THIS TAPE HAS BEEN RECORDED ON THE 15th of JUNE1979 AT 9 SACKVILLE STREET, BARNOLDSWICK. THE INFORMANT IS JACK PLATTT AND THE INTERVIEWER IS STANLEY GRAHAM.
Now last time we were talking we were on about the weft job.
R – Yes.
Now of course, as the mills started to back off…
R – Yes.
The weft job started to get a bit thin, didn't it.
R - Yes that's right.
Now what happened then, what replaced it Jack? Was it completely replaced, did some of the firms finish.
R - Well a lot finished you know that were on just the weft job but we automatically went on, we kept on with Johnson's work you know. Johnson & Johnson’s at Gargrave you know.
Yes.
R - We allus did their work, we used to have to shove it in wi’ t’other. Two wagons stop off and three go to Manchester, you know wi’ cloth, but that's when we started long distance then. That’s when he put us on to long distance you see.
And what were, what were the start of that, were it the container job then, or were it flat work. [Flat work is carrying loads which are simply stacked on the bed of the wagon, and roped and sheeted. Containers are the modern steel boxes which are pre-loaded and lifted on to the flat. They require no loading, sheeting or roping.]
R - No it were flat work for a long time. Flat work for a long time afore we did containers. You know, finding us own loads. We used to go to Liverpool see, to clearing houses, you know.
Yes. [Jack knew that I was familiar with tramp work because I’d done it so he doesn’t explain clearing houses. These were places where a driver could go to get a load. They were sometimes specialist agents who did nothing but find wagons for firms that needed them but increasingly became haulage contractors who skimmed off the best work for themselves and farmed out then rest to private hauliers. This was good business for them as it gave them a cushion against lean times and meant they could keep their own vehicles fully occupied. This was a minefield for the tramp drivers unless they had regular work with certain clearing houses. Once you were in a strange place you got the worst work and often didn’t get paid. This was a very good way of sorting the good drivers from the bad!]
R - He didn’t find us work, we found us own work.
Aye, you were like tramping.
R- Yes well, we were tramping, we were on the tramp for about nine or ten year I should think before we went on to containers you know.
Aye, and who did you get most of your work off? Who were the regulars?
R- Well, us regular one at London were Verlin’s you know. They used to like save loads for us, and he allus used to try to save us a load for Glasgow see. Well that were our week then. If we could go from here to London, tip off and then go into Verlin’s and he’d save us sommat, because we took a lot of stuff from Barking you know too, that like were for Glasgow. All round Glasgow, and then we used to go to what you call old Mac’s on Broomilaw there for return loads 'cause we allus used to get ten bob of him like for using him you know. Well, ten bob in them days were ten bob, I could get bed and breakfast then for ten bob tha knows.
[In the late 60’s when I was running tramp regular between London and Glasgow I used to stay in the Belgrove Hostel in Gallowgate for 8/- and park my wagon in the Old Cattle Market where we paid street urchins 2/- to ‘look after your wagon mister’. If you did this you never had any trouble!]
R- We had a good place. And we used to go to, wait a minute, I’m trying to think of the name where we used to pick up… Gartcosh. we used to go to Gartcosh then. [In 1930 Colvilles acquired the majority of ordinary shares in Smith & McLean Ltd. By 1953 they had acquired the all the shares. They produced hot rolled steel for the motor industry. Under nationalisation, British Steel took over the works and in 1986 closed it.]
Aye.
R - Back in there like for steel for, what's that big motor firm? Ford's at Dagenham, Ford's at Dagenham. They used to unload us wi’ a magnet there you know, it were steel see. It weren’t reight good rated stuff but it were, kept you on the road all the time, get about. [By ‘rated’ Jack means the rate you got for the job, usually so much a ton. The way the system worked was that you would take poor rates because this paid the expenses to get you back to somewhere where you could get a better rate and get into profit. The trick was to spend as little time on low rates as possible.] ..I can remember the first time I went in [to Colville’s]. We asked ‘em for, you know, if they’d owt for London and they said yes. This were old Mac and he sent us to this here Gartcosh and give us notes. We got in and I backed in first, there were me and Gordon Westwell. Well, I'd th’old ERF then and when I were coming out I thought cor, I've a spring gone. I get outside and Westwell looked, he said “Tha’rt low down!” And I looked, I says “Hell, I am low down!” It had flattened the springs out. So I went in for me ticket, 15 ton! Hee hee! Well, it were only an eight tonner tha knows! So I went back, I says “Is it alright if I can reverse in? If it'll stand it, the wagon, and take half of that load of?” I says “I daren’t take more than eight ton
on that.” Tha knows wagons only, like they used to be then. I mean eight ton were, well we hadn't to put more than eight ton on by order tha knows.
Aye.
R- And they laughed. “Oh” they said “We’re sorry, we thought it were a good load what you'd backed in for when you come in!” ‘Cause you know there were still six wheelers then weren’t there.
Aye.
R - So anyway they took one lot off and it left me about eight ton twelve on so I thought. He said “Is that too much?” I said no that'll do me. Well, that load it had on, it’d have took me a ruddy fortnight to get home to Barlick never mind go to London, 'cause we were coming home before we went through to London tha knows.
