THIS TAPE HAS BEEN RECORDED ON AUGUST 15TH 1979 AT 26 HARGREAVES DRIVE, RAWTENSTALL. THE INFORMANT IS JIM RILEY, MULE SPINNER AT SPRING VALE MILL. THE INTERVIEWER IS STANLEY GRAHAM.
Right Jim. So you were down at Ilex and were you spinning about the same counts at Ilex?
R - Yes# 1 think they were the same counts, sevens, they were sevens, yes I think they wore all sevens and they were all for rewinding.
Was that sale weft?
R – No. I don't think they did sale weft at Ilex, it all went to be rewound and it went to Longholme Shed to be woven at the weaving shed there.
And then from Ilex then, what made you go from Ilex to Whitakers then?
R- Well, I had had enough with shift work.
Aye that's it, yes.
R- You see that’s what did me. I did three and a half years and it were long enough you know?
Yes. So Whitaker’s have never been on shift work?
R - Never done shift work, Whitakers. They had talked about going on shift work, but it never materialised you know.
Good job. Anyway, so you went to Whitaker's where you are now then. And when you went to Whitaker's did you go as a mule spinner?
(50)
R- Oh yes. But when I went to Whitaker's I didn't go to Spring Vale where I am now, I went to Grane Road, Holme Spring. They had five pairs of mules in there and I went on a pair in there with my brother Andy and then of course they broke them up, they took them out and then they moved us over to Spring Vale.
Yes. Now, I should have asked you, when you were at Holme Mill, what
sort of mule were you using? Whose mules were you on there?
R- Taylor Lang’s.
Taylor Lang.
R- Taylor Lang’s, just the same ones I am on now.
Yes. What were they at Ilex?
Taylor Lang.
Ah. So they were fairly popular round here.
R- Well, they were popular yes. There were what they call Asa Lees mules, them’s more complicated, but there were very few of them. I think we just had one side at Dunnockshaw, not one pair, one side in.
Yes
R- But Whitakers hadn’t any of them in.
Were there any advantages with those mules?
R - These Asa Lees? Well, they made a better cop, you know. They said they were easier to gait up when you doffed and things like that but 1 never ran them you know so I don’t know anything about them really.
Yes. So really you have been on the same sort of mules all your working life.
R - Taylor Lang all my life.
So you’ll know then mules inside out by now?
R - More or less.
(100)
Aye. What do you mean, more or less! You do well to laugh! [Jim laughs] Aye. Anyway, that’s it, we have got you across to Whitakers, you are spinning there at Whitakers, you have come across there and they have moved you into Spring Vale. Now, how do you like Spring Vale for working in, you know. Is spinning there all right?
R- Oh yes, it's comfortable, it's grand. Yes, it's a nice place to work at in Spring Vale. Everybody gets on with everybody else you know. It’s smashing you know? I think that's half the battle, if you get on with them what’s working with you.
Yes, I was going to ask you about that actually. What is it that makes the difference when you are working, what is it that makes the difference between a good shop to work at and a bad shop to work at?
R- Well, that’s it. It's the people what works round you and if you get a good mate to work with on the mules, a good partner, that’s half the battle.
I thought that watching you many a time, it mast be a beggar if you are on with somebody you can’t get on with.
R - Oh I have been on with a few.
Have you?
R - Oh yes, I have, do you know, you can fall out with ‘em just that easy, you know? If you don’t get on with somebody, then you’re better off splitting up.
Aye,
R - You know, if you go down to the office and tell the boss as you have been falling out and things are not going right, “Could I have a move?” And then they like sort something out for you you know. But you've both got to go you know? It’s no good one going down and saying “I can’t work with him.” You have got to both go down and say, you know, as we can’t hit it off. Do you know?
So there's got to be a certain amount of common sense and agreement between you before that can happen.
R – Yes.
(150)
Have you ever been in a position, working with another spinner on a set of mules, where they haven’t even got the common sense to do that?
R - Oh yes.
So what happens then?
