THIS TAPE HAS BEEN RECORDED ON AUGUST 14TH 1979 AT 26 HARGREAVES DRIVE, RAWTENSTALL. THE INFORMANT IS JIM RILEY, MULE SPINNER AT SPRING VALE MILL. THE INTERVIEWER IS STANLEY GRAHAM.
Right we’ll go on with education a bit now. We’ll just probe into your education a bit Jim.
R- Don't probe right deep.
Now then, what school did you go to?
R- Just a small primary school across the road. Just across the road from where we lived.
What were the name of it?
R - It were called Rows school.
Aye. Was it an endowed school or a board school or what was it. D you know?
R- No. It just were an endowed school like well ...
With the church?
R- Yes, C of E school, what were run with the church.
Yes. Like did they have a board of governors, and the parson were on it, you know?
R – Yes. The parson were on it, he were on it, from the church.
And he'd come down once a week or so? Aye, that’s it.
R- Yes and they used to give … yes.
How old were you when you first went to school?
(50)
R- I think I went when I were four. I just was four when I went.
Have you any idea how old your parents were when they went? Have you ever heard them talk about it?
R - No I don’t.
What good do you think school did you?
R - Well, I think it learnt you to look after yourself, they used to teach you to learn .. like, behave yourself like, more or less for discipline and things like that, they were good in that way.
Now that's interesting. A lot of people would have said straight away that they taught you to read and write and arithmetic and things that and the other.
R- Yes they did, but they also taught you to look after yourself and not be cheeky or owt like that they used to tell you.
Did you like school?
R - Not a right lot, no I weren't reight good at school.
Why not?
R - Because I didn’t think I were clever, I didn't ... Did I like what, that school I went to what we’re talking about now at Rows. It were all right, it were only infants you know. It were only young uns and it weren't so bad.
How long were you going to that school?
R - I think 1 were there till I were ten.
And then where did you go?
R- I went to St John's at Crawshawbooth.
Yes, that was another church school?
R - That were another church school yes.
Yes. And how long did you stay there?
R- Till I left school, till I left at fourteen, then. Yes.
Fourteen, yes. Well, we'll get round to that. That’d be in 1945?
R - That were 1945.
Forty-five yes, just at the end of t'war, that's it, aye.
R - Just at the end of the war.
So you are a contemporary with me, you're just a little bit older than me, but not much. What were the teachers strict about?
(100)
R - About your clothes, what you wore, being tidy.
Aye.
R - Yes, they used to like to see you were tidy and properly turned out. Yes, your dress.
Yes. Would you say they were more strict about things like dress and discipline than they were about actual learning?
R - That school I went to at first they were. They liked to see you clean and tidy, they also liked you to learn pretty quickly you know, but they used to more or less be as they liked discipline and be tidy and be punctual.
(5 min)
Did you ever have a chance to go to grammar school, from the other school at Crawshawbooth?
R - No.
No. Did anybody go to grammar school from there?
R- It were just certain ones you know, what, were the pick of the class what were clever and I don’t know anybody of our class what did.
Did you go to night school after you'd left school?
R - No.
When you were at school did you get home for your dinners?
R - When I went to St John's I used to stop to me dinners at school.
Were there school dinners then?
R- There were school dinners yes.
But when you were at Rows school you used to come home.
R- When we were at Rows school we used to come home. Well it were only across the road and I used to go across.
That's it yes. Did you get any training in anything any different than the three Rs at school? You know, for instance did you do handicrafts, anything like that. Woodwork, anything like that?
(150)
R - Not at the primary school, at the other school we used to do woodwork.
Yes. Did you like that?
R- Yes, we used to go every Monday. Every Monday morning.
When you say you used to go, did you do it at the school there or did you go somewhere else?
R- No we used to go to a woodwork class, to a woodworking place, that were St James’s in Rawtenstall. They had a building on its own for woodwork, it belonged to St James's school and they used to take us too.
How did you go, on a bus?
R – Yes, they used to take us on the bus yes.
How about sport at school?
R - Oh yes, football and cricket.
Again?
R - Yes and at St John’s we used to have gardening, that were every Friday were gardening. We had allotments.
Aye.
R- Yes and they used to take us gardening, we used to all have, four lads used to have a little plot of us own.
Which would you rather do, Woodwork and Gardening or Reading and Writing and Arithmetic?
R - Oh Gardening and Woodworking, I weren't right clever at school. No.