Aye.
R - But that were the first do, now after that it were a regular do. Odd times he’d send us up to, eh now, it's just coming out of Glasgow, I only read there were sommat going on there in the paper not long since. Oh I’ve forgetten the name of the place but it were a little place and there were like an estate there and we used to go to a typewriter works, you know typewriters. Used to loaden all sorts of stuff such as that. They used to loaden thee up. All for down London to a depot there, we used to go to though then.
No well, weight limit for a four wheeler, you could load 'em up to fourteen ton couldn't you.
R - Aye.
It didn’t matter what a four wheeler was, you could load it up to fourteen ton.
R - Yes, but we only carried up to eight, eight tonners, they used to call ours eight tonners but… [Jack is talking about what the manufacturers rated their trucks as. In his case the ERF was rated as an eight tonner and John Wild wasn’t going to exceed this. In practice you could overload 50% with care.]
(5 min)
Yes but what I mean..
R- I know what you mean.
You were legal up to a gross weight of fourteen tons.
R- Oh, gross! That's right yes, your gross weight. [Gross weight was tare {weight of empty wagon} plus net {the weight of the load}. The wagon I had on tramp was 4 tons tare and so I could load ten tons net. Jack’s was a better wagon and so would be a higher tare weight]
Yes.
R - Oh yes that’s right.
Yes.
R- Yes.
'Cause I remember that when I were tramping for Billy [Harrison Brothers of Elslack]that Bedford I had, it weighed four ton. And you know I used to put, and it only reckoned to be like a seven ton wagon you know. I used to put ten ton on it regular.
R - Oh aye, well I’ve put ten ton on but It were John Wild's rules, eight to nine ton no more, you know.
Oh It were enough, it were enough.
R - Aye.
1 know when I were overloaded like, many a time I had more on [Than ten ton] you know. I mean I've seen me many a time…
R - Course I'm going back a long while wi’t ERF.
Yes, but I always used to know if I could get up Buckhaw Brow I could manage [All the hills up to Scotland] Because that were the steepest bit.
R- Aye but th’old ERF ‘ud bounce up, but wi’t Albions we were allus, we give over sweating when we got to the top of Buckhaw.
That's it ‘cause you knew you were all reight.
R- Oh I’ve seen ‘em, we used to just manage it. If you'd to draw out to pass one that were stuck.. I used to think I hope I can get round it, because they were on their last legs when they get to the top. Couldn't have gone much further. Oh it were a stiff ‘un were Buckhaw.
You never see that now.
R - I've seen some wagons stuck up there.
Yes, they never think about that now.
R - No..
I mean it's alright, they've all got their three hundred horse motors now.
R- Yes.
I mean, you know yourself, them old Guy Otters.
R- Aye.
They were only about sixty horse power, them 3LW's they had in ‘em didn't they. [The engine was a Gardner 3LW, three cylinders. The LW series had 20hp per cylinder and they made them in 3,4,5 and 6cylinder configuration. Guy Motors were fitting these until the 1960’s]
R - Aye.
They were only about sixty horse weren’t they.
R - That's right yes. Well this what I were on, [the ERF with a] Gardner, it were a five pot you know. [100hp and very good torque rating. Torque was the pulling power and Gardners were famous for being high torque engines for their size.]
Aye.
R - It were a good ‘un mind you, it would have took twelve ton anywhere...
Aye.
R - But I dare say John used to think about speed. You'd allus be like creeping you know, well I mean, the speed limit were only twenty mile an hour then you know because I were fined £4 for doing twenty two.
Where were that at?
R - We were going to Bristol that day, we’d been to Bristol and I were coming back loaded up and this here, no twenty four, I made a mistake. Twenty four miles an hour that were it I thought. He pulled me in, waved me in you know and he said “what speed was you doing down there?” I says “Oh about twenty to twenty two.” I thought I’ll not tell a lie, I'll just put that. He says “We followed you and you were doing twenty four two or three times.” I said “Well, twenty four isn't fast is it?” He said “It's too much.” “Well” I says, “How long have you been following me?” He says “About two mile.” Because I were on good roads you know. I said “Well during that two mile there's a wagon and trailer passed me.” there were trailers then. I says “There's all sorts passed me.” He says “Yes, they passed me!” I says “Well why bother wi’ me then when them have passed us. I says “This'll only do twenty two or three flat out.” He says “You were doing twenty four.” and I got fined four quid. Aye, marvellous isn't it.
Aye.
R - 'Cause when I telled John Wild he said “Well, you can’t be kidding me because I know what it will do!” Because John did, because they were governed you know, and you were really on 'em at twenty two. Well, twenty three, you wore really rattling if you'd [got your foot down] It were only like creeping them days weren’t it. I mean, that's why you could only do two [trips] a week. Well you see, when we get the new AECs we could roll three off. Three London's a week.
(150)
Aye.
R - And have time in hand to th’old two a week. You know.
Aye. It takes some believing doesn’t it now, you can’t think. You know sometimes just for a laugh when I'm driving along road now, I’ll slow down to twenty mile an hour and drive at twenty for a bit and it's just unbelievable isn't it when you think.
