, odd ones were on belts. Like
some would have one side on belts and one side on motors. All the Lancashire looms were still on belts.
Yea. Aye. Were they being run by the engine or by electric motors on the shaft?
R - No, no, electric motor, electric motor.
Yes. Which would you rather have of the two? Wait a minute no, that’s, I’m jumping ahead a bit there. Now, when Slaters closed down of course you wanted a fresh job. So where did you go from there?
(250)
R – Well, I didn't want any work at all really for a week or two. I went up to .. ‘cause I had to go to the labour exchange to sign on .. and I told them I didn’t want any work. He says “Sorry, they want weavers up at Bancroft so you’ll have to go. You either had to go you see, or if you didn't go you wouldn't get no benefit. If you went .. and what arrangement you came to with them was up to you like ... So I went and .. told ‘em I couldn't start for a fortnight. I were going to have a couple of week off .. and 1 went to sign on for a couple of week, then started up there.
Aye. And that was in 1972?
R – Seventy two.
Aye. So you were there ...
R- Just over six year.
Just over six year, aye that’s it aye. And of course when you went to Bancroft you were .. you were working on looms driven by belts off the shaft driven by the engine, yes. And after you'd worked there.. Now, you know, having worked on .. all three systems really. I mean you worked on individual electric motors, electric motors on shafting and running off the engine. Have you any preference?
R- I'll say motors.
You preferred motors. Why is that?
R - Well, for a start you haven't got your belts have you? I mean that’s, a lot of people are frightened of belts, only natural, it's understandable isn't it. And I prefer motors, yes. You stop it and .. like you don't have to wait for all the lot to be running have you, if you’ve got your own individual motor.
Aye that's it yes.
R- See, you don't have to wait for all .. like at Slaters it were individual alleys, you didn't have to wait for the whole lot if your alley motor was running. And up at Bancroft you didn't have to wait, you had to wait for the lot going hadn’t you?
That's it, aye.
R- Well if you got your own individual motors you’re, you are on your own, and you can please yourself.
Aye. And what, how was working at Bancroft compared with Slaters?
(300)
R - Oh, worlds apart. I mean .. Slaters were modern. Well, I’m saying worlds apart… Slaters were modern, Bancroft were ramshackle, run down and nobody bothered but in a way they both had that same easy atmosphere you know, you were comfortable to work in. Like Manager at Slaters at Salterforth, he was a good manager, he’d let you go so far and he’d pull you up. Whereas up at Bancroft they didn't you see, they couldn't care less. So, of the two I preferred Slaters naturally, but I enjoyed working at Bancroft, until the latter end of course.
Which is the more important to you do you think, which is the most important, things being modern and clean, or you know, a good atmosphere to work in? You know? Easy atmosphere.
R - Well, I suppose it could be both ways can't it really. I mean, you want a modern atmosphere, it’s better for you in all ways really if it's a modern clean environment. But again it doesn't really .. if you are not going to like it there it's no good is it. I mean, I was happy up at Bancroft till the latter end and I am happy at Johnson’s.
Yes aye. Now then, when it got to, when it started to get to the far end at Bancroft of course, you finished before the mill closed down. Why did you finish Mary?
R - Wages job, it just got to a point didn’t it, and that were it.
Yes. When you say the wages job, now tell me what you mean. You know, tell me what was wrong with the wages.
R - Well it .. it was the holiday pay you know, you ended up with less for two weeks than you did for a normal week, so to say, in a way, you know?
Yes that’s it. That's the last time, obviously the last Summer holiday pay that you drew, there was a lot of trouble that year wasn't there because …
R - There were, you see we got three weeks wages, and it turned out to be less. Well, I fetched home for three weeks wages less than what I fetch home for a week's wage now. So I mean ... that was the last straw.
Yes aye. When you say it was the last straw, what other straws were there, what else nattered you then?
R – Well, it were gradually going downhill weren’t it? I mean, nobody were bothering, you couldn't get through to nobody, and Birtles weren’t, he
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(15 min)
were never there, he weren't bothered, Jim weren't bothered, so I mean it were dying on its feet weren't it? Natural.