Oh now that’s … No, don't run yourself down, don't run yourself down, you’re no mug. Did your parents ever visit the school?
R - No.
You know like nowadays they have got these Parent Teachers Association and all the rest of it?
R – Yes, I know what you mean but no they didn't, no.
Did they ever show any interest in your school work?
R – Yes when we brought it home, homework. Yes me dad used to look at it because he were pretty clever were me dad you know?
Yes. Did the school ever get in touch with your parents about your progress, you know, did you have school report? Anything like that?
R - Yes we had school reports, they sent them yes. Yes me dad used to look at them and he used to give his verdict.
(200)
Which were?
R - As it were, we weren't doing right good you know, time we pulled us socks up kind of thing you know.
Oh that’s it aye. When it came round to leaving school was there any serious attempt made at what nowadays they call career guidance? You know, did anybody ever make any suggestions as to what you should do when you left school?
R - None at all, no.
None at all?
R - All as the teachers asked us was what did we fancy doing when we left school. We said “we don't know” you know. All we wanted to do was leave school. But there were scholarships what they could go for you know, in for a scholarship but I didn't go in for one.
What do you think your teacher would have thought of as a good job for you when you left school?
R - I don’t know.
What do you think they had in their minds for you when you left school? Let’s put it another way Jim. What jobs were open to you when you left school round here? What were the possibilities?
(10 min)(250)
R – Well, here there were only what there is today, there were textiles and slippers, I think that's all there were and the C.P.A. you know, that's all there were. There were like the trades what there were going you know, plumbing and things like that but it meant going to night school for it and that, you know, I just weren't interested you know?
R- Did you go straight into textiles?
R- Nog I went to Rawtenstall to Ilex Mill, that were a slipper works and I started there on clicking, learning to click, it were what we called clicking.
(250)
What's clicking?
R - It's when they stamp heels out on a machine and me first wage were nineteen and six. First wages.
Yes. Well, when we get round to work we'll get round to that, but the point is that they never gave you any guidance and you just went into the first job that you could get in to.
R- No. I just went me own way, yes.
Yes aye. If you could have had a choice yourself, what would you have gone to do yourself, had you any ideas of your own, you know?
R - I hadn't at that time. No I didn’t, no I didn't.
No ideas, no. When you were at school can you remember the school Inspector coming round any time?
R – Yes, twice. He used to come round like and you know and he used to look at the register and to see who were missing and things like that and the other. Oh yes, I've known him come round to the house to the lads and lasses that were absent.
That’s the attendance feller isn’t it. Aye that's a different bloke really isn’t it. Aye, how about medical inspections at school?
R - Oh we used to have that, yes. Eye, ear and nose inspection. They had a look in your hair and such.
Aye, the nit nurse.
R- Oh yes, the nit nurses, yes we used to have them pretty regular.
Yes. Did you ever have nits?
R - Yes.
Yes aye. What wore the cure then for nits?
R- Me mother used to buy a bottle, I don't know whether it were called Sulio or sommat.
Called? [Jim was right, I found a reference to Sulio as a cure for nits.]
R – Sulio, sommat like that. It were some stuff in a bottle, and it did smell. She used to put it on and rub it in us hair, and then leave it then. And then, then wash it out after and it did use to stink.
Did it do the job?
R - Oh yes it got rid of them. We only had them once. But you know you could catch it from school if somebody else had them you see. That's how you caught them. You weren't necessarily a dirty family.
Yes that's it. Oh no, Christ I have had nits. I've had nits aye and so have my kids.
R - I think a lot had them in them days, it were common thing were nits in them days.
The thing about nits, yes they still are about. And you knows they say that they could eradicate nits but do you know what the reservoir is for nits? You know where they strike up again from? It's the fathers. Because the fathers on the whole won't treat their head at the same time as the kids. Because they say that, I've read somewhere that I think it was for a million pounds they could eradicate nits in this country in four weeks because all they’d do was treat everybody twice inside four weeks for nits. And it’d mean that it’d kill every nit in the country off. But they'd have to do everybody and they said it's the men that won’t do it. Aye.
R - Won't do it.
That’s what they say anyway. Right, we'll have .. I'll ask you some questions about the neighbourhood, you know, the village of Loveclough itself. If somebody was ill or if somebody had died or was confined, would the neighbours come in and help?
R - Oh yes, yes they used to do yes.
How could they help?
