THIS TAPE HAS BEEN RECORDED ON AUGUST 14TH 1979 AT 26 HARGREAVES DRIVE, RAWTENSTALL. THE INFORMANT IS JIM RILEY, MULE SPINNER AT SPRING VALE MILL. THE INTERVIEWER IS STANLEY GRAHAM.
Now then Jim, how old are you?
R- Forty eight.
So you were born in 1930 ... 1931?
R – August 1931.
Now, where were you born?
R- Loveclough.
Loveclough. That’s just up the road here, between here and Burnley.
R- Just that village between Burnley and here.
What was the street, what were the name of the street?
R- Broad Ing Terrace.
What were the name of it?
R- Broad Ing Terrace.
How do you spell that Jim?
R- Broading, B r o a d i n g. Broading Terrace.
Aye. Broading Terrace. That’s it aye. And how many years did you live in that house?
R- About four, four or five years.
And where did you move to then?
R- Just further up the road, on what they call Burnley Road, the next row.
Yes. What were the reasons for that move? Do you know?
R- Well, when we lived at Broading, we lived in what they had cellars underneath you see. Well, they were going to shut them down you see so they moved them out, and we moved farther up, on Burnley Road.
So they were going to demolish them?.
(50)
R- No, they were going to close the cellars down. They are still there actually, oh aye, those cellars.
Yes. And were you living in a cellar?
R- yes we were. We were born under them cellars you know.
So you were living in part of a house then were you?
R- Yes. Houses on top and these cellars were underneath, you see. And I were born under there. And then they come to close them down so then we moved up on to the row further up.
Yes. Tell me Jim, was that like these houses in Hebden Bridge, was it like one house on top of the other, and you went into one from the top of the hill side, and went into the other from the bottom?
R- That's right, yes.
And they decided they were substandard, did they?
R- Yes, so they moved us, we moved out.
And they were going to move you out? Well, how…
R- I were only small then, you know. I were only little, right little like.
(100)
Yes that’s it. So you moved out of them when you were. How long were you living in the other house on Burnley Road?
R - Oh ... nearly all the time I lived up there.
Which would be how long, Jim?
R - Well up to moving down here in 1966. I lived at that row all the time then.
Right, that's a good do. Right, well the questions that I'll ask you, I'll be asking you a lot of questions about the house then that you lived in when you were young. And I'll be talking about the house on Burnley Road. But before I do, tell me what you know about the houses on Broading Terrace, you know, the ones that were the cellar houses, what can you remember about them?
(100)
R- Not a right lot, n. ‘Cause I were only a little un you know…
No. That's it, yes. Now what do you know about them, because you'd see them again afterwards?
R- Well, you see, when I got married to the wife we went living in a house over the top of them cellars where I were born you see? And the house that we lived in up over the over the top, it were our underneath you see, and there’s the house. as I were born in. And there were only two rooms in it. Just a living room and a back room
For, it were a bedroom.
And the back room couldn't have any windows.
R - No. A bit of a grating.
That*s it, a grate that came up from the front of ...
R- On to the front of the landing, on to the front of the landing.
That's it, just the same as those at Hebden Bridge. Yes, that's it aye.
R- Just the same, yes. And they were very, very dark. And at the front door, what were the front door, were a big, high wall you know, and there were just one window and it were very dark. And they had gas in you know.
(5 min)
So moving up to Burnley Road, it'd be a big improvement for you.
R- Oh yes. Yes well there were electric in.
Yes, well, I'll be asking you some questions about houses, like. I'll ask you about Burnley Road. Now then have you any idea where your father was born.
R- Eh I don’t.
No. What was your father's name. Jim?
R- William Riley.
William Riley. Where was your mother born.
R- She was born in Padiham, me mother.
In Padiham yes, what was her name.
R- but she isn’t living now, me mother.
Yes. What was…
R- She were called Cook, Bertha Cook she were called before she were married.
Bertha Cook yes. And how many brothers and sisters did you have?
R - I had one sister. She died in 1960. 71. (Mother I think] Our Marion, she died of fits, she had epileptic fits. And I have a brother 18 months younger than me, he’s living now. He is living with me father.
