THIS TAPE HAS BEEN RECORDED ON APRIL 11TH 1980 IN THE WRAPPER ROOM AT SPRING VALE MILL, CHARLES LANE, HASLINGDEN. THE INFORMANT IS GLENYS KIRBY, CONDENSER MINDER. THE INTERVIEWER IS MARY HUNTER.
On the stand that you’ve got at the front of the card there seems to be space for three bobbins, one that’s in, the empty one and you've got one missing, one empty there. Why don’t you put a second empty one there?
R- Well you can do, sometimes at odd times I do but mostly I don’t bother you know. I leave an empty space on the top stand so that I can look up the alley and if there’s any ends broke I can see them without having to actually keep walking up and down. But when I’m ready for taking the full bobbin out I have to move it on to the lower stand so that when I take the bobbin out I can just put it on the top stand and drop the empty one in from the second stand, the bottom stand.
And I presume if you put the full bobbin on the top it’s easier lifting on to your shoulder then?
R – Yes. But you couldn’t put the full bobbin on the first stand because your empty one sort of wouldn’t drop in properly you know.
(50)
And do you have to stop the machine when you…
R – No. The machines are set on at half past seven in the morning, all of them and they don’t stop again unless they break down or something till we knock off for dinner time at twelve o'clock. And then they’re set on again at one o’clock and they don’t stop again till we're ready for going home at half past four.
And do you set then on, or do the grinders set them on?
R- The grinders set them on yes.
And when you say grinders that includes presumably the carding overlooker, I mean do you call the carding overlooker the grinder?
R – No, we call him the carder, our boss you know, he's called the carder and then there’s another man, the under-carder, they repair the machines if they break down and they are in charge of that room. If there is any problems you go and see him.
So they are like a tackler in a weaving shed are they?
R- Yes. Like they are our boss you know, the one that we go to first with any problems, who wants to go earlier if we want some time off or something.
(100)
Right, that’s that isn’t it. I think?
R- Yes.
Right. Picture 39.02.
R- This one’s where I am just going to take a full bobbin. I've moved the empty bobbin out of the lower stand and I’m just going to take the full one out and put it on the upper stand.
How do you tell when a bobbin's full?
R- Well, when the stuff reaches these things on the end of the bobbins, they're called flanges. And when the stuff reaches the top of those flanges they’re full you know and we take them out.
What happens if one goes over?
R – Well, that’s a mess. Because we have to run it all back off till it’s level you know. Because if it runs over the top it won’t run on the mules, the two side ends will keep breaking down all the time.
And have you ever done that?
R – Once or twice. Not usually you know because we're watching them all the time but if we are busy… I’ve been busy an odd time doing something else and I’ve messed it up. No, it’s not done very often.
So you keep quiet when that happens.
R – Yes, I just run it off.
Is that it? I think it is. Picture 39.02.
R - And this one shows just where I’m taking the bobbin out to put it on the top stand again and the bottom one is ready to drop in
So you don’t actually break the ends?
(5 min)(150)
R- Not at that stage. Not till I've put the bobbin on to the top stand and drop the empty one in, then I break them and throw the ends over onto the empty bobbin so as it starts running again.
And can you hold on to it fairly well just by holding the flanges like that?
R - Oh yes. Just slip it onto the top stand and then it's .. I don't touch that again till 1 take it off to put on the racks.
So it looks as if you’ve run a little bit over the .. what did you call that one? The bobbin…
R - The big wooden rollers, yes.
The wooden rollers at the front, you run it over there a bit, you run it over there?
R – Yes. Well, if you took them straight up you see they'd all break. Because it's so fine you’ve got to allow a little so that you can put them up on this top stand and they don’t break.
Right. So there you are then. In 39.04 ...
R - This is where I've already put the bobbin on the top stand and I’m ready for dropping the empty one in, and you can see the ends are all still…
Coming through.
(200)
R- Coming through, still unbroken. And that’s me friend that works in the same alley as me, Lilly, in the background ready for putting a bobbin up on the rack.
Holding the full one. Yes. What have you got between the empty bobbins on that? You’ve got them all stacked up. It looks as if you've got something in between.
R- No I haven’t. You see you can't, you can't stack them all the same way. You stack eight one way and then eight lengthways and then another eight crossways.
So it sounds then as if the width of the flange times eight is the length of a bobbin.
R – Yes.
Oh I see right. So let’s see what you're doing in 39.05.
R - Now this is where I've put the bobbin on the top stand and dropped the empty one in and I'm breaking the ends off ready to throw over the empty bobbin and start up again.
The loops of ends that you’ve got over this end bobbin .. do they catch up with themselves?