R - Well they used to do washing for them or going to do some shopping for them. You know, and things like that.
Yes. If somebody died who laid them out?
R - Well, half .. they used to do it themselves. If a woman died I think the husband used to lay them out or if he didn't want to do then a neighbour would come in, and they used to lay then out. There used to be women what used to do it.
Used to do it, yes.
R- Yes, that were a common thing.
Yes. Did you have any experience yourself say when your mother died, of having a death you know, and having people laid out and lying in the house? Have you ever lived in a house where somebody's been laid out?
R – Yes me mother.
Your mother, yes, now what…
R - That's, that's the only one, and me sister.
Yes, when was that? Well your sister was ...
R - 1971
1971 yes.
Me mother died in 1960.
Nineteen sixty. Now .. and both of them were laid out at home were they?
R - Yes.
They didn't go to a chapel of rest?
R – No, both at home yes.
No, they were laid out at home and buried from home. How long were they at home before they were buried?
(350)(15 min)
R- I think about four days, yes four days.
Now, were there any problems, you know, with having somebody dead in the house for four days?
R – No.
No.
R- In what way do you mean problems?
Well Johnny now, I was asking John Greenwood about this and he said he could remember when his father died they had him laid out in the front room, and he said they draped a sheet across the bier and had the coffin laid out. He said underneath the bier, he said he’d never forget it, he said there was an enamel pan with Jeyes fluid in it so that the smell of the Jeyes fluid hid the smell of the corpse you see?
R- Oh yes, smell of the corpse, yes.
That’s just what I was wondering you know whether there was any problems like that.
R – No, we didn’t do anything. No.
Because, 1 mean that’s one of the reasons why people nowadays usually have them in a chapel of rest you know because, it all depends what people have died of, and what the weather’s like you know, I mean, it's one of them things.
R- Yes that's right, yes. No there were no problem as far as that were concerned.
No.
Did it bother you at all?
R- No.
Was the coffin open or closed?
R – Opened.
Opened. Why?
R - Well I mean they're just for people to come and have a look at them you know?
Did people come to look?
R - Oh yes. Yes we had a lot of people came looking at me mother.
How was your mother dressed? Was she dressed in ordinary clothes?
R - In the coffin do you mean?
Yes.
R – No, she were in white. That's right, all white.
And your sister?
R- And me sister and all yes.
Yes, aye. And then you'd be going, you'd go from there to the church for the service and from there to…
R - To the Crematorium.
They were both cremated were they?
Cremated, yes.
Which Crematorium was that, Rawtenstall?
R – No. It were Burnley.
Burnley? Aye. And then what did you do with the ashes afterwards?
R - Well we didn't have them, we didn't get the ashes, they were put in...
No, they’d be put on the Garden of Rest down there?
R- Yes.
Which do you think in the bet way, burying or cremation?
(400)
R- I don't, cremation I think is better.
Why?
R- Why? I don't know
No? Go on…
R – Well. It saves all the people going to the burial ground and keeping it tidy and putting fresh flowers on ‘em. I know some probably do like to do that but if you don't, if you, once you start leaving it and it overgrows you know? And it's …
Yes. I agree with you Jim. I agree with every word you say. You know, the only place I think in this country where they do things sensibly, in Scotland where all burial grounds, it doesn’t matter what denomination they are, are a charge on the rates and the Council look after them. And if ever you go to Scotland look round and you’ll find that every graveyard and every burial ground is as tidy as a little park because they treat them as parks.
R - That's right yes.
And I think that's the way to do, I think that our burial grounds and cemeteries in this country are an absolute disgrace.
R- Yes, they are.
I think they are an absolute scandal. And you get situations like an old burial ground I could take you to now that's in the middle of an engineering factory. It’s an old Methodist burial ground that's just been absolutely let run derelict and I think it’s terrible. Well you can find then all over the place and I think they are absolutely disgusting.
R - They are.
And I think that they are one of the finest arguments for cremation that there is. Because it saves all that.
R- Yes I agree with you there.
Yes. I completely agree with you. Now you have already told me about neighbours visiting each other and it’d be a cup of tea and camping and all the latest scandal.
R - Yes, all the latest gossip.
Aye. Who’d had a baby a bit early and what not. Did they do a lot of talking on the door steps in summer?