R - Well I went down in the office and told them like I weren’t working with this bloke you know. And they said “What’s wrong?” So I could tell them what were to do. I told them I couldn't get on and kept falling out, and so he says “Right, we’ll try and sort sommat out.” And I came back and they sent for my partner to go down, and they wanted to know his side of the story. Instead of getting us both down and thrashing it out there and then you see but each one of us told his own story. I don’t know what he had said and he didn't know what I had said. It went on for a bit you know before eventually we did like split off you know. But it meant unsettling somebody else on some other mule, that's what happens. You see everybody else has settled with their own partner, then you have to try to sort yourselves out there and then on that pair, or else try and disturb somebody else you see. Which they probably don’t want to split up you see?
Yes, that’s it.
R- That your mate's on your other pair.
That’s it, aye.
R- And it’s all rather difficult, you know.
What way can you make it difficult for each other or better for each other when you work.
R- Oh, lots of ways, a lot of ways. I mean, the same as them bobbins what we are putting in, them big bobbins at top we put one in and your empty one out. Well when you are working together you have to help one another to do that. That photograph you took of me and Tommy putting bobbins in together? That’s what happens all day.
Aye, creeling, aye.
R – Creeling, you have to go and help one another because you are on piece work, you've to keep them mules going to get your weight off to make your wage.
That's it aye..
R - Then if you don’t work together, if one's pulling against the other you stop on your own half and you don’t go over and then he has to do it all himself, and it's taking him a bit longer.
(200)
Yes. He’s got more down time.
R – He’s got more .. yes. Then you start bickering at one another and same with doffing off. If you doffed all your cops off before him and he has some left on, normally you go down and help him to take them off for him and he is doing sommat on this other mule on the back of it. But if you are falling out with one another you don’t go down You see, job's stopped. That’s a waste of time.
Yea. And of course you are working as a pair, your weight's calculated on the pair of mules, not just calculated yours on one side and his on the other, yes?
R - Wage is split fifty fifty. If you are working hard and he in not working hard, he is getting half the wage the same as you are getting half, but you are working twice as hard for your money you see? And that’s what it boils down to. And he is not pulling his weight and you are doing your share.
Tell me sommat Jim, is that a good way of working, do you like that way of working?
R - What, working together?
Yes.
R- Oh yes certainly. Oh yes, it makes you happy at your work. You are a lot more contented working together.
Yes. Like, you'd rather have it like that than paddle your own canoe?
R - Oh yes. Because you might get so you are working on your half and your half might be a little bit shorter, like same as a couple of bobbins shorter on your half than your mate’s half. He might be a little bit longer you see and he’ll have more pirns to take off and vice versa. And so you go down and help him out. But if you're stuck on your own half and took your own off, then you'd be waiting for him taking them off you see, and it takes a lot longer. Yes, it's not the same when you look after your own half.
That’s it.
(250)
R - And then again, you might be a better spinner than he is you see. He might not be as quick as you are. You see there's a lot of things balanced against it you know but if you are working together, then one makes up for another.
Well that’s what life's all about isn't it, working together?
R- Well it is yes. You might be quicker putting a bobbin in, but your mate might be quicker at taking cops off you see, so it evens itself up.
Yes. And as long as he is pulling, as long as he is a worker…
R - As long an he is pulling the same as you are pulling, then you're both getting fifty fifty, you are dividing your wage, when you are satisfied at the end of the week you know if you have earned it.
Aye, that's good is that.
R- But if he is not pulling his weight, and he is getting half of the wage and you know damn well he hasn't earned it, and like you know you are getting the thick end of the wedge you know?
Yes. I have watched the way you and Tommy work together and I must say I have been impressed by the fact that there is no shilly shallying about. The thing that's impressed me is that there’s been odd times, say when you have been creeling and just for arguments sake, Tommy has had a bad bobbin in or sommat, there’s been one or two ends going down at the other side and he's got to stop there to keep them ends up, I've never once seen you look over your shoulder as if to say “Where the hell is he?” Because you know don’t you?
R- Well, I know what he is doing, I know he is because I have seen that bobbin, I have seen them ends come down you see. And I just know what he is doing.
Yes. And you know that if he wasn’t doing that he’d be with you. You know he’d be there.
(10 min)(300)
R- Yes. But when you work together that long you just know what one another is doing if you work together properly. And yet some of them spinners what work there at our place they haven’t been brought up like that, they have been brought up to look after their own half, you see.
Aye, yes.
