THIS TAPE HAS BEEN RECORDED ON AUGUST 8TH 1983 AND IS A CONVERSATION BETWEEN NEWTON PICKLES AND STANLEY GRAHAM AS THEY WALK THE WATERCOURSES CONNECTED WITH LOTHERSDALE MILL IN LOTHERSDALE VILLAGE ABOVE EARBY IN THE WEST RIDING. WE HAD BEEN ASKED TO ASSESS THE SITE IN CONNECTION WITH A POSSIBLE HERITAGE BID BY THE OWNER JUNE BARROW.
It's Monday, August the 8th 1983 and Stanley Graham that's me and Newton Pickles, that's him, we're up at Lothersdale in the West Riding and we're looking into what used to be the High Dam for Lothersdale mill.
Now then, Newton, there's not a lot of water coming down.
R - It's practically dry.
This dam was the first in - I don't think there was another one. This was the High Dam in a series of two dams which used to run the mill which belonged to Wilsons down in the bottom here which still has the water wheel in it which is reputed to be the biggest indoor water wheel in the world. It's certainly the biggest one I know of in Britain. It's like the Laxey wheel at the Isle of Man but it's indoors. This was the main source of supply for it. Now this was in use until 19.. just before the war, late thirties as far as I know. They gave up using it and I think I'm right in saying that the pipe where it went under the road, the council cut it when they put a sewer in. So there might be problems, there might be problems with this dam. What we've got to think about is if we want to get this water wheel running again we want to get some water down from the top here to the other dam further down which we'll go and look at. There isn't a good water supply to that one. It's a question of how to get the water down there and we'll walk down and have a look at the dam but what I was thinking about was this dam here for the high dam, it doesn't look very safe to me and I think that rather than start using that again they'd be a lot better off, because they wouldn't need a lot of water to turn it because they're not going to take a lot of power out of it, would be to put a little catchment up at the top here and put a plastic pipe right down the beck, a 6” plastic pipe and it’d rise to its own level down at the bottom. We'll have a look at that further down. That's what I was thinking about.
R - You'd happen want something bigger than a 6” plastic-pipe.
Well anyway let's walk down. Let's have a look at clow. You know they wouldn't be using a lot of water if they were using it for demonstration. It's not like running it to get ....
R - The length of pipe matters too. The speed o' water that’ll go through it. You see if you have a pipe and it's absolutely full you don't get a quick flow if you have got a lot of drop. That can be a problem. I should start thinking about that if you want to run a water wheel. An 18” concrete one with some vent pipes on it. Some little grates over the top. You come up against this trouble with pipes that are full. They tend to stop flowing.
We're just walking on to the top of the dam.
(50)
R - Up against this wall it's about 20feet deep nearly.
Aye, it's some depth is that! When this was clean, when it wasn't silted up like it is now it held some water didn't it.
R - It did that, it would have gone right up to that wall and practically up to the road on the other side. It held some water as you say, it did that! They managed to run an odd day off this when it was full, even in Summer they managed to run an odd day when it was full.
5 min
R- That must have been a good life. They talk about 'bad old days'.
We're looking at this today and it's not been a reight wet time and like there's not a lot of water running but if that was gathering all night...
R – It’d fill it. It would, it would fill it.
I should say it would fill it because you've more water running in there than you had running into the dam at Bancroft. That used to fill overnight. It's about same size.
R – It’d fill it. When you start thinking of twelve hours. Nothing going out.
This intrigues me, Newton, this wheel, it nearly looks like a - it's a funny design isn't it? We're looking at the wheel on top of the clow. It's nearly like a ...
R- It’s been made on purpose for it though, definitely. They did a good job. I wonder how long since that were made. It can't be the original. It's been a good job, everything's been thought about. Even a clip round it and a slot in to lock it so's kids couldn't play about with it. Thrust block in the top here. There’d be a collar on the bottom of this when it's properly sealed. There wouldn't be a ball race in of course. It is a good job. It has been anyway. It is yet, isn't it? Just rusty that's all.
Aye, you could soon get this working again.
R - It's been a later edition has this. This isn't an original clow. I should think Varleys at Skipton had made this in years gone by. Not a lot of years happen. About forty or fifty at most.