Yes. That’s a good, that’s a good description of it Mary. I’ll ask you more about that in a minute or two you know, more about the things that were going wrong then. And then of course you went down to Johnson’s. Now of course you tell me what it's like working down at Johnson’s now, what the difference is between Johnson’s and Bancroft.
R- Well, for a start it's modern, very modern, clean, spotlessly clean. As far as a weaving shed, as far as you can keep a weaving shed clean. All you have to do is weave and your weft’s fetched for you, your empty bobbins are taken away for you, your waste's collected up, someone comes and takes your traps up. See, your tackler's always there, he is always in the shed, very rare you've to go looking for him, there's no waiting about you know, like no waiting for two or three days for a warp. Your warp's there within .. you've your looms running within half an hour more often
than not you see? I like it, it's clean, yes I really do, I enjoy working there.
Aye, yes. Fred [Inman] were telling me that you were going on well there. I'm glad you are. Now, weaving itself. Trouble is I've really no, you see I’ve never done any weaving you see and it .. all I can do is look at weaving from the outside. Weaving seems to me .. you tell me whether I’m wrong, weaving seems to me, the biggest part of a Lancashire loom weaver's job seems to me to be shuttling, filling shuttles and keeping shuttles going. Now obviously that isn’t all there is to it. Now, the best thing to do is, you take me through what’d be say a normal day’s work at Bancroft. You know, starting in the morning when you go there, what you'd do and ... you tell me a bit about weaving, and if there is anything I want to ask you I’ll ask you while you are going on.
R - Well we start work at Bancroft about eight o’clock in the morning. I get there for half past seven, you see in Summer it was all right whereas in Winter it were pretty horrible because there were no lights in the shed.
(400)
That’s it yes.
R – I had to get there soon, you'd to get yourself straight for the day, you had to take the empty bobbins away, two or three trips up to the top. [upstairs] ‘Cause all the weft were in trucks at the top of the shed. You had to take all your empty bobbins away and fill up with all your different sorts of wefts. Fill, you know, fill your weft tins up. You'd to do everything yourself up at Bancroft That’d take about a quarter of an hour
Up. Make sure you were straight, that your ends, any ends out, take them up. Oil your spindles ... must always oil your spindles. Stop and have a natter with me mates when they come in and get ready for eight o’clock ready for th’engine setting on then. And then ... when the engine got enough speed up, that took about five minutes, you set your looms on then, if you were lucky. Like you say a lot of it it's shuttling, if you are shuttling it can be boring but you are making your money if you are weaving. It means your looms are running all the time. If you are taking ends up, having traps
out and bunches out, your loom just stops so you are not making anything. That were more interesting for the weaver, plenty to do, keep ‘em occupied you know but like I say, you are not earning any money if your looms are stopped. You just carry on like that, best you can you know. Keeping your eye on your looms, always keep an eye on the back as well as the front, 'cause a lot of trouble can start round the back of your loom if you're not watching. And watch out for ends coming down, fill your shuttle, watch for owt dropping off or breaking off, anything. You go for your tackler then
right? If you could find him! And that was roughly what you do, and break for your dinner. A bit monotonous I suppose really you know but I enjoy it.
Aye. Well you skipped through weaving very quickly theer ...
R- Well you can’t really describe it unless you, you'd have to be there you see.
No. That's it. Well that's what the pictures are for. I mean we'll get into a better description then, but there were all sorts of problems connected with the way… Really Bancroft was an example of how not to run a weaving shed in many ways, wasn't it?
(450)
R - It was.
Now .. tell me what sort of problems did you get with the fact that you had more than one sort of cloth. I mean, at times you could have four or five or six different sorts of cloth in your looms. What sort of problems does that raise? I mean, they're weaving different and ...
R – Yes, they're weaving different, there’s thick-wefters and thin-wefters,
like at Bancroft it ranged from eights weft, which was very thick weft to
forty-fours, that was a fine weft. Different cloths, different warps, different
prices what you got paid for what you earned. The thick wefters you earned more off them, but you were shuttling more of course. It wouldn't run as long. You had to watch your weft, you'd different sorts of weft so naturally you’d to make sure you didn’t get your wefts mixed up. But basically it was the same you know. We just have to ...’cause some'd run a long time, some’d only run for two or three minutes.