(150)
Yes. Were they the only children that was, that were born? What I'm getting at, did your mother just have three confinements and she had three children?
R - No she lost two.
She lost two. Yes.
R- She lost two yes.
At birth?
R - Yes.
Have you any idea what that were with, Jim?
R- I've no idea.
No. That was very common of course wasn't it? And where did you come in the family?
R- Third. She lost two and then .. oh no, sorry, I come fourth, she lost two then our Marion were born and then me and then our Jack.
Yes, that's it aye. Can you remember what your father, do you know what your father’s job was.
R - Yes, he worked at C.P.A. Calico Printers Association, at C.P.A. that's down at the bottom of the hill.
Yes, at Loveclough here, yes.
R- He was .. he worked in the colour shop, he were a colour mixer, mixing colour. He had a good job there yes.
Mixing colour .. aye, it's a responsible job that. Skilled job and all.
R- Yes, he did, he did it for years. Yes
And what did your mother do? Did she work at a1l?
R- She didn't work didn't me mother no. Not when, all the time I were about.
Have any idea if she had worked before she was married?
R - I think she were a weaver before she were married.
Yes. And that’d be at Padiham?
R - Padiham, yes.
Have you any idea how your mother came to meet your father? Did you ever hear her say anything?
R- No.
Can you remember any relatives living with you when you were a child?
R- No.
Any lodgers?
R- No.
How old, was your dad when he died?
R- How old was me dad when?
He died.
R- Me dad’s still living.
Oh is your father still living? Sorry Jim.
R- yes, I said me mother died but my father’s still living.
(200)
He’’ be a fair age then.
R- He’s 76.
Seventy six. Aye.
R- He is living with me brother
Yes, that’s it.
R- But he is not married, so he's living with me dad yes.
And how old was your mother when she died.
R – Fifty eight.
Did any of the family leave the area when they grew up, or did they all stay in the area?
R - No, they all stayed in the area.
All stayed in the area. Aye. Now, well we'll talk a bit about the house Jim. And now we are talking about that house in Burnley Road ...
R - Burnley Road, yes.
Because obviously a four year old, he won't be able to remember much about the other.
R – No, I didn't remember a right lot of that one now.
How many bedrooms did that house have?
R- Two.
And what other rooms were there?
R- Well, there were two bedrooms, a living room, a front room, and a little kitchen.
Now, what sort of furniture, can you remember any of the furniture at all, in any of the rooms?
R- Just, like, a three piece suite, there were one of the old fashioned big wardrobes, with a big mirror in.
Aye, in the bedroom?
R- Which were, which were common them days you know? And a dining room suite and that's all, more or less.
What did you use the front room for?
R- For guests really, you know. For people what visited.
High days and holidays?
R- Yes.
Aye. You'd be in trouble if you went in there during the week wouldn’t you?
R - Oh yes. That were kept clean were that so you hadn’t to go in there.
Yes. I thought it happened so. Aye. Which room did you have your meals in, Jim?
R- We had them in the kitchen, in the house.
Yes. That's, when you say in the kitchen, that's not in the little kitchen, that’s in the living room is it? Or do you mean in the kitchen?
R- Well in the kitchen just weren't big enough for us all to sit in so we probably had them in the living roomy you know? Yes.
Yes, that's it. Aye. And where did your mother do the cooking? In the little room at the back?
R – Yes in the kitchen yes.
(10 min)(250)
Yes that's it. Where did she do the washing?
R- In the cellar underneath. They had a sty they had cellars underneath.
Aye. And did it have a bathroom?
R- No. They had the old tin bath
Hung outside the door?
R - That were in the cellar were the big tin bath, and we used to fetch it up and put it in front of the fire and fill it up you know with the hot water.
Aye. When were that Jim? When did you get a bath?
R- Once or twice a week . Well, used to he Friday more or less. You know, a big day.
That’s it. Everybody had a bath on Friday I think, everybody I've recorded except one, used to have a bath on Friday. Was it an inside lavatory?
R- No, outside.
It was outside. Was it flushed, tippler, or dry?
R- Tippler.
Tippler. Yes. Did you have piped water in the house?
R- Yes.
Did you have hot and cold, or just cold?
