THIS TAPE HAS BEEN RECORDED ON AUGUST 14TH 1979 AT 26 HARGREAVES DRIVE, RAWTENSTALL. THE INFORMANT IS JIM RILEY, MULE SPINNER AT SPRING VALE MILL. THE INTERVIEWER IS STANLEY GRAHAM.
Did everyone sit down for their meals together?
R- Odd times yes, 1 mean, like we used to have ours when we came home from school.
Aye, and your dad’s would be later?
R- And me dad used to work while half past five, and we used to come home at about quarter to four, four o'clock and we used to have our tea and out. And me dad come home at half past five, and then he'd sit down to tea with me mother then you see.
(50)
Did, when you were all sat down together, like say Saturdays or Sundays or holidays, anything like that, did your parents have any rules about how you behaved at the table? Were they strict with you at all?
R- No, not right strict but we, you know, we hadn't to act the goat or anything. We hadn't to do a lot of laughing, we had to get on with us meal and that were it you know.
What were they strict about, you know like times for coming in or swearing or being cheeky or owt like that?
R- Oh they weren't right bothered about times for meals. Like we used to come in when we had been playing out, but we never swore in the house, never. Even today, in front of me own father I never swear at him. No, never have done. We'd one rule we never did, we never swore.
Yes. If you did do something that were wrong how did you get punished?
R- Me dad used to get his belt and he used to belt us with his belt.
Aye. Did that happen often?
R- Yes quite a bit. And it…
When you say quite a bit, you know, how often?
R- Well, I don't mean every day, but twice or three times a week. If we weren't behaving ourselves he used to take his belt off and he’d hit us with the buckle.
With the buckle end?
R- With the buckle end, it were really, it were bad.
Looking back, what do you think about it now? Do you think he was a bit hard an you?
R- Well, no personally I don’t. It were a bit harsh at the time when we were younger but do you know it were a good thing really. It learnt us you know. We suffered a bit like with the buckle end but I think it did us good you know?
Were you the same with your son?
R - No, different altogether with our Ian, our Ian and Sheila.
Yes. Now why? If it were good for you why is it not good for them?
R- I don’t know. It’s a different upbringing today to what it were in them days.
Aye. But you never felt any animosity towards your father because of the fact that he was strict with you?
R – No. I didn’t bear any grudge at all you know.
That's interesting Jim. No grudge?
R – No. None at all.
That's interesting when you think about it and yet you wouldn’t bring your children up that way.
(5 min)
R - No. I've said to ours many a time, “My dad used to hit me with the buckle end of his belt when we did anything wrong and all as what I’m doing to you two is shout at you.” You know or else raise me hand you know. But never hit them you know. But we used to got the belt, oh yes. It hurt aye.
(150)
Lass and all?
R – Oh yes.
What did your mother think about that?
R- Oh she were, she didn't like it you know but he were the boss were me dad, he were the boss in the house. What he said went.
No messing about?
R- No.
A bit more about that later Jim. I think that's interesting. Did anybody ever say grace before meals?
R – No.
Ever have any prayers at home?
R – No.
Going to bed?
R - When we were younger we did yes.
If you had a birthday was it different from any other day? Did you ever get birthday presents?
R- No.
How did you spend Christmas, New Year, you know?
R- Oh we had a good time at Christmas. We used to get, me dad used to do… well, he’d put a big pillow at the bottom of the bed. We’d get apples, oranges and some games, and we had a good time at Christmas.
All right. How about Easter? Was Easter a big holiday?
R- No, not really, we had all Easter holiday at schools, you know but we weren't anything exceptional.
Did you ever have pace eggs, anything like that at Easter?
R- No.
Were there any musical instruments in the house?
(200)
R- We had a piano accordion but nobody could play it.
Aye. How come you had a piano accordion?