R- They’ll go and help one another with bobbins like we do but they don't rush about the same, they just take their time and look after their own half. They don’t bother about his mate on the other side and they just carry on all day like that.
Yes. One other thing that struck me, which in one of the reasons why I did the pictures of you and Tommy, is that what I don*t know about mule spinning would fill large volumes and I am doing my best to find out. But it struck me when I went in there that, I am used to going and looking at people working, and I am used to weighing things up - and it seemed to me that you had been getting as much weight off your mules as anybody else there. Would that be about right?
R- We had to, we were about top weight us yes for them type of mules as we're on.
That's it yes. I went for the way you're working. It impressed me the way you and Tommy work together. Anyway, now, before we start I don’t want you getting your head so big you can't go through the door.
R - Oh it’ll come off will that door, I can pull it off.
Oh, will the door come off? Oh that’s all right. Hold on. Now then, just as you and Tommy have to work together, everybody else has to work together. Now, in that room with you where you're working there are two sets of mules so there are four spinners, two pairs of spinners and also there are other people working in that room all the time. Now you tell me who they are. You know, you have other people in the room.
R- Yes, the other two spinners are Tommy and Keith. We have one tuber.
Yes. Now is a tuber the same an they used to call a doffer? I’ve heard them calling them doffers you know in the old days.
R – No, a tuber isn't a doffer, no.
Now you tell me this, you tell me what the system is.
R- Well a tuber just sorts tubes out, puts them in boxes and puts them on your mule, but a doffer, I think that's in fine spinning I think is a doffer. It's not in shoddy.
Yes. I’ll tell you where they did use to have doffers, they used to have them in the old days, they used to have them on ring spinning, and they were usually children.
R- Yes. I have heard of that, children doing it.
Yes, that spinner would have had so many doffers. Now in the old days on mule spinning, on fine spinning they used to have piecers and all.
(350)
Didn’t they? Do you know about that, they used to have piecers who did nothing else, well you started off as one, that way didn't you?
R - Well that’s how I originally started of as, a piecer.
Yes, doing nothing but piece. Yes well, like being a labourer.
R- Yes. And we used to get paid us wages off the spinners.
Yes, now that’s something I meant to ask you.
R – Yes well our wage didn't come out of the office. It was paid by the spinners. And the harder you worked and the more wage you got.
Good lad Jim. I’d forgotten that.
R- Now the spinners wages was paid out of the office. With the weight they got off, the more weight and the harder you worked, the more weight the spinners got off they used to pay you out of their wage.
That’s it. The name of the game was keeping them mules running.
R- Keeping them mules going you see. Until eventually it got scrapped did that and then they started paying them [the piecers] out of the office. I don’t know how it came about but that’s what happened you know.
Yes, and then of course they quietly started to do away with piecers.
R- They did yes, you had to run the pair on your own, two spinners which were damned hard work, 1400 spindles I had it on my own and it were hard work to do all the doffing and tubing yourself. But when you have a piecer and a good piecer then you know you could get them on quick and you’re away.
Yes. Aye that’s it.
R- Aye you could earn a good wage if you had a good piecer on. And we used to, I’ll tell you what we used to do, and all the spinners in my room. They used to pay the piecer happen about half a crown extra every week to try and get more weight off than the next pair. They used to say "”Right, we’ll set off at Monday, we'll see if we can get so much weight off this week. We'll see if we can beat that next pair. Now then, if we get it off, we'll give you an extra half a crown.”
Aye.
R- Well, next pair would have a piecer on. They'd say “Right, we'll try and beat you then!” They'd try you see and beat us. It were like a competition more or less.
Yes that’s it aye.
R- But you know, it all added to the day passing on quick and what have you. You know it were some interest.
(400)(15 min)
Aye of course it did, yes. Now in circumstances like that, I mean we are talking about Goodshawfold Manufacturing now, I can't get down there, running on the engine. When the engine started up in the morning, as soon as ever that shafting got so that it was going at the right speed that mule'd be in gear, I know.
R- Yes. Well, because everybody were there beforehand and oiled up and they were stood there at the mule you see, they used to be waiting for it turning. And as soon as it gathered up speed, then the rods were in. But they had to he careful an all, the mules haven’t to start at once.