R- No, just cold.
Just cold. What did you do for hot water?
R- We used to boil pans, and the kettle.
Did your mother ever have a side boiler?
R- Yes. One of them big boilers you know. She used to boil it up with the gas pipe. We used to have a big boiler, with a pipe from, what led to the gas.
Aye. One of them Burcos with the gas underneath, galvanised round thing with three legs.
R- Yes. She used to have one of them yes.
On four legs? Four legs they had.
R- Aye, big uns they were.
And she’d use that for, like, warming the water for a bath?
R – Yes. And boiling all her clothes up and all.
That's it, aye. So there'd be no water upstairs, just downstairs.
R- No, just downstairs.
And in the cellar, were there?
R- In the cellar, yes.
Now did your mother warm the water for the washing? Was that warmed in the gas boiler and all?
R- She used to warm it, what do you mean? For washing up?
For.. No, for washing clothes.
R- Oh for washing, she used to use that boiler, yes.
Yes. Did you have a stairs carpet?
R- No. Stair mats, she used to put little mats. Square mats were put up the stairs.
Were they wooden or stone?
R - They were stone.
Stone. Aye. Stone steps.
(300)
R= Yes.
Were the neighbours the same? You know?
R- Yes. The majority had them, they were the same, just odd uns would have some carpet you know. What were a bit better off than we were.
That's it. What kind of curtains did you have? Blinds, curtains, what did you have?
R - Well we had curtains up yes. But when the war were on we used to have black out blinds. The black uns what we used to put up you know?
That's it. Yes.
R - But we did have curtains, you know?
Yes, black out. Can you remember any families in the street not having curtains?
R- No.
No. Did they used to donkeystone the door steps in the street?
R - Oh yes, door steps and window bottoms yes.
Aye. How about the kerb edge?
R -- Yes.
Kerb edge and all? And round t' coal hole.
R – Just odd uns used to do the kerb edge, but not everybody.
Aye. There were nobody black leaded tram lines were there?
R- No. We used to blacklead the fireplace.
Aye, that's it aye.
R- We had a big fireplace with the big door on and me mother used to
blacklead that and all, aye.
That's it. Aye. Like she'd bake in there, wouldn't she? Aye.
R- She baked in the oven. Yes, we used to shove coal, fire under the oven aye.
That's it, under the oven. Did you have one of them porcelain enamel trays in the hearth that looked like tiles? Or was it a stone hearth?
R- It were a stone hearth. Yes.
Aye. If you remember they got round later to having them porcelain enamel things in the hearth didn't they, that looked like white tiles.
R- Yes, that's right, yes they did.
Was there a big fender?
R- Yes there was.
Aye. How was the house lit Jim?
R – Well, that was lit by electricity when we, like when we moved. But I think there were gas in there. I don't think we used to, their were gas in upstairs, come out of the walls in the bedrooms you know? But we didn't use gas.
Yes. So that were the first time your family had electric light, when they moved into Burnley Road.
R- Yes.
Before that, they were on gas. Aye. How did you get rid of the household rubbish?
(350)(15 min)
R- Oh we used to throw it, put it in the dustbin or burn a lot of it you know? Or take it to the tip. take it to the tip in a wheelbarrow, in a truck.
Was it a dust bin or was it an ash pit?
R - We had, we had a dust bin, but there were ash pits outside as well. you know?
Yes. Were they still using ash pits'?
R- Oh yes. Anyway you can burn a lot of stuff in your ash pits as well, you know. And they were across the road were us ash middens, we’d to walk across the road to tip them in you know. There were some out t'back but ours were across the road.
Yes. How often did they clean them out Jim?
R - Once a week.
Once a week? Ash middens and all?
R - Yes. And us toilets, some were across the road. You'd to go up two steps and to the toilet across t’road and all.
Yes, so some of them would have been dry toilets would they?
R- Yes they were.
Aye, were they still coming round to empty them? Buckets?
R- Used to come in, yes with, with a tin in the back, yes.
Aye and powder? Sprinkle powder in aye. How often did your mother do the washing?
R- Well she used to wash a lot did me mother, when we were young you know. A few times a week but she really had a good wash on Saturday, a really good washing day were Saturday, you know.