(100)
R - It's a typical Varley's set up is this. Of course we're talking about Varley's engineers at Skipton. In the old days they used to make y' know millwrighting and bevel wheels for the old mills and water wheels. No doubt about that. Still in business of course.
I think this wheel down here, it was somebody at Eastby.
R - Aye, Eastby.
Now were it Dixon?
R - I can't think of name of the firm and I've tried to.
This were the original outlet here Newton.
R - This were the outlet for the wheel at one time.
This was the outlet for the water going down to the next dam but the funny thing about this you see is when you look at it you'd expect this to be up at a fairly high level wouldn't you? You know, to get the level but it isn't, it's right down there.
R - It's inside, down in't ground is that now, so this one here actually ran the water wheel.
Well this is where the water went out. That's just to hold it back isn't it - there. From here it goes into the next dam.
R - Actually, it's a by-pass then is this.
Well this is the outlet out of this lodge here to the next dam lower down. It feeds the next dam lower down. That's your clow that you shut.
R - That's what you open and shut to empty and fill it.
Well for maintenance and everything. By-wash is at the other side. It's ten foot down, at least.
R - But look how much deeper it is than that!
(150)
Well it's going to be 12feet down isn't it.
R - You'd have to dig to find out.
There's a bracket in the wall there. What's this for here?
R - This poker thing?
It's as if it's holding sommat back. Now this is evidently to open it.
R - So whatever's this for?
It's supporting sommat isn't it? Because you can't move it because it's just wrapped round here.
R - It hasn't been put on as a blacksmith's makeshift to stop this thing from tipping up 'cause the stones all been...
God knows, it might be.
R - It give it something to rest on.
10min
R - Otherwise it doesn’t seem to be serving any purpose does it?
It might just be going to that bracket there. It might just be a tie-bar to hold this.
R - To hold this down so when you're starting lowering this, you see, it would have a tendency to lift this up instead of shoving the door down and I think they've put this on and fixed it to the top of the main bracket down there to stop it from lifting up. They've been messing about with it. There's a lot of dog meat on these bolts.
Look here there's a...
R - We mean by 'dog - meat' that it's packing. I think that's what that's for. It's had a tendency for, instead of the clow door going down this top bracket's been coming up which is only too small of course.
Like this clow door would need pushing down because it's not as heavy as the other. It would be like that one at Bancroft, it had to be pushed down. Well let's walk down the road a bit and have a look at the other dam. Well we're stood on top of the dam now and looking down the beck towards the mill and we're just commenting on the amount of work that's been done here! All that's been done fairly late on, it's concrete.
R - All this concrete all up and down there where it's all been cobbled, like a street. Bottom of the beck's all cobbled for about what - ten yards. This dam wall’s no mean structure for an old mill, of course that's all been concreted later.
And the spill way has a gate in the middle of it as well.
R - There'd be wood planks would them. If the weather were bad they'd take the top one off. If weather got too bad they could take 'em off to keep it safe.
Aye, that's it, aye. That's it, if there was too much water coming down.
R - Wet season they would take one off so it could get away before it washed them houses away back up theer.
Or wash the dam away because you think..
R – All the weight against this wall.
You think, if this dam went..
R – Village would have gone.
It would have made a mess. We'll walk down now, down to the low dam. You see here, Newton if you stand here you can see that pipe from there that went down and it's either gone alongside by the road and dived under the road or whatever but it goes down and you see that corner where the wide gate is? That's where we're going now. This piece of land here is low dam, it's the next dam and we want to have a look at that next but what I'm interested in is if that's about 12feet down I reckon that that pipe was hydraulic, if you will.
(200)
The water was actually going uphill from here to get out of here to that dam.
R - I can tell better if we go and have a look. We'll want to test it probably. We want a hose pipe with two glasses.
That's it, aye, a water level.
15 min
Well, anything. Yes, but that's the best way to do it.
R - It's the best way yet. What would you intend doing with this pipe to run to fill that dam to fill that water?
I don't know but I wouldn't go under the road. I’ll show you when I get down there. I'll show you when we get down there because I don't think you've got to think in terms of using that dam. From what I can make out the culvert under the road here, we're just coming to the low dam now. The culvert under the road was cut before the war when they put a sewer in. The sewage system into the town. Now this is what we're 1ooking into now with all the vegetation in it. This is low dam which is going to be cleaned out.
