THIS TAPE HAS BEEN RECORDED ON THE 11th of MAY 1979 AT NUMBER 9 SACKVILLE STREET, BARNOLDSWICK. THE INFORMANT IS JACK PLATT AND THE INTERVIEWER IS STANLEY GRAHAM.
[Mrs Mona Platt was present and helped Jack out here and there. Her contributions are clearly marked.]
So your mother, your mother and Annie left Coates and went down to Calf Hall and you went with 'em.
R- I went with ‘em yes.
And who were you working for at Calf Hall?
R- Bird's.
Bird's.
R- Bird's aye.
Aye.
R- It were top place, they called it Bird's at Calf Hall. B I R D S. Birds.
That’d be the new shed at the back, up to the dam like.
R- Well it were at top.
Aye, yes.
R- Top place.
Aye. And let's see what year would that be, were ... no that were afore Ernie Roberts were working there.
R- Before I left Calf Hall I got put on four looms when I bethink me self. That's why I went on four here. [Bancroft]
Aye.
R- You know, at finishing up. I’d just got another four loom.
Aye.
R - They'd like twelve, and they, you know I were like shoved on two and me mother helped me out wi’ mine, you know.
Yes. So you'd like twelve looms between you.
R- Twelve loom for three of us, yes that were it.
You wouldn't be doing so badly then, three of you then.
R- Oh no, no. That's when we started feeling us selves like.
Aye. Things’d be looking up at home a bit.
R- Yes, oh aye, a lot.
Aye.
R - Yes. There were only Walter then that weren’t working. you know.
And so now you heard that Bancroft were starting. Now you've already told me that you managed to sneak yourself into the engine house. Now tell me about that.
R- What do you mean, when they were christening the engine.
When they were christening the engine, aye.
R- Oh yes. Well you know, we came down, we knew there were sommat going on, ‘cause sometimes we went that way to Barlick. Sometimes we come this way and we came down here, I think it’d be at Saturday. [Saturday March 13th.] I think it would be anyway, so what day it were, we were coming past and we saw these here. So you know what you are when your young, you like to have a look round don't you. So we went in and up steps. There were all these folk in and in the engine house they were reading the, you know, christening the engine and that's when I got me photo took. I can see it as plain as I saw it then, Mary Jane. I think Mary Jane's at left side and James is at right. I think so. Is it?
Aye.
R – That’s reight Mary Jane, James. Aye I've allus remembered that. What happened after, we happen get thrown out, we’d happen get put out. I don't know but I know we landed outside after you know.
(50)
Aye. I've a picture of that about and there is some young lads on that photo.
C - Yes well we're among them.
I’ll show it you.
R - Because we were the only ones that were in, a few of us.
Aye, I’ll show it you.
R - Yes, aye you do.
I’ll find that picture and show it you.
R- I hope you do, I bet I'm one on 'em.
Aye.
R - And George Horrocks is another.
Aye.
R - There were a few of us, we all, we all managed to sneak in, and I think we got put out after, but they'd christened, you know they were christening the engine.
Aye. And there were Aunty Liza there wi’ her big hat, and there were no insulation on engine, there were no covers on, it weren’t finished weren’t the engine.
R- No I can’t tell you that part, you know.
Aye it weren’t finished because you could see, it were a bit of a rum job like because there were part of the insulation that weren’t on and there were still big stickers on you know… Paper stickers.
R- Were there?
Aye. Roberts, William Roberts & Son, Phoenix Foundry.
R- Aye, I never noticed that but I know..
Well you can see it on the photograph of course.
R- Aye.
That's how I know, but anyway. So you were weaving there at Bancroft and you were on four loom there, so you’d have twelve loom between you. You and your mother..
R- Me, me mother and Annie, yes.
Yes.
R- Yes, we had, we went on twelve loom, yes.
And what were it like when they were first starting? I know they’d told you about engine.
R- Well, it were rough. You see there were only what you call one box of weft in the warehouse.
One?
R- There weren’t like all these rows of boxes of weft like there is in mills. There were just one, you all went out and got it out of this one box, you know..
(5 min)
They, they kept opening others but, I mean they kept opening another after that because it were soon done were one when there were, there’d be about half a dozen of us I should think. And I know that's the first thing we got told, if th’engine started running fast, if your looms started running too fast, very fast, don't bother whatever, don't bother with nothing, just get yourselves out into the warehouse. Run out of the mill you know, run out of the shed. So we did do. It happened once or twice, but it happened once and I went back and one of my, one of my looms is like, well it were nearly on top of another loom, you know, it had bounced.
Aye.
R- Happen straps had pulled 'em up?
Yes aye. Can you remember t’names of any of the tacklers that were there then?
R- Well yes, I can remember a few names of old tacklers. There were Fred Bracewell, he were one of the reight old ‘uns. I bet Fred were one of first to start. Albert Monks, Fred Bracewell, Albert Monks. Them's two names what sticks in me mind because I used to get on well wi’ them two because we worked again [next to]Albert Monk’s wife and in fact she were next to me and they used to look after me an all. I used to like Mrs. Monks, she were a grand woman, that were old Monk's wife. Aye I should think they'd be two of the first tacklers that worked there, I should think so. I can’t remember anybody else before 'em but I can remember Fred, old Fred Bracewell and Albert Monks.
