THIS TAPE HAS BEEN RECORDED ON THE 1st OF AUGUST 1979 AT MARY WILKIN’S HOME, 10 MOORVIEW IN SALTERFORTH. THE INFORMANT IS MARY WILKIN, WEAVER AND THE INTERVIEWER IS STANLEY GRAHAM.
Right, this tape Is Mary Wilkin describing the pictures in the Bancroft Folio of herself weaving. And the first picture in the weaving section, number 1?
R - Aye, that’s one isn't?
Yes that's it. Now, we'll use these numbers at the top of the page, that's it. And, what are you doing there Mary?
R – I’m filling the shuttles, I’m pulling the, I don't know how to describe this, Pulling the spare weft off the pirn, off a pirn, before I put it on the shuttle itself, from the pirn you know, to the shuttle.
Yes that's it, aye. Rewound weft that been done on pirn winders and that's a thing about it isn’t it. It always finishes up wrapped round the bottom of the pirn.
R – No, well it shouldn't do if the machines are maintained properly, it shouldn’t do. 'Cause they should stop and cut and drop you see. Certain people, from Bancroft didn't know their job.
Oh is that, do you know…. [Frank Bleasdale was the winding master at Bancroft]
R – That’s it you see, and you see, when that pirn got full, it should cut off and cut the weft and drop. Well they didn’t. They were spinning round, do you see?
R - He could stop them if he wanted to, he could do.
That’s why they, that’s why it always finished up wound round the bottom of the pirn? They were all the same weren’t they?
R- Yes. It’s not like that at Johnson’s, still they aren't automatics at Johnson’s.
(50)
R- Who.
Pirns that we got from .. you know, like that condenser it was on green paper tubes, was that ... ?
R- No, that weren’t wrapped round the bottom.
That finished up at the top.
[To make sure this is clear, what Mary is talking about is a pirn with a metal bottom where the clip in the shuttle fits to retain it. A perfectly wound cop starts with a couple of turns round the base of the paper tube and then builds the package up slowly to the top where it should cut off. The cop will then release it’s weft from the top when it starts weaving. When the cop winding is completed the mechanism of the pirn winder returns the traveller which distributes the weft back to the cop base so as to be ready for the empty next tube. If the weft hasn’t been cut and the full pirn is still spinning this means that a layer of weft is wound over the top of the package down to the base and on to the metal bottom. This has to be pulled off by the weaver before the pirn is placed in the shuttle and threaded in order to allow it to weave. This wastes weft and time and is what Mary is alluding to]
R – No, that finished up at the top. See, it should do you see?
Aye ... Aye, that’s it, aye.
R - They weren't maintained properly.
Aye, and I always thought that that was a characteristic of that machine you know?
R - No no. It could have been stopped. He [Frank] could have stopped them if he’d wanted to. I thought that he couldn't be bothered. But they shouldn't run round, they should be cut clean.
Aye, because when you come to think. That wasted a lot of time and a lot of weft didn't it?
R - A lot of time, and a lot of weft, yes. And it were all weaver’s time. Because they got some sometime, they were really full round the bottom. And it’s surprising, you couldn’t always get at it you know.
Aye, that’s it. Now then, I noticed about you, well, in common with most of the weavers in the shed, how you hold your shuttle under your arm, is that how you were taught to do it or ... ?
R – No, not really. I mean you should be able to like pick your pirn up and put it on to your shuttle, find your end, shut your shuttle up and that should be the end of it. You see you had to hold your shuttle somewhere.
Aye, while you…
R - You hold it because you needed both hands to clean the bottom of the pirn off.
Aye, so if the pirn hadn't had that wound round the bottom, you wouldn't have had to shove the shuttle under your arm.
R- I wouldn’t be doing that, no. You'd have just picked it up, pulled your old un off, put your new un on and away.
R - Yes. You wouldn't have got that photo. No.
I wouldn’t have got that photo. Well, there you are, aye. We were talking the other week about weaving. Of course weaving is mainly shuttling isn’t it? And that's why most ... Now, there is something in here that I want to ask you about while I remember it .. It's something that, I never actually got a picture of you doing it, and it would have been very difficult to do anyway
(l00)
because you wouldn't have been able to see the thing, but many a time I noticed that, when you were putting the shuttle in, you used a little piece of spindle with a little wooden handle on didn't you, to push the shuttle in...
R - Either that or a pirn, yes.
Yes. Now why. Tell me just why you do that Mary.
R - Well, that little piece of spindle with the wooden handle on as what you've called them, we had those when we were down at Slater’s because they were automatic looms. Like your [shuttle] box was covered except for just a little, like a little slit where you could push your shuttle in. And you, well it saves your hands; if you are pushing your shuttles in with your fingers, your finger ends get sore. You get used to it in time like but ...
Aye, that’s it. Yes. So on automatics you would have had to have used that because you couldn’t get your fingers in, and that ...
R - Well you could, but it were difficult. You see, you get those for that reason, to push your shuttle up into your box.
That's right, aye, yes.
R- So we made do with pirns which they do down at Johnson’s, use a pirn down at Johnson’s. Mostly to save your fingers, because they get sore.