R – Yes. Always see them camping outside. And I can picture me mother
camping now at the front one Sunday afternoon and me dad - I have a photograph actually of it - and me dad coming out of the club when it closed at three o'clock. And he used to come out at the front door of the club and me mother’s at the front, my wife’s there and a nice Sunday afternoon it were, with the pram with the youngest, it were our Sheila what were in the pram then. And they were coming out of the club then. And you could see woman all down the row, all out on the window bottoms. Aye, all camping.
(450)(20 min)
Aye. Can you remember neighbours, I mean, up to now we have been talking about neighbours getting on with each other you know, visiting each other and helping each other when they were ill. Can you remember them falling out with each other for anything? You know, neighbours quarrelling.
R- Yes, a few times, over next door's kids throwing stones and doing this that and the other. All t’kids falling out and then mothers coming and knocking on the door, “Your so and so’s done so and so!” And, and they start shouting at one another and then they go in and clash the door and they won’t speak to one another for a few days. That's what they used to do yes. And then they'd come round after a day or two, but it were all done through the ruddy kids. Aye, them falling out.
I’ll tell you what I can remember hearing women arguing about, washing lines.
R - Oh yes.
Have you ever heard them arguing about washing lines, whose washing line, whose it were you know and .. and this and that.
R - They used to put the washing on one line and used to go out, “What are you doing with your washing on my line?” “Well I thought that were my line!” So that’s your line over there, and they argued.
Aye, that's it. You were saying about people like Billy Fawcett and Arthur you know, that were really poor, were they treated any differently from the other children at school. Now for a start off, did you treat them any differently than other children? Did it make any difference to you the fact that they were so poor?
R - No we used to play with them just the same as the others.
Yes.
R- But we used, it were always at the back of us mind, you know, as they were really poor and they were being hard done to and ...
Yes. Do you think the teachers treated them any differently?
R- No, I don't think they did. No they didn't. No I can’t say as we did. No.
Now, you were telling me, but it was while the tape was off, about them. Anyway you were telling me about them. I'd like to coax you to tell me more about it, about them being in cast off women’s clothes and shoes. Yes.
(500)
Yes. So they were actually wearing dresses to school?
R - Arthur Fawcett. No, it weren't Arthur it were Billy. He had a woman’s frock on, he went to school with a woman's frock on and high heel shoes what belonged to his, well it must have been his mother, when she left them you know. And they were in the house and that's all they had to wear. They'd no pants and that were it. And he went to school with them on. It's incredible, high heeled shoes, miles too big for him. He used to slur out of them going to school. And he used to go with ‘em on in winter time, snow on the ground and all.
This went on for a fair while?
R - Yes.
So a family like that would be the sort of family that you'd think of as rough.
R- Oh yes.
Now, disregarding the Fawcett’s for a minute, what do you think were the things which'd make you think about a family as rough? You know, would it be the way they were dressed, or the way the parents acted or what. You know, there would be certain families apart from the Fawcett’s that you’d regard as rough, wouldn't there?
R- Yes.
Besides yourselves. Now what do you think would generally be the reason why they were regarded as rough? In other words what was the difference between a rough family and a respectable family?
R - I don’t know. In what way do you mean like?
Well, for instance would it be, I know I'm pushing you a bit here. I don’t want to put words into your mouth that I want you to tell me. But for instance I think that you'd think more about a family that looked after the children than one that didn't look after the children wouldn't you?
R- Yes.
(25 min)(500)
You know, were these the sort of things that divided the rough families from the respectable families you know. Were they the families that kept themselves clean and kept things tidy, things like that?
R - There were, there were a lot of families what were .. what were poor, not as poor as Fawcetts but their houses were clean, you know, they had pretty good…
Yes. But I think perhaps we are talking about different things here aren't we. I think you'll agree with me if I say something to you, that it was possible to be poor and respectable, and have a fair amount of money and be rough, do you understand what I mean? It was, wasn’t it?
R- Yes.
It wasn't really just a question of being poor or being well off, it was the way people behaved wasn't it. Now what were the sort of things that would divide the bad families from the good families? The respectable families from the families that weren't respectable?
R - What divided them?
Yes you know say you had somebody that for instance didn't put stuff in the dustbin, they’d just throw it down in the bloody street. There’d be families like that about wouldn’t there?
R - There were quite a few families like that. Yes, what never used the dustbins yes.
Yes, and I mean, they wouldn't necessarily be the poor families.
R- Oh no. They probably had plenty of money you know but they didn’t live the way you thought as they'd live you see.
That’s it aye.