[Months after I transcribed this I learned from Sheila Wilkinson at Sough that Jack’s memory had played him false. It wasn’t Albert Monks, it was George Monks who was the tackler, he was born 1898 and so was 22 at the time. His wife was Vida, nee Collins and they were married on 1st of April 1920. The Jim Monks who was cleaning the looms was no relation. Albert had four brothers, Edward, Lapage (killed in WW1, Albert (who was never a mill worker) and Wilfred. George lived at 25 Ivy Terrace and it was his father, George Monks that was gardener for Wilfred Nutter and got £50 compensation from the bus company after he was knocked down after getting off outside the Knoll in 1929. {CH 19/07/1929} Sheila was one of George’s two daughters, her sister was called Doreen.]
Can you remember any of the other people that were working there then?
R- Apart from ours, apart from us.
Yes.
R- No.
No.
R- I've tried, I've tried to do many a time but you know they go out of your mind don't they.
That's it aye.
R- But there’d happen be about two or three, no more. And then old, can you remember old Jim Monks wi’t crutch. Jim Monks, he lives up Tubber Hill he’d a crutch.
Yes.
R- Well he used to be sweeping looms as they came in. Old Jim, you know. There were one or two men, and looms, as they brought looms in and fixed them up he were cleaning 'em you know.
He were sweeping 'em as they come in?
R- Yes.
So they weren’t new looms?
R - No they couldn't have been ‘cause he were sweeping a lot. There must have been like a lot from other mills. I should think some were new looms, I should think them were what you call 60” , there used to be some 60” inch looms.
Yes, aye.
R- And then there were some fifties, now them were old ‘uns, them were old ‘uns when they came. They'd be reight old looms, I can remember them. 'Cause I were on two of them 50”. But them 60” ones were new ones.
Aye. And, now then, I were just going to ask you sommat then ... oh! can you remember who were running the engine.
R- Well wait a minute, let me go back, I can remember two or three. I’d like to think it were Martin Grace.
Yes, I think you might be right.
R- And then after him, after Martin, a chap that lived on Calf Hall Road, what did they call him, a plumpish fellow, what the heck did they call him? [I think Jack might be wrong here. I think Billy Chatwood might have been the first engineer at Bancroft. He had a club foot and his sister wove there as well. After Martin Grace there was George Hoggarth, then George Bleasdale and then SG.] ..I’ll miss his name and then, Martin Grace and then him, he lived on Calf Hall Road, I know he did. Then after him there’d be Hoggarth happen.
Aye,
R - Hoggarth and then after Hoggarth it’d be… Eh, who would it be after Hoggarth? Did him from Foulridge follow Hoggarth?
(150) (10 min)
Now wait a minute, just let me trigger you off a bit.. a little bit there and just see..
R - I can remember four. I can remember four for engine drivers there.
Hoggarth at one time had to go off poorly.
R- Aye, aye he had did George.
Aye. And somebody else took over and run it for a bit.
R- Aye that's right.
Can you remember anything about that? Can you remember anything about there being any trouble between Hoggarth and the fellow that came to run it for him.
R - Oh aye I think I can. Yes, I think I can. It runs in my mind there wore sommat yes.
Understand, I'm trying not to tell you what happened, I’m trying to trigger you off and get you to tell me.
R- Now wait a minute, wait a minute, eh there were sommat. Aye there were, I remember now wi’ George and this fellow, yes. Eh tha knows I used to know George right well.
We’ll leave that for a bit. I'm not going to tell you what it were. We'll leave that for a bit
R- It weren't wi’ him at Foulridge and George, were it?
No, it were a fellow that came to look after the engine while George were off and evidently George come up one day, before he started work again, and he didn't like condition of engine house, everything were reight mucky. And I’ve been told that sommat happened after that and I'm not going to tell you what it were. I’m going to leave you alone and…
R- I don't think I shall remember, but I can remember sommat happened.
Well you never know. Tomorrow morning or sometime it might just come into your mind. Anyway we'll leave that, because I don't want to trigger you about that because I just want to see if you… Because I’ve been told this tale and I don't know whether it's right or not and I just want to see if..
R – There’s something happened though, because now when you've tickled it off it comes back now. I can’t pinpoint it but it might just come.
It’ll come, it'll come. So it doesn’t matter, don't bother about that. These things happen, we'll just..
R- I can remember 'em now, talking about it.
Aye.
R - Aye.
Anyway.
R - I'm trying to think of that other name though.
That'll come and all.
R- But I think Martin Grace would be the first ‘un.
Aye, that’ll come and all, I’ll remind you about it, we'll come back to it.
R- And the other name’s gone but I know he lived on Calf Hall Road.
Aye. Anyway you were working there [at Bancroft] and then you had your bit of an accident. Tell me about the black powder in the quarry.
R- What black powder?
Black powder, when you laid a trail of black powder.
R - Oh aye. What do you mean? Well see..
Go on tell me about that.
R- They had this here little stone building, they called that the magazine you know.
(200)
Aye.