That's it, because I think you, there were perhaps one or two others in the shed used them but I never saw anybody using them except for you.
R - I used them, Dorothy [Slater] used them. It were only me and Dorothy used them and I didn’t always use one then.
No, that's it. I’ve noticed that sometimes you didn't. Your alley there is fairly clean because you used to sweep up how many times a day?
R - Twice a day, dinner time and night.
And when you finished.
R - When I finished at night, yes.
Yes. But of course not everybody did that.
R - Oh no, someone didn't bother sweeping up at all, perhaps once, twice a week. It helps, it helps yourself if your alley is clean, you are not falling over it all the time.
(150)
Aye, and another thing that people should notice when they’re looking at these pictures is the fact that, I’ve forgotten what Ernie called them but some weavers in the shed, they used to have a habit, I’ve seen it happening, I’ve seen a shuttle with a loose end hanging over that’s got caught up in one. of the gear wheels and it's quietly winding round the spindle.
R – Round, yes.
But I never noticed you having them.
R - Oh no, I pull them off.
Aye. Well, that's something that people should notice while doing these pictures. Now I'll just remind you, because I want this on tape. Anybody that's listened to Ernie Robert’s tapes will know about this; but Ernie, who was your tackler, described you as probably the best Lancashire Loom weaver he’d ever seen. So what we are looking at in these pictures is a very good weaver working. And there's a difference between a good weaver and a bad weaver, you know that and I know that, but it's as well if it’s down on the tape and then the people who are going to go through these pictures realise that they're looking at one of the best weavers we had. In fact, this is also on the tape, when you left Bancroft I maid “Well, it’s time all of us were thinking of leaving if weavers like Mary are going.” Anyway we’ll turn to picture number 2. Now then, once again you're drawing weft off. Now I’ll just explain to you, we'll go through this series of pictures, and it’s a series of pictures of you actually shuttling, you know, actually changing pirns and getting the loom going again. But you describe to me just exactly what you’re doing there.
R – Well, I’ve got me shuttle tucked up under me arm again. I’m doing basically what I was doing on the other picture only it's a more forward view. Pulling weft off, cleaning the bottom of the pirn.
Yes. Now these shuttles that are an the loom here are full. Why is that a full shuttle? That probably sounds a silly question Mary, but I want you to tell me why you've got a full shuttle on that ... what do you call that tray anyway?
(200)
R - Shuttle rest.
Shuttle rest. Now why is there a full shuttle in that shuttle rest there? You tell me.
R – Well, its common sense. You've two shuttles to a loom, you have one in your loom running so you have one filled ready for when your other one's empty. Your loom stops, you can take one straight out and the other one straight in without wasting much time.
That’s it.
R - And then you fill your .. like I'm doing on the picture, fill the other shuttle.
Have there been times at Bancroft when either you or other people have had to weave with one shuttle?
R – Yes, many a time. Aye. You take 'em to the tackler and he is busy doing something then you've got to weave with one shuttle till he fetches it back. Or in the case of Bancroft, you had to go and fetch your own.
Aye, that’s it. What went wrong with the shuttles mainly Mary?
R- Oh, pegs breaking. The pegs you put your shuttle, your pirn on breaking, they split, quite often split, or chipped, chipped wood coming out of them. Wooden pegs coming out and clips, what they call clips that hold your pirn in when you put your pirn on ... Oh I'm describing … You put your pirn on your shuttle peg with some clips at the bottom that hold your pirn in place so that when the loom's running your pirn isn’t slipping up and down, it stays put. They have to be replaced quite often, they wear, that's most of things you know.
I've seen Ernie altering the shape of shuttles when they've run for a bit, do they go out of shape as well? You know, I've seen him sanding, and…
(10 min)
R – Well, they get rough. You know, they get rough edges. It your shuttle's rubbing somewhere in your box, if the box in not just right and it catches your shuttle in a certain part they will rub, and it's up to the tackler then, either to make the box right so as it doesn't rub, and then at the same time smooth your shuttles out.
Yes. Now your tackler was the man, the tackler, the overlooker, is the man that you went to if you had anything wrong with your loom wasn’t he. But there were certain jobs that you did for yourself weren't there, on the loom, what were they Mary?
(250)
R- Oh you mean like putting leathers on?
Yes.
R - You used to put your own short leathers on, and picking bands ... what else were there up at Bancroft? That's all there were up at Bancroft. short leathers, picking bands. But down at Johnson’s you'd to put your own check strap on, which you didn't have to do at Bancroft. Tacklers put those on. Butt most of, things like .. short leathers and picking bands.
Aye. That’s it. When you say check straps, that isn't the long one that runs…
R – That’s the long one that runs right across the front of the shed, yes.
The long leather, aye. And did you have to put those on as well?
R - At Johnson's. Yes
Aye.
R - But you shouldn't have to really.
Right, we’ll go on to .. wait a minute, picture number 3. Oh now, on picture number 3, on the floor by your right foot…
R - Yes ...
What's that Mary?
R- That’s an empty tin I used to throw my empty bobbins in. I used to take one bobbin off and chuck it in, and got another one out. And then ...
Yes. When you've got, when you’ve filled that tin with empty bobbins, what did you do with it, did somebody come for it or ..
