THIS TAPE HAS BEEN RECORDED ON APRIL 30TH 1980 IN THE CARDER’S CABIN AT SPRING VALE MILL, CHARLES LANE, HASLINGDEN. THE INFORMANTS ARE CHARLIE GOWERS, CARDER AND JOE PILLING, UNDER CARDER. THE INTERVIEWER IS MARY HUNTER.
Now then Charlie, what’s your official title?
R/C - Carder.
Just carder?
R/C - Carder.
Not overlooker or anything like that?
R/C - No it’s carder.
OK. And what’s yours, Joe?
R/J – Undercarder.
Undercarder. Sounds a bit like undertaker to me.
R/J – I am his assistant.
Very good.
R/C - But we are not just assistant, we work together. We are on an equal footing.
Yes. I was just about to say that. One thing I have noticed is that you obviously work very closely as a team, that’s right. Now, you don't have to answer this if you don't want to but I’m going to ask you when and where you wore born Charlie.
R/C - When I were born?
Yes.
R/C - I were born in Lonsdale Street in Haslingden.
Are you going to tell me when or not?
R/C – Aye, nineteen twenty-three.
Nineteen twenty-three. I won't do my sums now, I’ll do them later. So you've always been a local to this valley have you?
R/C - Always worked in this valley.
Never moved out at all.
R/C - Never moved out.
And what about your family?
(50)
R/C - Well I have seven children. The wife died in 1967, the youngest were one at the time but somehow we survived, I've never given up work.
Good for you.
R/C - Fortunately we had a few girls.
It doesn't need to be girls you know? And are they in the textile trade?
R/C- No, none of them.
None of them.
R/C - None in the textiles.
And why is that?
R/C Well, it isn’t no longer the industry there has been, since they were born there have been fresh industries arrived. Now I've one daughter who has done a lot of modelling, shoes and things like that, who’s worked in the footwear and shoes and she’s also done other trades. She is more or less a housewife. Now another daughter who's a housewife but every now and then they come for her from the shoe works to make special orders which she does do [SG note. Even in the late twentieth century there was still a thriving outworker sector in the slipper industry which was a major employer in the Rossendale Valley.], and I’ve another daughter who works at Porritt's at Stubbins, wire weaving inspection. Scapa Porritt’s. And I’ve one son that’s always been a Social Security expert, and I've got one son in engineering and I’ve another son who’s also tried to be an expert on Social Security.
But he isn’t as well…
R/C - Totally out of character, I don't know why, and I have one going to school, fourteen.
So would you say that they haven't looked for work in the textile trade because it simply isn't there any more?
(100)
R/C - They haven’t looked for work in the textile trade because it's no longer important. They look on it as a dirty horrible job.
What about your parents, were they in the textile trade?
R/C - My father and mother, my mother died when I was about five, in 1929, something like that. And my father was in the textile trade up to 1940 when he joined the Civil Service.
And did he come out of it because he saw a decline? Or because he wanted to change?
R/C - Well he were invited to take this job in the Civil Service and he did do.
And what did he do in the textile trade?
R/C - He was a weaver.
Was he born in this valley?
R/C- In this valley.
And have you got any brothers and sisters?
R/C - I have a sister, but deceased.
And was she in textiles as well?
R/C - At one time.
What about you Joe?
R/J - I was born In Haslingden in 1923.
That’s the same year is it? And you've always stayed in this valley have you?
R/J – Yes.
And your parents wore born and bred in this valley too?
R/J - Father in Crawshawbooth, me mother born here, yes, that’s the lot.
Well Crawshawbooth is near enough isn't it? And were they in textiles?
R/J – No, me father were a miner.
Was there a mine locally then?
R/J - At Crawshawbooth. Well, between Burnley and Crawshawbooth was where he used to work.
And was that opencast mining?
R?J - I don’t know. I think they went underground for it. Drifts.
Drift mining, yes. Have you any brother and sisters?
R/J- I have five sisters and a brother.
And what sort of jobs did they do? Were they in textiles?