R - I wouldn't think that would take much cleaning out with all the modern machinery they have today.
Well that's what they're going to do. Just let's have a walk down here.
R - All still intact, wall and everything.
This one of course, this is a good structure to maintain because it has a good wall round it. It might need a bit of puddle in it when it's been dug out otherwise this looks all right to me.
R - Oh it's a simple thing to clear is this. It costs money too. If they can put a decent size pipe down there but it's still got to come across that road.
Well I’ll show you that in a minute but there is some water comes in off this hillside here. Not a lot but there is some. Now you see what we're coming to now, you see this is where the beck comes under the road itself. Now I reckon that's the answer to our problem. There's a bridge here and beck comes under the road.
(250)
Now here look. Here's by wash off this dam. That spills straight down into the beck and look how it's all been concreted.
R - The idea is to come down the beckside with your pipe and under the bridge..
Under the bridge and come up here. If we couldn’t get level here it wouldn't be a big job having a pump in here to lift it 2feet up to the wall.
R You get them levels with a surveyors level and you find out then what head you have.
I reckon you only need about 3' of head to get it to run into here.
R - We could do it us selves Stanley if we could borrow a dumpy. You only need three pieces stood up and one of us sight it while the other puts marks on. What you do, you wave your arms like a monkey.
Come on, Newton. Now then, this dam here, they've had this dam full you see.
R - All in working order.
Oh yes, yes, if you look down here...
R - Oh it's all in working order
There's nothing serious about that gate. Now then, there's this, there's another one here you see. Behind you.
R - Aye. that'll be to empty it I suppose.
No, no. This is to empty it - that one's for the mill.
B - That one's for the water wheel.
Now this one?
R - Now this wants a few repairs doing at it...
Newton, what are you doing? I've just lost Newton, he's fallen down a hole. Are you all right?
R - Course I am. You've lost your engineer.
You daft bugger! Anyway, yes what we're looking at here, it looks as if the gates going to be on and everything, it just wants all straightening up and a head putting back on it. In fact it’s inclined, that's how it's been isn't it?
R - Yes course it has. And your pinion.
Yes there's only the pinion and …
R - Worm gears
What do you mean, 'worm gear'? Oh, would there be a worm gear on to slow it down?
R - Maybe like that.
Understood, I’m with you, yes. Aye and there's the ratchet.
R - And it’d have a safety catch. There you are, look.
A ratchet on it.
R - No, you'd never wind it direct, not with a head of water on it.
Right, now watch out for that hole, Newton.
R - I'm not going down that hole again, Stanley. C’mon.
Now we'll just walk down here and then we'll walk back to the car and bring the car down to the bottom but we'll just walk down to here. We'll just walk along the goyt now.
(300)
Now we're on the line of the goyt.
R - That's underground.
It's coming along here. You'll see where it comes out down here. It comes along here. look at the head your getting now over the beck.
R - You can tell what levels are from that dam we've been stood at to here.
We've got 20feet here. At least aye.
R - Rough guessing off a 10foot ladder.
If you look from the road this has all been concreted along here.
R - That edge? Under here there's a tunnel.
This edge.
R - How big is that tunnel? Has anybody been up it?
I don't know. I don't think it'll be big enough to come up.
20 min
R - You don't think so?
No, I don't think so.
R - It'll have been dug out then from up here and then covered, bricked like cobbles..
Chambered over. That's it.
R - And then filled up again.
This wall under here is all stoned all the way along. Further down it's concreted.
R - I always picture them chaps doing this job, you know. Pickled onions and breeches-arse-steam.
Aye, an' bacon butties every morning. See where the wall's cracked at corner?
R - Aye.
Just climb over here. It's not as intrepid a feat as it looks. I'm stood behind you so if you fall I'll catch you. I think you can come over now and stand behind me.
R - Well I can always pull the plug out.
Now then, here's your goyt, see we're alongside it. It comes out of the ground there and along here. Follow this path down.
R - Hang on a minute. So the size of that is what was under there.
Yes.
R - Oh that would take a bit of digging.
Aye, cause what's that? Three foot across?
R - I've forgotten how deep it is.
Two foot, three foot deep? Aye there is a path on here Newton all the way on, it's just overgrown. it's a concrete wall on the other side of us and all. We've got a concrete wall to the right here and there's a concrete wall to the left. Down and into the beck, aye. Safety measure on't goyt.