R - No such luck! You had to go and take away yourself. Oh no, I’m telling fibs, sometimes Frank’d come round for them.
Aye. If you were short of pirns.
R - Yes, we had to be short of pirns. But more often than not you'd take them back yourself. I used to take them back in at first thing in the morning. Like I were telling you last week, I used to come to work soon and get meself straightened out and that were one of the jobs I did, take the empty bobbins back.
Yes. Now, you wouldn't be walking about a lot there. How many of those tins did you have about in your alley? I see there's two there, isn't there. There is one at either side there.
R - Well there'd be, there'd be one for each … how many would I have? Two, four, six I think.
Aye, one for each pair of looms and then an extra one for the end. Yes.
R - Two pairs of looms yes and a single one at th’end yes.
What's this on your left hand side, that shuttle tray there, what's that white thing that's laying on ...
R- That looks like sandpaper.
Aye. What would you use that for, Mary?
R- Rubbing your shuttles. You know, if you got, if the shuttle's got a bit rough.
Yes, so you'd do a bit on your shuttle as well. Have you ever put fur in your own shuttle?
(300)
R - 1 have, yes. Yes it's easy enough to do.
Yes, I have a picture of Mary Cawdray doing it.
R- I never did it up at Bancroft though, I don't know, I stuck a bit down odd times. You know, when it comes loose. Yes, odd times.
Yes, if it was lifting. Aye.
R - It looks like I've got a warp out on that loom.
Ah, makes you may that?
R- Well, there’s no cloth over the bearers.
That's it, aye,
R - There is rollers there waiting to be taken out.
Yea. What did you call this front?
R - That was the breast beam, breast beam, yes.
Breast beam, that's it. Aye.
R - I don't know [the names of] half the things meself to tell you the truth ... I think it's the breast beam.
No it's right, I just want to know what you do know, it doesn't matter. I mean you know more than I do about weaving. Anyway, picture number 3. Now we are one stage further on, aren't we and .. What are you doing there? We are one stage further on in the process.
R- One stage on. I've caught the pirn on the shuttle peg, I’m finding the end. Yes, I'm finding the end, the loose end.
And not even looking at it?
R - No I'm not even looking at it. I must be watching somebody else, there must be something interesting happening there. And then I would close the shuttle down and thread it.
Yes that's it. Well now, on picture number 4 you have .. you see you were moving that quickly you see, you shut that, you've shut that shuttle up and your hand’s a moving that quick you’ve lost me completely, it's a blur is that shuttle.
R – Yes, well as you could see it's a follow on from number 3, I've closed my shuttle up ...
Yes and see, your hand's just flying out. Well it locks as if you are going to put it on that tray just behind you aren't you?
R- Yes, that’ll, that's where it will be going, yes.
Yes. On your right hand-side. Anyway, number 5.
R- Yes, I still have …
Yes. You’ve still got hold of it but, ah, you were drawing a bit of thread out through the eye on the other one weren't you? And now are you wrapping it round there?
R- Yes that looks like what I’m doing. It looks like I'm wrapping round me shuttle yes, and then as you move to number six I'm putting it down.
Yes. Number six you are putting it down. And that’s actually, that’s one pirn changed ... Now, how many times would you do that in a day Mary?
R - Oh heck, hard to say ... hundreds I would imagine. Because I mean, you get all these thick wefters, they don't last above two minutes. Like condensers, eights weft you'd be for ever at it.
{We keep coming across counts of weft like ‘eights’. The count of the weft is the number of hanks of weft to the pound. A hank {or in old terminology, a ‘lea’} is 840 yards. So the lower the number, the thicker the weft. Eights was heavy weft. In 1851, Gilbert J French, the Secretary of the Bolton Commissioners Committee was presented with samples of yarn spun in Bolton Parish to a count of 700 hanks to the pound. This was incredibly fine weft. At Bancroft we used 44s regularly and sometimes 60s but not very often. Obviously, the finer the yarn, the finer the cloth.]
(350)
Yes. So I mean you've got eight looms, so if you ….
R – Ten. Ten.
Ten looms rather, so if you reckon average of say six minutes, because that is what it’d be about wouldn't it, taking the rough with the smooth would it?
R – That’d be with the thick and fine wefters, yes.
Yes. So if you weren't doing so badly, if you had a few condensers in, put a few 44's and all ... say every six minutes, that's ten looms, that's .. that's a hundred in an hour, that’s eight hundred a day isn’t it.
R- It's a lot yes.
So you're doing that on an average eight hundred times a day, sometimes
a bit less but very often more.
R - A bit more. On an average, I had ten looms, I had eight thick wefters in more often than not. I had more ...
Eight thick wefters in, aye.
R - Seven or eight, yes. Because I used to prefer them and Jim used to let me have ‘em.
Ah well, he knew you could roll it off, didn't he? So you'd be, if you had eight thick wefters in, that's eight loom, you had to take in thirty shuttles an hour, that's two hundred and forty an hour. And say the other two, that's three hundred an hour that's …
R – You make it sound like hard work.
Aye, three hundred an hour times eight, that's, Good God, that's two thousand four hundred a day.