R/J - Well they’re a mixture. They were in the slipper works and in textiles, weaving, more weaving than owt.
(150)
What persuaded you, all of you, to go into textiles when you father’d been a miner?
R/J - Well that’s all there were round here, as soon as you left school you got the first job that were vacant.
(5 min)
And that was textiles.
R/J- And you're straight in yes. I came out, I left this firm about 1950 and I went bus conducting for about two years and then I didn’t like the hours so I come back.
I think it was Arnold that was telling me that when he left school there was slippers and felt. Was that right? Felt?
R/J - Yes we had a big felt works.
…straight forward condenser spinning, and that was really about your lot yes?
R/J- That were it round here, really weren't it?
R/C- There was the fine spinning of course at Whitehead’s.
Whitehead, is that the name of a firm? Where was that?
R/C- David Whitehead’s at Rawtenstall.
Oh, Rawtenstall. And what were they making, do you know?
R/C- Well at one particular period I dare say they made more denim cloth than any company in the world.
And denim cloth would he classified as fine spinning would it?
R/C – Yes, made on fine spinning machinery.
And would that be condenser spinning, or would that be ring?
R/C- Fine spinning.
Ring spinning is that?
R/C – Yes, ring spinning.
So back to you Charlie. When you left school what was the first job you had, can you remember?
R/C - Lap carrier, what they call a lap carrier.
And where was that?
R/C- At William Robinson’s Union Mill.
And that's Haslingden?
R/C - Haslingden.
Haslingden. I don’t know too much about the firm, excuse me asking.
R/C- That's close to them.
That's close, yes? And how long did you stay there?
(200)
R/C- I stayed there till I went away during the war and I come back there.
They held your job for you?
R/C- They had to do. Nineteen forty seven.
Forty seven?
R/C - At the end of 1946 or 1947.
And were you still lap carrying then?
R/C - No. Grinding,
And to become a grinder, am I right, you had to go to night school and this sort of thing?
R/C - Not really but I did go to night school. to tell the truth.
So you were taught on the job more or less.
R/C - I went to night school before the war and before I went to work. I used to go to Bury, I used to catch the ten to six train and we used to finish work at half past five so we'd no time off, anything like that. We used to take our tea and eat it on the train going down and change at work see? Come back at night, probably got back to Haslingden about half past ten.
That was a long day then.
R/C - That was a long day, that was three times a week; that went an all through the Winter months right up to May. And when I came back I carried on with me studies but unfortunately there were no facility for City and Guilds or anything like that at Bury, so I had to go to Burnley and I carried on where I left off. So that were the same problem again.
And completed it?
R/C - Completed it.
So you have bits of paper that say you ....
R/C - Piece of paper, yes.
Good for you. So you came back to that firm, just remind me of the name again.
R/C- William Robinson’s.
Right. A grinder. And you stayed there until…
(250)(10 min)
R/C- When I got me City & Guilds I was told to go to a mill called Holme Mill, nicknamed the White Factory, on the road to Burnley. I had to meet them there, I had an interview and they offered to find me work there. I went there and I was actually losing three pounds a week at the time to go there. Well within about six month I’d not only got the three pounds back but another three pounds besides.
Well that was all right then.
R/C - That was all right.
As a grinder?
R/C - I started as a grinder and then I became the mule overlooker in six month because the mule overlooker was ill. And then I took over carding and I were there twenty one years.
And why was it called the White factory?
R/C - It was a nickname from as long as I could remember, I don't know.
It wasn't because it was a whitewashed building or anything?
R/C- No, I wouldn’t say so.
And whose mill was that?
R/C - J Stansfield.
Stansfield?
R/C - It belonged to, that was the trade name but when I went it was bought by Whitham’s, they were in the haulage business. And when they bought it, it had been closed, the whole will had been closed for the war.
Ah yes.