That’s it aye.
R- You see you got them all coming on to the back, and the weight all on to the driving belt then your engine would go down. So you had to set on one mule at a time you see until it got going. But if everybody set on at once that were it, your engine used to go down, you know. Because there's a lot of weight in mules and when they all come up the back and they are driving all together, some weight on.
[There were many advantages in running on the engine in terms of timekeeping and prompt starting but what Jim is describing is a circumstance which didn’t occur in weaving sheds because the individual units were small. With large machines like mules you had to let the governor have enough time to open the steam valves on the engine to keep the speed up. In a workshop on day wages driven by one engine it was a common trick to throw all the machines in gear at the same time thus stopping the engine and gaining a bit of leisure time off the employer. In the spinning mill on piece rates it was not in the workers interests.]
Yes. That’s it aye. When you say they come on to the back, you mean when they are right back and ...
R- Aye, they are right out on the back on the stops.
And spinning, yes.
R- Yes well, that’s put all the twist in has that when it gets on the back, and it comes on to your stop at the back, before it backs off and goes in again. Your twist's already in, it's gone in then, it's ready for backing off and going on to the cop then.
Yes, that’s it aye. Aye it's spinning as it's coming back isn't it, it's put its twist in and it's coming back.
R – It’s put its twist in and it's coming out.
Yes, as it's coming out. Aye that's it.
R- As it start from the rollers it starts putting twist in but about a quarter of the way out it changes does your twist strap. There's a first speed, it starts on your loose pulley, it comes on to your first speed then on to your second speed then back on to your loose pulley. But when it came on to the first speed, then it's not putting much twist in it's soft. But as soon as ever it goes over on to the third speed then you have got your drive then, it's driving it full belt then, it's putting it in then.
Yes that’s it. Now, you can see that when they are running, you can hear it anyway can't you?
R- Yes you can hear it and you can see the stuff when the sun in shining, you know, flying off the spindle, aye it is. And then it’s put it in then and then when it’s backed off it starts putting on to your cop then.
(450)
Yes that’s it. Right now, let's start off, let's, we'll just go through a day's work then. Now you get there in the morning. Your mule'll be like any other piece of machinery there are things that you’ll have to do for that mule before you start going in the morning if you are going to do a good job. How about oiling the mule?
R – Well, tonight when I came out we set a mule up, what you call set a mule up for doff. Now that’ll have to be done in the morning, I shall be there at seven o'clock in the morning. I should take then all off, my mate Tommy, he’ll be there at a quarter to seven, he is there every morning at a quarter to seven. Now we'll take all the cops off, put all the pirns on and press them all down, set the motor on and run it in so that’s done for about ten past seven. Now then I’ll get all my oilers all in a line for oiling up. You see they all run up like on a shaft, you see you put them, all your oils together, loose pulley, driving pulley, they have all got holes in for oiling. Put them all in a line and then your oil runs down through the holes, down the shaft see, and you won’t get any seizing up or owt like that. And that’s to be done every morning and yet some spinners don’t, they don't bother with it you see, they don’t oil up. But that, to me, should be done every morning. Oil your loose pulleys, ‘cause if you don’t then they get red hot and start scriking [dialect for crying or screaming] or whatever. But that's to be done every morning, oil the spindles where the pirns fit, that’s to be done every morning but yet a lot of spinners don't touch them. But if you are going to be, if you are a proper spinner and been taught the proper way then you’ll do all them things automatically you see?
Yes you do, yes.
(20 min)(475)
R - Which I do every morning.
Yes. Just the same as running the engine. Now go on.
R- Yes. Now then, we oil up then ready for starting. So push those rods on which is electric now, with the motor, then we get going.
What time do you reckon to start at, half past seven?
R- We start at half past seven, yes, dead on. And we are both ready at the mules, ready for setting on, And away we go.
In that room, is it the same motor that drives both.
R - It's one big motor what drives both pair.
Yes, both pair.
R – Yes, they are both driven by belts, driving belts, now.
Yes, that's it, off the shafting yes.
R- Shafting, yes.
(500)
And once you have set on, I mean it’s the process which we are going to describe with the photograph. It’s the process of spinning right the way through the day.