R- I don’t believe it. It's a lot I know, it must be.
Aye, but if you had eight thick wefters in, that's what you were doing.
R - But all you have to do really is count all your pirns up.
Aye, two thousand changes a day. Tha must be, tha must be going some Mary.
R- Must be.
Yes. Bancroft shed, nicely whitewashed in your corner.
R - Oh yes, you couldn’t see the green mould coming through the wall.
Yes. Now go on, tell me, what makes you may that?
R – Well, it used to be green didn't it? The damp coming off, through the field outside.
Yea. That wall, in fact…
Well, you could see it there, you can see it on picture number 6 in one corner there.
Yes, you can see a patch on the wall, can't you. There was mould coming through that wall because it was, because it was damp outside. And also your side of the shed was the coldest side wasn't it.
R- Oh it were, about ten degree below everybody else in Winter.
Aye, it was, you're quite right.
R - And Dorothy and me were the only ones that never complained really. We used to get, we used to get woollies on, and do some soup and carry on working. That's all you could do, you had to work to keep warm.
Yes aye. Yes but that's a different attitude Mary than a lot of people would have nowadays about…
(400)
R- Oh true, they wouldn't do it these days.
Conditions like that. Because I mean, I've seen you weaving there when the temperature's been below fifty and forty-five .. you know between forty-five and fifty.
R- Oh at Bancroft if your temperature were in the sixties you were warm. You were warm you know?
Yes. And yet the regulations said it had to be sixty, aye.
R- Sixty, yes.
Would you say, really, that old fashioned type Lancashire weaving like you were doing there, like with thick wefters and you were moving about all the time, would you say that sixty degree was too warm for comfort?
R - Oh no. No. It's all right. It were all right for me, it didn't bother me, but some people, it's a bit cold for ‘em. For a lot of people it were too cold.
Oh yes. Well, as you well know, I did have my little troubles about that, with some people being warm and some people being cold. Aye. When you swept your waste up in the bottom, because obviously, from the look of the floor this must be getting on towards dinner time and it's not…
(20 min)
I must have taken that other picture of you fairly early in the morning or just after dinner. When you swept your waste up, what did you do with it Mary?
R- You just sweep it out in the alley and up the side of a pole [a pillar] you know. Then the sweeper'd come round and pick it up at night. You sweep it to one side like.
Yes. That went for waste. Now what about .. that went out not as cotton waste, that just went out as rubbish didn't it, sweepings.
R – Yes, rubbish yes. [‘Sweeps’ as this rubbish was called was actually quite dangerous. Because it was dirty and damp ands contaminated by oil it was prone to spontaneous combustion. As it heated in the normal way, it became quite offensive. At Bancroft it was stored in the old air-raid shelter on the side of the dam as this was a brick and concrete structure separate from the mill and was therefore safe. When a wagon load had accumulated a contractor came in and removed it as rubbish.]
Now how about waste that you used to take in the warehouse and put in the bag in the warehouse? Where did that come from?
R- Well, it’d be what you pulled off. You put some in, they’d have like tins on't floor. You put your weft in there. I didn’t do a right lot. I didn't do a right lot of that be the looks of it at Bancroft, most of it’s on the floor. But sometimes like you get a weft, a pirn that was soft, and all the lot would fly off then. Obviously you wouldn't put that on the floor, things like that you'd take back [as waste for recycling]
Now then, tell me more about that. You say a pirn that's soft, what do you mean by that.
R - Well, it’s been wound soft, and if it's too soft, you can feel they're soft.
Yes, in other words its not being wound tightly enough.
(450)
R- Tight enough, no. And sometimes they weave off all right but more often than not your whole cop would fly off. Sometimes you get away with it, your loom 'd just stop, and sometimes you could make a right mess, make a right mess.
Yes now when you say the whole cop flies off, what’d happen, the yarn package itself would slide off the pirn, jam up in the shuttle, and your weft’d break. How could that make a right mess Mary?
R – Well, sometimes they fly off, they could fly off over the top of your shuttle and get fast in the shed. And then it’d drag. You see, your shuttle’s going, it’d drag and get fast as your looms coming over and it could fetch ...
Ah, I see, your shuttle’d never pick properly with the, with the drag it wouldn't pick.
R- No. It wouldn't pick properly you see and as your loom's coming over, if they're getting fast, it’ll get fast and drag more, therefore you have to have a mess. You could have half a warp out if you are unlucky enough. [Half the ends in the warp broken. This is a smash, not a trap.]
How many times did that happen Mary? You know, how common was it for you to have a, you know, like a bad smash?
R- Oh, it depends on your loom and it depends on the weaver I suppose. A lot of weavers had smashes because they just set the loom on, they didn't bother to make sure the shuttle were in the box right. If your shuttle is not in the box right you can have a mess there. And as I was saying last week, you can have things go wrong with your loom, things like that you know. I didn’t have all that many I don't think really. But, if you, generally if you try and keep on top of things like your pickers and your short leathers and picking bands, them type of things that can cause smashes, you can usually, you know, you keep yourself pretty straight.
How important is oiling, you know, in things like that?
R - Oh it is important to have your looms oiled, that’s why your loom should be swept every week and oiled every week. I were lucky that Bancroft had a good sweeper.