Saturday. Aye, now that's, that's an uncommon day really for washing in't it? You know it used to be Monday. How long did it take her to, when she did a big wash how long did it take her?
R- Oh a couple of hours with all the washing she had to do. Yes, it took her a fair bit.
How did she dry it?
R- Well either hang them outside, or on the old clothes line in the front room you know.
Clothes rack that you pulled up on pulleys?
R- Clothes rack what you pulled up on pulleys, yes,
Yes. How did she iron? What sort of iron did she have?
R- She had one of them gas irons, what you, you lit inside.
Aye that's it, aye with a gas pipe to it, aye.
R- With a gas pipe aye. Yes.
What can you remember most clearly about washing day?
R- I don't know, all the clothes hanging from off the clothes lines and having to bob down and walk up and down with ‘em all dripping and what have you. That's most as 1 can remember like.
Had she a big mangle?
R - Oh yes, one of them. She’d take us two lads to move it.
Who twined that?
R- Well, me dad used to do a lot of that for her, yes, mangle for her. It were right heavy were that mangle, it were right biggun. And we used to get two hands on to it, it took me all me time to move it round, it were a big thing. Aye.
Yes. How did your mother clean the house? When she set to, to clean the house up, how did she do it exactly! You know, what did she use to do it?
R- What, in what way do you mean?
Well I mean, nowadays there's all these spray things that you put on furniture and God knows what but in those days there weren’t so ...
R- Oh aye. Oh yes well she probably did like they do today. She'd ...well, we had coconut matting down you see, that were very dusty and she started, she used to have to clean that first, then the dust settled and then she'd start, she’d then go round with the duster you see then. And then polish.
Yes. How did she clean the matting.
R- Well, she used to brush it. But sometimes she used to take it outside and beat it, you know how it were. Oh terrible dusty.
Yes. That's it. Aye.
R- And then, when she'd took it outside I used to help and sweep up for her you know, sweep all the dust and what have you because it left a lot of dust did coconut matting.
Did you do a fair number of jobs round the house?
R- I did a lot of jobs round the house, I used to help me mother a lot. Mop and all, and do all sorts aye.
Yes. Was there anything when she was cleaning up, that she used to take particular care of? You know, that she used to really think something about?
R- Well. She used to do her own ornaments and that, she wouldn't let us go and do all the glassware and things like that. She used to do them all herself then, so as you wouldn’t break them you know? Them were the special things for her.
What were them, like wedding presents and family heirlooms and what not?
R- Yes, and brass things.
Did the older children help the younger ones? You know, with dressing and eating, or anything like that or did your mother used to look after the children?
R- My mother used to look after the children,.
Did your father do any work round the house?
(450)(20 min)
R- Not a right lot, no.
If he did anything round the house what would he be likely to do?
R- Well he did like all the odd jobs you know, like what wanted doing. Like do it yourself things in the house you know, what wanted mending, anything. But he wouldn’t do housework, like mopping up and things like that. But he, anything what broke or anything, he’d mend it you know and things like that.
Aye. That house in Burnley Road, did the family own it?
R- No.
So they rented it did they?
R- Oh it were rented yes.
Have you any idea how much rent they paid?
R- I think it were five shilling a week.
Who were the landlord?
R- Do you know I don't know who the landlord were in that house.
Did you ever hear your parents talking about the landlord? Whether he were a good landlord or a bad one or what?
R- I think the landlord what owned them houses, I think she lived at Blackpool. I think she were called Miss Bailey and she lived at Blackpool but they never did a right lot to their houses. She were a. poor landlady. Yes.
Yes. Did you ever see her?
R- No.
Who collected the rent?
R- They had a rent collector what collected the rent but we never see Miss Bailey who owned them no.
Did your mother ever do any work in the house to earn a bit of extra money you know, like washing or sewing?
R- She used to baby-sit a lot. Look after children for other people what went to work.
Aye, she child minded. That’s it.
R- She did a lot of that. Yes, she did a lot of that.
How much did she charge 'em, can you remember?
R- Do you know I don't know, about ten shilling or five shillings, I don’t know exactly. Somewhere about that. She used to have, sometimes she used to have two in the house, you know that she looked after.