R - Yes. It takes more believing this way. When I started driving at first it were twelve mile an hour.
Aye.
R - And I were on a solid tyre at Sagar’s quarry.
Yes.
R - On an old Dennis and I used to take sand to the tram shed at Burnley and they used to tip it in the drying shed. They dried it you see and then put it on the trams in these boxes.
(10 min)
Yes. aye.
R - For the brakes,
Yes.
R- And anyway, I'm coming home, no, wait a minute, yes I'm coming home. It's late and it's getting a bit, you know, it goes dark about four o'clock doesn't it and we used to have to light th’old oil lamps you know.
Aye.
R- And I light up at Burnley that were it and I gets into Barrowford and a Bobby rides past, Ginger they called him, he’d a bad name. And just as he got up to me pedalling he said “Your tail light’s out” and then he went riding past me. That’s the speed that they used to do them days isn’t it.
Aye.
R - And then another time I get fined fifty bob and that were a lot of money then, fifty bob. I were going through Nelson Centre and I got done for going through there. I think it were at fourteen mile an hour and that's reight. And dosta know, he made such a song about it, I telled him I said well, fourteen mile an hour, I could run faster! I thought he were going to clap me in jail for a fortnight I'm not kidding thee.
Aye.
R- He made such a song as never. Anyway he said it had to be paid within seven days so I thought well, I haven’t got fifty bob. I hadn’t. So I come back and telled Sagar and he says “Well that barn to have to pay it!” I says “No I'm not” He says “Tha'll have to do.” I says “Oh no I won’t because I'm not going to go down for about a month. What's the alternative, I haven’t fifty bob.” And he says “Well anyway, we can’t spare thee just now, they're fast wi’ that job.” And it were that place that they built on right hand side at Cannons, It's Prestige now or sommat.
Yes.
R - Or it were then.
Platers and Stampers.
R - Platers and Stampers, that's right.
That's what it used to be.
R – That’s reight Platers and Stampers and it's Prestige or sommat now.
Prestige now, aye.
R- Well we were leading to them when they were building it so you can tell how long it is since and that were the time.
Aye.
R- And if we hadn't have been busy and they were working ower time at quarry to keep them going, I think meself I’d have had to do jail for all Sagar would have bothered. I wouldn't have done it like, but tha knows what I mean.
(200)
Aye.
R - Tha knows what John Sagar's were.
Anyhow, about the other haulage firms in Barlick Jack at that time, you know that had been on weft you know, I mean.
R- Aye there were Clarks.
Well, Clarks were bought out by Stockbeck and they went down the Swannie more or less didn’t they, quietly.
R- Yes. And then there were Emmott Garnett’s. There were Aspin’s, there were Ashley and somebody, Barrett’s had their own wagon, Pickles’ had their own wagons.
How about Jack Pickles that lives opposite the Dog?
R - Widdup had. Eh, who, Gara?
Jack Pickles that lives opposite, yes Gara. [Gara was a byname for Garibaldi, his forename]
R- Aye.
Now weren’t his dad a carter or haulage or sommat?
R – Aye, horse and cart, little flat, aye.
Aye. Not wagons then?
R - Oh no.
R - No they’d just, I can just picture him, little fat chap sat on, he used to sit on a sack tha knows at corner [of the flat] didn’t he.
Aye.
R – Th’horse ‘ud go by itself, they knew where they wore going, he’d just be sat there old Gara.
Aye he were..
R – I knew him, aye all the school kids knew him, old Gara.
That's it aye.
R- Aye well Jack, we knew him like wi’ Jack going to school an all. He were th’only lad in school with long pants on then were Jack. He geet a pair of' khaki pants off somebody and he wore 'em for school, long pants. Hee hee!
So when the mills finished quite a lot of these little firms went out.
R- Well it caused chaos. There were [a lot went out] I don't know all the other names but one were Ashley ‘cause it were Mona’s uncle. Ashley and somebody, they went out. Garnett's finished, Aspin's finished and, well there were a lot finished you know, there were. I think Pickles’ selled their wagons, they used to have wagons you know.
Yes.
R- And then there were who-is-it's, Clark’s, they more or less went didn't they as well.
Yes they sold out to Stockbeck, aye.
R- They sold out to Stockbeck.
And then Nutter's had their own wagons.
R - Nutter's had their own.
And they gave up.
R - If they get overloaded wi’t work we used to do odd loads for ‘em you know. Aye, well we, it made a good trade really then for Wild's because like what were left of weaving, they nearly did it all because we went to all the mills nearly in Barlick, picking cloth up. Kept five wagons going you know.
Yes.
R- Like while it lasted.
Yes.
R – Aye.
And then of course John got on wi’t containers.
R- Not right away, after we finished wi’t tramping. Well this here container job had started then hadn't it.[The railways were the first to start using containerised freight, they started before the war but it wasn’t until the 1960’s that freight containers as we know them today started to be used regularly. At first they were the twenty foot container which would fit comfortably on a four wheeler flat.] John went on to Preston a time or two and he got on, and it were the best days work he ever did for his drivers, you know what I mean, just going in there and picking a box up. And I'll tell you sommat else, if John hadn't have died it ‘ud have gone on a lot longer would Wild's, it ‘ud have still been going to-day. Because John wanted to get units you know, and leave body there wit trailer and coming home with the unit, you know what I mean.