R - Do you know I don't know. We found it one day, me and our Jack, when we were rooting upstairs in the long drawers and we pulled it out and at the bottom the piano accordion were in. And we used to be playing it you know, in and out with it and making all sorts of noises but nobody could play it. I don't know how it come to be there.
Aye. That's interesting..
R- And I never knew whose it were.
Did any of you sing?
R- Me dad used to sing. A good singer were me dad.
Where did he sing?
R- He used to sing in the clubs, he used to sing in t'club on the row you know. He were a good singer when he were younger.
Did he sing at home?
R- Yes he did. He used to sing a lot knocking about in the house but he didn't actually sing a song to us.
Yes. What were the name of that club?
R- Loveclough Working Mans Club it was called.
I thought it were, aye. C.I.U?
R- yes, it was a C.I.U. club. [Club and Institutes Union Affiliated.]
Were there any games you played in the house? You know, say it were a bad day.
R- Yes, we used to play a lot of games, snakes and ladders, draughts and things like that.
Did your parents ever play with you?
R- Yes. Well, I’ll tell you what we used to play a lot of, table tennis. We had a little snooker table. We were mad on snooker. Me dad were a good snooker player and he taught us how to play snooker. He had a little table and we used to put it on the big table after tea. Aye, we used to play snooker and billiards.
Was there anybody in the family that couldn't read or write?
(250)
R- No.
Did you have a regular newspaper?
R- Yes.
What was it?
R- Do you know, I don't know what it were called. I don't know what. The Express, were it going then?
Yes it were going.
R- Yes I think it were the Daily Express.
How about magazines, woman's magazines?
R- Me mother had a woman's magazine yes.
Which one, can you remember?
R - Do you know I don't know whether it were the Woman’s Own or not.
Aye. How about, you know, Children’s Newspaper, anything like that or comics?
R- We used to have comics, used to have the Beano and Dandy, and Film Fun and Knock Out. Yes, all of them.
As you got older did you get on to the Wizard and Hotspur?
R- We went on to books then yes and Hotspur and things like that yes.
Aye. They were good weren't they?
R- Ye. Our Ian has a load upstairs of them now. Victors, nearly brand new, he had them since he were a little un and they’re in good condition.
Eh I can remember I used to look forward to the Wizard and…
R – Yes, they were good.
Hotspur.
R - Hotspur, there were Film Fun. Eh…
Do you remember Wilson?
R- Yes.
The man who knew no fear.
R- Yes.
And Rockfist Rogan weren't it?
R- yes. They were good were them.
Eh, Those were the days Jim. I’d better shut up, we are sounding like a couple of old men. Library, was anybody a member of the library?
R – No. Me dad used to do a fair bit of reading, but it were books what he got at work, you know, he borrowed off…
Were there any books in the house?
R – Yea, what me dad had, that's all.
(10 min)(300)
What sort of books would he read?
R- I think he liked detective books did me dad. And we had a Bible, we had a Bible in the house.
Family Bible.
R- Yes.
Were it one of the big uns?
R – No. It were only a little one, a small one.
Who read that?
R- Well we all use to read a bit of it you know at odd times like when we were younger like. And we used to go to read it before we went to school, at Sunday School you know.
Yes, well I’ll be asking you about that. What time did the children go to bed?
R- When we were younger we used to go about six o'clock, half past six.
Aye, winter and summer?
R- Yes. Well, winter six o'clock, summer happen about seven or half past seven, but no later.
How about your mother and father, what time would they go to bed?
R- I think they used to be in bed by about ten o'clock. But me dad used to be in later than that, he went to, he used to go to the Club a lot you know?
Yes. How often did he go to the club?
R- Oh pretty regular.
Every night?
R- No, not every night but nearly every night, just odd nights he stopped in but nearly all t’fellows were club goers then, you know.
Did you have any pets?
R- I didn't but me brother had, be kept rabbits, he had a few rabbits, and we had a budgie, we always had a budgie.
Budgie. Oh aye.