Who swept for you?
R – Leslie, what were his last name? [Lambert]
Yes, little Leslie, aye.
R - Yes, can't think of his last name, Anyway like I say I were lucky I had a good sweeper and they were swept and oiled regular. Because if they don't get swept and oiled regular they can seize up, and you can also have a fire, because of all the dawn that collects, especially on some sorts, which are muckier than others [sorts of cloth]
Yes. Did you ever see a fire at Bancroft?
(500)
R - Oh well, yes. When Fred Roberts had one. That's .. oh, funny were that.
Tell me about it.
R- It were just after dinner, I wonder how I remember it. We just set on after dinner, and we were working and all of a sudden the fire alarm went. Nearly made us jump out of us, jump out of me skin. We looked round and there was Fred Roberts running up and down like somebody demented, there were a lot of smoke coming off one loom and everybody else running about. But funny part were none of the weavers moved, they all carried on working, the mill could have been on fire but nobody moved. And there was, and Ernie, not Ernie Roberts, Ernie Whitaker walking about with his teapot full of water to put the fire out .. oh that were right funny.
Oh yes I remember that bit.
R - There were no fire extinguishers you know, in t’shed.
There were two.
R- Oh well there were none near me.
There were two powder extinguishers, aye that's it, there were only two, you are right.
R - Yes. There were none round there.
It was something which I got on to them about. I got on Jim time and time again because those two that were in the middle of the shed, actually, were for electrical fires. They weren't water extinguishers, which they should have been, no.
R - They weren't water, no.
(25 min)
And the funniest thing about that day, I’m glad you brought that up because I don't know whether I have this on tape or not. Was the fact that, you know, I was running the engine, and the fire alarm went off and when the fire alarm goes off it rings a bell in the engine house you see. And .. I mean, what I should have done immediately was stop the engine and go and see what was wrong. But what I did, I thought to meself “Hello, some silly bugger's put a beam pike through t'fire alarm.” And I walk quietly up the side of the engine and got a spare glass and screw driver and key for
the fire alarm, you know. And I walked quietly up into the shed and when I got
into the shed first thing I saw was Billy, Billy Two Rivers ..
R- Billy Lambert.
Billy Lambert stood with the hammer next to the stop button for the engine. As I walked through the door he says “Have I to break it?” I said “You’d better not, I haven't got any spare glasses for that! What's up?” He says “Mill’s on fire!” I says Nay, bloody hell! But by the time I got there, Ernie with his teapot had put it out. But I thought afterwards. How silly!
R- It were silly.
I was as bad as anybody else, I heard the fire alarm go off, and you know, it meant there was a fire. but I thought straight away, I thought some tackler would be walking round with a roller over his shoulder you know, sommat and bang through the fire alarm because it's happened before.
R- You see, up at Bancroft they never had fire drill.
No. Do they have fire drill at Johnson’s?
R – Yes, they have fire drill and not that long since down at Johnson’s.
Do you know how often it’s going to happen?
R- No, no but they let us know when it happens. Like they told us what was going to happen and what we had to do you know? But like up at Bancroft they were, we just kept on working.
(550)
Aye ... No, I’m glad you brought that up Mary.
R- It were funny were that.
Yes, aye, Yes. Right, we’ll go on to number…
R- Ernest and his teapot.
Aye, Ernie Whitaker and the teapot. I can remember that, aye. And he put the fire out.
R - Oh he did, mind there weren't much to put out like but ...
And nobody ever knew how it started.
R - Looms that hadn't been oiled, that's what it were.
Aye well, here you are.
R- Picture number 7.
R - Picture 7, yes. Yes, I'm putting a shuttle in, pushing it up, right up into the box, make sure your shuttle’s in, right in the box else as I’m saying you can have a mess.
Yes, Now, one thing about that .. your right hand, what are you doing with your right hand there Mary, you've got it behind the box haven't you?
R – Yes. Well that loom is a bang up, it’s what they call a bang up loom. Now every box has a swell on the back of the box, what they call a swell. Now on these bang up looms it helps you to get your shuttle in, it gets easier for you if you can open your swell, which you can do on these bang up looms, which you’ve no need to do on ordinary looms that are loose reed looms. See, a bang up isn't a loose reed, and like I say it helps you to get your shuttle in. Probably you can do it on your others if you want like but I only did it on bang ups. Made it easier to get your shuttle in. But there, I'm not using a pirn there you see, I'm just using me fingers.
No, you're using your finger aye. Yes I noticed that. And .. yes, and there is your empty shuttle.
R- Yes …out.
Now, there's a thing ...
R- What?
Oh, of course, you can’t see the cloth, it looked as if that sand roller was empty, but it can't be, it's just the end of it.
R – No. Just the end of it yes.
Yes. When you were leaning up against that, because that sand roller’s covered with spiky metal isn’t it. Metal that's made like a nutmeg grater. It's punched from the back and it’s spiky, did it use to wear your clothes out, leaning on the loom, up against them.
R- Yes, I used to tear my overalls yes, wear me pocket's out, yea.
Yes aye. And so there, that loom's stopped. Now, when a loom stops does it always stop in the position that's right to put the shuttle in?