Yes.
R - Fetch your unit home, you know. [The unit is the tractor unit. Jack is of course talking about converting to articulated wagons.]
Yes.
R - And then go and [pick your load up] because John ‘ud have gone on and backhanded them, which he used to do. [a backhander is a slang name for a bribe] 'cause they were allus No.1 in there were Wild's in the beginning when John were living you know.
Aye.
R- Number one were Wild Brothers aye, you could allus tell. 'Cause he were a good chap for this here, to them that mattered see.
Yes.
R - Now we could have come home, dropped us trailer there, and John ‘ud have seen to it that they take the trailer under the crane at morning and put another on. And all we’d have to do would be to go and that were hatching when John died. Well of course t’other hadn't the brains nor the, he wouldn't use his loaf wouldn't Edgar.
Aye.
R- Allus too tight wi’t money weren’t he.
Aye.
R - He wouldn't take no chances so that died out and it just, after the long distance it were just nothing you know. It just faded and faded.
Aye.
R - He were frightened of changing wagons, getting up, keeping up to date, because John allus did you know.
Aye.
R - Frightened of, oh he wanted to draw in but he didn't want to pay out, you know what I mean.
Yes.
R- That wore Edgar, although he's dead, I mean no harm to him but he weren’t a man for expanding anything. I think with John, I think Wild Brothers ‘ud have been going to-day.
Aye and like Albert and Billy didn't really set their stall out. [John’s sons]
R - Oh no.
Did they, not to get work in haulage.
R - Well you see young Bill would have done, young Bill had it all there, he were like his dad. But not Albert, he took after his Uncle Edgar.
Aye.
R - Them remaining men wouldn't have stuck so long at Wild's but for young Bill.
Aye.
R- Nobody called Bill among the lads you know because if you were grumbling about being a bit down in your money he’d follow you down stairs you know and shove you another fiver in your hand would young Bill. Oh aye I’d have worked for bill as long as he wanted, and in fact I could have done but I'd had enough when I'd done three year ower me time. It were still Albert then. He used to just pile it on and pile It on did Albert but Bill ‘ud have made a good boss because he were a bit carefree. We’d have kept things up to date an all because he were allus explaining to Edgar were Bill but it went nowhere. [This was after John had died and Edgar was running the job.] He’d more brains than Edgar had young Bill. But his health really pulled him back a bit from shoving his self forward too much.
Yes that's it.
R - Because he's allus had bad health has Bill. But I’ll never say nowt wrong about young Bill Wild because he were a good lad to all t’distance lads. He’d, any argument up stairs, he’d motion like this you know, and he’d follow you out, he’d tip you up. I've had an much as ten and fifteen quid off Bill.
There were some, they had some fair lads there at one time an all, one way and another didn't they.
R – They’ve had some of the best lads that ever 1 knew to work with an all. They have. Really speaking, because they were a real grand bunch to work wi’. You can’t say nowt wrong about any on ‘em. Well I couldn’t, because, odd times you get in places where you allus have a nark against one another don't you.
Aye.
R - But they all seemed to run and pull together there did the lads, especially on distance. No there were some reight good lads. Now Maurice [Nuttall] never run with us but he were a good man. Mind you, he were… a boss that geet Maurice, he’d have geet his monies worth.
Aye.
R- Because he were good and there were nothing about a motor he didn't know. He's loosened [got them out of trouble] people out on the road not only his own but others you know. Well known and admired on the road were Maurice, and although you didn’t care for him as a person many a time, because he used to lean to the bosses a bit, but if he heard anything, he hadn't heard it, you see what I mean.
Yes.
R- He’d lean to 'em happen if you'd had an argument, he’d take their part a bit, but if he heard you say anything about ‘em among yourselves, it didn't go to 'em.
Yes.
(20 min)
R - Like it does wi’ some on ‘em. Not wi’ Maurice, oh no, he’d never heard nowt, he’d never seen us. Same as some time when we should have been due back and we haven’t been, he hasn’t seen us you know and we’d been talking to him. Oh no he wouldn't have getten nobody in the shit as we used to call it. Not as you geet troubled a lot wi’ Wild's. It were a carefree place as long as you did your job, looked after your vehicle, you couldn't do nowt wrong.
(350)
And they were looked after there. They were looked after. They were.
Aye,
R- And if you did that you couldn't go wrong wi’ John or Bill. Now wi’ Edgar it doesn’t matter, they could have gone out rattling and thumping and bumping as long as they were earning money. There were that much difference between them two brothers, Edgar and John. Oh he were a gentleman were John to work for. And he had all AECs when he finished, he'd got all AECs. He’d got completely on them.
You did have a Seddon didn't you?
R- Aye but it didn't seem to last long. They didn't take to it a reight lot, no. He were an AEC man, he sent their Bill down to Southall you know. He did his time down at Southall while we were on distance did young Bill.