R - Oh yes. If any do slip down a bit you just pull them, pull them through the guide wires and they're all right.
It looks as if you have in fact lost one.
R – Yes I have, it’s the end one.
Right at this end.
R- Yes, but that’s nothing.
And what about in the middle, have you lost one in the middle there as well?
R - No that’s running down a bit, but they catch up.
(250)
Oh I see. The tension's loose on that one. Yes I see, it looks as if Lilly’s still waiting to put a bobbin on.
R - Still waiting.
Picture 39.06. You've broken the ends.
R- Yes and I’ve thrown them over onto the empty bobbin, and now that’s ready for filling up again.
So when you throw it over does that catch up then with all these other loose ones hanging over the end? You gather them up and throw them in?
R- Yes.
And then what do you do with the top one, the top bobbin?
R- The full bobbin? I roll all the ends together in between me hands and stick them into one of those spaces in the bobbin so that when they go upstairs the spinner just pulls them out and they’ll all come out together ready to go straight into the mule.
(10 min)
And presumably if you didn’t do that very well he’s got to rub some off?
R- Yes, it’d be a mess you know. You've got to make sure they’re just right.
And you can see there that you’ve, on this end thread, you’ve picked it up and guided it through and it’s now pulling itself up.
R – Yes. It’s, I made a bit of a mess of that one actually when I were doing it you know. Usually you can just throw them straight over and they are all straight you know.
Well, it’s just as well to show the world that it doesn't always happen perfectly.
R- Oh no.
Picture 39.07.
R- Well, you can see all the ends have caught up, the bobbin’s all straight and I’ve taken the full one off the top stand and I’m carrying it down to put it on the rack.
(300)
Now that’s it. We’ll have a little bit of a queue because Lilly’s still waiting.
R- Yes she is. Well, if there isn’t room I just stand the bobbin up on its end against the rack ready to be put on.
So all is well by the look of things. In fact looking up the alley there’s quite a few that are just…
R- I’ve changed quite a few, yes.
Picture 39.08. Now there is a picture for you.
R- Well, this is what I call me box where I keep me pots and these two steel things and me pikers what I use for piking cotton off me empty bobbins. A can off pop, me bag, me shoes.
And lots of rags by the looks of it.
R- Well this is what we use for cleaning the machines, wiping the machines over, on a Friday.
And you collect that up from wherever you can? Or do you get supplied.
R- No, we get supplied. You can see on here where, how I stack the bobbins, lengthways and across.
And there is obviously just in this left hand corner the end .. is it called the bobbin?
R- The wooden rollers yes.
The wooden rollers and there is some waste on the bottom isn’t there.
R- Yes, that’s where some ends have been broken down, the waste all drops on to the floor. Well we pick that up.
What are these pikers made from?
R- Well, those two on my box are made from spindles that they use, the spinners use for making the cops for the weavers.
And have you had to get those yourself?
R – No, we get those [given].
And it looks as if just the top of the pirn [spindle actually] is just bent over.
R- It’s all been thinned out yes and it’s bent over and where it comes over there, it’s been sharpened, has a sharp point on so that {it hooks into the waste and pulls it off the bobbin]
{I’ve omitted some dialogue here because they are at cross purposes]
So that’s proof that it was a summer’s day, drinking your Coke. I think that’s it. Picture 39.09.
R- This is where I’m stood against me box with the empty bobbins that have been taken off the rack and where I’m piking, you can see I’m piking the waste off the bobbins.
Yes you’ve got a bale (?) stuck on there haven't you?
R- Yes. You see you have three grooves, three at the bottom. Well, you can start others on top of these till you get eight or nine on.
And you can pike all eight at once then can you?
R – Oh yes.
You can still get up them?
R – I usually do them as I put them on the box you know so that the ones underneath are already done before I put any more on top.
It's very much a team business isn’t it. I mean if the people from the devil room didn’t come and collect that waste in that trolley then that would get full and you couldn't pike any more ...
R - Yes.
And if the grinders didn’t come and put your laps on the back the card would be waiting, stopped.
(15 min)(400)
R- Stopped, it would yes.
And if the mule spinners didn’t take the bobbins off the rack at the top, then you wouldn’t have any space to put the full bobbins back up would you?
R- No.
So everybody relies on ...
R - Everybody relies on someone else you know.
And I suppose if that someone doesn’t get on well with you, you could scupper the boat for them by not sort of cooperating with everybody.
R - Oh you could yes. See like me and Lilly that I work with, we have to work together you know. Because if we want a break I watch her machines as well as me own while she goes out and she watches mine while I go out. Otherwise we couldn't get a break you know.