R- So we're up there, we allus used to be in quarry you know; bloody hell we never leaved 'em alone. So anyway we decided we’d like, we'd have a look in this little magazine. It had only a little wood door on. Anyway we soon get into there and there's a cask about of black jack, about that big you know.
Like a forty gallon drum.
R- Aye like, that's right. So we get's him out and we lays a trail about from here happen to my pen gate, down at bottom..
Aye.
R- A fair long trail of black jack.
Aye.
R- And then puts can back like open and in the hut you know.
Aye.
R - Back in the magazine and then, [laughs] goes to and near rocks then, because we lights this here match and then we jumps behind this here big rock. Hee Hee! And then all at once WHAM! it come a reight Whoof tha knows and I can just remember saying to George look at that bloody door, it's flying up through th’air, out of sight. Door and frame. Dosta know they tried for months to get to know who'd done that.
(Laughter from Stanley)
R- Because we’d had a bit of a do before then tha knows, we’d getten into the office at the quarry. There were a double barrelled gun and five cartridges tha knows. So I puts one of these here cartridges in and we goes round to see if there's owt to shoot, and there's only a sparrow, a bird. So I takes a pot shot at that and George goes and looks, he said I can’t find the bird, but there’s its bloody feathers here! He said You've blown it out of it's feathers! Well they were on about that then tha knows, we were frightened to death of 'em getting to find out about this here. Getting to know about the gun job. But as it happened it were old Sam Horrocks’ gun that had lent it Sagars.
Aye.
R- Well George were wi’ us tha knows,
Aye.
R- But I remember that little powder magazine even now when I have a walk. We have a walk round the quarry some times, I'm forced to laugh when I look up that way and see it.
Which quarry were that, top ‘un or bottom one?
R- Top ‘un.
Top ‘un aye. aye.
R - It were just higher up than where the saw mills were were the powder magazine.
Aye.
R- Aye.
Aye well I want to ask you a lot more about the quarries there. Now then, of course you had the accident with the detonators and then you went on the milk round.
R - Aye we started taking milk then, you know, for a bob or two.
(250)
Yes. And then how long was it after that, did you go from the milk round to working in quarry?
R- Yes I started in the quarry when I were sixteen.
Yes now, well you'd be like nearly seventeen, wouldn't you?
R- Aye yes. Oh aye I were nearly seventeen.
Now how did you get your job in quarry, did you know somebody that worked there?
R- Well I lived up Tubber Hill you know.
Yes.
R- And old John says, he used to see us playing about, and he used to say “I can find you a nice little job if tha wants one.” You know, wi’ it happening in the quarry [Jack’s accident]I expect, it were no fault of theirs but, and I think they were fined for not having a reight place, you see what I mean. But I think he found me a job 'cause of that. Do you see it were in Sagar's quarry.
Aye..
R - You see. Well I think they got fined a fair bit you know, for not having 'em. For not having the detonators locked away. Well we found 'em without any trouble you see, they weren’t locked away.
Aye.
R - And one day I'm on Tubber Hill and he says “I can find you a job if you want one"? I says “Yes I want one.” And that's how I come to start at the quarry and I were there like twenty years you know. [1921 to 1939, 18 years actually.]
Yes. So right, come on, when you went to quarry what did you do at quarry?
R- He pushed me on at quarry like, I'll give him his due there. Well I started like doing what little ‘uns do like, mug jobs, at first you know. And then I got learning to saw, stone saws you know.
Aye, how were the stone saws worked?
R- Wi’ a gas engine.
Aye.
R- And then I got from sawing to looking after the gas engine. It's like I said, he pushed me on a bit. And then I got moved from the top then and asked if I'd take over in the bottom shop and I took the gas engine ower and time-keeping and setting of saws.
Aye.
R - You see I had ‘em all to, I’d ask him what he wanted cutting, whether they were five inch, six inch, seven inch, eight inch, nine inch, ten inch, eleven inch up to a foot.
Aye.
R- Whatever he wanted cutting out of big, you know, out of bottom rock aye. Blocks, we called 'em blocks, you know, they were like owt to ten to twelve ton them. Just what the crane ‘ud lift, you know.
Yes.
R- And then I’d set 'em out, set the saws for cutting 'em you see. If you were cutting sixes you'd set your blades at six and a quarter to allow for the blades you know.
Yes.
R - And they'd come out six inch.
Yes.
R- And then when they were cut you'd turn 'em over flat and then if you wanted six by five you'd set 'em at five. If you wanted twelve by six same as for, you know, you'd set 'em out that way.
(300)
What were the saw blades made of?
R - Oh steel.
Yes.
R - Steel blades.
Yes.
R - And you fed 'em wi’ shot. You fed 'em with steel shot..
Yes,
R- You mixed it wi’ slurry, that’s what used to run out of the cuts.
Yes aye.
R - We call it slurry, you know.
Aye.
R - It weren’t that what cut it. It were the shot. Because if you were running out of shot, if your shot were getting low, you'd find they'd get red hot would your blades.
Aye.
R. - I've seen 'em as red as that fire, the blades.
Aye.
R - Oh aye.
Even with water running on 'em?
R- Aye there were a tap running over every one. You'd about sixty taps you know, and they swung like that you know.