Aye.
R – He took him down there did John and geet him lodgings at Southall.
I’ll tell you who's selling out this week, I knew there was something I meant to tell you. Plant's at North Rhode.
R- Nay are they!
They're selling the lot.
R- Are they!
They're going out of business.
R- Get away!
That's a bloody good customer gone for ERF isn't it.
A - Aye, aye it is that, get away.
I just looked at it in the Motor Transport. I still get Motor Transport.
R- Do you, aye,
And I just looked and It says, there’s a half page advertisement, this firm has been given the job of selling out Plants at North Rhode, everything.
R- Aye, get away.
Wagons, cars garage, the lot, everything.
R- Aye.
I mean that's one of the firms...
R- Eh. You wouldn't have thought that would you.
I mean it's like Robson's at Carlisle selling out that isn’t it.
R- Aye. aye.
I mean they've been going as long as, well.
R- Aye they have haven't they. There's some firms, it's surprising how long they've lasted isn't it? Of course I mean, when you grow with the times they do last don’t they? But once you get so far behind you never catch up. Well Edgar were one of them. John went wi’t times. See, what I mean, he altered as times went on. If there were owt better come out, he were getting better and 1 think meself he’d have had a good fleet of coaches an all. Which he allus had some decent ones because they were as good as any on road once were Wild's coaches. Till they started deteriorating after his death and then, it's like I say again, they were never renewed. They were second hand ‘uns what he did get then after. And it was Bill that got them, like he kept pushing. Bill had the right idea but he hadn't the power, you know what I mean.
I know what you mean and as you say his health held him up a lot didn't it.
R- And his health held him back a lot.
I mean he's had terrible health that lad.
R- Oh he wouldn't bother about shoving ten quid into your hand wouldn't Bill.
Aye.
R - He might have been a partner but he were only a silent partner, he had to do a lot of things on the side I dare say had Bill else he wouldn't have been able to do what he did wi’ us would he. See what I mean.
Yes.
R - But owt you wanted he’d say call at Southall or if you weren’t going down there call at Tillotson’s you know.
Aye.
R - Oh aye, and he’d make arrangements an all for you to run in. They've come down to the meat market to us a time or two has Southall’s [The AEC headquarters was at Southall], we've managed to get there but if we wanted any replacements they'd come out to us.
(25 min)
Aye.
R- And they never refused coming out to John or Bill, no, because you can bet your life he allus treated them right you know. Aye we were allus, owt that happened on the road you hadn’t so long to wait before.. Touch wood we didn't have much happen because he kept ‘em in good pomp did John. It were a strict, it were the first thing that John thought about, keep 'em in order you know. Apart from blow outs, which anybody could have, I don’t think we ever ailed much on the road, I didn't anyway, and none of t’others.
How about t’other lads, blokes like Crabby, were they alright? [Frank Crabtree]
R- Oh well aye. He were rough were Frank, he were one of roughest that ever were but he were a good worker you know. He used to work hard so as he could work for himself a bit did Frank.
Yes!
R- And he did, he geet a bit, I know he did, he’d some good jobs on, on the quiet. I've known him do jobs in between, you know. If Frank had a stay-over he’d a job on somewhere, but it ‘ud have to be sommat a bit, that were reight deceptive to kid Frank on the road, he were no dummy, you know what I mean. He were do dummy. If he were stuck he were stuck. It were like just too far out of his reach if he were stuck. I've never known him have to call Southall in or anybody unless it were for like changing a pump [fuel injector pump, something that can’t be repaired on the road] or sommat of that sort. They'd come down on to the market and change you a pump if you were having trouble, fuel trouble. They'd come round you know.
Aye, and Carl were on for ‘em weren’t he. Carl Standrill.
R- Oh well, Carl! I can’t give Carl any stripes although he were a good mate to have with you.
He mated for you a lot didn't he Carl? He mated for you a fair bit Carl didn't he?
R- Aye, aye. You couldn't call Carl, no, he could get there and back as long as the vehicle ‘ud do it you know. But he were a good lad to work wi’, you know what I mean.
Aye.
R- But he didn't take no interest in the running part of things, if it were wrong, the telephone ‘ud do for Carl.
Aye.
R- And I mean Carl could have slept there a day and a half in t’cab while they come, he didn't bother, no. We used to have some laughs wi’ Carl when we wakened up in morning we used to have the best laugh at him when he come out ‘bout his glasses and he's there like…. [Carl had very bad eyesight even with his glasses on, in fact he wasn’t really fit to drive at the latter end] .. No they were a bunch of good lads really. Me and Gordon run together most though.
Gordon Westwell?
R - Aye.