(350)
Somebody's water supply.
R - Aye.
Somebody's had a water supply off that. I can just see somebody having a bend on that going into there and a semi-rotary at bottom and once you've pumped it over it'll siphon. This as I say is all concrete down this side. Been renovated all this goyt. It's been done up.
R - They've spent some blinking money.
This goyt has all been renovated this century - must have been. See how it's widening out now. A bit more size in't goyt now.
R - A full time job nearly for somebody keeping this lot clean and looking to it.
Which is something people always forget because people always think that water power's cheap.
R - It's not as cheap as all that. It has to be kept clean. In Summer all this lot’d start growing. You'd better get somebody to go and clean all that goyt out before we start. That were the bad old days.
We're walking along now still following the goyt down and we're now about fifty yard off the mill. We're getting nearer to it and of course this goyt's coming dead level, well with a very small fall all the way on. In a minute we'll be at the place where it really counts, the top of the water wheel. This has fairly grown up since I was here last! Now here the goyt's widening out into a little head pond.
R- Or an out pond, A pond for the wheel.
We're nearly there, Newton. Watch out for that barbed wire, Newton. Is that another spill way we've just walked over there? It looks in the right place.
(400)
Now here we are at the top. Now this is the outlet here from this pond down this cast iron. Chute. I've forgotten proper name for it. I've forgotten what proper name of it is. Launder is it? aye. Anyway, this takes the water from here to the wheel itself. C’mon Newton and prepare yourself for a bit of an experience.
25 min
You've never seen this.
R - it's in good working order.
You can see how at sometime they've raised this.
R - They've lifted it.
They've put another bit on top. They'd get a bit more power wouldn't they. Just watch your footing. Now just watch your footing.
R - Well you wouldn't think they'd raise it to get more power. You can only get power out of a water wheel out of the weight of water there is behind it. It must have been running over and making a mess so they lifted it up.
Now then, just watch your footing in here. All right?
R - Aye.
Now then, Newton Pickles, come here and have a look down here.
R - That is what they call a fair big water wheel!
How about that?
R - Aye, it's some wheel! How wide is it? About five foot? Four foot six?
It'll be five foot won't it. About forty foot diameter.
R - When I were a lad my father used to get onto me and say, "Haven't you been to Lothersdale and had a look at that water wheel?” And I never got round to it. They tried to govern it.
That's what this is is it?
R - Aye, tried to govern it.
That's feed pipe going out to the boiler isn't it?
R - Oh it's only been manual. I wonder if they've had somebody stood up here all the time.
It's got cams on it.
R- Hang on, hang on. It has some cams on.
And those are like shutters.
R - Aye, they're like shutters on a Venetian blind.
If you pull this back they open you see. They open in an order.
R -I wondered if they had some mechanism somewhere in the shed that had driven this. Off a set of governors? You know like your governors on your steam engine?
Yes.
R - And they tried to work it. But look at that handle, there's been a man up here.
And it isn't long since this has been repaired.
R - No, it's all working.
It's good to see how it works. And the other one’s as far back as it'll go and once you've got it back to there you're beginning to lose water again. If you come down alongside me we'll go down and have a look at it. There's the pinion. Now they've pushed it out of gear. Now the wheel at the moment isn't turning and I think it's probably because it's something to do with that.
R - We'll go down and have a look.
Now there's another interesting thing. There's been a shield going down from the launder here to stop water splashing out of the buckets.
R - That was because they tried to keep it off the pinion as much as they could.
Is that right?
R - Yes. Stop it wearing out.
We'll just have a look at this pinion up here. Well at gear ring.
(500)
R - It's not in bad condition. I think if I remember correctly it were re-segmented. Varleys at Skipton did it.
Aye.
R – A lot of years ago but not so long. Within this last forty years anyway. Varleys did it. I remember.
So this wheel, when you look down at it, it's an iron shaft, it's cast iron spoke housings, it's got wooden spokes.
R - And steel tie-bars.
And steel tie-bars. It's like a cross between a suspension wheel and an ordinary wheel isn't it?
R - But it's a forged shaft. It has hammer marks in it.
Aye, that's it, yes. And the wheel's got a wooden back. Cast iron rings on the outside that's carrying the segment gear but it's got a wooden back and the buckets have been bolted on to the wooden back. Tin buckets onto a wooden back.