Tell me something. I once remember Ernie telling me something about ... oh, it was something to do with the Shirley rotation. The thing was that if you've got ten looms that were all on the same sort of weft and they’re all running at the came speed, you can more or less get your shuttles running out in rotation couldn't you?
R – Well, if nothing went wrong I suppose you could but you can't rely on that, you've got to allow for ends coming down.
Yea, that's it, aye. Which were the worse sorts for ends coming down at Bancroft?
R – Forty fours definitely, one reds, they are a horrible cloth.
Is that right?
R - Sometimes, you are lucky, you get a good warp and .. but majority of them were terrible, they'd come down in bunches, there were too many ends in, there were too many ends in really.
Yes, and then another problem that we had at Bancroft many a time were the fact that they couldn't afford ... we were waiting for weft many a time weren't we. You were [stood waiting for a weft delivery]
R – Weft and warps and everything.
Aye, and stood theer with your looms empty. And tell me something, you tell me whether, again, whether it's right or not. Am I right in saying ... I seem to remember Jim telling me once that there were certain sorts that you were weaving, you were actually better off with a warp out than the warp in weren't you? You earned more money with the warp out than you did with the warp in?
R – Yes. One reds, things like one reds, ‘cause they were the lowest paid warps there were, one reds, yes. So you got an average for what you got paid for your waiting time, which weren‘t so much, you’d be better off. 'Cause I think what you used to get, oh ... it's
(500)
only about one pound, Oh, how much were that? About one pound forty I think a week on one reds. I think so.
Yes. And what were stopped time for a day?
R - Oh we used to get so much an hour, happen threepence or fourpence an hour, sommat like that. And it worked out if you had your, say one red, when we were on one reds, and stopped all week, you'd be better off ...
Yes I think it was about one pound forty-five a week or something like that wasn't it, stopped time?
R - Something like that.
I remember Jim on one of the tapes, we worked it out one day on one of the tapes and you are quite right, we worked it out and I think Jim did mention one reds. And .. well I mean, it's a bit of a beggar isn’t it when you get paid more for having t’warp out than having it in?
R – True.
I mean it shows how far the wage system was out of line. And then of course, there were little things like the fact that if you had a trap, unless it was a really bad one, you had it to take up yourself didn't you?
R- True.
What was the most usual cause of traps Mary?
R- Oh, pickers breaking, short leathers breaking, shuttles, the shuttle breaking, split and makes a mess. Fetch the warp out then. It could he anything really you know. Like I said, picker breaking. If sommat dropped off your loom, perhaps sommat to do with t’picking stick, picking shaft, anything could cause it. If you've got something fast in the shed, an end fast in the shed of this loom, your shuttle’d pick over and it could make a trap at the other side then as it went back in.
Would you say that Bancroft were worse for having ends down than, well, is it worse than say Johnson’s you know, where you are now?
R- Oh no. Not really, because at Johnson’s it's all gauze. It's not sized at all, there is no size on the majority of them at Johnson’s and if you don't watch ‘em they can be all chewed up before you know where you are. You can many a time have bunches out without looking you know. You can be, there’d be nothing there one minute and then by the time you’ve got back you have a bunch out. But no, it weren’t so bad at Bancroft, like I say, something like one reds, they were usually the worst.
(450
Which were the best sorts to weave at Bancroft.
R - They had no, no heading, they were stripes, two shades of grey and a white bit.
That Polyzone, yes. Yes, that Polyzone, yes, that Viscose.
R - Is that what they called it? Thick stuff, yes. Them were the best, them were the best pay up there, but they only used to last just over a week, well they did with me anyway. You used to get three or four pieces a week off if you had a good week. You kept them going because you knew you could earn it off them, get your money off them you know. Whereas you wouldn't bother so much with the one red.
Aye. That’s it, aye.
R- They call, what they call condensers, eights weft, some of them, they were good. Not all of them, some of them were.
Aye. Like a lesson for shed managers is this tape when you come to think about it.
R - They won't learn a right lot.