R- They put on airs and graces, you know, like they…
Aye, just dirty buggers in other words.
R - Yes and they used to have plenty of money, and you used to think “Eh, them dirty buggers” you know and they can’t have so much money you know and .. but they were well off you know, they were better off than you were.
Would you agree with me that, in the times we are talking about when both you and I were lads, it was very important for people to keep up certain standards and be respectable no matter what the circumstances were. People used to place a great deal importance on being though of as respectable, especially women who wanted to be thought of as tidy women and good providers and this, that and the other. It was very important wasn’t it. Probably more so than nowadays. Yes aye. I’ll tell you something that’s very closely connected with that. It’s always struck me and I don’t know whether it has ever struck you. When you were young were you ever told that you shouldn‘t go into people's houses when they were having a meal?
(600)
R - Oh yes. Yes we used to always be told not to go at meal times and whenever we went we’d always to knock an the door and wait till somebody come and asked us in. We hadn't to go in, only if we were invited. If ever we went to a house we had to knock and wait. And me mother or me dad used to say “Where are you going?” Like “We are going to so and so’s.” “Look at the clock, you are not going yet, they are having their tea.” And that were it.
Yes. Now why do you think that was? What do you think the reason for that were? Have you any thoughts about it yourself?
R- I don't know, it's 'happen because you were showing your manners you know, that you were brought up that way as you hadn't to do it. When you went after they'd had their meal they'd probably think “Oh well, they know their manners, their parents have told them they haven’t to go”
That's it aye. It's a very complicated thing and a lot of people don’t realise how complicated. What we are talking about is what the academics call the social structure of the community. The view has been put forward that one of the reasons for this was, and this is very common, I was told the same things when I was a lad, exactly what you've just said. Me mother would look at the clock and say “You’re not going round to so and so’s, they’ll be having their tea.” That sort of thing. And there were two reasons, well it was the same reason really, people didn't like other people to see how they were eating because if they were eating reight well they didn't want other people to be jealous of them, and if they weren't eating very well because they were poor, they were having a bad week or a bad time they didn't want other people to know about it. And it was a sort of a self-defence mechanism you know. People didn't want other people coming into their houses when they were having a meal so they didn't let the children go into the other people's houses.
R- That's right, yes.
And I think perhaps there is a lot of truth in that.
R - Yes there is, yes.
In later years when I think about it I’ll admit, like you, it never struck me at the time. But having thought about it a lot I think perhaps there was a lot of truth in that, meals were a very private thing weren't they, they were for the family. And I don’t know about you but it was very seldom in those days that you'd get invited into a friend's house to have something to eat. Nowadays it's fairly common. When I was married, when I was living at home with the family, many a time the kids had brought somebody home and you’d say “Oh, you'll stop to your tea.” you know.
R - Yes. Well that does happen here yes.
But it never happened when I was a lad.
R- No. No, we never had anybody come in and just say “Right, sit down, we are going to have us tea and you can have some.” We used to have tea just with the family, and that were unless we got invited.
(650)(30 min)
That's it unless it was a special thing like Sunday.
R- To go for a special thing, a birthday or sommat like that.
That's it and it was always tinned salmon. It was always tinned salmon Jim. Anyway we're just going on a bit now. The 1930s and 1940s were rough times, no doubt about that.
R- Yes.
Can you remember anything about any relief going on like soup kitchens or anything like that?
R- No.
No. Can you ever remember anybody on about workhouse or anything like that? They had all been done away with then?
R - I can’t remember them.
Can you remember what sort of a state widows were in that lived as say people, women without husbands, were they any worse off than other people? Had you any widows living near you?
R - I think there were but I'm not reight sure. Well they had the widow’s pension had they then?
I don't think they had Jim.
R- Hadn’t they? They'd only ...
I don’t think they had. Or at least it’d be very meagre.
R- Yes. No, they hadn’t because I think they used to like baby-sit. Look after other families children and that's how they got their money more or less you know. And there were…
Yes. There’d be Parish?
R- Pardon?
There’d be Parish Relief at one time wouldn't there? I know that was going on up to about nineteen .. I don't know whether it was going on in the 30’s but it was going on during the 20's.
R – Yes. I doubt it.
They used to get so much off the parish. You know, like Lloyd George. Well, Lloyd George were the sick pay, but it was the same sort of thing. How often did you see your relatives? You know like your aunty Bertha, anybody like that?