Aye.
R - Across you see, there were a span. You could set 'em in-between for a long block or a short block.
Yes.
R - And it ‘ud swing it ‘ud be swinging all time. Now you'd four tubs on your stage two at each side and you were like on a stage yourself, up so as you could, you know, see on top of the rock..
(20 min)
R - And you fed out of them tubs, this slurry and shot, you see. And you fed 'em on and it were like, it were like clayish in a way but not clay.
Yes.
R- And that ‘ud wash in.
Yes.
R - Well you only mix it with this here, what you call stone dust, it were wet. You only had it with them. You mixed it wi’ them shot, it used to wash it in as the water come it washed it down the cracks.
Yes.
R- And you see your blades are on, your saws are on a swing and when it used to jet these blades ‘ud lift a touch and your shot ‘ud go under it. That's when you'd hear that noise ... ... (indescribable grating noise) you know, noise. It were the shot you know, like pellets in a gun but very small, but round shot like tapioca, small tapioca.
Yes, that's it aye. And did you use them again or did they just go through once.
R- Oh now you, when you'd finished cutting your stone, you'd pick.. you picked all that up and put it back in your feeding tub. And then like you always kept a bag on your stage, shot, and put more shot in.
Yes.
R- You allus get that, well.
So the blades didn't actually have teeth on?
R- Oh no. Once it, if a blade got sharp you'd to take it out.
Aye.
R- Because you see, if you'd set it to cut six inch and it got sharp, well it goes off then doesn’t it, it's eighth of an inch thick you know.
Yes, aye.
R- It ‘ud go off then. It ‘ud start veering, it ‘ud run out to ten inch.
(350)
Aye.
R- Instead of being six inch, you know, what I mean, it ‘ud start coming like that, well you'd to wind up then, what you call wind your frame up.
Yes.
R- And start rubbing it again from where it had started.
That's it.
R- And it ‘ud come down and you'd see a little run off at the side.
What did you do with the blades Jack. When a blade had got sharp like that, what did you do, grind it off?
R- No, turn it over.
Aye.
R- Take it out and turn it over and put it in again if it, you know, what we call ‘dogs’, you know.
Yes.
R- And they fit in and then you put a steel pin through 'em.
R- And then you, it came reight through your frame and you put a cotter pin in you know, a cotter.
Yes.
R- Narrow to large, and you drove them down wi’ a hammer, tight, one at each side.
[Jack is talking about opposing, wedge shaped cotters, a common engineering solution for making a really solid connection between two components.] You see you have to have 'em tight. So you'd to turn it over 'cause they used to like get half moons on.
That’s it Aye.
R- You see, aye.
Once they'd worn both sides that were it they were scrapped?
R- Oh that were it, you threw 'em out then yes.
Aye.
R- 'Cause a chap used to come for 'em every so often, you know.
Aye where did they come from do you know?
R- Oh they used to come by rail. Sheffield I think. I know we allus got good blades.
Aye. I have seen some of ‘em I think and they were like wavy. Have I seen some that weren’t just plain flat steel, they were like wavy, or is that how they've worn.
R- Wavy.
Is that how they've worn, you know like a bread knife is sometimes, you know, sort of wavy.
R- Aye.
I have an idea I've seen some stone saws that were like fluted on sides.
R- Oh they'd be for a different kind of thing then to ours.
Aye. I were watching some working the other day up in the Lake District.
R- They weren’t circulars were they?
Yes. This was what I were watching the other day and it were diamond tipped.
R - Aye.
And it were running in water.
R – Aye.
And that was cutting up to four foot blocks and it were circular you can tell the size of that.
R- Aye.
And by God, it could cut.
R - Aye.
And they had a saw working same as yours did but working horizontal with blades. You know, slabbing big blocks.
R- Aye.
And they were diamond tipped, they were flat blades and they were diamond tipped.
R- Aye.
And they just run water into the cracks on it and cut? Eh, the cut were beautiful Jack.
R- Oh well they are you see. You'd to feed 'em right. I’ll just point sommat out to thee wi’ this door jamb. Oh, oh we can’t.
Aye that’s reight, aye.
R- With the door jamb, so if tha can come. This is what I mean.
(Pause) [At this point we disconnected the microphones and went to look at the finer points of stone sawing on the door jambs of Jack’s house which came out of the quarry where he worked.]
So, so you were working on the saws. Now if you, obviously when you start, you saw a piece of stone in quarry and you're sawing it out of a big block. The ends aren’t straight. You're just sawing 'em off and they'll have rough ends until you've faced it. You'll like face four sides of it and it’ll have rough ends and then you'll cut it to the length that you want for the lintel or jamb or whatever you want, won't you.
R- That's reight aye, that's right. Well you see, the rock getter does all the cutting. [Of the blocks]
Aye.
R- The man up in the rock you know. Same as if you wanted an exceptionally long length, say a twelve footer, you'd go up and ask him to get you one.
Aye.
R- You know a twelve footer, well he’d have to get one about twelve foot, well we'll say ten foot. He’d have to get one about eleven foot then, that's to clear your ends you know.
Yes. What were biggest sizes you cut up there Jack?