R- Yes. Me dad always had a budgie in the house, we used to have two.
Did your father smoke?
R- Yes.
What, pipe?
R- No, cigarettes.
Did your mother smoke?
R- Yes.
(350)
Fags?
R – Yes.
How about your brothers and sisters?
R- No. None of us smoked.
Aye. You don't smoke now either, do you?
R- I used to do, but I gave over.
Aye. When did you start?
R- When I went into the Army and I were 19.
Did anyone in the family ever have a bet?
R- No. Oh, me dad used to have a bet.
Horses?
R- Yes and football.
And football? That’d be pools?
R- Yes, he did the pools, but he didn't do the big pools, it were local, a local coupon you know?
When can you remember seeing your first radio?
R- Eh! That's one of them half moon shaped things, you know.
Well, you know, wireless, radio, anything like that you know? Did you always have one from when you can remember?
R- I can always remember us having a radio yes. We were never without a radio.
Aye. Were it mains or battery, can you remember?
R- Mains were this one, mains.
Now then, if you were outside the house, where would you usually play?
R- All over, we used to play in the main road a lot because there were very little traffic and we used to put t’coats down in the middle of the road. [for goalposts]
Burnley Road?
R- On the road itself and play football.
It’s hardly credible now is it.
R- Yes. And the playing ground wore only 50 yard down the road but we never played on it, we used to play in the middle of the road.
Eh God.
R- But on Sundays we used to go down on the park, there used to be a lot of us then you see playing cricket and football.
Who did you play with?
R- All the lads what were local, me brother and…
Was there anybody that you weren't allowed to play with?
R - No we could, we’d play with anybody.
What games did you play?
R- Cricket, football, that were it.
That were it, nothing else? How about rounders?
R- Well we’d play rounders with the girls, and what they called Tin In the Ring. We used to play that. But football and cricket, nothing else, we were that were mad on them, that were the game for us.
Aye, what sort of a ball?
R- Tennis ball.
For both?
R- For both. And sometimes we used to play with somebody else’s case ball, what were a bit better off than we were. And when it got busted, we used to play with the bladder inside and then if the bladder busted we used to stuff the casing with paper and we used to play with that then.
Aye, that's it. Did you ever go for walks?
R- Yes we did a lot of walking.
Did you ever have a bicycle?
R- Yes. Nearly always had a bike, I were mad on bikes. I were keen on tinkering with them you know. I used to mess about with ‘em and anything wrong with a bike, they used to bring it to me and I used to mend it for them.
Did you do a lot of cycling?
R- I did quite a bit yes and me dad used to do a lot you know.
Oh, did he have a bike and all?
R - He had a bike yes. Dad had a bike, and me and Jack had a bike, yes.
Did you use to go off together?
R- Yes, set off when it were nice in summertime.
I'll ask you some more about that in a minute or two. Did you ever go out collecting, you know, Whinberries or Blackberries or firewood?
R- Just odd times. Firewood yes. Aye for the fire yes many a time. Early on, early on in the mornings.
Aye. Where did you go?
R- Up in t’woods. Sometimes we'd chopped little trees down and then we’d to saw it up into little logs and then chop it up. We used to do that regular for to save the coal, put a bit of wood on with a bit of coal.
(450)
Did anyone in the family ever do any fishing?
R- No.
Did your father go out in his spare time apart from the club?
He were a mad on bowls. He played a lot of bowls. He won a lot of things with bowls, canteens of cutlery and little cups, oh yes.
Aye, he'd have his own woods?
R- He had his own woods yes, still has them today.
Still bowls does he?
Only odd times, not so much now.
That would he Crown Green, wouldn't it?
R – Yes.
And you say he had a bike and all. And where would he go if you and him set off, where would he go?
R- Oh, we used to go round Whalley, Clitheroe, all round there.
Yes. When would that be like, Sunday or a Saturday, or what?
R- That were at Sundays.