R- No, you have, very often not and you have to move it. Sometimes it’ll, sometimes it'll stop with it back at the right end and sometimes it'll come over. Sometimes it stops at the wrong side. It's called, it stops at the wrong side. If your shuttle stops at the opposite side to what it should, it should be at the starting side.
(600)
Yes. Now it should stop on the same side as your setting on lever shouldn’t it?
R- Yes, yes. Same side as your starting handle, yes. Which is that thing.
Yes, that’s it, yes. And .. something I've noticed .. tell me why when you were putting a shuttle in, you didn't just put that shuttle in at one end and let it start, you used to many a time slip it in the middle of a warp, now why was that Mary?
R - That were called ‘finding your pick’. Now up at Bancroft there were pickfinders and non pickfinders. With a pick-finder you had to find your pick. Which if your shuttle is going backward and forward it is putting a pick in every time your shuttle goes across it is putting a pick in. Sometimes your pick were loose when you change your shuttle which in that case you just put your shuttle in where your pick, where your weft finished. Whereas if your loom, if the pick was fast you’d have to turn your loom over to find the pick.
Yes. Let me just see if I've get that right, then other people will get it right when they’re listening to you. No, you described it very well but the thing is when you say the pick was loose, that's if the shed hasn't altered after the shuttle's gone through isn't it, and trapped the pick that's just gone through.
R - Yes your shuttle, if it's .. your shuttle, your loom stopped when your shuttle’s empty. As it's .. I don't know how to describe it really.
No, you are doing all right. If your loom's carried on, if your loom hasn't stopped straight away, say if the brake wasn't very good and it hasn't stopped straight away it's possible for the shed to alter and the last, because the last piece of weft that was coming off the shuttle can be trapped in the shed can't it?
R - A lot depends on where your weft is when it runs out, when your shuttle runs out. If it runs off when your shuttle's going to your off side away from your starting side .. then when your shuttle comes back, your shuttle will automatically come back till the loom turns over and come back. Now that pick will be fast.
Yes, that's it.
R- Now then, I would have to find that pick, that would mean turning me loom over and finding that pick and then putting the shuttle in.
Yes. So you turn it over until the shed was open again on that pick.
R – Yes..
So if it's a pick-finder you've always got to start .. so that in effect, if you were to tie them two pieces together in a knot, it'd just be the same as if it’d gone straight through. But if it wasn't a pick-finder it wouldn’t matter whether your pick was fast or loose.
(650)
R - It didn't matter, no, you could just throw your shuttle in and ...
Yes. What were them, things like gauzes and cheaper clothe and what not?
R - Yes. Like down at Johnson’s, there's no pick-finders down there. I suppose a lot depended on what it were used for, what .. like you say, cheaper end I suppose. Things like one reds and them, they weren't pick-finders. A lot of condensers were pickfinders. So you throw your, throw your shuttle in then and you'd let your loom back, let your wheels back.
Yea. Now why do you let your wheels back?
R- You'd to let your wheels back or else you'd have a thin place. They’re like, they're like a gap, so to say between your shuttle emptying and setting your loom on again.
Yes. In other words the cloth roller has wound on a little bit and pulled a bit of cloth through when it had not been really weaving. So you just reached to the side where the gears are and lift a pawl and let it off.
R - Perhaps let two or three you know?
Yes. Now, did you always let it off the same for every cloth or …
R - No, no. Like some of them you didn't need to, the strong ones, the very strong ones you didn't need to let back. Some you let more than others, some you let back a lot like condensers.
And how did you know how much to let it back Mary?
R – Well, it's what every weaver gets to know with her own looms. She gets to know just how many teeth to let back on each loom for each sort. I mean, I could, let's say let two back on one of mine for one particular sort and go to somebody else’s alley for the same sort and they might not want any letting back or a lot it just depends on how it's, how it is you see?
So it was important really that you were an the same set of looms all the time. It was easier for you it you were on the same set of looms.
R - Oh it's definitely easier if you've got your own looms yes. I mean you get to know how them looms are and what's what with them so to speak.
That's it yes. Now then, picture number 8, what are you doing there?
(35 min)
R - Picture number 8. I’ve put my shuttle in, and I’m about to set me loom on. I've got my right hand on the starting handle and the left hand on the hand rail so that when I set me loom on, I set me loom on and pull me loom over. Which .. It shouldn’t, you've no need to do really, it's just habit is that. I had to do it on quite a few looms at Bancroft, the heavy ones you know, like bang ups, for if you didn’t help a bang up over sometimes it would, it just wouldn’t run. But .. like I say a lot of it is just habit, setting your loom on and pushing your hand on the hand rail.
Aye, that's why the hand shelf always got polished didn't it.
R – Yes, well worn.
Well worn, that’s it, aye. Just underneath your hand where it’s an the hand rail there, hand shelf, slay cap, whatever you want to call it, there's a metal bar running across the top of the warp. What's that Mary?
R- That's your shuttle guard.
(700)
That’s supposed to stop your shuttle from flying out. That's what it’s for. It didn't have much effect.
New then, you say it's supposed to and it didn't have much effect. Did you ever have a shuttle fly out?