R- Er, twelve foot. Not many, but there were twelve foot. I should think them jambs ‘ud be as high as owt that were ever cut, you know in a way.
The normal run of things like, they'd be like, well they'll be eight foot like, would they?
R- Aye they'll be eight foot.
R- But I’ve seen 'em fetch 'em down you know, you can get a twelve or fourteen tonner on you know, on them, they'd bogies built especially for it with solid wheels you know.
Aye.
R- Like little train wheels, but solid.
Aye.
R- And then you see you’d a damn big lump of rock, happen about eight or nine or ten ton sunk into the ground at the back of your saw wi’ a bloody line on as thick as your wrist nearly. Well you used to hook a pulley on there, and then you used to run your wire rope under your, you know, under your saw, round your block, fetch it back and then you see it ‘ud pull it in.
Aye.
R- You know as you were winding up with the power crane on. You allus had a crane on the bed you know.
Aye.
R- On the saw bed and that used to pull it in and out,
Aye.
R- It were all crane work like.
Aye. You'd get used to shifting big heavy weights up there.
R - Oh aye.
And how about accidents up in the quarry Jack, were there many?
R- Oh aye, there were some bad accidents. Aye. chaps allus Said like, I didn't see this but they allus said, it were before I started. They allus said that one chap that used to be rock getter up there, that what did my hand, these here little things they used [detonators] to just put 'em on end of fuse, which a fuse ‘ud just fit in ‘em.
(450)
R- Fuse and nip 'em to wi’ his teeth.
Yes,
R- But one day he nipped, he were nipping one, and he hadn't a head like then.
Aye.
R- He nipped one to many.
Aye.
R- I've heard th’old quarry men talk about that many a time.
Aye, I've heard about that happening,
R- You'd allus to be careful wi’ 'em.
[I’ve had a bit of experience with explosives and what Jack is talking about are the original Nobel blasting caps which were in use until about 1930. The primary charge was 90/10 or 80/20 mixtures of fulminate of mercury and potassium chlorate. Whilst these were a great improvement on early blasting caps, they were still very dangerous. Excessive heat or impact could initiate them, this was what happened to Jack when he blew part of his hand off. His body heat plus scratching with a point was sufficient to initiate the detonator. The ‘Black Jack’ he mentioned earlier was black powder, a refined old-fashioned gunpowder. This is fairly stable but very flammable, it will only develop explosive force when initiated by flame if it is in large quantity and confined so that pressure can build up. The detonator is used to initiate a true explosion in the black powder by means of a shock wave. Black powder is still used as a secondary initiator for modern commercial explosives which are very stable. A detonator initiates a black powder charge which in turn initiates the main charge.}
Aye,
R- Well, after it did that wi’ me I believe it because there were no flames about wi’ us that day. It were heat, wi’ going in the canal and the heat of my body. Doctor could only come to the conclusion it were that what did it.
Aye. Aye well, they were fulminate weren’t they?
R- Aye that’s reight.
Aye and it's funny stuff is fulminate!
R - And there’s only that much in the bottom.
Aye.
R – Yes, gelignite, you know that?
Yes aye, fulminate of mercury.
R - Aye.
Aye.
R - So that's the only conclusion they could come to.
Aye well Hardisty got blinded up there didn't he?.
R - Oh well, that should never have happened.
Aye.
R- That shouldn't have happened. I’m saying no accident should happen should they, but that shouldn't have happened.
Aye.
R- Because it were against the rules of the quarry, it were against the rules of everything. There should have been somebody there not to allow them lads to do it. I don’t, I mean you've to know the rules and I don't suppose they did but it happened to me twice in me quarry career and I were there twenty year. If a shot fails like that you've to come home for twenty four hours. You leave everything for twenty four hours, you haven't to work near it.
Aye.
R - And then twenty four hours after you go on and the rock getter drills as near to it as he can. But knows that he isn't going to go into same hole. Say about that far. [Indicates 9”]
Aye.
R- Straight down and then set another explosive charge off you see. Now you see when they're drilling you know, there's two lads tapping. He's sat down is the rock getter wi’ a big rock drill.
Aye, a star drill.
R - Like a, chiselling away, you know what I mean.
Yes.
R - And he's turning as they tap, 'cause I've tapped hundreds of hours. When you start at first they put you on that job. And then they get all this here shale you know, from in between beds of rock, you can knock it up into like putty if you’ve noticed, shale, good shale.
Yes.
R - And they’ve to ram that jam tight, make it air tight you know into your powder hole after you've put your detonator in and your powder you know. Now if that misses [misfires, doesn’t go off when the fuse is lit. Sometimes called a ‘hang fire’.] you haven't to try nothing else. It missed you know and then they gave it an hour and then went up and drilled at side of it. Started drilling and it went off you see. It could only have been just a delayed fire.
(500) (30 Min)
R- Aye it should never have happened. It shouldn't have happened to that poor lad shouldn't that. Course it did do, accidents do. I think he got in to trouble a bit did Edgar about it.
What did they use?
R- I don’t know whether he ever got his compensation or not. Because he said he had nowt did Edgar, but it’s to be hoped he did. [Edgar Sagar was the son of John Sagar and lived at Eastcliffe on Tubber Hill which was built for him by John Sagar. John ran the quarries and I think he leased them off the Gledstone Estate.]