What did your mother do in her spare time? That’s if she had any?
R- Go camping, she did a lot of camping. Gossiping, you know, going to…
Neighbours ..yes.
R- Neighbours yes.
Was there anything like, you know, Women's Institute, well not Women's Institute, Mother’s Union…
R- They had a Women’s Institute then but she never joined in with them, but people used to come to me mother, camping and they would to go to the back door of the pub with a jug, fill the jug up with beer, take it back home and have a drink and a natter, you see when nobody were in.
(500)
That's it yes. I shall ask you about that in a bit because that’s interesting. I’ll stick to the order the questions are in so we don’t miss anything. Did your mother and father ever go out together?
R - No, me dad always were out on his own.
Can you ever remember him taking your mother out?
R – No. No I can't, me mother were always at home.
Can you ever remember your mother setting off anywhere by herself and going somewhere, you know, that you'd call, sort of exceptional, like going, getting a train and going…
R – No. I don't think so, no. The farthest she went were just up the road to me dad’s sister’s, that were me auntie Bertha.
(20 min)
Where were that at?
R- That was just where you pass the petrol station coming over the moor at Oak Mill at Dunnockshaw. When you're coming through Dunnockshaw there's a petrol station on your left.
Yes.
R- Well just past there there's some houses on your right hand-side and me auntie used to live there, that were me dad's sister.
Yes, just beside Clow Bridge Drive, yes.
R - Well that’s as far as she went, that were it.
Yes. Did the family go to church regular?
R- No. We used to do when we were younger, me and our Jack and our Marion, we used to go to church.
And Sunday School?
R- Sunday School yes. We used to have to go to Sunday School on Sunday. Yes.
Did you go to church as well as Sunday school?
R- We went to church as well yes because it were a Church of England school you see?
Aye, that’s it. What, church in the morning and Sunday school in the afternoon?
R – Yes.
And how about church at night, did you go again at night?
R - We didn't go at night no.
No. So your mother and father didn’t go but they made sure you went.
R- We went, we always had to go to church yes.
Did your mother ever go to church?
R – Not as far as I can remember. No.
Were there any social events connected with the church that you went to? You know, can you remember anything like trips, anything like that?
R – No, we never went on any.
Did you over go away for a holiday when you were young?
R- Not to stay, just odd days to Blackpool.
You can never remember going away for a week’s holiday?
(550)
R – No, never had a week’s holiday, not when we were younger.
And if you had a day out would there be anywhere else apart from Blackpool where you’d go?
R - No it was just Blackpool.
Always Blackpool.
R - On the sands.
Train?
R- Yes.
There, from Rawtenstall?
R - Yes.
How did you get to Rawtenstall?
R- By bus.
Bus?
R- Yes there were buses round, you know?
Would you all go together if you went for a day at Blackpool?
R- Yes all together.
Did your dad go as well?
R- Yes, all the family went yes.
How often can you remember doing that? Roughly? You know, was it fairly regular or was it…
R- No it weren’t regular. Just the odd time.
Aye. Were there any other sorts of outings or visits, when you were young, apart from cycling with your dad.
R - No. No it were all more or less playing round home, you know?
Were any of the family ever connected with the Temperance Movement?
R- No.
Did anybody ever tell you anything about the evils of drink?
R – No.
Did you ever sign the pledge?
R- No.
Can you ever remember seeing women going into pubs when you were young?
R- No that weren't done weren't that. That’s why they used to always go to the back door of the pub.
That’s what I said I’d be getting round to. If a woman went into a pub on her own, like she couldn't go in the club on her own could she, she wouldn’t be allowed in.
R- She weren't allowed in the Workingman’s Club, no.
But was there a pub in Loveclough as well?
R- Yes, it were the Glory.
Glory, that's it yes, of course there is.
R - You pass it coming here.
What would be the attitude to a woman that went into the bar at the Glory on her own?