R – Yes, spinning, and tenting and what have you.
You don't have any breakfast time, now, do you?
R - We have a, no, we have a lunch. Have a lunch, me and Tom have a lunch about eight o’clock, we brew up and have a couple of sandwiches.
Yes. Do you stop the mules?
R- No, we eat with it running all the time, we don’t have a break.
That’s it. And then of course you stop at dinner time.
R- We stop at twelve o'clock then.
Yes, till one?
R - Until five to one. And then we ran on then, and instead of stopping at half past four we stop at twenty five past four. That came into force through bus times you see, to go and catch certain buses. So that we set on at five to one instead of one and finish at twenty five past four. So you are still working all your hours you know.
Yes. And how often, one of the things that a lot of people can’t understand nowadays, I mean if anybody looks at the dates on those mules, I think those of yours are 1903 aren’t they? Them mules of yours? I think the date on those …
R- Yes, they're, one of mine, one of my mules is 1901 and the other's 1903. So I don't know whether they are actually the proper plates what’s on you know, but them’s the two dates on our pair.
Yes that’s it. Anyway, let's put it this way, those frames are nearly eight years old.
R- Well yes they are.
Now of course the thing is that nowadays a piece of machinery is something that wears out every five years isn’t it. So do you ever run into any problems with the fact that they are old machines? You know, it is old machinery.
R- Yes there is a lot of problems, but this is solved by what does break they get them welded you see. There are only certain places where they break but they have a lot of spares, from what they bought when other factories have shut down. They’ve bought the mules and stored them away you see and the major break downs, which is your pulleys, your rim pulley or carriage pulley, if them break then you have to take all your stock out and replace it with another one which they have plenty of spares for you see.
I think if I remember rightly have I seen a spare drive shaft hung at the back of your mule?
R- Yes. Well, that's not a drive shaft, that's a scroll shaft. It’s what your scroll ropes go on. That's at the back of the mule is that. Now that’s hung up at the back, but that’s only hung up there to stretch them ropes you see?
Aye, I see. Those are new.
R- They are new ropes what want stretching so he's got that scroll, the heavy scroll and hung it up on to the ropes just to stretch them. It's got to stretch.
Aye, quietly stretch them.
R- But once over you know, once of a day, new ropes used to be stretched tight between them columns in between the mules. Rim band ropes or owt like that, we used to pull them round, right tight, so as you could stretch them, and you used to leave them there for a fortnight or three weeks, and just leave them to stretch them.
Yes. Well, up on the top floor, during the Spring holidays this year they put some new ropes on the electric motor. Kenyons came from Ashton. And they stretched those ropes with a block and tackle between the cast iron pillars. And they did give them some stick. They did give then some stick, they put some stretch into them, they took some of the stretch out of them rather before they spliced them.
R- Yes. That’s right yes.
And they used to do that when they did the ropes on the engine at Bancroft. When I was at Bancroft we used to stretch them. But how often do you get like as a rim band do you call them don’t you, or a carriage rope, how often do you get one of them breaking?
R - Well a rim band, oh you can have a rim band on for I bet two years, well over two years a good one. It might want piecing, it might just start fraying and you piece it. When you put a new rim band on at first it stretches a heck of a lot you see? You keep tightening it up and it keeps stretching and stretching and he has to keep coming back and piecing it. And every time he takes that rim band off to piece it he lets that rim band wheel in, to the full stretch you see. And he puts the rope on and then as it's running again and it's stretching a bit more you have to tighten it a bit more. Now it gets to a certain point where it doesn't stretch no more, and that’s right then. And it might last you two years, it might last you three.
Yes. When you say piece it up, that's splicing it?
R - That's splicing it.
(600)(25 min)
And who splices it?
R- The overlooker does that.
And have you ever had one break on you?
R- Oh yes, it’ll just snap and then you have a sawney.
And then you have a sawney.
R - I told you didn’t I, that were it then. You have a sawney,
That’s it aye. And then overlooker, we have a picture of the overlooker in the book.
R - He came in then.
He comes in and…
R - He splices it yes.
He splices it up. Have you ever been at a place where the spinners have spliced their own ropes?