R/C - But the machinery was all in and they actually paid for it £4,000, that was for everything, the building, the land it stood on, the surrounding land, all the water rights and its trade name. So it started from scratch. Now I went just, it hadn’t been going all that long, there were still a lot to complete when I went. And I worked with the managing director’s son, personally, as I work with Joe, twenty years.
And most of that time as the carding….
R/C - The carder, yes.
Yes, as the carder.
R/C- And it was my job there when he went on his holiday I used to do his job.
Which would be a lot of paperwork would it?
R/C - Which were a lot more on your hands on every time.
Yes, well…
R/C- They were a very good firm to work for, they appreciated whatever you did either by gift, being a pipe smoker, a new pipe, breakfast sets, table cloths, towels, they always appreciated it. And they had another good thing and all, towards the end, in the last few years before it finished I used to get seven pound a week bonus off them which was a terrific amount of money, it was half me salary.
(300)
And what sort at year we are talking about now?
R/C- Oh, the beginning of 1960.
Yes, It was a terrific amount, yes.
R/C - It was terrific yes. That was appreciation.
Yes. So what in earth made you leave?
R/C- It closed down. What happened you see… A chap called Clegg was the general manager. Now his son, the managing director’s son, worked with me in the mill and when they decided in the latter years to change the system, I could tell you this history back to front, because at that particular time, towards the end of the 1960s, 1969. It were decided that they’d modernise and get the new big package ring frames. Now I was asked personally about it, and I did give me approval, although I wasn't exactly happy the way things were done. They asked me where to put this machine, I was taken into the boardroom and asked by the father, the managing director and I gave me view where it should go, with the other ring frames. That were reducing costs and everything. But anyhow they decided otherwise and put it in another room
in the mule room, they took a pair of mules out and put it in. Well, it was the worst place they could ever put it. Not only did they do that, they had to put a chap in charge of it who had no experience of the machine. There were nobody in the mill capable, including meself, of maintaining that machine and putting it right. It all worked an dials and fine chains, fine sprockets, there was all sorts of new things on it. And they were very successful with them machines at a firm in Rochdale, they're still going, George Riggs’s. Anyhow they put this chap in charge, he said he knew all about it . Well it were stopped more than it were running. Now it cost a terrific amount of money. So
(350)(15 min)
meanwhile they decided, his father’s getting old you know, so he decided to make his son joint managing director. Now that were a disaster, because in the working part you couldn't ask for a better man at engineering, anything. Anything at all he were skilled but he was awful as a managing director. Now the man that had been the general manager that’d run this from the start, who had worked personally close to them all them years, he resigned. And he left the firm a complete order book for twelve months. I gave his present to him, they asked me to give him it, it were a lawn mower. And from that day to finishing, that firm never got another order. The ring frame was for ever breaking down, it was being operated wrong, they were for ever having to send for the technician again to put it right. Well, this went from bad to worse. Things were so serious they started dealing with a waste firm. I just can’t remember the name, but very shady business people, they should never have had credit off them. They started getting the mixings off them on credit where they’d always dealt with the bank before, they dealt with them direct. Things went from bad to worse, we’d no production off this new frame to really compensate for the cost of it. So they decided, his father came to see me, him that had made his son the joint managing director. His father came and asked me what was wrong. And he said did I think there was anything wrong with his son running the place. Well I couldn't say that anything were wrong because I’ve always thought a lot about him because he was so good. So I said no, that he were all right. Now he said at that particular time, it’d be the end of 1970, he said that was the last five thousand pounds
(400)
he was putting into the firm, he'd already been putting in ever since his son had taken over. So when it came the following year, 1971, July was serious. I think this waste firm had a got a firm grip, he couldn’t budge them. They were so firm that he couldn’t buy off anybody else, he couldn’t even use the bank, and the bank had no confidence in him. So it was just before September when he sent for me and he told me they were going to go into liquidation and I felt sorry for him at the time because he were crying. And he said to me, he said “I know you blame me.” There was nobody else I could blame. I said “There is nothing to cry for.” Now since he’s left he went working for Longrow’s, a big textile firm. Well, they’re in everything and he’s so very skilled he took over the knitting side, so one fabric, things like that, it was no effort.(?) And he went up to Whitakers and he came and asked me three or four times to go with him. But I couldn't leave where my family was, I couldn’t uproot myself and go, you see they weren't without money, they had money and I was blood(?) And now he is the boss of Whitehead’s, he’s come back. Did I ever tell you about David Whitehead? He is boss there.