R- Oh I don’t know, they'd probably talk, do you know. I don’t know really whether, what they used to think about them like that. It just weren’t the done thing you know in them days.
It was certainly frowned on wasn’t it?
R- yes.
Do you know of any families that wore ruined with drinking? Do you know any families where any of the parents drank far too much?
(600)
R- There were me uncle Joe, he used to drink a lot.
Were that your father's brother or your mother's brother?
R- No, me mother’s brother, and he really did drink excessively you know. He were always drunk. Nearly every night when he went out he used to drink a lot.
Was it a fairly common then Jim to see drunken people about?
R- Yes. Drunken fellows, yes, we used to see them, well rolling out of the pubs and all out of the clubs and they'd stagger out at the front door and right into the main road as soon as they come out of the front door you know. Yes, there were a lot of drunkards in them days. They used to drink a lot did fellows.
Tell me, is it my imagination? I don't seem to see as many drunken people about now as I used to. What do you think?
(25 min)
R- No, I don't think you do. Yes I see quite a few knocking about but I don't think…, I don't know. I've seen a lot of these young lads what’s drunk today, whether they are drunk or whether they put it on or not I don't know but there wore a lot of them when I were younger used to be drunk during the day did a lot of fellows you know?
In the local pub and the club were certain rooms kept for certain people, or did anybody booze anywhere?
R- No. There used to be a tap room for the blokes and no women were allowed in it. It were just for the men for to play darts and dominoes and swear you see.
Yes that's it. Tha’rt right. Eh aye, I can remember when I was in a tap room one day and a woman come in. It was like, God, I don't know what it was like, somebody swearing in church. Aye. Can you remember seeing any street performers or people selling stuff who entertained passers by?
(650)
R – No. Not round our way no. No I never seen anything.
No. Can you ever remember people coming round the streets, knife grinders?
R- Oh yes, a rag and bone chap coming. And sharpening your knives and scissors, there used to be a bloke on a pedal bike and he used to lift it up and pull the stand out, and then sit on it and pedal away and sharpen your knives and scissors, oh yes, we used to see them pretty regular.
Aye. There were one in Barlick you know, and I always laugh when I think about knife grinders, they used to call him Flagger, because he couldn't afford a bike and he used to come and knock on the door, get your knives and scissors, take them to grind them and he used to go round the corner and sharpen then on the kerb stone. He’d make a good job, but sharpen then on the kerb stone. We used to call him Flagger but he always did it round the corner, he didn't do it in front of your house.
R- Yes, that's right, yes.
Can you ever remember your dad sharpening the carving knife on the door step?
R- Oh yes, big knife yes. On the door step.
Did you have a stone slopstone?
R- Yes.
Did he ever sharpen it on the front of that?
R- Sometimes he did, yes.
Aye. That’s why a lot of them are worn down at the front you know.
R- Yes, it used to have worn kerb, that’s it.
That's it, that's why a lot of them are worn down at the front with sharpening the carving knife on it. Did you belong to any clubs or societies? You know, before you left school, you know like church choir or Band of Hope or the Scouts or Guides or owt like that?
R- No.
No. Of course you wouldn't be in the Guides would you!
R- No I wouldn't.
They are awful anyway, they wouldn't let you in Jim.
R- I shouldn't think so.
What did you think of Loveclough as a place to live in when you were young? Looking back now you know, what do you think of Loveclough as a place to live in?
R- I thought it were all right, I thought it were a nice place. It were a grand place. There were, like better than living in town because there were, you’d more freedom there were plenty of areas for to play in and for to go walks and play in. You’d to make a lot of your own entertainment in those days because there was nothing for you to go to. But like same as me, the open spaces and the fresh air, and I thought it were all right, I thought it were grand you know.
Yes. Can you ever remember going to a wedding when you were young?
(700)
R- No.
Or a funeral?