Aye,
R- 'Cause he allus used to come up here and we’d set off together. Come up for me and set off together. We’d get two loads of Glasgow's together, and we’d get two London's back. We run like that many a time till John used to break us up a time or two you know. He used to say, I think I’d better part you two for a week. Aye.. He knew there were no dodging going on though. I mean we used to do us three trips you know. They were allus satisfied. I don't think we were on the mat once for not doing us share. What Gordon and me used to do, we used to set off, we’d bang down and get unloaded, that were one lump of us mind you know, and then we’d get into Verlin’s early and wait for a Glasgow load. I’ve seen us wait all day and if he's said day after, one load today and one the day after, one ‘ud loaden up and t’other ‘ud wait see. And then we’d ring John up and tell him we were both loading in the morning, which Verlin's allus made it as we were you know although one was loading. And then we’d go to Glasgow together. Well, that were our week, we were reight till Saturday dinner time then. But we used to have to like knock on a bit if it happened that one had to wait overnight once, you know.
Yes.
R- And then we used to get into the garage you know, for Saturday and then we were right then for Dagenham, Fords at Dagenham when we were on steel but we used to fetch all sorts. You never knew what you were going to carry till you were coming back you know, loads of scrap iron and all sorts.
And what do you make of the way the jobs changed Jack now, I mean looking back, I mean it's alright but..
R- Aye.
You know, I’m not talking about just the road, because I mean, things have changed on the road but all the way round. I mean like when you started off, Barlick was full of looms and weaving away and..
R- Eh, aye. that's [done now]
It's gone.
R- It's gone aye. I mean even before it went, even that doubled up, they'd started running eights and twelve’s.
Aye.
(30 min)
R- Hadn’t they. It’s all alley's really some of 'em with these automatic looms.
[What Jack means is that sheds aren’t crowded with weavers and looms now, even the ones that are still going. One weaver to 40 or 50 looms.]
Yes.
R- With these boxes on them. [computerised]
Yes.
R- Aye, it's funny to think that we're still in the same era as we were then. I think so, because there's been sound barriers broke and all sorts in our life time. There's a lot happened in our life time tha knows Stanley.
Yes.
R- I mean, when I started, twelve mile an hour, I mean look to-day, you'd get in the way of the bicycle's wouldn't you!
Yes.
R- You know what I mean. I once put my motor in bottom gear and I couldn't believe it you know, I put it in second gear on the flat on New Road and I did twelve miles an hour, I geet it up to twelve, I couldn’t believe it, 1 couldn't believe it meself.
Yes.
(551)
R - I thought no, it couldn't have been so slow.
No that were the speed. That's same wi’ me wi’ twenty, aye.
R- Narthen. I thought it's been that but I can’t remember doing it.
Yes.
R- But you see you could then, because it were the speed.
Yes.
R- But it seemed incredible when I did twelve mile an hour on that clock and it were there, and I though no, it can’t be, but it ruddy were.
That ‘ud be wi’t AEC would it like?
R- Aye.
Sommat like that aye, yes.
R- I just slipped it in gear and just let it roll.
Just did twelve, aye.
R- And I looked and then I looked again and I looked at the road and out and there were traffic coming, and I looked and I thought no, I must be mistaken but 1 weren’t mistaken because I know for a fact it were so, twelve mile an hour.
Aye,
R - And then I thought no, when a bicycle chap rides past you and says your tall light’s out and then he goes sailing on, there’s no mistakes. There weren’t such things as windows then, just a big do at side of your cab, you looked out there were nowt tha knows.
Yes.
R- That were at Sagars like.
And do you think things are better now?
R- No, no. In a way, well I mean, some things. I mean all t’money job and everything’s come better hasn't it. But if you wore working and then, no grumbles. I had a happy time even in them times. I mean you can’t go out now unless you've about thirty quid in your pocket for a night out can you. If you'd two half crowns then, you used to have friends. You could have friends galore! Hee hee! Two half crowns were half of what you earned nearly.
Aye, that’s it, aye.
R- I mean if, you'd two shillings in your pocket you were well away then weren’t you. If you'd two shillings in your pocket a chap could go out and have five pints if he wanted 'em couldn't he.
Aye.
R- How much does he need to-day? I don't know because I haven’t drunk for years.
(600)
Well I don't know, but if he’s drinking that lager, some of that lager’s about 50p. a pint isn't it?
R- That’s what I mean. He’d want a tenner before he geet anywhere wouldn’t he.
Aye.
R- Aye, I mean you used to get a box of matches and five Woodbines for what, twopence halfpenny.
Aye.
R- Twopence halfpenny!
Yes.
R- Same as I worked in the quarry and I looked after the gas engine and that down there before I started on wagons. No, no I'd a break in between, I give up and went on the gas engine and time keeping, what you call a bit of a charge hand you know, and I were there till I went to Steeton, isn't it funny.
Aye.
R- Aye I finished on wagons, yes, I went out happen just odd times. Aye, when Sidney finished, when Sydney Sagar finished, mill job, when that finished. [John and Sidney went into manufacturing at Bankfield in 1910] Yes, he came up there.
Aye that’s it, aye at Bankfield.
R- And they put a wood office down in the bottom and I got, I’d to go down there and I were same as like, well same as the man down there, call it foreman if you want. I were time keeper, ruddy engine driver. It were a gas engine then, Ashton-under-Lyne gas engine.
National Gas.
R- National Gas, aye. I used to have to blow th’old anthracite up you know. You used to have to leave early at morning and get gas up for seven o’clock to start the saws you know.
Yes.