R - Oh yes. They flew out. They're dangerous.
Well they are, I think somebody got hit in the eye while I was there, with a shuttle.
R - Yes. Because they are fairly moving when they come out. You can't see ‘em coming out, they've gone a long way before you know where they are, and they go for yards you know, you'd be looking for them in your alley and they can be away, way away, over in somebody else's alley.
Aye, when you come to think it’s…
R - It can be dangerous, it is.
Aye. And have you ever seen a shuttle guard that worked.
R - Well, I suppose they do work most of the time. It's just .. when your loom goes wrong, if it’s not picking right I suppose it just, it just flies out and that's it you know? They aren't really much. I don’t know if they really are much of a guard really. I suppose they must serve a purpose. Well, that's what it is. It is a shuttle guard.
Now, what was I going to say? No, you've answered me question there Mary. You are doing very well actually. Now, this loom that you are on with there, it's got .. in front of your head there, this arrangement of pulleys and leather straps and what not. Now tell me what that is.
R - That's what they call a spring top.
And what’s that for Mary?
R - They use them for twills, we used to have twills in.
Now, this that you've got in there is a two stave isn't it from the look of it.
R – Yes a two shaft, yes.
How many shafts would twills have?
R - Four. Well, them what they had up at Bancroft they're four shafts. Yes. They'd be me reds. A two shaft had four healds ...I can’t see, no, that's only a two.
That’s only got two, yes.
R - That's a two, yes. That's only a two shaft.
Yes but, Ernie went into that .. using four shafts as two shafts, you know. I mean two healds running together and having them slated, he went into that fairly well. Why do they slate them, why do they do it that way?
R- I don't know, it depends, I don't know really See, a lot, the majority is what you call, it's two in a reed, two ends in one dent in your reed. Now there’ll be four shafts, slated as you call them. They’ll be plain but they'll be four shafts. So that'll be, like one*
one end through, one dent'll have two ends off a front heald and a back heald.
They're either ones or threes, or twos and fours on a plain one. You'll have
(750)
a one and a three off your healds, in one dent, and a two and a four shaft in your dent. That’s plain cloth; whereas this is just, on this picture number 8, is just a single shaft. Now, they'll only have one end in one dent, one end in a dent.
Yes, that’s it. That won’t be a very heavy cloth, will it that you are weaving there?
R - That's .. No, it'll be condenser cloth be the looks of it I think. I think that's what it is. Majority of condensers were one shaft. Yes, one in a dent.
What's that hung on the wall, just over your head.
R - There? That's a mirror.
Aye. What do you have a mirror for?
R - Don*t know, comb me hair.
I thought that might throw you Mary! Yes, I think we've done very well with that. Yes well on that, with that only being two staves. You are not using the spring top are you? You are using that, what do they call that across the front?
R - I haven't the foggiest idea what they call that.
Good lass, don't be frightened to say it if you don't know.
R - No I don’t. Those are dolly leathers that your healds are fastened on to, your heald bands are fastened.
Dolly leathers?
R - Those what your heald bands are fastened on to. But for that thing itself I have no idea what it’s called.
Good lass. And the heating system over your head. The Bancroft heating system specially designed for warming sparrows.
R - Oh yes. What am I doing here?
Now then, 9.
R - Oh, I've got me loom running. I'm breaking me tails off, which they're bits of end bits of weft, tail ends of weft. Which is your pick, presumably it's a pick-finder. I've pulled me pick out and thrown me shuttle in. I'm keeping hold of the end of the weft and it looks like I’m breaking them off. Yes, that's what I'm doing now.
Yes. There'll be two, there'll be the end of the old one and the tail of the new one that you’ve just put in. Now then, picture number 10 is, obviously it's a different loom, we are facing the other way. We’re facing up the shed now but this is another loom and you're just, now you tell me what you're doing on there, you're just putting the shuttle in.
R - Putting me shuttle in yes.
And this is another shuttle change, but this one's in because something happened here. Now, before you go to number 11. Now what are you doing on number 11? You put your shuttle in and…
R - I'm putting the shuttle in, letting me wheel back ready for setting off.
Yes, now, on 11 there you'll get hold of that top wheel won't you.
R – No, this one, the bottom one yes.
The, the bottom wheel , and with your other band you'll lean over and lift…
R - Lift the two levers, that lever whatever they call 'em there.
Yes, the pawl, that's it, aye.
R- Pawl, yes. I lift them back, let back a couple of cogs.
Yes. And then set your loom on. Yes, now in 12 you've evidently set your loom on, your loom's running, and ...
R - Yes. Pulling me tails off.
(800)
Yes you're pulling your tails off again.
R - Thirteen ...
On 13 you're changing your pirn aren't you?
R – Yes, filling me shuttle up.
Filling your shuttle up. Now then, while you were doing that, that loom stopped by itself. And now we’ll go on to 14. Now you can see that you've filled your shuttle and put your shuttle down on the shuttle tray, the full one, but you’ve got the other shuttle in your hand now. Now you go on and tell me what you were doing there Mary.