R- No. No I can't. We stopped at home I think when there were funerals. My mother and father used to go but we didn’t.
Where did you enjoy going most when you were a child? You know, if somebody had come to you and said “Right, you can go anywhere you want today Jim.” Where would you have gone?
R- To the pictures. I used to like to go to the pictures.
Did you used to go a lot?
R- Once a week.
Yes. Did you have any pocket money?
R- Yes, sixpence a week.
Well, you weren't doing too bad then!
R- No, but with that we used to .. a penny bus fare, well, twopence, a penny down and a penny back, twopence in the pictures and twopence to spend, that were sixpence.
That were the pictures.
R- That were it, aye.
What were the pictures you used to see, can you remember?
R- Hopalong Cassidy and Buck Rogers. Oh yes.
Yes. Flash Gordon?
R- Flash Gordon yes. I used to sit in the twopennies, the first four rows at the front.
(30 min)
That’s it, aye.
R - And get a crick in your neck watching it!
That's it, aye. Flash Gordon, eh, how about that?
R- I used to like that aye. It was grand.
Aye. You and me were going to the pictures at about the same time, I’ll tell you.
R- Eh I used to enjoy it.
I'm just trying to think what t’other were that used to be on. Aye there were the Lone Ranger weren’t there and Hopalong Cassidy
R- Yes, and there were someone else….
And there was one feller, I know I always used to think he was a bit of a bloody puff and I can’t think. It wore a serial, it used to be on each week.
R- Yes it were.
And he were a big soft looking bugger. I can’t remember Jim, I can't this minute…
R- No I can't remember. There is a few and you can’t remember.
Now you've said that your mother's friends used to come camping. Did your father’s friends call at the house often?
R- Yes. They used to come a few times did me dad’s friends.
What would they come for? Just for him to go out or…
R- Just for camping and then a lot of them used to come to have their hair cut, he used to cut hair. And he also mended watches, he were a good watch mender, very good at watch mending.
Aye?
R- Yes he used to mend anybody’s watch, pocket watch, wristlet watch. If you had one, but mostly they were pocket watches, you know, with chains. But he were… And he were also keen on photography, he used to develop his own. He had all the equipment for developing, trays and such. Aye he were pretty keen on that, he had a few hobbies had me dad you know, he were very good at it. And he still cuts his own hair today, he cuts his own hair, with the mirror, big mirror in the back and…
Yes. Aye, it's funny that, I used to work with a fellow that used to do that, aye.
R- With the scissors. And he’d never been to a barbers had me dad in his life.
Would friends call in at the house you know, just call in as they were passing or would they sort of need to be invited?
R- No, they used to, if they were walking past the house and they'd just knock on the window. All right Bill? And then they’d come in and have a natter.
Yes. How would you spend Saturday when you were young?
R- get up in the morning, go playing football, and then look forward to going to the pictures this afternoon. That were like a ritual more or less. Saturday afternoon pictures.
How about Saturday evening?
R- Oh Saturday evening, football and cricket again. And in summertime if we’d been to a cricket match at Saturday afternoon, which we used to go to then, we’d get the wickets and bat out at night, and play cricket and that until we got shouted of to come in.
Did you ever go to any concerts or theatres or music halls or owt like that?
R- No.
Just the pictures.
R- Not when we were young, later on in life we used to go to…
Later on. Yes well, there you are, what I’m talking about now really is before you left school.
R- No we didn't go to any, then.
And then, you know I’ll ask you a bit about school but ... I'll have a quick glance at a bit of politics now. Can you remember anybody in the family ever discussing politics?
R- Never, no.
Do you know what views your father held?
R- Well, he were Labour were me dad, he always had been Labour. They never discussed politics, but I know he were a Labour man.
Yes. You've no idea why he was a socialist, do you know?
(800)
R- No I haven’t, I have no idea no.
How about your mother?
R- Well, I don’t know, not to my knowledge she hadn’t and she never used to discuss it.