Yes. But he is managing that one alright is he?
R/C- Oh he’s learned the other side, the business side sufficiently. But he wasn’t efficient enough when he took that job at Stansfield’s.
Basically it sounds as though there was just no one to teach him, because if the general manager left ..
R/C – he didn’t have the technique. He was a chap who'd always worked with his hands you see. Nothing mechanical were beyond him, nothing, whether it were your car, loom, mule, ring frame or anything, he could put it right..
He was a natural engineer.
R/C - Natural engineer, yes. Been brought up to it.
But for you the community life and the roots of the family were more important than flying off to do a smashing job and perhaps a smashing pay packet as well?
R/C- They were, yes. At the time the salary offered in 1971 was almost eighty pounds a week.
(450)
Which is pretty good even now I suppose isn’t it.
R/C- It were good then.
So you came here then.
R/C – There were also the option of a car.
(20 min)
That must have been a difficult time for you.
R/C - As you've said it was more important to the family.
Yes. So you came here then did you?
R/C – Yes, I came to L Whitaker’s, I was invited to, L Whitaker’s. I was invited to Highams, they’re condenser spinners. And I were interviewed with a director called Mann, Mr Mann and I was on the point of going, but they wouldn’t let me go to the new plant they said that was out for at least six months so the only other plant they wanted me to go to was across the road here and there was a big snag there because it was shift work and that was beyond me. So I went to Sam Riding, he were the senior director at Whitakers [and he offered me a job] because I jumped at it even though I lost seven pounds a week, more than seven pounds a week from Stansfield’s. It was seven pound a week less but I got to join L Whitaker’s where I’ve been working since. But it was days, it was very important.
Because of your family?
R/C - Because of my family.
Well that’s a very interesting story Charlie. Can you match that Joe?
R/J - I could never tell a story like that.
What was your first job when you left school Joe?
R/J- My first job were at Slaters, Syke Mill in the warehouse.
Was that textiles?
R/J- Yes, where it's all weaving down Fields Road isn’t it?
Where is that, Haslingden? Yes?
R/J- Yes. About fifteen bob a week it were. So I went, after that I went spinning, learning to spin.
(500)
Same mill?
R/J- No. At, what were it called? Clough End Mill at Acre here.
In where?
R/J - At Acre, Hud Hey, Clough End Mill at Hud Hey. You know as you’re going on the way to Accrington.
Well as I say, I don’t know round here very well but as long as I can find it on the map I’ll be alright.
R/J- Oh you’ll find it. And I left there and I went to Birtwistles cut carrying for a good raise.
And what was that?
R/J- Well all the cuts that come off the looms, they had to he taken up to the warehouse and I had to carry them up.
So you're calling the finished cloth cuts. Is that what they were called?
R/J- Yes.
Now that's interesting Joe, because I'm sure we never came up against that word from the Bancroft weavers. {It’s a common term but Mary hadn’t heard it before]
R/J - Cut carrying weren’t it Charlie?
It must be a local word.
R/J- They come on rollers now.
Oh I see, right.
R/J- Where they used to come out like one long piece of cloth and they called it a cut.
Because it was a certain length, yes. Right, now I am with you yes. So how long were you in the warehouse in the first job?
R/J- Oh dear.
About…
R/J- About nine months.
You didn’t stay there long.
R/J- No, I went to this Hud Hey. I wonder, what were that mill called?
R/C- Clough End.
R/J- Clough End, aye, that were it.
Yes, and that was where you were doing the cut carrying?
R/J – No. I were spinning at Clough End.
Oh I'm sorry.
R/J- What they call a joiner, joiner-minder.