Yes. And she'd look after them children while the mother were at work. That’s it.
R- All day yes.
And did anybody else in the neighbourhood do anything like that?
R- I think they nearly all looked after children round that area you know.
Aye, the women who were at home?
R- Yes. But a lot went to work you know.
Is that house in Burnley Road still standing?
R- No, it's been pulled down now.
Aye that’s been pulled down and the other one that…
R - That what?
The cellar house, is it still up.
R - Yes, Broad Ing’s still up yes. But that what we lived in, what I were telling you about, now there was a Club, Working Men’s Club in Middle Row and it's still there now.
(500)
And they’ve, there's a house at either side to keep it safe like and they're building a new club round there, over the back in the meadow at the back.
Aye, that's where them right big stones are in the wall, in the chimney breast.
R - Yes, well that’s what we are talking about now, we are members.
Which house was yours? Right from t'club?
R- Eleven … twelve it was. It were the third from the club.
This way?
R- Going towards Burnley.
Oh, the other side then. So like it’d be the second one from the end that’s been knocked down now. Aye.
R- One, two, three, yes, second from the club.
Now then, your mother cooking. She cooked on the range? You’ve already told me haven’t you.
R- Yes, gas aye.
Can you remember .. what, she had a gas stove did she? Yes. When did she first have a gas stove, can you remember?
R- Eh, I don't know.
Aye. Do you know if she had one at the other house?
R- No I can't remember that at all. I know she had one all the time as I know when we lived in the other one at Loveclough.
Yes that's all right Jim. Did she make her own bread?
R- Yes she did, yes she used to…
Aye. How much did she make at one time?
R - I don’t know, about happen a dozen loaves I think. I'm not right sure, sommat like that. She used to bake once a weeks you know.
Aye so she'd bake a stone of flour then, wouldn't she?
R – Yes. Well, it'd last all week you know.
Aye. Did she bake cakes?
R- Yes I think she did, she did make ...
What sort?
R - I don't know, I’ve no idea what sort of cakes they were. Just ordinary cakes you know, and …
It's right, it's right. Did she make jam?
R- Oh yes, them round things what had jam on top, she used to make them.
Oh aye, them. Did she make jam or marmalade, did she boil ...
R- Oh no. She never made jam or marmalade, no.
Pickles?
Homemade wine, beer?
Did she make any of her own medicines?
R- No not as I know off.
What did you usually have for breakfast?
R - Jam butties. Yes, we used to have jam butties a lot.
And how about Sunday dinner?
R- Potato pie. She used to make her own potato pies and what they call pea pies. She made them with peas and a crust on. Meat and potato pies.
(550)(25 min)
What would you usually have for your dinners during the week?
R- Oh, she used to buy meat and that at odd times you know. It'd be sometimes a bit of chicken and things like that.
Aye. Did you have any supper before you went to bed?
R- Just some biscuits. That's all. But jam and bread. We were brought up on jam butties. Yes.
Aye. Well, here you are. Did the family have a garden or an allotment?
R- No they didn't have anything didn't them houses.
Did they have any land anywhere about where they could keep a few hens or anything like that?
R- There were that land at the back what they're building the club on now. That were, what do you call it, you could build on there you know, you could put a coit on. There were coits on, hen coits ... [cotes] And people had hens in and a bit of an allotment, but there were some allotments farther down the road what people had.
But you didn't have one.
R- But we didn't have one of them, no we didn't have any allotments.
No. Did you have pudding every day?
R - No. No we didn't.
How much milk do you think the family'd have each day?
R- About four or five pints a day, we used to drink a lot of milk.
Was it delivered once or twice?
R- Twice I think. I think once at morning and after dinner.
Aye. Farm milk were it? Kitted?
R- Yes, it were farm milk.
Yes. What would you use it for mostly?
R- Well, me mother used to make rice puddings a lot with the milk and then we used to drink it and all you know?
Aye. How about butter, did you use butter?
R- Margarine.
Yes. How about dripping?
R- Yes, we used to eat a lot of dripping, get it from the butcher’s.
Aye. That's it.