R- I have been to Rhodes and Sons Limited in Crawshawbooth. They had an
overlooker there what just did major breakdowns, that were your headstock. But you had to do your own ropes, and piece your own straps. You know, your twist strap, your carriage strap would break. All them like, he didn’t do them. And you had to joint them all yourself. But all the places I have been to apart from that they have had overlookers so I've never had to do them you see?
That’s it aye. Because you knows like reckoning up what the stretch is in ropes and splicing them and putting them on… It’s all right, but I used to have to slice a few for the lubricators and what not but it's a job on its own is spicing ropes.
R- Yes, I think it is yes. I means everybody can't do it, it's a thing as you have to learn over the years you know and pick it up…
1 like watching splicers working.
R- Yes, I do.
That lad that did them ropes up in the top room, he came and did some ropes on my engine for me over at Bancroft and by God he is good. And, you know you can watch him do it and then you can try and do it yourself you know. And it flies into place when he is doing it. And when he's finished if he wants to he can hide all the ends and when you have rubbed some graphite and tallow over it, you can’t tell where the joint is.
R - No. Oh you can whenever our overlooker does it, there's a lot of loose ends on aye.
Well he [Kenyon’s man] leaves a fair bit of loose, because he says that splices last longer if there in a bit of loose on them.
R Yes, that’s right yes.
He said because that end, he said that if you leave it under the other, he said it won’t be long before it works its way around and pops out from the other side. So he says you are better off leaving a bit loose because I played hell with him once. I said “What have you left all them ends hanging out for?” Do you know, they were stuck out about half an inch. He says “Oh, the splice’ll last longer like that.” One of the things, I don’t think it’ll apply so much on mules, but one of the things that we used to find on engines were that if you could get a rope rolling when it was working [it lasted longer] But a lot of your ropes on the mules as far as I can see, are fastened at both ends aren't they? You know, they are fastened, they are fastened ...
(650)
R- They are fast, they are fastened, they are knotted at both ends. They are knotted on your scroll shaft at the back and they are also knotted on your framework at the front.
That’s it, aye.
R - You see. And they go down, they go round on your worm at the back end.
That’s it aye. So you don’t just get the same thing, but we used to get, we always used to say that ropes lasted longer if they started rolling.
R- Yes, I know what you mean.
You know, instead of staying in the same place, if they started rolling, so as they got polished all over. But of course, that doesn't apply to mules because…
R – No it doesn’t.
Now tell me sommat, just out of curiosity. Have you ever read that book on mules, Catlow's book 'The Spinning Mule’.
R - No.
I'll get hold of a copy for you, I think it’ll interest you. I’ll get hold of a copy for you. It's the standard book an the spinning mule, it's a great book, I'll get hold of a copy of that for you, that’s a promise. Next time I am up at Lancaster, I know they have it there, I'll get it.
R – Well, you know my address, you can send it me here, you know?
I’ll call in, what are you talking about? Now, what I was going to say there, wait a minute, I was going on about that book. Yes, now which do you get paid most for, if you are on a finer count do you get paid more for your eights?
R- Oh yes. You see there's different rates of pay but there’s only two really. You get paid a bit extra for fives, that’s a thicker, coarser count so you're doing a lot more doffing.
Yes that’s it.
R- Your doffing's coming up a lot quicker than when you are on sevens because it's a thicker count, a lot coarser and then they are only taking about three quarters of an hour to doff. So then you are doing more doffing, so you get that little bit extra for the work as you are doing.
So how about, I would have thought it would have been the other way around that the finer the count the more you would have got paid for your weight, because it’d take more spinning like won’t it.
R- Yes I know, but when I used to work at Dunnockshaw, we used to run nines and then it took at least two hours for your cop to fill up which is a lot of running time on a mule. But on fives, at three quarters of an hour that mule’s stopped again you see. It's only running three quarters of an hour and it's stopped, you have to doff off again in another three quarters of an hour. But if your mule's running two hours you are only doing two doffs in the morning.
You see, what I am getting at though, if you were getting paid on weight, the more often you doff, the more weight you are getting off so the more money you'd be getting anyway.
(700)(30 min)
R - Ah but you are not, not off the clock.
I see, you are paid on the clock?
R - You are, we are paid off the clock. As long an them mules'll keep running your clock's going round, then you are getting paid. But you know… Years ago we used to get paid by the weight of the cop.