What did they used to use, did they use gelignite or black powder or what?
R - Well they used what, we allus called it Black Jack. It were like crystals, reight little, small.
Aye.
R- And them detonators.
Yes.
R- You see they’d put your detonator in and then ram it with powder and then shale.
Yes.
R- It used to shift some rock you know.
Aye.
R- Cor blimey, I'll say it did! Aye, it used to fetch pieces off. Loosen ‘em off the bed and split ‘em up. Well, as big as this house nearly you know. Oh it ‘ud shift it.
What else were they turning out up…
R- 'Cause they'd go five foot down you know.
Aye.
R- Well I mean it has to shift sommat when it's down there.
What else were they getting out up there Jack besides jambs and cills.
R- Besides cills and jambs and..
Yes.
R- Everything that you build houses wi’.
Aye.
R- You know, cills, jambs and you know, door steps, door jambs, window cills and jambs. Oh there were points that were for building jobs
Yes.
R - There were pavings for roads. They did a lot of that because they used to send two boat load away a week you know to Burnley.
Aye.
R - They'd two boats you know Ida and Alice, they called the boats after the lasses. Because when I were driving at first on the quarry, when I started driving, that were through our Annie’s husband you know, I allus used to be wi’ him. Well they bought a new wagon and they put me on the old Dennis and we used to take a load of setts to Burnley, to the top of Manchester Road, they were like on paving jobs then. A lot of pavings. And then we used to have to go half way down Manchester Road to the canal wharf where the boats landed and we’d empty the boat then. Well we’d be reight for two or three days then you know. Well we’d be reight for three days, but taking one at morning mind you, coming home at night and then taking another load and then back to the boat. And then two boat men used to help you and you'd cart 'em then from half way down Manchester Road to the top of Manchester Road do you see. Till you'd emptied the boat. Well you know, there were fifty ton in each boat, like that were hundred ton weren’t it. And Hartley Barrett and Oates Barrett from Foulridge used to be boat men.
Hartley and….?
R- Oates. They called him Oates.
Aye.
Oates, Hee Hee, he’d had his oats an all had Oates. Two grand fellows.
R- Barrett, his son is still on the haulage job yet, now.
Aye.
R- Walton Barrett that's his son.
That's it.
R- That's his father I'm talking about and his fathers brother, uncle Oates. They’d sleep in their boat then you see.
Aye that's it. Aye.
R - Well we had us meals in the boat, I used to like it, that job.
Aye.
R- In the cabin at dinner times tha knows.
Aye. And when you were working up here, obviously they’d have gangs on cutting setts out and what not and dressing points and what not. Were they paid on piece work or were they on day work or what?
(35 min)
R- All the banker hands were on piece work. All what you call banker hands.
Yes.
R- The rock getter weren’t. He were on by the hour. Hourly pay, but all the banker hands were on piece work.
Yes.
R - Sett makers, point makers. They were all the same men do you see.
Yes.
R- Some ‘ud be making points, some ‘ud be making setts, it just depended what job were going on at the time.
Aye. And they'd have a smith there would they, sharpening tools and what not.
R- Oh aye they’d a blacksmith in each place.
Yes.
R- There were Scotch Bob up there and if they hadn't one down here, he’d come from the top, you know, mornings - afternoons and vice versa.
R- And then they'd, but they generally had one at each place. They had a young fellow from Earby, Jack they called him, Jack. I’ve forgot his other name but he were a grand fellow. He were the blacksmith in the bottom shop while I were there. And Scotch Bob, now he were a lucky man, he went down in that hole bottom about three times off that crane. He were the crane driver and blacksmith. And he went down wi’t crane three times as I know on. They'd to go down and hunt him out, look for him.
What, trying to lift 'em too heavy?
R - He’d be off nearly twelve month at a time. Aye, it had pulled the crane ower and down goes crane and Bob and all. Luckiest chap alive were Scotch Bob.
Aye.
R- Aye. And then there were old Albert Roberts the rock getter.
Aye.
R- Eh, our Albert!
Must have been a hard life that Jack, in the quarry.
R - A rough old gentleman. A savage old man, but as kind a chap as you could work wi’. Isn't it funny. Old Albert.
Albert Roberts.
R- We all liked old Albert.
Aye.
R- Aye. Hee hee! What were the name? Oh aye. George Horrocks and me, we worked at the saw mills then on top of Tubber Hill and one day we were outside washing off you know, me and George. Oh I can tell, I know the name. And a woman shouted on us and she says “Is there a man called Biscuit works here?” We says “Biscuit, no we don't know no Biscuit” She says “His proper name's Albert Roberts.” Well, George Horrocks, he used to scream when he laughed. He says “Do you want him?” She says “Yes”. He says “Well, I’ll go and tell him.” So George went up and you see he went up the track, up the rail lines, that’s where the trucks used to come down from the quarry to the saw mill and he shouted "Biscuit". Well old Albert looked round, tha knows, and he comes like this did George he says, “There’s a woman wants thee!” He says “If thou ever shouts bloody Biscuit again I'll murder thee! I’ll throw thee down that hole!” I’ve never forgotten that day. And then another come another day, and I've forgotten t’other names, she asked for this here chap, on another day, but it ere a better ‘un than Biscuit. I’ve forgotten what it were. But does ta know, I laughed that day wi’ Biscuit. I laughed when he
got on to George, he says “I’ll murder thee if ever tha shouts Biscuit and lets them chaps hear thee again!” You know he were afraid of ‘em nicknaming him Biscuit. Hee hee! Oh we used to have some good laughs up in the quarry tha knows. They were a rough lot but they were a good lot, they were to young ‘uns. He were reight good to us were old Albert, we used to tap for him, me and George.