R- For dripping butties.
How about fruit, what fruit did you eat most often?
R- Well we used to have, we used to eat apples and bananas and things like that. Apples, bananas and oranges.
What vegetables?
R – Cabbage and lettuce.
I’ll just shout some foods out here, different foods out here, and you tell me how often you had them, you know, or if you didn't have them at all. Bananas, you've already mentioned them. Yes. How often about?
R- Oh two or three times a week, bananas.
Rabbit.
R- Once.
Fried food, you know fried stuff?
R- Yes, I know what you mean. Perhaps twice a week.
Fish?
R - Once.
What sort of fish did you have?
R- Fillets it were, not plaice.
Aye. When did you usually have that?
R- I think she got that at Friday I think. I'm not right sure.
Aye, Friday were a fish day, weren't it?
R - Yes I think it were Friday when she got it.
Cheese?
R- Once or twice, cheese, yes twice a week cheese.
Cowheels?
R- Well she used to get cowheel happen once a week but I never eat cowheel, I didn't like it.
Tripe?
R- Oh tripe yes, about three or four times a week tripe, we had tripe.
Trotters?
R- No, I never had trotters, I didn't like them.
Black pudding?
R- No.
Eggs?
R- Oh yes. I used to eat plenty of eggs, nearly every day I eat eggs.
Where did they come from?
R- From the farm. From the farm at the bottom in the, down at the bottom of…
Yes. Tomatoes?
R- About twice a week tomatoes I should think?
How about grapefruit?
R- No, I weren't a lover of grapefruit, none of us liked grapefruits.
Were they about? Can you remember seeing them about?
R- Do you know I can’t. I don’t know whether they were about or not. I can’t remember grapefruit. Of all the fruits, like oranges and things like that and grapefruits no.
Aye, it’s funny that. How about sheep’s head?
R- Oh no.
You laugh when I say that. Why? Generally what they buy for the dog isn’t it. There are a lot of people lived on sheep’s head weren’t there. Can you remember having much tinned stuff?
R- A lot of tinned stuff, there were a lot in them days of tinned stuff. There weren't a right lot of fresh things in them days, nearly all in tins you know.
What kind of tinned stuff, anything?
R- Well, what they have today, a lot. Like tins of fruit and what have you tore there were. And tins of like soup weren’t there, we used to have tins of soup.
Can you ever remember having a bad tin of fruit or food, do you know?
R- Well I can't. No, I don’t know that me mother mentioned it at all.
How about tea? Did you drink a lot of tea?
R- Yes, mostly tea.
Cocoa?
R- We had cocoa. I didn’t care much for cocoa. We used to have it, I used to have Ovaltine. Yes.
(30 min)(650)
Ovaltine, yes. How about coffee?
R- No, I'm I’m not a lover of coffee, although I drink a lot, or quite a bit of it now, but didn’t then.
What did you have for Christmas dinner?
R- I think it were like chicken. I don’t know if we ever had turkey, happen once you know, just an odd time.
What was your favourite food when you were a child, can you remember?
R- Oh I had a steak and pudding.
Is that right?
R- Made in a rag. Eh it were good were that, she used to make a lot of that, it were lovely. That were my favourite, were that. Gorgeous it were.
What did you have to eat if, you know, if it had been a bad week and the family were a bit hard up?
R- What did we have to eat? What, a bit of jam, or a bit of dripping. Jam and dripping on bread.
Did your dad come home for all his meals?
R - Yes he did, dinner and tea. Because he only lived, he only worked at the bottom, you see, at the bottom of the brew, yes. [Brew = dialect for brow or steep road]
Did he always have the same food as the rest of the family or did he sometimes have something different?
R- He had the same as we all had.
Can you ever remember your mother going short of food to feed the rest of you?
R - Oh yes, many a time.
Many a time?
R- Never had a meal sometimes. Just leave her meal for us to eat, to give it to us. Oh yes, a few times..
When things were a bit rough?
R- They were rough, and they were rougher when the war started and all you know when everything were rationed. When rations came in.
Yes. We’ll get on to that Jim. You see that's the reason for these questions. To build a picture up, you know you start to get a picture. Who usually did the shopping?