So does that mean that you were sort of with someone else and they were teaching you?
R/J- Yes and paying you as well.
Ah, still that system?
R/J- Yes. Under the old system you got so much out of the office and so much of the spinner out of the bonus on the mule.
Right and were you working with someone who gave you a decent hand?
R/J- Well it were OK, fair enough.
And how long were you at that for Joe?
R/J - I stopped there till about 1940, that’d be about two years there. Then I went to Birtwistle’s to cut carrying and I was called up from there.
And so you came back to them?
(550)
R/J - I went back to Birtwistle’s got the same job which I didn't like, so I finished and went to L Whitaker’s.
Forgive me for asking but it would seem to me that cut carrying would be a lesser job than spinning, am I right?
R/J - Oh yes, aye but they seemed to pay more money there, it was a bigger wage.
So that was the more interesting thing.
R/J - Yes, they just went for money. Me father worked there when he come out, when they shut the pit down, he come down there and he said there is a job down there. I don’t know, about fifteen or sixteen shilling a week more but I couldn't pack up. See, you couldn’t
(25 min)
give your job up then, the war were on you know, and if you were in you had to stop in. It's funny is this though. So me dad said right - he said if he'll not, if he'll not give you your cards, go in at nine o’clock every morning and come home at three - he said and he’ll soon sack you! and he sacked me. He did. So I went to Birtwistle’s then and got the job. I had to go down one Sunday mornings and Jim Barnes were the manager and he says, and I were only little, I was smaller than Charlie. And he looked at me did Jim Barnes and he said “I don't think you'll manage here but come with me.” And he took me in the weaving shed as far as he could and he give me the heaviest cut. We put a strap round with a buckle on, put it on me shoulder and he said “Come on, follow me.” I went up these steps to the warehouse and I thought Oh!, I were on me knees. Anyhow I managed to get it up so he gave me the job but I had to go in on Sunday morning to try it
And you reckon that was simply because you were a small lad at the time?
R/J- Yes. And he thought I couldn't manage it. So 1 carried it up and he give me the job. I stopped there until I were called up, 1942, and I went back there .. no use, same job, it were hard job then. It weren't so bad when I were younger. So I went to Bury, I went to Holme Springs grinding, stripper and grinding over there.
And you were taught on the job were you?
R/J- Well I learned. I set to lap carrying. In them days we used to learn ourselves, didn't we?
R/C - Yes.
R/J- We used to like keep your eye on these jobs like because they were more money.
R/C – We were all self-taught.
All self-taught, yes.
R/J- We were all self-trained you see with watching others. And then when a stripper and grinder backed off I went for the job and Sam Riding give it me. Then they went on three days a week and I’d just got married and so I went bus-conducting. Until everything settled down and I come back here.
So when was the three day week? About 1950 was it?
R/J- Round about yes.
Went bus conducting and didn't like the hours?
R/J – Didn’t like the hours.
And then came back to L Whitaker’s again?
R/J- Came back to Spring Vale.
To Spring Vale then, as a grinder.
R/J - As a grinder yes.
And you’ve been here ever since.
R/J- And stopped here all the time.
So you have seen some people come and go.
R/J- I’ll say, I've been here more than twenty five or twenty six years now. May be on the carding in 1969.
Because up until then you were just a grinder were you?
R/J- Yes.
And In 1969 you were made what do you call it? A carder?
R/J- Under Carder.
Under carder. And you've been a happy team ever since? No you came in 1972 didn’t you?
R/J- No, I had Jim Sutcliffe were carder here.
R/C – I came to this mill last year, last January.
R/J- Well you've been here, in and out of here haven't you for a bit?
R/C - I've been here for a short time before.
R/J - When the carder's been ill.
R/C- But I took over Higher Mill. I went really to Higher Mill.
Oh I see. I didn't really ask which mill it was.
R/C- And I also .. I'd only been at Higher Mill a few weeks and I went working with Sam Riding in Flash Mill on the ring frame, tape condensers, the non-woven machines and needling and rolling.