R - Well they bolted into the wooden back but they also fit into't edge plates on the wheel.
That's it, aye.
R - It's all very well supported.
It doesn't look to me as if these buckets have been ventilated.
R - I don't think they were. Them at County Brook, they were never ventilated. They used to make new buckets for that. It weren't as big as this of course. Well it weren't as big as this, it were wider than this. About 6feet wide. They want all new buckets Stanley. That'll set 'em back a few bob.
Actually, there are a lot of buckets.
R- There’s a lot of spare ones?
There's a lot of buckets but there's just a problem that..
R- Eh they were good old millwrights, they were that! Foundry work. That's another interesting factor on a job like this, how much work was done in't foundry, casting. Even holes in't edge of the tank plate were all cast in. No drilling to do.
It nearly looks as if these were standard sections.
R - No drilling. Well they used to make cast iron tanks and they were advertised.
Well we're walking on a cast iron plate here.
30 min
R - I wouldn't jump about on it.
No, I was just thinking that. Now then, what we're going to do now, we're going to walk up to the top and bring the car down into the bottom and go and see Mrs Barrow. We'll go into the mill and have a look from the bottom. We'll have a look at the wheel from the bottom and see if we can stir it. Now I know that wheel will turn but look what's in front of us here. It's a vertical shaft. There's a big bearing box on the inside.
(550)
R - It's been an angled one too. It's been up at an angle has that so I wonder where that went. There's been a vertical shaft there Stanley.
Down here? There's another plate here. Is that another mounting plate, another bearing?
R - Just an ordinary bearing.
So I'd be getting power from downstairs where the pinion goes in upstairs and there is a lineshaft and you can see the marks on the beams where there's been a line, a lineshaft going through from here and I was puzzling about that when I was looking because inside there's no signs that there's been a drive up through the floor. So that's what it is, it's been outside.
R - It' s been outside.
Well there isn't much room between this launder and the wall.
R - That's just been an ordinary bearing theer. Then your bevel wheels have been up here.
And then tie bars would hold the whole lot together.
R – All the lot into the wall, yes. Tied the wall together. Aye, built up wall boxes. You didn't often see them. They were built into't wall. They were put in as they were building the wall anyway.
It would be easier to fetch it up to Lothersdale in bits like that. Yes, well there was an engine in and all, down at the bottom of course.
R – I’m interested in where that were an all.
Well we'll have a look at that. What we'll do now, we'll go back up. If you look on't outside of the wall theer, on the outside of the wall here and see them pipes going down, that were the feed pipe for the boiler.
(600)
R - A pump.
I'll tell you what, they had a good head for the water.
R - They had plenty of head on it to keep the valves tight.
Chimney's not in bad order.
R - It isn't in bad condition is that.
No, no. I was telling June she wants to get that chimney laddered.
R - It isn't in bad condition since I've seen what the hoops are like, they don't need painting.
Course you never know, do you? There's something here that's interesting. You see these stones here inside? Well now that is the original flue, it was an underground flue up to the chimney. It was a short, stubby chimney on the bank. Then what they've done, they've put in a new engine house in some time down theer. A new engine and of course they put its own chimney on it. And then of course the tin chimney is package boiler that replaced that lot. These are the slabs.
R - They had it on top of this hill and then when they put the new engine in and new boiler they moved it all into the bottom and built a higher chimney.
So we're coming down the back of the mill towards the chimney, past all the dog shit - there is some dog shit about! Now this was quite obviously the boiler house. Well there's a package boiler through theer, we'll be coming through theer to get into the wheel house. This were the boiler house and surprise surprise..
R - Surprise, surprise, the damper chains are still on! Look what a good job it is! Nothing spared. All this were done the modern way later on when girders started coming into being.
This little square brick building at the bottom here, has that been a little connie?
R - It could have been. We can tell best from downstairs.
Why else would that be put on there?
(35 min)(650)
R - Well it's been an extension so they put a set of connies in. Built it into the flue. Originally it wouldn't have any connies.
Here, don't you walk across there because I don't want you breaking your bloody leg!
R - This is definitely the boiler house.