Can you ever remember her voting?
R- No. I can’t.
Can you remember your dad voting?
R- I think he did use to vote yes, but I don’t know, not really. I think he did vote you know but I can’t remember.
Was either your mother or your father a member of a political party, you know, were they actually members?
R- No.
Can you remember anything about elections when you were younger? You know, were they big things elections or were they…
R- I can’t remember, no.
No. Have you ever heard your father say anything about women? About women having the vote or women’s role in life? Anything like that?
R- No.
What would you say was your father’s views about women? You know when you think of it, this isn’t meant in the spirit of criticism, it's a way that a lot of men used to think in those days and it sounds to me as if your father was one of them. I mean him and your mother never went out together, and your father would think that doing housework was, you know, it was below him really to do housework wasn't it? I mean like mending something that was broke were a different thing altogether. Now these are all fairly common views. Would you say that your father had a, you know, in some ways really quite a low opinion of your mother. Can you understand what 1 mean?
R- Yes I can understand what you mean .. but I don't know ... He always said to us like “She is to stop at home and do the housework and look after the children” and that were it you know. That’s what she were there for more or less.
Ye, that’s it. A bit like the Andy Capp thing isn’t it, “A woman’s place in the home is in bed unless there’s coal needs fetching in.”
R- Yes. In the home .. that's reight yes. Well that were his view I think.
Aye. And what are your views on that Jim?
R- What, for today? Now?
Yes.
R- Well I don’t agree with that way at all. Probably because I used to help me mother a lot when I were younger. I think times were pretty hard for me mother. And I think he could have given her a bit more help, like same as she had to fetch coal and things like that.
That’s something I wanted to ask you, what sort of a life do you think your mother had.
R- I think she'd a damned hard life personally. It were hard work bringing us up. And me dad used to go out, have his tea and go out and leave me mother to it you see? And she had to sort everything out, and meals .. which women do today. I know some women what do today, they have it all to do some women today, their husbands go out but I don't agree with that. I think if you are married to a woman, I think you should be fifty fifty, you should pull both ways. And that's how, that's .. you know, that makes your marriage. Everybody hasn't the same view, you see but…
But yet, do you think that nowadays, under the sort of freedom that we have nowadays, I don't know, but I've often thought that if women were treated like they were say in the twenties and thirties, I think they'd just up and leave home. But in those days they never, they just never did it. Really, your father, well not just your father, but would you say that it was true that men in those days they really had, they'd got the clean end of the sticky hadn’t they?
R- Oh yes. Everything were going right for 'em. They had the best end of the stick. And all as they did were work and fetch the wage home and go out and have a good time in the pub and come home and that were it you know, and have a good time, and t’mother were at home….
Now would you say that he had that attitude because .. would you say it was because he was naturally a hard rotten bugger, or would you say it was because that was the way he’d been brought up?
R- No. That were the way he'd been brought up. I don't think he were, as some would say, a rotten bugger. That were the done thing them days.
Yes, everybody was the same.
R- Everybody were alike, he didn’t do anything out of the ordinary. The other blokes what went in the club with him did exactly the same thing.
Yes. When you think about it, it’s interesting isn’t it because just about everybody you talk to says the same thing. I think that women must have had a terrible time you know, in those days Jim, honestly. It's one of the things that comes over to me time and time again and when you think of the number of women who were not only doing all the housework but out spinning or weaving all day and then going home and doing all the housework.
R- And then going home…. Aye.
And I mean, from what you've told me, your father wasn't a drunkard.
(900)(40 min))
R- No.
He’d like his drink, and he'd go and have his drink but 1 mean your mother could have been a lot worse off. She could have had a husband who was actually boozing all the money you know and…
R- Yes. But he looked after us at home, we were, you know, we didn’t go short at home.
Yes that’s it aye.
R- But some did used to go out boozing and take all the money with ‘em and just leave a little bit for the wife to sort out.