Needling?
R/C- Yes needling the laps, yes.
Yes, I’ve not seen any ring spinning so I don’t really understand how they work. So, at Higher Mill from 1972, am I right?
R/C: Nineteen seventy one, it was the first of November, I remember the day.
Nineteen seventy one … first of November. And you were at Higher Mill until you came here January 1979?
R/C- I was at Higher Mill about .. from the first of November until about the last week in November. And Sam Riding wanted a job doing, down at Flash Mill…
Sorry, yes.
(30 min)(700)
R/C: .. So I went there for three years, and I could have stopped there, I could have been there yet, but I wouldn’t
…have you…?
R/C: Well I didn’t work shift work, but it was round the clock, twenty four hours there, and I have on occasions, very rarely, looked after the housewife shift, and just came in once to look after ‘em once on Sunday, as I refused ever to, I didn’t want to stop there. Because gradually, as time went on, they would have expected you to be on call, and all sorts. So when I got the opportunity to come here one time, one day, when Jim Sutcliffe the carder were off, it were an ideal opportunity to get away. So then I asked for to stop here, which |I did until I went to Higher Mill, in… it was after July holidays, weren’t it? I don’t remember the date, probably about 1974 or ‘5, and I stopped down there.
Until last year?
R/C- That’s right.
So you’ve certainly spread your wings round L. Whitaker’s and Son, haven’t you?
R/C- Oh, partly.
How does .. perhaps its an unfair question, but how, how does this firm compare with, with others, ‘ cause you’ve seen quite a few of them. Well, either of you.
R/C- Well …
R/J- A bit tight for money, that’s all, you don’t get the same commissions.
R/C- The layout has been very good. I absolutely liked the way everything had been done, they tried to modernise but from leaving Stansfield where I had been, the production of this company, any of the mills, was nowhere near the productive capacity or the quality for that matter from the mill I had left at Stansfield’s. But there we had one advantage, we had a better quality of mixing than what they‘ve ever enjoyed at L Whitaker’s and that was probably the point, a fair bit of quality material to start with.
At Stansfield’s yes?
R/C- That was the important part.
So what you’re saying really is that twenty years ago this layout was fine but because…
R/C- The lay out was fine.
Because they haven’t modernised the actual machinery.
R/C – They’ve respaced the machinery at L Whitaker’s. You see, Stansfield’s were the first condenser spinning mill to have every machine on individual electric motors in 1957 which was unheard of. Now we were the first firm to stop using castor oil to grease the leathers, we went completely off them, went over to synthetics and saved in the region of about four or five hundred pounds a year on castor oil.
Really? Because it’s still leather rubbers here isn’t it?
(700)
R/C- Yes, we still use them, castor oil you know. And that was done in 1957/58 so they saved a terrific amount of money.
R/J- Well, they had them rubbers on here Charlie but they didn't seem to be as good as the others.
R/C- Yes, it didn’t work here.
R/J - They weren’t as good as leather.
R/C- They had the same synthetic rubbers when I went to Flash Mill on their tape cards and they had no problems at all when I went, ‘cause I were on them.
But presumably they would be designed to take synthetic rubbers were they?
R/C – It were very important when getting synthetic rubbers in getting the right type of synthetic rubber for the type of material you are putting through. And these firms, a lot of firms would con you into buying this, that and everything and it doesn't work. So you really want your material tested in their rubbers first. And at that particular time when we started they were trying to sell them you see and we were the first.
So they came and we could have all the facilities .. the first pair we put on
in 1957 was absolutely horrible. Well that pair was still up when that mill
shut. See they had they had their ways and techniques and we followed
them to the letter. You got full instructions, and it was enough to send you
through the walls, everything were wrong. They’d gone wrong somewhere in the type of material we were putting through. So I just altered them one day, forgot everything they’d said and they were still up when we shut down. It was agony it was agony. But that were very important we found out later you see, after that pair. That pair were free, we got them for nothing to that there was a chance of us trying them.