Ah, now, I thought you were still paid that way.
R - Oh no, when you were, we used to doff into them tins then and you used to put it on the scale then and weigh it.
Yes
R- They’d take the weight of the tin off you know.
The tare of the tin, they'd weigh the amount of cops you had in.
R - Then you got paid off that then.
Where's the clock on the mule, then?
R – It’s underneath. It runs off your back shaft.
Now. Well. I have got to have a picture of that.
R - You, well, it's the clock underneath and it's that’s what you call a hankage clock, you see. And it goes right slow and it doesn't move for, I think, I am not sure whether it’s about sixty draws your mule has to do before it moves a little bit. It doesn't move like an ordinary thing on it.
No. It’s like a pick clock, it's like pick clock how it moves.
R – Yes. It has to do so many draws before it moves you see?
That's it yes.
R - And then you reckon it up
So in actual fact you are paid very much like a weaver. You are paid …
R - Just the same.
You are paid on the clock.
R – Yes well, they have clocks on the looms haven't they?
Yes, but instead of being picks it's draws.
R - It's draws, it's what they call, they're Hankage draws. But you can’t see the clock, it's underneath, and it's run off your back shaft which is going round when your mule's coming out and going in you see? That back shaft's going all the time, round and round.
Aye. I bet a pound that clock's made by Orme’s at Oldham because they are the ones that make pick clocks and all. I have one. Next time I come down you must show me that, we’ll have to have a look at that.
R- Yes. It's right against the headstock, you can see it, you can reach over, you can look at it.
Well, we'll get in to have a look at it. We'll have to have a picture of that for the back of the book, aye.
R- Yes, the clock. But they have some, Arnold has some in the cabin what's not on the mule. It’s just an ordinary clock you know?
Yes. Ah well, that’s explained that to me then because I couldn’t understand why you got paid a better rate, you know, for taking less weight off ... because really the thicker you, the thicker you were on…
R - The thicker your count, the more weight.
Now, how thick do you go up to? What's the thickest you have ever spun?
R - Fours.
Fours. That is getting thick isn’t it?
R - They are the thickest, fours. They run fours at our place. That mule like next to ours what Tommy is on, they were on fours, they are on fours now, they’re running fours now yes.
(750)
Aye. Yes, are they putting it on tube?
R – It’s on welsh hat, on metal pirn.
Oh well, Metal pirns.
R - It's going straight to the weaver.
Aye. Now that’s the thing about the stuff that you are spinning there, that's something I didn't realise, it was done, it's going straight on to Northrop pirn to go down to the looms.
R- To go down to the loom, it’s going straight to the loom, it’s not being rewound.
So that's got to be good spinning.
R - Oh yes. It’s got to be first class has that. You can get away with it if you're rewinding it because the rewinder, if there's going to be any breaks, they take them out. He's has had his breaks, they take them out you see. They can rectify it.
That’s it aye. Of course that's one of the things about rewound weft. That was when rewound weft came in, when they went on to more looms because they had to do something to make it better for the weavers to keep the weavers going. And that was where rewound weft come in. In fact at Bancroft we not only used to rewind it on to the pirn, we used to wind it from ring tube on to cone.
R – Yes.
And then from cone on to pirn because that way you give the winder a better chance of getting a lot of weight off, and it also made sure that that yarn was all right before it got to the winder even.
R – Yes. They do it at Grane Road now. The cones come in, well they call them cheeses.
Aye, cheeses and cones aye.
R - Cheeses or cones, 1 don’t know.
The same thing.
R- Now then, they come in and they rewind it off the cone on to metal pirn for to go into the weaving shed.
Yes, that’s it.
R- But they are a lot finer counts, they're tens and twelves, things like that, right fine stuff.
Yes. You see that's another thing that strikes me round here you see. You refer to tens and twelves as being fine counts. Well in Barlick we talk about 44s and 60s as being fine and I have seen mule twist that was spun commercially at one time, it was regularly spun in Oldham, that was 400's count. Now, when you think about that, you know, like it used to take a fortnight between doffs. I know the fellow that showed it me was at Burnley Technical College and he said it used to take them a fortnight to doff, It took a fortnight before they could doff. Just imagine that!