Is twelve the normal number to be looking after?
R- Well it just depends. Over the other side of the card room they look after fifteen over there, which I think it’s a lot really you know when you have all your own piking to do as well. If you'd not got to pike the bobbins that wouldn't be too bad, fifteen really you know. But when you’ve all your own piking and cleaning and the tidying up to do as well it’s quite a lot is that really. I wouldn’t call it an easy job, I think it is hard work really you know.
So it’s usual for women to be doing it?
R- Oh yes it's a woman’s job on these single cards. Some places they have cards with double bobbins on, two bobbins, or…
Oh I see.
R- I think there are some with three bobbins on. Well, men usually run them you know because they look after the backs as well at some places, not here anyway.
(450)
Picture 39.10.
R- This one’s where I’m brushing the fluff off the side of the cards, making them clean you know, brushing the wooden covers as well.
What are you brushing it with?
R- Hand brush. It’s Friday.
And presumably you do that cleaning just when you have a spare minute or two.
R- Yes. Usually though I start mine, brush them all down, do them all together after dinner as soon as I get back at one o’clock. Take the fly out from underneath the cards and then brush them all down, covers and sides.
That’s all supposing that before dinner everything was ...
R- Was all right .. You know I try and leave meself straight so that when I do come back at one o'clock I can just start brushing down you know.
So I think you said it was an hour that a bobbin fills up if you have no problem?
R- About three quarters.
Three quarters of an hour. So if you start at half past seven, you take, what do you call it when you take one off? Is there a special word for it?
R- No. You mean when they're full, when you take them out when they're full? No.
So at quarter past eight, nine o’clock .. or when you have a break in between, don't you sometime?
R - Yes but we're… They carry on, they don't stop.
R - Quarter past eleven.
Quarter past eleven . So that’s right before dinner eh? You’ve just changed over again.
R – Yes.
Ready for a clean start after lunch yes. That works doesn't it? Yes.
R- Pike an awful lot of empties off as well you know, just seems to be…
In between one?
R- Yes.
I was just wondering on that one whether you can see any more clearly the one that’s sucked off but you can't really can you.
(500)(20 min)
R- No, you can just see the pipe there at the side.
Can just see the what?
R- The pipe, there.
Ah, the pipe. Oh yes you can. Do you have to give any special treatment to these leather rubbers?
R- Yes, we put oil on then twice a week. The grinders oil them, we run them all bare so there’s no cotton coming through at all, and they grease, call it greasing those rubbers.
So that they don’t dry up.
R- So that they stay supple, yes.
Do you know what sort of oil it is?
R- Castor oil I think.
But you don’t have to do that.
R- No we don’t do that. That’s the grinders do that. We run them all off ready and they come along and grease them.
I notice on the cylinder’s lids there are numbers?
R- Yes.
Are those used now?
R - Not for anything special really you know. Like if some of them’s running bad or there's something wrong with it I’ll go along to the carder or the under carder and say number 69 is broke or something like that, you know.
Yes. Picture 39.12.
R - This one's where I've finished brushing the cards down and I'm sweeping
Up, sweeping all the fluff out of the alley, so that it's also straight and tidy.
Do you damp it down before you start sweeping?
R – No.
Does it not fly up in the air again?
R – No, it’s not too bad, no.
(550)
You've just started on your bobbin on there to your left, haven’t you?
R – Yes. I’ve just changed it and put it on the rack and started sweeping up. I must have been quick too, it’s only just started on there.
Oh I see, you mean you mast have done a sprint to the bottom
R - Just picked the brush up and started.
Very good. It shows a keen drive.
R - Oh yes.
That’s a fire extinguisher, is it?
R - On that pole? Yes, fire extinguisher.
What about fire in the carding room?
R - Well I've never known there to be a fire. Now the devil hole ...
Ah well.
R – That’s where most of the fires are you know. I've never known there to be one in the card room at all.
Picture 39.13.
R- Well on this one I’m still sweeping up, and I think that card's stopped you know?
Do you?
R - It must be.
Yes I think probably it must have done because it…
R- This one next to it, the end one, they're grinding that, that's one that they’re grinding so that’s stopped.
What’s this very thin pipe, sort of a foot or two up from the cylinders .. ?
R – That’s one of the steam pipes.
One of the heating pipes.
R - One of the heating pipes, yes.
And that’s the other end of the alley that we haven’t seen in fact. Top end.
R - It is yes.
What's on the racks? Well, not racks, what's on the wall at the back?
R - These, these at the back, they’re the fire buckets with the water...
Ah, with sand in?