And they only cost twenty pound a pair to buy, so they were a terrific saying.
And they put the whole mill up after that. Saved between four and five hundred pound a year on castor oil.
(35 min)
How much would they pay for leather rubbers (?)
R/C - In that particular time? More than that,
R/J - Ah they were dear.
R/C – It’d probably be about twenty six twenty eight pounds a time. As I say they were tremendous, production wise as well.
When did L Whittaker's go on to electricity Joe?
R/J - I forget.
Yes, the usual go by, I just wondered if you did know.
R/J - See our cardroom were in the middle room.
In the one that ...
R/J- Our Cardroom were in the middle room where them two pair of mules is. And we had breakers in the bottom room and a pair of mules and an odd mule. Well I don’t know when they changed it, it’d be in the 1960s.
(750)
R/C- It was early 1960. I remember the time when they went to Coppull Mill and they bought the whole mill machinery including the mules and they re-opened them again. I should imagine that was when they went electric.
R/J - They put them all down here them yes.
R/C- Yes, they did.
R/J- Aye. We’d to take them out of the middle rooms put them in here. Then they bought them breakers, finishers off Coppull and we'd to crash our others out again and put them in again. We put them in twice. We fetched them out from the middle room down into here and then they bought the Coppull so we… Well, they got a gang, them Varley twins didn't they. They come and they took them out and we put the others in that they'd just bought, in this place.
R/C- But they had they had a very efficient way of doing it.
R/J- Oh the lads had.
R/C - When they bought machinery they had a system of boiling it, cleaning it and it were very good. I don't think there’d be another firm in the County of Lancashire would do the way they worked.
R/J- Full of grease when we got them.
R/C – Isn’t it, excellent.
R/J - They stopped during the war I think or just before the war.
Sort of steam cleaned was it?
R/C- They had them clean, that was Sam Riding wasn’t it?
R/J- They boiled, boiled them didn't they?
R/C- Aye, they boiled them.
R/J- Boil everything.
R/C- Yes, boil, clean them up.
You mentioned the Varley twins? Where do they come from? Now, I just ask because there’s some people up my way who…
R/J- They come from Manchester way. Yes.
R/C – Yes. Manchester way.
They were…
R/J- They were two twins weren't they?
R/C- Identical, just a big bigger than me, strong as horses.
R/J- yes. Now they could move machinery. I believe one of them’s jiggered now.
R/C- Yes.
R/J- No wonder!
And, and they were in the trade of moving machinery?
R/J- They were in scrap. They’d buy it, take it out and sell it.
And you mentioned earlier that you had to crash the cards or something. Do you mean by that break them up?
R/J- Break them up yes.
And then discover that you had to put then back together again?
R/J- No. We fetched them out of the middle room into the bottom room and got them all going, got them running. And then they got them from Coppull so we had to crash them out.
R/C - We did, Take then out when they'd only just put them in.
R/J - We hardly had them in a month, we had to crash them out again.
Do you think all this rather sad closure has now come about so quickly?
R/C - Well in my opinion it hasn’t come about quickly at all. I could foretell this years and years ago.
R/J – They’d been closing for years you know round here. We had a lot of mills in Haslingden.
R/C- But unfortunately there is a way of spinning this type of sub-standard cotton, waste we might call it, waste products. There must be a means to get it out, production wise so nobody can touch you for price; but unfortunately so far as I know nobody's thought it up yet.
You mean another way to this [process] that has a quicker…
R/C- That doesn’t take all this space and all these people to run it. There must be a way.
Yes, there are actually quite a number of processes aren’t there?
R/C- There are far too many.
R/J- Too many hands yes.
Yes, it should yes.
R?C- So that’s what is a big fault. See, any waste spinner that’s modernised, he’s no longer a waste spinner. He’s spinning better quality cotton.
He is a ring spinner or open end, that’s it yes.
R/C - Or open end spinner, yes.
R/J- See, it were all done on the cheap years ago weren’t it.