What do you mean, tap for him?
R- He used to look up through his moustache, water ‘ud be running off here when it was raining and [Jack imitates Albert sniffing the water of his moustache and laughs.] I used to laugh when he used to go for his dinner tha knows, there were no brew up up there, they used to fetch their tea up in bottles and tins and all sorts tha knows, and our Albert, his grub never took no putting up. He’d bring half a loaf out wi’ a big thick lump of butter on top and then a clonk of cheese and he’d be cutting big hunks off 'em both, tha knows, no messing about. And look at him, coldest day in winter tha knows, shirt open. All opened at front, he were hard old stick were Albert tha knows, old Albert Roberts he were, he's dead now though isn't he. He died, he married little Rosie didn't he.
Oh aye, that’s it, aye, Rosie Roberts. Aye.
R- Well tha knows, they nicknamed him Barm Pot up in the quarry, the men. Because of the way he worked. He used to work his self, well, he didn't work his self to a standstill, he must have had the guts of an elephant that feller! Cor, he’d just have, what did they used to call them pants? Moleskins weren’t they. Moleskins and his shirt, well there were no buttons on but he wouldn't have fastened 'em if there were. It were open reight down to the top of his moleskins. He were an hard old stick were Albert. He were that. He used to play hell wi’ George and me. Oh we’ve had some fun up there. 'Cause tha knows they think they have thee for mug tha knows, th’old quarry men when th’art only young. 'Cause George and me were only young tha knows, they'd all be at us unless we used to tell 'em. And they'd either throw a sett hammer at us or run us out of quarry or sommat. Old John's stopped ‘em many a time, we used to have some sport up there. But that, when they come for Albert there were another name I've heard for him, I’m trying to think about it but I can’t, it were a better ‘un than that. Eh, what were it, Biscuit were one though. I laughed when she said Biscuit..
You were on earlier on about, and obviously we heard about it before, but I don’t know anything about it. They used to have a little steam engine on the triangle on top of the drag there.
R- A little steam engine.
Aye for helping..
R- Yes.
Yes.
R- You see when they were carting stone up hill wi’ horse and carts, it were, well they couldn't get up that hill you know.
Yes.
R- So they used to lower this here. It were a long rope wi’ a lump of chain at the end and a hook.
Aye.
R- And at the other end of the shaft there were like a hook there where they used to put trace horses.
(750)
Yes, aye,
R - And they'd hook on there, you know with the hook and then wave and he’d set his engine off at top and it ‘ud pull it up, slowly,
Yes.
R- But horse speed you know.
Yes.
R - And then he’d just get on the bend at the top, swing round and then he’d unhook, oh aye.
Aye.
R - Aye it were there a long time.
Because otherwise if they went the low way they'd still have the hill to climb into Barlick. from t’other way so.,
A - That's right yes.
Aye, once they got up there like they only had that little bit of a snig past Robinsons Farm and then it's all down hill into Barlick. isn’t it.
R- Yes. Well, New Road weren’t made then you know.
No course no, there were no New Road.
R- No, there were no New Road you see. After the New Road, I mean, that's when really it were all cleared away up there.
Aye.
R- You see, well it were done away wi’ before then. It were done away wi’ really when motors come a bit better.
Yea,
R- You see what I mean when we got wagons you know.
Yes.
R- It used to be all horse work once didn't it.
Yes.
R - And after the New Road you see, all such as that were finished. But I remember that as plain as I'm sitting here.
R - That place at top.
Who ran that engine, was it..
R- Now I can’t tell you that, no, no.
Right.
R- I did. I’d know in them days but it's absolutely…
How did they go on Jack, wi’ horse and lorry, it ‘ud be four wheel wagons wouldn’t it? Or would it be two wheel carts?,
R- No th’old, you know, two wheeled do.
Aye. How did they go on when they got like coming down Tubber Hill and Manchester Road and Colne Road into Barlick?
R- Well I’ll tell you how they’ve gone on ‘cause I've seen two horses shot, in my school days. Tubber Hill, horses that got away wi’ ‘em coming downhill. And they've run into, you know, lamed there self, broken you know. Setting off and then coming a cropper and had to be shot. Last ‘un I saw were aside of the wood shop. There used to be a wood shop you know, at bottom of Tubber Hill. Haworth had it, he lived in Lane Bottoms.
Aye.
R- And he had a joiners shop there, a sawmill.
Aye.
R- He had a sawmill there you know.
Whereabouts were that Jack?
R- Right as you turn, you know where you turn down Lane bottoms?