R- Me weft’d broken, weft had broken, which the loom would stop. I’ve taken the pirn, the shuttle out, and it looks like I've found the fault. Yes, I’ve found, I'm threading me shuttle again ready for going back in. It might been just cut you know, sometimes in the winding room, happen a lump of dawn, something fast.
Yes, now on 15 you're pulling some more weft off, and your hands are moving that fast again.
R – Fast..
You're pulling some thread off. Once you've threaded it, would you pull some through the eye to make sure it was running properly?
R - Yes I would, make sure it weren't trying, you know make sure it weren't broken again. Yes.
And then on 16, what ...
R - I'm putting me shuttle in on the off side. The weft must have broken on the off side so I'm putting me shuttle in at that side and then I would knock, send the shuttle back across to the starting side, and then let the wheels back again.
You’d have to let them back again aye, yes.
R – Yes, I let them back again. And then on picture 17 I’m just setting the loom on again.
(45 min)
Yes. Now there is something about that picture number 18 which is this. It's the reason really why this in. A lot of weavers wouldn’t have bothered. If you look at that shuttle that you were putting back in there in like less than half a pirn there isn't there or less than that. A lot of weavers wouldn’t have bothered would they? They'd have whipped that out and put…
R - Put a full one on. Yes, no they wouldn't have bothered, they would have thrown it and sent it back as waste which in just wasteful really.
Yes, they wouldn't have bothered. Yes. Well that, you see, that's the reason why that's in, because to me that says a lot about the sort of weaver that you are, it's the difference between a good weaver and a bad weaver. I mean, those pirns, they add up in a day don't they.
R- Oh yes.
And that's the reason in the old days, why they used to have to go and take the waste into the warehouse didn't they?
R- In the warehouse. Yes.
Have you ever had to take your waste in like that? You know, they used to, used to have to take it to somebody [to be inspected]didn’t they.
R - Yes. I used to take it, at Slaters I used to take it and put it in a box. I never had to take it to anybody, I used to go and shove it in a box that’s all.
Have you ever heard of anybody being pulled up for making too much waste?
R- No, I don’t think so. Because it all goes in one box you see, unless they see you throwing it in they don't know who’s it is.
Yes. That's it. Because in the old days it used to be a big thing didn't it, I don't know whether you've heard old weavers talking about it, it used to b a big thing, they used to say there were more lavatories got bunged up in the mill with waste being put down them…
R - Waste being put down it. A lot used to take the waste home and put it on the fire.
(850)
Do you know what Ernie Roberts said? He said that when he started weaving he used to go in thin and come out fat at night.
R- Fat at night. Yes, broken pirns and one thing and another.
Stabbed cops. Aye, Ernie in his weaving days. He is weaving again isn’t he?
R - He is.
He is weaving at Bendem, can't keep away from it. Gives a good idea that picture, well both 16 and 17, of, you can see all the shafting in the roof and a forest of belts and the lights are on and all! I must have been treating you well that day.
R - Must have been. It didn't make any difference.
Aye, why do you say that?
R- That it didn't make any difference, not much.
What makes you say that? Now tell me about the lighting.
R- Well, they weren't right good lights were they? I mean, be honest.
Oh they weren’t, I agree with you but I want you to tell me.
R - Some days they were lovely and bright and others you could, sometimes you could see them going dimmer and dimmer, and you can get closer and closer to the cloth. You weren’t so bad but when George were there, it were murder sometimes, he wouldn't turn them up.
Ah well, the reason for that, there again I think it's on the tapes somewhere, in that when I went there the alternator was wrong and actually where they should have had 440 Volts they only had 330.
R - Oh, no wonder it were dark half the time.
And that's why, .. well you'll laugh, do you know what used to be .. well, the thing that put me on to it in the end, that there was something wrong, was the fact that the adding machine in the office for the wages would only work if it was on the mains it wouldn't work…
R- It wouldn't work on ..
It wouldn't work on ours. So I thought “We'd better move into the twentieth century and get the voltage checked.” and I found out we were running 110 Volt down.
R- I don’t know .. typical.
It’s a wonder they worked at all actually.
R- Typical Bancroft.
Yes, well, before we just go on to that, we’re just getting to the end of this tape so I'll change the tape over and we'll go on to the other pictures, you know, on a new tape. But ... Yes ... Tell me about being on stone floors all day, walking about on stone floors Mary. I mean, was that any hardship?
R- It were hard work, really. I never noticed it before but it were very, it weren’t so bad in winter but it were very uncomfortable in summer. Your feet used to hurt, it used to get hot. They don't seem to do the same down at Johnson’s, must be a better floor.
That's composition isn’t it, that floor?
R - Yes. Very uneven, you go flying it you aren't careful.
Aye that's so isn't it. Well, another thing, were all your looms fastened down properly?
R- Were they heck! No they weren’t, I don't think so. They'd go for a walk, one or two go for a walk.
What do you mean go for a walk? Tell me.
R - Well, they'd move as if they were running away, they'd move. I had one or two did that at odd times, they weren't fastened down right.
I don't think there was a loom in that shed fastened down properly, they'd shifted them about that many times, ... I think, we should we should have had them on a draught board I think. Anyway, we’ll finish this tape here Mary and go on to a fresh tape.
(900)
SCG/29 January 2003
9,319 words