R- Didn't take long to get gas up, about a quarter of an hour that were all. Just lift your fire up and you'd a little fan on that blew, you had a tap there to try your gas. And then a drop of petrol in the pump on the engine, pump it in for the first stroke you know, and then turn it. Your gas were on and away it used to go. It used to run two saws and the crusher and a bit of a compressor for the drill, the rock drill. But they geet a little Crossley oil engine for that and had it separate so as they could have it anytime the gas engine were off you know.
(650) (35 min)
Yes.
R- So as they wouldn't just have to run the gas engine for old Albert Roberts, the rock getter. Aye. Eh no, I've had an interesting life really, I've no grumbles of my life you know what I mean. I haven’t yet anyway. Tha knows I'm getting on a bit now, seventy four now tha knows. I didn't think I'd have reached that age, I used to think to me self I’ll die me be the time I'm forty, having to work like this. Hee hee!.
(Stanley laughs) I always used to say the same. I used to say forty three.
R - Well. Aye.
I used to say the same.
R- I’ll tell thee sommat Stanley, I mean tha understands it. You work night and day, we used to work night and day there, no two ways about it.
Yes.
R- And there’s no excusing us selves.
Aye.
R- Now you see, them to-day, ha! they'll do about, by time I’d getten to Monday night I'd done what they do now for a week.
Yes.
R- And then if they do an extra day now they'll say he’s knocking his self up him! He'll work night and day.
Aye.
R- And their night and day’s only from about eight o’clock at morning till four in th’afternoon. Hee hee!
That’s it aye, it's a long day for ‘em now.
R - Well, how the hell! Why are we all living then, and we used to have, how did we go on then.
Well I don’t know but....
R- It strikes me there's more illnesses coming to-day off bloody idleness than what there is off work. Well it could be t’cause. Boredom.
Aye,
R- Boredom.
Oh, I don't think we ever got time to get bored.
(700)
R- Dosta know there's more things to-day to enjoyment than what there ever were. But boredom today, it’s terrible, and them days you hadn't time to be bored. I never used to know what boredom were. Same as at weekend, all the lads up Tubber Hill, they never used to think about going boozing and that every night. We used to get up the moors you know, doing a bit of poaching or down in the canal swimming, jumping, running, you kept yourself fit. The sport in them days and the enjoyment were things that kept thee fit tha knows when tha were young, I allus think. Well I do up to leaving school. I do, and my ambition were when I geet old enough, I were going to make the army my career. There were a life service in the army, but it never materialised wi’ having that accident tha sees. That did it. And same as during the war I went twice but I were thrown out. Well I weren’t thrown out, I were Al all but for that, they said may be they could send me as an Instructor, you know, driving instructor, but they never did and I never bothered like, but I volunteered once and were sent up. I were called up once but I were grade three both times but that were through me left hand like, you know. You’d to be perfect hadn't you. Because a chap once threw it out at me as I thought I were alright because getting jobs same as at Wild's coaching there, you were exempt weren’t you. And John Wild get me out of Steeton tha knows to go on the coaches. And that's when he said like, you'll do owt bar go in th’army. I says look mate, I've been twice, I've been called up once and I volunteered when it started. I says hasta been? And he says “No”. I said “We’ll talk about that then!” tha knows. So I’d tried hadn’t I. When I'd been once voluntary and then geet me papers to go but I’d to go to Preston. It wore allus in me mind that I'd make a career of the army but it were happen as well I didn’t, I'd have been bloody shot because I’m that unlucky me at times. I'd have been shot, aye. But there’s allus big mouths isn't there Stanley.
Yes that’s so Jack. You are quite right.
(40 min)
R - Aye it were John Wild. I went to Steeton you know, I thought I’ll have some big money, mind you for two year I did, I get big money to what we used to have. From going to three pound, and same as in the quarry, that were good money what I were having then. Three pound six shillings because like wi’ being time-keeper, that added a bit extra you know. Others had about two pound fifteen or sixteen for a full week you know. Aye it like just bucked things up. But why I went to Steeton was I thought if I can get in there… and I telled Sydney Sagar I says "I'm going to try Steeton for a job.” Me and Arthur Fawcett went, not bookie, another Arthur Fawcett, and we geet on and us wages after a bit, after we’d been on these machines a week or two, we geet up to twelve pound. Well, going from here to twelve pounds, I mean it put us on us feet reight if you see what I mean.
(800)
R - That were the beginning of a better life for us really, I lived below then, on this row but just below, you know. Mona’s mother lived in here. So I stuck it for about two month and then it started getting at me then wi’ being closed in all the time because it were only a low place, Steeton Ordnance factory and wi’ allus being outside it bloody murdered me. I tried for two year before I geet out and then it were John Wild. I'd to go at front of a doctor, I made that much noise, at Colne. Stripped off and he examined me, he says “Well” Ooh I thought, lovely. He says “I'll tell you sommat”, he says “I wish I were half as fit as you are! Get back to thee work!” Hee hee! That’s reight, thee ask Mona! That’s all I geet, and then John Wild were asking me one day, he says “Why don't you come here” I says “How can I come here?” I says “I can’t get out” He says “Well I can get you out.” I says “What, even if the doctor can’t?” “Oh yes, for essential work you know, as long as you're coming into that.” And it were called essential work were them coaches you know. So I says “I’ll come and work for you then.” And me wage dropped to seven pound first week! I never give it a thought you know till I went. Eh aye, four pound drop straight away. I looked at it, I says how many days in this for? Oh good gracious I says. John says “Well, you'll be a long while afore we get to that price here!”, four pounds tha knows. We’d some hard work to do before we get to that price. If it hadn’t been for bits of fiddles, you could allus do a bit of fiddling on mill work, and I mean everybody fiddles. There's nowt I used to like better than a good fiddle, because them containers that come from Ireland, they never come correct, and they never come too low but you'd allus either one hind or two hinds too many.