R – Water. And that machine there next to them, across from them, is the grinding machine where they grind, where they clean the rollers, next to the cards.
(600)(25 min)
How often is the grinding done?
R- Every day, Monday to Thursday, they usually grind two a day.
And so how often does each carding machine get done?
R- Well on an average I should say once a month.
What's that right in the middle of the wall?
R – That’s a red spot to indicate where the fire buckets are.
Oh I see yes.
R- And this here's the hot water geyser. Because just below that there's a sink where we can wash our pots and pans.
And make a quick drink?
R - Not there no, on this one, the hot water geyser here at the side you can yes.
So there in nothing to stop you having a drink during the day out of break time as long as the machines are working?
R- Oh no.
What sort of restrictions are there on here as far as you know, taking a break or going to the toilet or that sort of thing?
R - Well we are supposed to have ten minutes break at morning and ten at the afternoon, but sometimes we have a bit more because like with us watching on for each other we have an agreement you know that we can have a few minutes longer. And if we want to go to the toilet we can just go, I just tell her I’m going to the toilet and she watches on for me while I come back.
And that’s where you have your sneaky cigarette as well is it because you can’t smoke at your work.
R- Yes.
Because that would be a real fire hazard, wouldn't it?
R- Oh it would yes.
So there is a fairly free, relaxed attitude towards that sort of thing is there? I mean there isn’t any counting.. and the looker chasing you saying “Where are you?”
(650)
R- Oh no. That's one of the good things about working here you know. You can’t say they are really strict you know, not like they used to be in the olden days I believe.
Oh yes, you believe right. And picture 39.14 is where I think we stopped. * but coo
R- Yes. Now this is where the grinder is getting ready to grind the card. They’ve taken the bobbin out that was in it and they're running it bare now, running all the ends off, ready to start running it bare yes.
Running it bare, having it empty, getting all the cotton from inside the machine.
R- Yes, and the fronts, and they don’t take the laps off at the back, they just cover them over. They leave them on and just cover them over.
But they must break them, presumably.
R- Yes they are broken. And they’re just getting ready there to start grinding.
One thing that we haven't talked about because perhaps it hasn't been very clear on some of the photographs, but perhaps going back to say 34 will be the best one ... How quickly do those laps move into the carding machine?
R – Very very slow. I think they only change them… If they're very low at the back at the morning they might change them twice in a day. If they’re pretty full they might just change then once. They only move in very slowly.
So presumably the bobbin itself is rotated is it?
R- The lap.
Sorry, the lap yes. The lap is rotated to feed this into the card?
R – Yes, very very slowly.
So two laps are fed into the machine.
R- Yes, double yes.
Yes. And how long does grinding take?
R- You can grind a card in an hour and a half.
And then it’s up but it's the process of taking out all the rollers and putting it back.
R - Clean them all, setting the card up and putting them all back yes.
And while all that’s being done you would have one less card to look after but that doesn’t affect your wage or anything?
(700)(30 min)
R - Oh no. Just like if they've a lot of bobbins upstairs and we have to stop it still doesn’t affect our wages, it just carries on the same you know. If we’re stopped we’ve still jobs to do like piking empty bobbins and cleaning the cards and we always can find something to do you know?
Before we finish I just thought we’d have a look at number 95 which is Glenys. Glenys is busy there doing something ...
R- That's me yes, that’s against the wall, studying.
This is lunch hour is it?
R- This is lunch hour yes. Where we have a game of dominoes when we’ve finished our dinner, for 5p. a game. Where I usually lose anyway! Me studying doesn’t do me a right lot of good really. Sometimes I win but….
Do you? It’s interesting that today, eleventh of April, there aren't many people on that photograph who are still here are there?
R - No there aren't, no. There's one, two, three, four, five of them are gone already. Because as I’ve said earlier we are all being, the mill’s closing you know and we are all being made redundant. Some of them have found jobs elsewhere and the two girls that are sat next to me, they've gone working over at the other mills.
Yes now it’s interesting as in fact they have moved them to another mill and they are not making them redundant. When I say to another mill it’s still part of Whittaker’s isn't it.
R- Yes well they haven’t much redundancy to come, because they’re very young you know .. like they don’t pay redundancy up to eighteen years of age and then from eighteen to twenty one it’s only half a week’s wage. Well both these girls are only twenty two I think so they had hardly anything to come at all, it was a matter of something and nothing you know? So I think he’s found them a job on account of this like.
I believe Pat, is this Maureen?
(750)
R- Ann at the end. Yes.
I don't really know Ann, but I believe Pat was particularly good at her job.
R - Yes she was, very good yes.
I was just wondering if that was perhaps the reason that made them move them as much as their age.