R- Yes well me aunty Bertha and me aunty Annie, they lived on the same row. I used to see them every day, you know?
So you'd see them just about every day aye.
R- Every day yes.
Were your mother on good terms with them?
R - Oh yes.
If you were asked, this is a question that I hate, but what social class do you think your family belonged to? You know, would you say that you were working class?
R - They were just working class.
Yes. Now, would you say that you were at the bottom end of the working class? The middle or the top?
R – No, I should think we were at the top end of the working class. I think we were a bit better off than a lot were you know, we weren’t too bad you know.
Yes, that's it. If you just thought about the men that lived down that road that you were living on would they all have similar jobs to your dad?
(700)
R- They nearly all worked at C.P.A. round there. There were one or two, just odd uns what were miners and they worked at the pit you know? Worked up there.
Yes. Which pit was it?
R- Burnley.
Burnley aye.
R- At was it Bank hall?
Yes, Bank Hall Colliery. It's been done away with now, yes, Bank Hall..
R- It used to be, yes.
Was there any area round Loveclough that was thought of as the rough part of Loveclough?
R - The rough part. No not really, it were all about the same this area.
Yes. I think that's one of the things about Loveclough, it…
R - It were like a well knit community you know, all about the same.
So there weren’t any parts that you think of as better either.
R- No, not really no. Not till you got down into Crawshawbooth and they were a bit better there like, at Crawshawbooth but not round our way.
Who were the most important people in Loveclough?
R- Eh, I forget their names now, they lived in a big house just farther down than we were. I think they were called Kershaw.
What would they be like manufacturers or something.
R- They were, they owned the mills.
Yes. Now apart from them would there be anybody else in the village that would be considered as being more important than anybody else? You know say by virtue of their job.
R- No.
I'm thinking about people like the postmaster or the parson or the doctor.
(35 min)(750)
R - Well there used to be a doctor, there used to be a parson, a vicar but I don’t know whether they were important or not.
Were they important to you?
R- No, not really. No.
No. That’s a good a way of looking at it. How about police in the area. Did you have your own policeman? Were there a policeman living in the village.
R- There were a policeman in the village, a village policeman yes.
Yes. What did you think about him?
R- Oh he were all right, he were pretty strict like he used top punch you if you did owt wrong or owt like that. He were all right. Called him Bobby Light.
Light?
R- Bobby Light he were called. And he lived in the middle of a row of houses, right against the park and he were all right.
You see he lived in the village and he’d have to get on with people.
R- Yes well he did, he lived in the middle of the row of houses that I lived in in the village. Aye.
Yes. When you were a lad did anything over happen like a murder, a robbery, anything exciting like that?
R- I can't remember anything.
Can't remember anything? No big police activity, no big break-in?
R- No.
No. Can you remember anyone when you were young being called either a real gentleman or a real lady? You know like your mother saying “She is a real lady!” or a real gentleman?
R - No.
No. If she did refer to anybody like that what do you think it’d take for her to refer to somebody like that? Because I'm sure that, in common with my mother she will have used the term from time to time. What do you think constituted a lady or a gentleman to your mother?
R- I don't know, do you mean the Mayor's wife or somebody like that?
Aye, that's it aye. Anyway. We’ll get away from the social business, we have got through that now, we'll get on to sommat that's a bit. Did you have any special cures for illness in the family? Do you know, like the sweaty sock round the neck and so on.
R- Yes, I know what you mean. We used to .. I'll tell you what we used to have, vinegar on brown paper for tooth ache. We used to do that, I used to put it on, 1 used to have tooth ache and I used to put vinegar on brown paper and put it on your face and put a scarf round your neck and it used to take it away. Then we had all the normal things, rubbing bottles and things like that.
Aye. Beechams pills and Syrup of Figs. Tell me, did they ever give you Easton Syrup? Have you ever come across that? God, it was one of these things, a tonic. It just looks like pee, it's yellow in a bottle and God it tastes terrible, Easton Syrup.
(40 min)(800)
R- Easton Syrup ... never heard of it.
Aye, it's got strychnine in it, that's why it tastes so bloody terrible. And you said your mother never made any of her own remedies? She never made anything like camomile tea? Belladonna plasters or owt like that?
R Oh aye I've seen them put then on me dad for his bad back. I've seen them Belladonna Plasters yes.
Aye, Belladonna Plasters, I've got one of them at home actually. Can you ever remember the doctor coming? Did you ever have to call the doctor?