R- Well, me mother did, or sometimes I used to go up to the shop you know, because the shop were only at the end of the row.
Aye.
R- What they called Noel's shop what's pulled down now.
Noel's?
R- It were called Noel Sutcliffe’s shop. Noel Sutcliffe he were called and it was just at the end of the row you see and we did our shopping there.
Yes. Was all the shopping done there just about?
R- Yes.
Aye. Did she ever go down to Rawtenstall to the market or owt like that?
R- No, not as…
Were trams running on that road then?
R- Do you know I can't remember trams. There were trams, there were tram lines were on, but I don’t know that I can remember trams or not. I don’t know whether they give up running or not when I were a little un. But the tram lines were there but I think there were buses when I can remember, but they've only just given over running.
So you'd never shop at the Co-op?
(700)
R- No.
Did the shop at the end of the row give credit?
14 - Yea.
Did your mother have credit?
R - Yes. They had what they called a book you know.
That's it. I were going to ask you that Jim, yes, is that how they worked it, with a shop book?
R- Yes, he used to write it down in the book and then when me father fetched his wage home she used to go and pay.
Go and pay up.
R- Or sometimes if she couldn't afford it she’d to pay so much off it and leave some on for next week. A lot of them did that them days, you know, it were a regular thing. Yes.
Oh yes. A tremendous number Jim, it was very common. Can you ever remember anything about pawnshops, were there any pawnshops about?
R- Not up there at Loveclough, no they were in Rawtenstall were the pawnshops.
Were they patronised do you know, did people used to use them?
R- Oh yes, I believe so, yes.
Well, yes, you say you believe so. Like, have you ever seen anybody taking something there?
R- No, I haven't actually no.
What was the general attitude towards pawnshops? Were they regarded as a good thing or a bad thing.
R- I don't know, some people said they were all right you know. Where they can take stuff to get money for them but me mother didn't agree with them didn’t me mother and a lot didn’t.
(35 min)
If say your mother had seen somebody going down the road with father’s Sunday best suit and the best Sunday frock, to go and pawn them. What would her view have been? Would she have been a bit scathing about it, or would she have thought that it was a good thing that they could go and do that? You know, what would your mother’s attitude have been.
R- Oh, my mother, I don't think my mother would have thought a lot about it you know. She'd have probably thought she's a bit brazen going selling stuff like, you know?
Aye. Yes, a lot of pawnshops used to have a back door that you could go into instead of going in through the front, didn't they?
R - Yes, they probably did.
Is there anything that you can remember eating when you were young that it's no longer possible to get. Can you think of anything?
R - Eh no, I can’t.
How much housekeeping do you think your mother’d have then, any idea?
R- I don't know. About eight pounds or nine? Something like that but I don't know for sure. There weren't a right lot of it you know.
How much do you think your dad was earning?
R- I don't know. I haven't a clue. I never knew what me dad were earning.
No. Now then, the second world war, of courses there were rationing.
(750)
R- Oh yes, rationing books yes.
Now then. Were food short?
R- Yes. It were short.
Can you remember queuing?
R- Yes with ration books, yes I did. I remember queuing.
How about the black market. Did you ever get anything you know, like, from the farm?
R- Me dad used to get different things you know, a bit of butter, a bit of sugar. But like we never knew how he’d got it but he used to bring it home.
That's it, aye. Good lad, good job somebody did.
R- Yes, he looked after us all like that.
[At this distance in time it might surprise readers that I seem to like the idea of the black market. Speaking as one who benefited from it, we had a fairly pragmatic view towards it. Extra rations were very welcome and we knew that people who could afford to eat in restaurants had no problem about supplementing their diet. It seemed to that what was sauce for the goose was sauce for the gander.]
Yes. Would you say you were better fed or worse fed during the war than you were before?
R- No, I think we were about the same you know. I don’t think we were really worse off, even though there were rationing. We seemed to get through all right you know, we weren’t short of anything, you know.
Which were the things you missed most with the rationing?
R- I think it were like going to the butcher's and buying meat and that. You were just restricted to so much meat you see at the butchers.
Yes. How were the rabbit job?
R- Happen an odd time a rabbit but .. all the best meat and that, it were out you know.