R- Well I don't think that was the main reason you know because she hasn’t gone over there doing the same job that she was doing here. It’s a different job entirely what she’s gone doing you know but she’s a good worker.
Yes. And the gentleman behind you .. and facing this way with the glasses, he is in the card room.
R- He is the under carder, Joe Pilling, and sat next to him, that's Charlie Robinson one of the grinders, he’s finished now, he’s gone working outside, on this motorway 1 think, running errands for the men and brewing up for them and what have you.
It's a shame isn’t it.
R- Yes it’s a shame.
Although this is all brick walls everything .. I was impressed when I first came in how smartly painted everything was.
R- Yes, well they have painters contracted to the firm you know. To do all the painting inside the mills and what not Smith’s painters.
It certainly is sort of clean and kept nice and smart looking. As well as is practical to do in a place that, obviously you are not going to have wallpaper on the wall.
R- No it’s very clean, very clean compared like you said to some of the mills you know.
And do you get food provided for you?
R – We’ve lunch provided, yes. Morning, early morning toast and twelve o’clock a dinner, chips and sometimes potato pies, puddings, roast beef, steak and kidney pie, beef burger. We have a variety but it’s pretty good really you know.
Do you have to pay for that?
R- Oh yes we have to pay for our lunches, and dinners.
But I would guess it must be subsidised a little bit do you think?
R- I’m not sure, it’s a catering firm. It's not Whittaker's own staff now. It used to be but this catering firm took it over. Shaw’s Catering and they…
(800)(35 min)
What, what sort of price do you pay for, say, steak and kidney pie and chips?
R- Thirty, thirty odd pence.
Oh well I’d say that that's probably subsidised.
R - Yes, would you think?
I would think to,
R – Toast, just a slice of toast at morning six pence for one slice you know?
Toast and butter?
R- Yes. If you have two toasts with cheese on that’s nineteen and a half pence.
Well that’s sort of café prices isn’t it but I would say the steak and kidney pie and chips might be a bit subsidised.
R – Yes.
Very good. There must be all sorts of rumours going around and everybody must have their own feelings about it but who do you think or what do you think is to blame for the closing down of this mill directly and the whole declining of the Industry?
R – Well I think a lot of it's the foreign imports but not all of it. I think partly it’s because the mill owners just haven't kept up to date with the machinery for the cloth that these buyers want you know. Like there’s a sale for a lot of this synthetic cloth now. Well you just can't make it on this machinery you know. You see if people don’t move with the times they fall behind and then they’re bound to close, aren't they. But I think that anyway, I think like I said that some of it's due to these foreign imports but not all of it. I think the bosses, the mill owner his self are partly to
blame for not investing in the business you know? I mean all this machinery
that we have here is all old machinery, years old you know. They must have
had a lot of it when the mill opened I think.
That was 1847 wasn't it?
R – Yes. You see you can’t live off it for ever can you. You’ve got to [invest] if you're taking out you’ve got to put back in haven't you.
(850)
And of course here at this mill not only is it all pure cotton, it’s waste cotton isn’t it.
R – Yes.
In other words, as I understand it, it’s the waste that comes from fine cotton spinning, am I right?
R- yes. They make bales here and sell those you see. We buy them to use but we also sell them you know.
When you say bales you mean the cotton fibres that have been blended but not carded, yes?
R - Yes.
Do you know what this is used to make? This spun yarn that goes out from here. Do you know what it’s used to make?
R- It goes over to the other mill at Grane Road to the weavers, and they weave it then into cloth and they make sheets and towels. They’re making towels over there now. I don't know whether they make those out of our yarn you know. In fact I don't think they do, I think they make those on those big German Sulzer looms and they have stuff from Flash Mill for running them I think, big cones. Cones I think. I’m not sure you know.
Paper cones or Welsh Hat do you mean?
R - Not Welsh Hat no. They’re like cardboard you know.
Oh, cheeses are they called?
R - Yes but what wind is used .. I think they re-wind them on to cops, when they go over to Grane Road I think they re-wind them on to cops, and then they go into the Sulzer Shed you know.
Just before we finish Glenys, and thank you very much for doing all that but I just thought perhaps I ought to, for the record, put it straight. I asked you whether you had always lived in the Valley but I didn't ask you where you were born.
R- I were born in Rossendale General Hospital on the 7th of September 1942.
(900)
1942, that was going to be my next question, when you were born if you didn’t mind me asking you. Just so that we know the sort of range of ages of people working in the mill and how long you've been here. And thank you very much.
R – Right, you're welcome.
SCG/25 June 2003
5,323 words.