We shall go in there. Now then of course one of the things Newton that you know as well as I do. If you've got a water wheel, you've got to have a tail race. I mean we’d have to look under the bridge to see where the actual tail race came out. But I imagine it came out under the bridge.
R – Under, in the beck.
Under here, in the beck again, aye. Unless they've taken it further down to get some more depth but we'll find that out. And the beck itself of course runs right underneath the mill.
(700)
There's the beck runs into the mill and then there's the tail-race runs into the beck. That runs right under the mill. What a funny shed roof this is!
R - What a funny shape! You'd think they were going to put some girders across when they put them pads on like that!
We're nearly at the end of this tape now. I’ll leave you with June for two minutes while I pop up and get the car, I think that's the best thing to do. These are for the tie bars for the roof because it's mostly a wood construction.
R – Shafting would run that way wouldn't it?
Yes, cross shafting would run that way. I think when we get inside we'll find that those are tie-bars for the roof. Knowing you, you could very well be right. See this is interesting. You see those little windows here, they're mediaeval they've been taken out of another building.
R - It's not a castle, you know, it's a mill.
No, but they are mediaeval windows, they've been taken out of another building and put in there.
R - Well that was the hoist shaft, surely?
I don't know what was in it.
(750)
R – In the later years after the war we put the hoists back. We made all the gearing for it and it were only about four foot square.
They thought enough of it to tie it to the wall itself.
R - It's been raised hasn't it?
Well, I don't know. It's been built like that hasn't it?
R - They had to come and defend it when they were being raided by bow and arrow.
All these cast iron plates on the wall!
R - Wherever they could put a shaft, they put one.
40 min
Aye.
R - They did.
Well, for a long while they took it all over, June will tell you more about that.
They're going to put an arch in this wall here and go inside. We'll be going in in a bit. Down here you see, the beck. Let's go across the road here and I'll leave you with him while I go up and get car and we'll go up and have a look at wheel and chamber itself. What do you think about your wheel so far?
(850)
R - It's a good wheel.
It's grand isn't it!
R - They don't come to life till they start going round. You don't get that bit of interest. Not for the general public to come and have a look at it.
{Change of tape}
Oh God! Nobody'd ever do anything like that now. Come here! Never mind the pin-fold! Bugger me! Now then, see across there where we were following the goyt on. They've concreted all along there. They've done it up all along theer. Burst out one night and started a crack. The old engineer says we've got to do something about that.
R - The old boss says “We'll have to do something about that goyt wall” so they got the local builder in and they did that.
Can't be stopped they've got some good orders.
(From here, interjections made by Mrs. June Barrow will be shown in brackets)
Now this wheel was built by?
R- Ellison and Forsyth.
According to Wilson's book, this wheel was built by Ellison’s at Eastford. Now you tell me what you know about Ellison’s.
R - Well Ellison’s were Ellison’s and Forsyth’s. As far as I can gather and I’m only going off what I've heard through me life, Varleys engineers that are still in Skipton, their grandfather, now I might go back a bit further, or great grandfather, worked for Ellison and Forsyth’s and they bought Ellison and Forsyth out and they built that shop in Skipton. And they carried on with Ellison and Forsyth’s customers.
And you think that they might have cast these segments?
R - I think that Varleys re-segmented this wheel sometime in the nineteen thirties. We could find out with asking Douglas.
Now according to this book, the first engine that was in here was a Roberts engine.
R - So that'll be a Nelson engine.
That'd be a beam engine, wouldn't it?
R - Aye, but the next one was built by Dixon Of Keighley. Now this J. Dixon, I've heard of them engines but I've never actually worked on one. But I don't think they made above one or two.
Can you remember me saying I’d got some catalogues the other day, for steam engines?
R - Yes.
They were from Dixon’s at Keighley. You were going to see them the other day, they must have finished not so long since. I keep thinking of Dixon and Stell. I wonder if they were...
R – Ah well, they were textile machine makers, were Stell. Because I had a chap worked for us, well I had a chap worked for us when I were a lad and he served his time there at Stells and it were a real nigger plantation I believe!
Is that right?
R - Aye. Everything were on piece work or else you get no wage. So we are getting round to it a bit better do now.
Aye, and that'd fit in nicely with that.. because Newton looked at your clow up at the high dam. He says that that looks like Varley’s casting.
R - It looks like Varleys casting, it looks like Varleys type of work. It's newer than any of the others.