R- Yes, Doctor Braham, he were called Doctor Braham, he lived at Crawshawbooth. Yes, he were the family doctor.
And did you have to pay him when he came?
R - Me mother used to pay, you had to pay him yes. I don't know how much but she used to pay him then for a visit.
That's it. Can you over remember having any difficulty paying him?
R - No not as I know of. No.
No. Did your family belong to a friendly society, anything like that do you know. Friendly Society, Burial Society, anything like that, you know these little insurances?
R – No, I don’t know. I think she were in an Insurance but I don't know what it were. No, I can't remember.
If your father was off work ill would he get any sick pay?
R - 1 think he did.
And he’d be covered by t'Lloyd George wouldn't he? Can you ever remember the family paying anything to a hospital scheme? You know at one time they used to knock a penny or twopence a week out of your wage didn’t they.
R - I think they used to knock some out of me dad's wage. I'm not very sure but I think they did.
Did anyone in the family over have to have any operations at hospital? You know, go in for an operation?
R – No.
Can you remember any babies being born at home? Can you remember, no
you were only eighteen months old weren't you?
R- I were, yes.
Were there any disease that the family particularly dreaded catching? You know, when you were young. Think about the diseases that were about.
R- I had diphtheria.
You had diphtheria?
R- I had diphtheria when I were young. I were only ten when I had that.
Aye. Can you remember anything about it?
R- Not a reight lot no. I can remember being in hospital with it, and I remember me mother and dad coming and looking at me, and they could only see me through the window, they weren’t allowed to come in the ward.
Yes. Did they tube you? You know, did they cut your throat and tube you?
R- Not as I know, I can't remember that. I can remember being in hospital but what they did I don't know.
But I that was the thing about diphtheria, your throat swelled up and they used to have to cut your throat and put a tube in didn't they?
R – Yes. You couldn't breath aye. But I can remember them coming and looking at me through the window.
And how about scarlet fever, can you remember that?
R- I can remember people having it yes but we didn’t have anything like that.
Did you know anybody that had rickets?
R - No.
Do you know anybody that has bow legs that was young when you were young, that has bow legs now?
(850)
R- Yes, there used to be a lad, just a bit older than me, Jack Smith, he had bow legs.
That's nearly sure rickets you know.
R- Is it?
Malnutrition.
R - Oh his legs.
When your mother had a child, if she hadn't enough milk to breast feed, how would she have fed the children? Would she use the bottle?
R - I should imagine she would, yes.
Was your mother particular about things like disinfecting the house and catching flies?
R - Oh yes. Yes she were clean in the house, we had fly catchers up and…
Yes. Oh aye, with a million flies on? Aye. Do you think that she understood the connection between dirt and disease, you know, germs and disease?
R- Yes, I think she did yes.
Oh it's interesting in itself is that, you see because a lot of people didn't. We were on about medicine and it seems to me that I can always remember when I was a lad, in spring you used to be given brimstone and treacle. Did you get the same? Black treacle with sulphur in?
R- We had black treacle yes. A spoonful of black treacle, but not brimstone, no.
You were lucky you didn’t get the sulphur with it.
R- We didn't get the sulphur in it no.
But what did you get the black treacle for, then?
R - I don’t know, she used to give us that though for colds and what have you and things like that. I don't know what ...
Was there anything else that your mother would give you? Can you remember her giving you anything else? You know, favourite remedies?
R- No I can't remember anything like that.
God, when I think of the number of things my mother gave us. You must have been very lucky. The number of things my mother had in the cupboard do you know, like, what was it? Fenning’s Fever Cure and Fenning’s Cooling Tablets and Beecham’s Powders and Beecham’s Pills.
R- Yes. Oh yes we had all them what you are talking about and Vaseline and zinc ointment and .. all things like that.
Aye ... and boracic acid powder. That reckoned to just about cure anything didn't it?
R - Boracic powder, yes.
Aye, boracic acid powder and surgical spirits aye. I think that people used to have more of that stuff about in them days than they do now because I mean now you go down to the doctor and he gives you penicillin for every bloody thing.
R- Yes they do, yes.
In those days it was the boracic acid powder and the surgical spirits and the Belladonna Plasters. I mean, that was how people kept healthy. Anyway we’ll stop this tape here, Jim. You have done well tonight. Thank you very much.
SCG/09 July 2003
7,246 words.