R - Grand,
Fortnight. And next time I come down I’ll bring you one. I had hold of them today and I meant to bring you one. I'll bring you one of them cops, it’s Egyptian twist, it's mule twist, it's 44's on paper bottom. And, you can just take that down, just show em it, just show ‘em and say he was just telling me this is some right twist.
R - Have they, has somebody shown you how to tell how much twist there is in your stuff, off a cop? You just get hold of your cop and you pull your end off like that, and then you put them together like that. Then when your end hangs down, and it twists round.
No. You’ll have to show me that.
(800)
R- That's your test that to see the strength of your stuff, you see? And it'll curl round, it’ll twist round will your stuff. If you haven't enough twist in it then it'll only do a lazy turn. But if you pull it apart and like it goes so, then your stuff is strong enough. They did have this for the workers regular, come and test it. Roy Tomlinson the manager, he comes in sometimes, and he'll get a cop and he’ll go ... and then he'll go .. and then he’ll twist it and then he’ll go away then, and it it's not as it should be he'll go to Arnold, the overlooker. Then he’ll go and test it, you now, on a testing machine, they’ve a machine for testing it.
Aye, that's it, yes.
R – It’s a wheel. Put the cop on, you wind it and the thing that goes round, certain pressure. Then when the yarn breaks it's stopped at that number, you see?
Aye. But it's like Jim Pollard, our weaving manager, I think you'd enjoy talking to Jim. It’s like he says, that tensile strength means nothing on its own.
R- Oh no.
Because, that's one of the things, we had many a laugh about Johnsons at Earby. They have got a lot of technical men on, and the only thing that's being tested for is tensile strength. They are buying yarn on tensile strength. If it's got a good tensile strength they say it’s good yarn. But I never realised it were possible, but Jim’s pointed it out to me, that it's possible to have lousy yarn that's right strong.
R- Yes. I know it is, yes.
But he says that doesn't mean to say it’s going to weave right.
R- No, but it probably gives you a false impression does that.
Aye, he says it’s nowt to do with how it's going to weave. And he goes lyrical about yarn does Jim. He’ll take some, you know, and tease it apart and look at it, and tell you what’s in it. Well, in fact, Jim is an amazing bloke, I've seen him with little samples of cloth that people have sent to see whether we could weave it and they've sent it to Courtaulds for testing and they have sent it back and said the sample's too small, they can’t do it. And Jim has set to, in a corner of the office with a pin stuck in the end of a bit of wood and a magnifying glass and he’s pulled it to bits, and he has told them just what the construction of it is and measured it up and told them what it is and we have gone and woven it and it's been all right. Which is the difference between somebody that knows and somebody that doesn’t you see. But you see, he is like you, he spent 40 years in the business, he knows it inside out. He knows every bloody trick. And God he could tell good yarn.
R – It’s all that what you learn over the years, it’s experience.
That's it, yes. But we never had any bother with Whitaker’s yarn, we never had any trouble with their yarn, no trouble at all.
R - Oh it's good. It’s good stuff.
And yet some of them, oh I’ve seen then sending weft back by the skipful. And I have seen them sending stuff back where you couldn't wind it, we couldn't even wind it off cheeses, it wouldn’t even wind off cheeses, we had slubs coming through and soft shops you know, it weren't spun, it just weren't spun. It’s just rubbish, that’s all it is.
(850)(40 min)
R – No. It's rubbish. Rubbish.
And I mean you know yourself, it’s got to be right if you are going to weave good cloth it's got to be right. And some of the cloth what we wove at Bancroft was very good cloth. I'm not sure what that were, I think it went for raising that stuff that we used yours for, but it went in, it was eights condenser and it went in. I think it were about a 20s or 30s warp. I know, I tell you what it were good for, it were good for dish cloths, it didn't half soak up.
R - They make dish cloths at our place, well at Flash. All the bad weft what we take out, bad cops, we send them down to be rewound and then into cheeses and then they send them over to the Flash and they make mop rags out of them, you know?
Aye that's it aye. Best thing they could do with them and all. Anyway thank you very much again and I’ll stop this now and then we’ll have a couple of tapes on the pictures. All right Jim?
SCG/12 July 2003
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