Aye, yes, and it looks to me as if there's been, just before they finished with this wheel there's been quite a lot of work done.
R - There was a heck of a lot of work done!
In say 1910 ?
R - I should say later than that, 20-25.
Do you think so?
R - Then start again with concreting and these castings.
So they've been doing the work on this water course and on the wheel itself.
R - Well, I should think that when they were relying on that wheel to run the mill itself it would be a full time job.
They must have done a lot of work on it just before they stopped running it.
R - They must have done, according to what I’m thinking. Anyway I could find out with seeing Varleys. Douglas or Jack. I've thought many a time, I've never seen them since I retired. I could call in some time.
What we’ll do about that, we'll go and see them together and I’ll bring the tape recorder and we’ll get that down as well.
R – I’ll give 'em a ring and tell 'em we're coming then.
(50)
That's it. Well, don't make it just yet.
R - I mean such as Varleys, I used to go to every day practically when they had a foundry, they made all our castings.
(It might be interesting to meet a chap called Norman Pickles who was the man who was in charge of all the waterways)
We haven't got time, we haven't got time.
R - Who's that?
(Norman Pickles)
R - Where does he live?
(Rook Street.)
R - And has he been here a long time?
(All his life.)
They're related.
R - My God, don't have us related, will you!
(Are you related to Norman Pickles?)
R - I am a Pickles. And I’ve just been telling your son here and your daughter that my grandparents originated from Lothersdale and me father had an Uncle had a farm somewhere on these tops and he’d been a sailor before the mast. Then again, me and me wife came hunting round the church yard oh a couple of years ago, we got run out with some sheep. We thought we’d found me father's uncle Dan's grave. His wife wasn't on the stone and we couldn't understand that so I said sometime we'll come along and see if we can find the vicar and see if we can get in and see if we can look at the books. They were real chapel goers. My grandfather played the organ at Kelbrook Chapel, that one that's just been demolished and the one before it for 45 years Voluntary. And me father played it after him for a while. My grandfather was one of the instigators on building it. They found a paper in a bottle you know when they [demolished it] you read about that didn't you Stanley? The first name on that paper was my great grandfather. George Pickles.
(5 min)
So there you are. This is what happens.
R - I do know they originated from Lothersdale and my mother's side, they came from Carleton.
We've been looking at governing gear..
R - I said to Stanley right away, hello they've tried to govern this thing. They haven't just gone about it like they should have done really, they haven't made it...
Automatic?
R - No, they haven't just made it automatic.
Should have put a set of ordinary Watt type governors on and then it would have worked those vanes. Up to a point. It wouldn't have run away anyway it would have closed them if they'd started to.. Look, we've not got all that much time, this morning..
R - Let's face it, our brains work more than what theirs did and that's human element isn't it? We've more experience, that's what I'm trying to drive at.
What did you say, this is just like Bridge Mills at Nelson?
R - Aye.
Wait a minute, when you walked in here you just said 'Bridge Mills at Nelson'.
R - Aye, just like this.
Why did you say that?
R - Wood roof and cast iron pillars. No girders in.
(100)
R - Deadly.
Whit a minute, why did you say deadly?
R - Deadly because you used to have to go and level the shafting. The baulks had all sagged and one thing and another and you'd three inch of packing under one pedestal and next one you’d about a quarter. I’ll tell you what a job it were going to level shafting after they'd been up fifty or sixty years, well this is good. What age is this?
I wouldn’t be able to guess. Eighteen what? I would guess 1860.
R - In the 1870s they started putting cast iron girders in. Like Moss is 1905 and Moss is a beautiful shed, all cast iron.
(It's pulled down now)
R - It's pulled down, aye, Bridge Mills is. The old shafting was all wrought iron shafting, never been turned only where the bearings were. Al the drums were staked on with four keys about half inch square. If you went to shift a couple of drums to drive an extra loom or two it took you all day getting them true again.
When we were looking from the outside, them round pads we saw was for the roof?
R – From the roof bracket. Bevel wheel, they've been cut off, they made a good job of cutting them off whoever did it, you know they stand out here. No there hasn't been any wall brackets, Stanley. Somebody's cut them off.
Tail brackets?
R - No, there’d be the shafts on that wall. They'd run that way so there has been a bearing on that wall, just a small one. Wood pillars.