I don't know, I don't know, they could happen do with listening a bit. Another thing at Bancroft was, now how tight were Bancroft on faults in the cloth?
R- They were very lax, they were a bit too lax. After working somewhere like Slaters where you’d get told. He’d come round with little tickets, the manager would come round and tell you. They warn you and then you get fetched up, although ... they never bothered at all at Bancroft.
When you say fetched up ...
R - You're fetched up into the warehouse if your cloth was that bad. In you go to where the cloth were being looked and you'd .. they'd run the, this piece through while you were stood there. And if you went, like I say if they told you and told you and you still didn't get it fixed, and sometimes you couldn't get it fixed. Like you fetch your tackler and it, sometimes it took ages, you know you sometimes it weren't the
weaver’s faulty, sometimes it were a lot of this, I suppose a lot depends on what the weaver was like, but .. if you fetch your tackler and you said you've fetched
your tackler then the weaver isn’t really at fault you know?
Aye. Were you ever fetched up into the warehouse?
R - Oh I were at Slaters once or twice, yes, but not very often.
Did you enjoy it?
R – No, no. That's what I mean, it’s a sign of bad work isn’t it if you got fetched up you see? It were only a couple of times that's all. We’ll say they used to come, they used to be good cloth lookers there and they'd tell you that, any broken picks you’d get a ticket saying 'broken picks’ you know and it were up to you to get it seen to then. 'Cause like on a Toyota automatic see, they are running all the time, you’ve
Ten, there were ten shuttles. And while you are down there they can be running on [with an end down]along there you see, and you, you'll probably miss it. Where there’s a chance on a Lancashire. They've only two shuttles, they stop. You’ve a
chance of seeing it, you've more chance of catching a fault.
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That's it, yes.
R - You see, than what you have on a Toyota automatic loom.
Aye. Did you like the automatics?
R- I didn't mind ‘em. They were all pinned, pin warps, which meant there were some pins at the back there, back of your warps, which if you'd any ends down they just stopped your loom. Each end was in this, what they call a pin. And then if that, if any particular end goes down, or a bunch out, they'd drop. As your end comes down your pins were dropped and stopped your loom. [This known as ‘warp stop’, the equivalent on a Lancashire loom was ‘weft stop’ which only monitored the weft and not the warp.]
Yes, that's it, Aye.
(30 min)
R- But they didn't always work, sometimes like you'd have to fetch your tackler to get them fixed. That was the basic idea for the pins, to have not the ends running down.
Aye. The other thing, I know there have been times when you've had to get your own rollers and put them in haven't you.
R - Oh, up at Bancroft yes, you'd to be a Jack of all trades up at Bancrofts.
That's it. Have you ever known another weaving shed, or heard anybody talk about another weaving shed that was run like Bancroft? Do you know, where the weaver actually had to do everything for themselves?
R- No, not in this day and age. No, no way.
I mean the only thing that you didn't do at Bancroft, you didn't carry your own cloth out, you just chucked it on the floor and left it there for somebody else to pick up, but everything else you stood a chance of having to do, didn't you?
R - Yes you had to do it, yes. You did. Bancroft never come out of 1920s, it never came out of that age, it stuck there. Going into Bancroft were like going into another world, another age, in all ways, right down from t’steam engine to doing everything for yourself.
Right down to the toilets and all.
R- Right down to the toilets and all.
Aye. I mean, right fair, people won't believe me when I tell them that there were cast iron grills in the toilets so that the wind blew through to make it [uncomfortable]... but there were, there was wasn’t there Mary?
R - Yes, they wouldn't ...
I mean it’s just absolutely ridiculous.
R- Ridiculous. There were nothing up at Bancroft, no facilities for nowt. All you had was an old tea urn you could brew up. Sit at your loom, you'd have your dinner and if you've got, if you passed out you got carried out and thrown on the cloth.
That's it, aye. Well, there you are now, we are laughing but that happened to you didn’t it?
R- It did, yes.
Passed out at your job, so they just took you out, laid you on the cloth in the warehouse and the mill went forward.
R - On the cloth. On the way to the toilet. It did.