Aye?
R - Now the first time it happened I took it up to the depot, we’d a depot at Peckham you know. And the foreman, he were a bit wild but he were a good sort were John. And I says “Hey John, I've getten two legs too many.” I called 'em legs, I weren’t used to these jobs then. He said “You mean two hinds. Well, what about ‘em?” “Well” I said “What have I to do wi’ ‘em?” “Well” he says “Can’t you sell ‘em?” I says “Course I can sell ‘em but I don’t know where.” He says “Look'” and he pointed, he says “Go to Bert’s” and he told me where it were and I went down and I went in. He says “Don’t go in as a stranger, just go in and say I've two hinds here Bert. So I went in and ordered a cup of tea and then when he come I said “I’ve two hinds in the box Bert. Do you want 'em?” He says “Yes bring ‘em in.” So I took ‘em in. He says “Carry ‘em in as though you’re delivering.” And it were t’best way were that.
(900)
R- Busy street in London, back doors, ruddy police cars going past. Me getting a hind out and carrying it in and then another, carrying it in. That's way to fiddle, not being, not looking round.
Mm, that's it, aye.
R- Hey, thirty quid. I thought bloody hell! So I went back up to the depot. I counted this money and was going to give some to John. “No” he says “I don't want it. I've me own side lines.” So like it were good on him weren’t it, whether he were thinking I were in tha knows….
(45 min)
R- But he says “They can’t do nowt about it. We can’t send 'em back to Ireland. We can’t go to the bother of that, you’re all right.” So anyway when I were hard up I used to be one short whether the bloody count were reight or not, because there used to just be a bit of wire through and twisted round. Well I think there were that many being short well they geet them there seals and tha like shoved it in a slot and then they stamped it see. {Jack is talking about a lead seal which was crimped over the wire and marked with an embossing tool] But Crabby even had one of them, I don't know where he’d getten it, a stamper an all tha knows. He made some brass wi’ that. He’d regular customers, it were him that used to tell us where to take 'em. He’d got the key to one butchers shop had Crabby. Aye he had that, in North London, because I were going down one night and I had two like, two or three and he said well wait a minute and I’ll give thee the key and put 'em in at Bert’s, I'll pay thee now see, he paid me and he said I'll ring Bert up and tell him. I opened this shop, went in and put them in. And if the police saw us, he says put the light on when tha goes in t’shop and then they'll know it's reight, that delivering. Aye, that's where we learnt it off Crabby, the cheekiest fiddler, but it's like he said don’t stand watching them or they’ll know that there's sommat bloody wrong, never watch ‘em, ignore ‘em. Aye we used to ignore ‘em and it paid off. Gerry Earnshaw, He’ll tell thee about a do, he will that. If Gerry were up here he’d start laughing. Aye, he once said to me “Can I go down with you?” “Aye” I said “Tha can go tonight, I've a midnight delivery on and then I’ve to go to, where is it, load at Birds Eye at Great Yarmouth after, in the morning you know when we were empty. So he says "Right". So at morning like I’ve these here two hinds tha knows to deliver first to Bert’s. No I'm wrong, I weren’t delivering ‘em at Bert’s, I were taking 'em out of London to Crabby's shop. That were it. I were thinking I were wrong there. And I'd these here two hinds wrapped up at front, tha knows, in between the container and the headboard wi’ a sheet ower, just thrown ower careless.
Yes.
R - No messing just careless, tha knows.
Aye.
R - And I'd these to call wi’ and Gerry's wi’ me and we geet down to this here shop, and we’d had about three pull backs. We’d set off, for a start London Bridge were up well that's th’only one that’s to wait for tha knows, not London Bridge, t’other, what the…
Tower.
R - Tower Bridge that's th’only bridge you've to wait for when that goes up isn't it.
Aye.
R- So we've to wait of bridge and I'm delivering this just out of London on us way to where I said, Bird’s Eye at Great Yarmouth. So anyway we get further down and every bloody thing held us up that morning. And I say's to Gerry, “Thank goodness for that” because I'd to be at Great Yarmouth at a certain time tha knows. So I says to Gerry, we're here but there's a hell of a crowd about isn’t there. Well the butchers shop were there, well here there were a bit of a pass do. you know, and the main road here and we used to go on this here bit, it were a bit of a lay-by on
(1040)
[The tape ended, sorry kids!]
SCG/27 December 2002
9,108 words.