Yes. Right, clothes Jim. Did your mother make any of the family's clothes?
R- No. She never made any at all.
Did she have a sewing machine?
R- Oh yes. She used to do a lot of sewing like but she never made any clothes.
Did she mend your clothes?
R- Oh yes.
Darn socks?
R- Darn socks and put patches on our pants.
Did she use a mushroom or her fist?
R- Her fist, yes.
Did you ever have any passed on clothes?
R- Yes, a lot of them. We got off all the different people you know. Shoes that were a bit too big for us and things like that.
If you had any clothes bought, where were they bought from?
(40 min)
R- They were bought from a salesman what came round, like a club.
Aye. What were that? Provident?
R- That were… They were a firm from Burnley. Reynard’s they were called, at Burnley, Reynard’s. She used to pay them so much a week for clothes off them..
She’d pay so much a week, yes. What did they call that fellow, had they a name for him?
R- What came round?
Yes.
R- Well you know. I never knew his name. Well I did but I forget you know, I can’t remember.
No. But some people used to talk about, like the Scotchman coming round you know. Provident man or Tally man.
(800)
R- I can’t remember but I can picture him now you know, coming. And we all used to say that Reynard’s is coming you know. And he used to come in then. But we were nearly always out playing, very rare we stopped in, you know?
What happened to your old clothes?
R- I think me mother used to give them away to other people you know, what needed them.
What did you wear for school?
R- Short pants and stockings, boots, or clogs actually. And a little coat, well a little blazer, and a little cap.
Aye. Was there a clogger at Loveclough?
R- Yes there were a clogger in the row.
What was his name?
R- Foster he were called, yes. And he used to make all his own clogs, and then he’d iron us clogs.
What did your father wear for work?
R- He used to have a boiler suit, and he had boots what he had when he were in the Home Guard. He were in the Home Guard and he had boots what he went to work in.
Home Guard boots.
R - Home Guard boots, yes.
Good man. What did your mother wear when she went shopping?
R- Just an ordinary pair of shoes, low flat heeled shoes.
How about clothes? What sort of clothes did she wear?
R- Well, them right long ones, down to her ankles, like flowered, like a skirt. Sometimes she had a frock, a shawl, she used to have a shawl.
Yes, but fairly long skirts.
R- Yes, right down to her ankles yes.
Aye? There’d be plenty going about with them shorter than that then, wouldn't there?
R- Yes. But she did have them shorter ones later on but I remember her having the long ones.
That's interesting aye. Did your dad ever mend your clogs?
R- He used to iron them yes. He used to go and buy irons from the cloggers and he used to iron, clog 'em himself.
How many outfits of clothes did you have at any one time?
R- We just had the clothes what we wore through the week to school, what we used to go to school in and then we had some old ones what we changed into at night when we came home to go and play out and then we had a best for Sunday. Always had a suit for Sunday. We used to always have to keep that [special]
How often did you have clean clothes?
R- Do you mean a change of underclothes?
How often changing clothes yes, that's it.
R- Oh we used to change ‘em every week like. But we didn't wear underpants or anything like that in them days.
That's it yes. When you were first…
R- No vest. No, we had no vest, no underpants.
Were your trousers lined?
(850)
They weren't lined.
R- No.
When's the first time you can remember wearing underpants Jim?
R- When 1 started work when I were 14. Yes when I started work at first, that's when we started wearing them and a vest, but up then we never wore them.
Good. And your mother was in a savings club, she was in Reynard’s.
R- Yes. She were in Reynard’s aye.
What sort of change did you see in the sort of clothes that were being worn during the war? Like, were clothes that people were wearing, the ones after the second world war as they were before, or did you see any change in the sort of clothes that people wore?
R- Oh there were a change yes. Like same as you said about women with their frocks a bit shorter. I don't know, I think that fellers pants, all the pants and that were all turn-ups. But I don’t know about suits, whether they changed or not, we hadn’t a suit.
How about colours?
R- No, I can’t say I took much notice of them really.
Yes. That’s all right Jim. We’ll end this tape here and put another on, we’re nearly off.
SCG/07 July 2003
7,384 words.