They'll not believe this Mary you know. In this day and age they'll not believe it. Anyway, you went straight from weaving at Bancroft to weaving down at Johnson’s.
[This story is absolutely true. I was there when it happened. Mary was poorly but had come to work and she developed such severe pain that it knocked her out. As soon as she was discovered she was laid out on a pile of cloth in the warehouse and the doctor was sent for. Dr. Love came into the engine house on his way into the mill and started to ask me questions about the engine, I had to remind him that we had a body laid out in the warehouse waiting for his attention.]
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R – Yes.
If by any mischance Johnson’s stopped weaving there, and you couldn't get another weaving job do you think you'd be interested in going to another job that wasn't weaving?
R- Well, I’ll have to do won’t I? I'd have to adapt and learn something else, there’d be no, there'd be no choice really, would there?
What is it about weaving that, I know you enjoy weaving on the quiet, you must do. I've watched you at your work anyway. What is it about weaving, what's the good thing about weaving?
R- Well from my point of view .. I mean I don't talk a lot at work, I mean .. you can't really talk in a weaving shed, it's too noisy. You're independent. Like it’s a piece work job but it's your piece work. I mean you aren't, you are not working in pairs, you don't have to rely on somebody else to make your wage, if you make a good wage or you make a bad wage, that's up to you. If you have your looms stopped and you are losing money that's your fault, you can't blame anybody else. It's ... I like it 'cause it's .. you have your own set of looms, nobody bothers you, you get on with your work, it's independence I suppose in a way, a bit of independence at work in a way.
How about the fact that you can see the results of what you’re doing rolling off the loom? You know, you can see the cloth? Has that got anything to do with it?
R - Well, a lot of that depends on what sort of weaving you were doing. If you were doing fancy stuff, like stripes and dobby tops, that would be interesting seeing what it’d come off like, but I mean down at Johnson’s it's just gauze, just plain gauze, nothing, nothing fancy at all about it. Because you know what it is going to, nobody's going to see it, it's not going to be, they use it for them people that are asleep anyway. [The gauze that Mary is referring to was for medical dressings.]
Aye, it’s just going to get bundled up and shoved inside people's guts!
R - Yes that's what it is, yes that's what it's for. So I mean, there is really no interest in it an regards watching the cloth come off.
Aye, that's it.
R - When you watch your cloth at Johnson’s you're just watching for ends coming down.
Yes. How much truth is there Mary in the thing that you often hear people say, that a weaver is just there to put other people's mistakes right?
R- (over talk and not clear)
You see, you said an interesting thing there about the fact that weaving depended on you. You know, you liked weaving because you are independent, it depended on you. But I’ve heard a lot of weavers say that one of the biggest troubles with weaving was the fact that you got the dirty end of the stick with everybody else's mistakes. In other words it didn't matter what other person it was in the mill, you know if it was the taper, the twister, the winder, if they made a mistake it finished up [with the weaver] it was you who had to put it right.
R- Yes. Oh that's true, if you get a bad warp in I mean, you are losing on it, the same with bad weft and like if there's any cloth sent back it's always the weaver who gets the can, they don’t stop to think, or they don’t blame the clothlooker for letting it go through which they shouldn’t have done. I mean there’s a lot of cloth used to come back up at Bancroft and weavers always got blamed for it while I think a lot of it were clothlookers letting it go through in the first place. They should have stopped it there and then before it got out of hand and told whoever they were selling it to that it’d be made right instead of going, having to have all that waste. Well, it's waste, isn’t it?
Well, it is yes. And of course there was always the argument then that the clothlookers were only in the same boat as anybody else because if they went to the management and said that there were certain faults coming up, I mean they were only interested when the cloth came back weren’t they?
R- They were at Bancroft. Yes.
Well that’s what we are talking about, Bancroft you know there were…
(35 min)
R- A good weaving firm, like I say, up at Slaters if there were anything wrong you got told about it. Whereas at Bancroft you didn’t. Very, very rare I’ve heard of anybody being fetched up at Bancroft. There must have been something pretty desperate for them to fetch them up. I think there were only one or two and what they got fetched up for I don't know.