Did you know any families round about .. Now we are not talking about being ruined by drink and this that and the other, but did you know, were there people about who were worse off than you?
R- Oh yes. There used to be a family, called Fawcett and they lived up on the hill side in a little cottage, and they really were rough. Now stone floors and all as they lived off were jam and bread, and the lads used to go to school, same school as I went to, and they used to wear women’s high heel shoes, and women's frocks, they'd no pants. Like we had little shorts, little short pants. Nowt like that, no stockings. Really rough. And the mother left them when they were little and the father used to bring them up and he were out drinking all day. He would come home everyday drunk. And sometimes they used to sit outside the pub did the lads waiting for their father coming out of the pub and he’d be drunk when he come, and then they used to take him home. And every time you went in that house that table, they used to have like one of them old-fashioned tables with four legs, the old wooden topped things, and it were full of jam and breadcrumbs and stale bread and dripping and that's
all they lived off. They really did rough it. Aye, terrible. That’s why I say we were a lot better off than a lot of people were. Some were better off than we were but I don't think we were poor by any means. But this Fawcett family were poor, and the lads have suffered since. Now they’ve got older they’ve got ulcerated stomachs, they’ve had a rough time as they’ve grown up. I know now, Arthur Fawcett, Billy Fawcett yes they’ve really had a hard time when they've grown up. They’re as old as I am you know and they’ve all had trouble with their stomachs. And that were all caused with their upbringing when they were little. They used to go, no raincoats or little coats to their backs, used to go out in the rain and rainy days like this, saturated, just dripping off their hair and off their nose. Terrible, shocking, I know nowt like it, you couldn't credit it, how, you know, people living like that. And they did.
(950)
Were there, would you say that there were those people that were better off than yourselves, how could you tell they were better off?
R- Well, they were better off. Like same as the clothes what they wore, they were a bit better clothes than what we used to wear.
What sort of jobs would their dads have?
R- Well I don’t know. I don't know what they did. They used to work at C.P.A. and all but I think their fathers were printers, like you know that were a good paid job were printers, and it is today at C.P.A. They’re on top money is the printers. And they had, the younger lads had a bit more pocket money than we had, you know, and their houses were a bit better than what ours were, there were a lot more carpets down in the rooms and …
There wouldn't he a big variation in the houses in Loveclough though would there?
R- No. They were nearly all the same type of house you know?
Yes, because Loveclough really, when you look at it, it's one of your actual factory villages. I mean, nearly all them houses would be put up at the time the mills were being built wouldn't they?
R- Yes, they were all round about the same.
It's not like, did Loveclough have a church?
R- They had a Providence Church. That were, that's up against the boundary there where you come on to the boundary. They didn't have an actual…
Yes but they didn't have an actual Church of England did they? Where did you go to church?
R- Yes, they had a Church of England but it were up on the top round what they call Swinshaw Lane. It were a big church, we used to go there from school, we used to walk it, used to come out of the school and up the path way and on to Swinshaw Lane and than we used to walk it to the church. And then we used to got to it off the main road which to down by the New Inn and we passed through the New Inn and we used to go up there and then into the church and it were just up Swinshaw Lane, that were a Church of England school were that.
When you may Providence what were that?
R- That were a Providence Methodist Church, my wife were, she used to go there. She were a Methodist my wife.
Aye. Methodist aye. Was she a Methodist? Aye.
R - Yes, and we were Church of England..
Oh I'll have to pull her leg about Ranters and Congos and such. That’s what they used to call than in Barlick. The Primitive Methodists were called Ranters.
R - Did they? Is that right?
Aye. Ranters and the Congregationalists were called the Congos.
R - I've never heard that like, I've never heard her mention anything like that.
Oh aye. Ranters and Congos. Reight, I’ll tell you what, that’ll do for tonight Jim.
(992)(45 min)
SCG/08 July 2003
7,175 words.