R/C- Of course it were.
R/J- There were nothing thrown away. It all had to come back, be re-cycled again.
But that’s the simple thing about this, it can be re-cycled with these processes you have got here.
R/J- But every time it's put through, every time we’ve used it once there is less body in it the next time and the next time there is nothing in it.
When you say body do you mean length of fibre?
R/J- Yes, length of fibre.
Because it's been broken up so many times?
R/J- It’s all knocked out yes. Oh yes.
But as long as it’s mixed with some decent stuff it’ll be right won’t it?
R/J- All that decent stuff, we don't get so much of that do we Char1ie?
R/C – No, they’ve never had a fair amount.
R/J- That’s what we were on about, the mixings, before.
R/C- You see the cost of the mill is based on it’s mixings. Halfpenny in a pound increase in the cost of the mixing is a terrific expense to the spinners and they can cripple a firm. Or a ha’penny less and they can get it on the spindle and they're laughing, grand. If they can make the mixing a ha’penny less which they always try to do.
You've got Glenys come to see you I think.
Yes Charlie, you were saying about the ha’penny making really all the difference. Now I can see what you mean by that, it’s a very interesting way of putting it but going back to what we are talking about, the mill closing down, you said that you knew it was coming.
R/C – Definitely.
Why?
R/C- Because it was reaching the end of the line, especially when we came. Both Joe and I were of the opinion that the re-conditioning that was necessary, which wasn't allowed to be done. Which two honourable persons who had a card would have paid for the card but wouldn’t pay the few pounds to have it re-covered. We’ve had difficulty getting anything to do with keeping the job running properly.
(850)
So really they missed the boat here in terms of they should have, some years ago, either re-condition them or get new stock in and they didn’t do.
R/C- It would have been a waste of money to re-condition the plant because the plant is too big. It covers too much, it needs too many people to run it. No, it hasn't been efficient for years, for the lost ten years and it’s gradually gone worse. There has been the problem with all the other mills closing in that you can no longer buy the material we require. As the other mills close they have no waste product. So that was an obvious one and it’s been gradually going worse and worse. This year I've seen it reach a climax but it was practically impossible to get material to keep this place running, even cheaply. Anybody who had any waste wanted a top price for it.
Since you've moved around Whitaker’s a bit, what about the other mills that Whitaker’s have?
R/C- Oh I’d say that Whitaker’s, in their day, was the right size. But they’ve never shrunk with the times, they’ve never rationalised. They've never done that. They could have done that ten years ago even when things were [declining] which would never have shown a profit., where other companies have done this. And a typical example of that is Higham’s, they were still top profit makers in the hard times because they did it..
And they’ve, they’re on the waste side are they, as well?
(45 min)
R/C- Higham’s closed down a terrific number of mills, more than L Whitaker’s could ever dream of having in condenser spinning. And they bought a mill in Rochdale, Grape Mill, and going back over ten years ago they cleaned every bit of machinery out of it and re-organised it on a continental spinning system. And I went to look at it and I was amazed. It was the first I’d ever seen and it would have served me to work there. But unfortunately it was shift work and I couldn’t take it but it was marvellous.
And they are still showing a profit today?
R/C - They are showing a profit. I used to talk to travellers when I worked at Stansfield’s and they told me their bleach yarn and their comber yarn were the finest example of no [variation in] shade, there was almost the same shade or colour of yarn no matter what it was. And it is because of the system they’d put in, that’s all. That was Grape mill and it’s still going.
(900)
R/J- I think they slipped up here, like we can get no more weight off here than we could twenty years ago. No matter what way you do you don’t get any increase.
R/C - See, that’s where Higham’s scored.
R/J - That's right.
R/C - They started this mill, they re-equipped it and they made sure they could make enough production there to satisfy the present day need when they started. Now with going on a modern system they found the rest of the mill which was a large mill, which was empty, as they shut down the other mills they could put the machinery in there and gradually increase the production. So there was always an increase and all under one roof.
SCG/27 June 2003
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