Well, Bancroft's finished now and really, to all intents and purposes, apart from a couple of little shops that are still running, that means that weaving’s finished in Barlick. Now, what do you think about the fact that, you know, there was such a great dependence on weaving in Barlick, and places like Barlick, and now it’s all gone. What do you think about that, what do you think about the fact that the industry is just vanishing.
R- I think it’s a shame. But I suppose it's time isn’t it? Industry has changed. It's been allowed to run down hasn't it. Nobody's made any attempt to try and stop it. They’ve let this cheap import come in, that’s a lot of it I suppose. Higher wages put a lot of these little firms out, what didn’t want to pay or they couldn’t afford to pay the wages. It’s a sign of the time these days, nothing’s here to stay these days.
Do you think that really, one of the troubles is that, I get this impression time and time again that one of the troubles is that the textile industry has never been paid enough for what they turn out anyway. They’ve always been regarded as the Cinderella of industry. I mean, really, they’ve been under priced all the time. I mean, if they can’t afford to pay the wages they’re not getting paid enough for the cotton, you know what I mean.
R- No, that’s probably true, and then when you think about these cheap imports that’s coming in, ours was too expensive wasn’t it then? People were buying cheaper ones that’ll come in from like Hong Kong and India. British goods sort of, British cotton
would just be kept at one side because it was too expensive. You can't win whichever way.
So I mean, since you started in weaving, really, you’ve been used to working in an industry that you could see was sliding steadily into decline all the time. And I know that other people have said things to me about the fact that it was rotten to be working in an industry where you were never sure what was going to happen half the time. Have you ever had that feeling?
R- Not really, I don’t think about it. And if you start thinking about them things you never get nowhere would you? And I just get stuck in and get on with me job.
Aye. What do you think about while you're weaving?
R - Not much, get on with me work, it depends what there is to think about; I don't really think about a right lot. Nowt important, nowt ... things just come and go through your mind, day dream a bit if you have time but we haven't got much time at Johnson's like. But I don’t think about a right lot, I think about what’s going to happen on the next loom.
That's it, aye. If Johnson’s keep going will you keep weaving?
R- Oh yes. I think so. I like it there. As long as they'll have me I’ll stop there.
Yes, as long as there is a weaving job for you you’ll weave.
R- Yes, providing I like where I am. I mean 1 won't go, I won't stop anywhere I didn't like.
Yes. But I mean, as long as the situation stays how it is at Johnson’s ... That's interesting Mary because I think that it takes, I think that weavers are rather special people, and that's .. you know, in some ways that seems to bear it out. I can't ever, once having seen you work, I can't ... I know you could do other jobs but I can't visualise you doing anything but weave. I know Ernie Roberts thinks the same you know. He says that certain people are born weavers. Who were the other good weavers in the shed at Bancroft? Now then ...
R – Well, Dorothy Slater, she were a good weaver, Mary Widdup.
I saw Mary yesterday, she is up at Stew Mill.
R- At Stew Mill isn’t she?
Aye, she says “Good God Stanley, it's hard work shop is yon!” I don't think is enjoying it really up there. And Ivy was with her, is Ivy weaving up there?
R- I think so, I think they shut the shop down. [Ivy, wife of Bob Parkinson, they used to have a shop in their house at the end of Club Row but closed it.]
Aye, they've shut the shop down. Ivy was coming down the road with her. That's a bit of a change isn’t it, Ivy going back to weaving?
(800)
R - It will be yes. I think they are both up there. Oh we had come good times at Bancroft, a few good laughs and one thing and another you know?
Aye ... that's its aye.
R – Yes, Oh I enjoyed, I liked working up there they were good folks.
Aye, can you remember the time I took the roof off the ladies lavatory and you knew nothing about it?
R – No, I can’t remember that. No I didn't know, I didn’t know nothing about it no.
No that's it, aye.
R- See. It shows all the times that I used to go out!
That’s what I said at the time. I said it shows how many times Mary’s been out for a pee. She didn’t even know I'd taken the roof off the lavatory!
R - I didn't, no.
Eh! Anyway, thank you very much Mary..
R- You’re welcome..
SCG/26 January 2003
7,129 words.