R- Right there on your left hand side, that patch of ground. Aye. There were a wood shop, Firewood King we allus, they nicknamed him Firewood King. Aye, Called him [Jim] Haworth aye. Aye. He were a Bolshie, a reight Bolshevik. We nicknamed him the Firewood King.
Well how did they slow the horses down, did they, what did they do, skid 'em down?
R- Well they could only put brakes on and they'd a big chop of wood or sommat tha knows. Did they used to put it in front of a wheel?
Aye, skid pan.
R- Skid pan. Sommat like that, put it under the wheel aye. But this horse, Prince it were called and I know, I can just remember him talking to it you know. Aye they’d to shoot it, we were there, it had broken it legs or sommat.
Aye, it must have been hard for horses coming down there.
(45 min)
R- Oh aye. 'Cause I know Sagars had horses, he’d three. Oh aye, good horses, three. He’d Robin, Charlie, Charlie, Robin and I’ve forgotten t’other, I knew two on ‘em. I knew Robin and Charlie, I've forgotten t’other. 'Cause me and George used to ride 'em on to them fields just past the water works of an evening. When they were running ‘em out.
Aye.
R- You know on the right hand side past the water works. We run ‘em on there, in through a gate and on to a field.
(850)
Aye.
R- Jockeying, Hee hee!
Aye. And how long were you working there Jack, at the quarry?
R - At quarry? Well, I’d be seventeen when I started and I'd be, how old would I be when I finished, thirty one happen. Thirty two when I finished. A fair do weren’t it.
Aye, that's thirty two. So that's, that ‘ud be 1937, just afore the war.
R- That's reight,
Aye.
R- Yes. Aye that's right.
Aye, and what did you finish there for?
R – Before the war were it that?
Well, thirty seven. How old did you say you were, thirty two?
R- Aye.
Well if you were born in 1905.,
R- To thirty four.
Thirty four.
R- I remember.
Oh well that were 1939 then.
R - Aye what were on then?
Just when war started.
R- That’s right, well I left to go to Steeton to earn more money and I threbled [sic] (trebled) me wage doing that.
Aye.
R- Well I'll tell you how it come about, we were frozen off..
Aye,
R- It were frozen off up at quarry, and as a rule when we were frozen off at quarry and there were any snow and we had to sign on we never signed on, they allus put us on snow shifting. We liked it because we’d a penny an hour more you see.
[When it was freezing, work had to stop at the quarry, not because of the inclement weather and the welfare of the men, but because the stone couldn’t be got or worked in a frost, it would shatter rather than split.]
(900)
Aye.
R- And wi’ me being on the wagon, during the time I were on the wagon they used to put me wi’ the snow plough. Because I once hooked the snow plough on at the Greyhound and went to go to Standing Stone Gate and then start coming back you see. So I went up and when I got out at Standing Stone Gate I'd no bloody snow plough on! Hee hee! This is as true as I’m here.
(Laughter from Stanley)
R- Come back and it's round t’corner of the Greyhound. Hee hee! Eh, and I thought I were going up easy.
Is that when you used to drag the snow plough behind you?
R- Aye.
Aye. Big wooden ‘un.
R- Aye, never knew it weren’t on, but I thought it takes no moving doesn’t this thing’ it’s a doddle. Well when I get to the end of me do, I weren’t going to get out, it were cold and snowing see.
Aye.
R- So I went full length, Stanley said, I’d a mate wi’ me, that's best part on it. We’re talking away, gets to Standing Stone Gate and he gets out, he says “There is nowt Jack” And I says “Hows ta mean?” He says “Plough isn't here!” And we found it where we’d hooked it on, we’d never, it weren’t hooked on..
(Stanley laughs)
R- No, it's reight is that Stan. So we get going after that, well I liked it tha knows. I could stop in there, snug, it were better pay.
(950)
R- So this time we were frozen off and Steeton had opened [The Royal Ordnance Factory starting war production.]and I thought when I go down to the dole in the morning to sign on I’m going to ask 'em if there's owt doing at Steeton. Now when 1 were going, there were a lad called Arthur Fawcett, not Fawcett bookie, another Arthur, it's his cousin.
Yes.
R- Arthur Fawcett, he had two children, he lives ower Coates. And I telled him where I were going, he says “I'll go on with you Jack.” We both went on and we get on and I were at Steeton two year and I were trying to get out a year and a half of that before I did get out. I hated it.
Aye.
R- Being closed in. Oh hell, talk about being closed in. You know, blackouts and all that.
Aye.
R- Even though me wage went from three pound odd to twelve pound. I felt like a millionaire tha knows, drawing this twelve pound after what we’d been drawing but I just couldn't stick it. So I thought, I'll get a doctor’s certificate, that's all you could
get off wi’. So you'd to go to a doctor at Colne, Dr. Eastham or sommat, I don't know, sommat like that. So I went, I made an appointment and went. Telled him what I'd come for so I'd to strip off. He says what do you want to give ower for? “Well it isn't doing for me.” he says “I'll tell you sommat”, he says “I'm not bad meself but I wish I were half as good as thee! Get back to work!!”
(Stanley and Jack laugh)
R - He did, ask Mona.
SCG/24 December 2002
8795 words.