Aye, they are!
R - I wonder if it's Ellison and Forsyth's millwrighting - I bet it were.
You know, I have an idea that Ellison and Forsyth's were the people who did Bancroft.
R – No it's Robert's is Bancroft.
Millwrighting for Bancroft wasn't done by Roberts. I have an idea it was Ellis and Forsyth's.
R - If it weren't Roberts it were Burnley Iron Works.
When I get home I’ll tell you.
[Report in Craven Herald of March 19th 1920 states that H J and A Coulthurst of Darwen were the ironfounders and millwrights for Bancroft Shed.]
R - I should think it would be Roberts' Millwrighting.
No, now I come to think it was somebody from Accrington that got that contract. I'll tell you when I get home because I’ll look it up for you then I get home.
(150)
Anyway, let's not argue about that.
R - I've always thought it were Roberts Millwrighting with the shape of the brackets. You know they had to work together if they were pushing. Roberts might have made all the castings for somebody else to erect them. It were definitely Roberts' wheels. We got all them wheels made at Roberts when I re-geared it.
What, when you re-geared Bancroft?
R - It were done in a night shift.
You've never told me about that.
R - Oh it were after the war when things were at the top and they ran a night shift. They had an engine driver on that used to start up and open the stop valve just like that and he rolled about eight sets of wheels off in't time he was there.
(10 min)
(This is an interesting thing, Stanley, but I can't make out what it is)
It's a doorway.
(This is part of the old building)
R - That's the old mill.
(It's part of the old mill, yes and I was wondering why it looks like a doorway)
R - It's a doorway but it's been filled in.
It's an old mill doorway, that.
R - It's an outside wall.
This has been the original mill.
R - This has been the extension. It's been a spinning mill originally which most of them all were, spinning. There was very little weaving going on round here when these places were built. They were nearly all spinning. Then things quietened down so they thought, right, we'll do us own spinning and we'll get some looms and we'll start weaving as well. That's when they started taking the old engines out and putting a bigger one in because the old one wouldn't drive any more. Same thing happened at Butts in Barlick. Victoria Mill at Earby was only a single story building at one time.
Well this is the same front wall.
R - Had to be put through for belts, you see.
Belt drives are either into the shed or out of it. They've been out for something else. Now then, Newton - just hang on a minute.
R - A rope drive here, Stanley.
Aye, it's a rope drive.
R - See that's modern.
Aye, that's cotton rope. I’ll tell you what it's for, driving stokers on the boiler.
R - Well, I wouldn't know about that.
Well, it's coming out of the shed theer, through the wall.
R- The lineshaft ran up theer, wires coming down here. It’d be the next one. It’d drive off that. These ropes went back and drove something theer.
And it was taking a shaft down that way which was towards boiler house.
(200)
Come this way Newton. That shaft still in there? We’ll have a look at that when we go through that way.
(Could like to ask another question why did they have those beautiful arched windows..)
R - That's the engine house.
(Yes, but thy did they have them?)
R - It was so you could get your stuff in and out after you'd taken the window frames out.
(Oh it wasn't as simple as that? Is it really, because they were always beautiful weren’t they)
R - Simple as that. What we used to call church windows. I can tell you something now, Victoria Mill at Earby was a tremendous beam engine, it was 1500 hp. and like we were saying they were spinning mills originally and these arch windows looked over the fields, like these would be over the mill yard originally. Earby Mill in the 50s, the fly wheel shaft broke so I got this job to put this new shaft in. Fly wheel weighed about forty ton and while we were working on this I thought how am I going to get this shaft out of this engine house with the crank on? I couldn't get it out that way past the cylinders. I thought well them engineers once put it in for me to get this in and out of here, I’ll have to get it out through the window but they'd built a shed on like this so I'd to get builders in and they took me one bay of the shed roof off, I'd to get the tacklers to shift me fourteen looms from downstairs and I'd to take the line shafting down. Then I'd to put meself a girder out of the engine house to lower me flywheel shaft out through the engine house window into the shed. You see that's what I say they built these bits like this to get your fly wheel in and out. They went and did what they did here, they built a shed on and that's why you couldn't understand what they were for.
(What age would you say those were?)
R - When the mill was built. Originally like you said 18 what? 1860? These will be about 1830.
(Well no..)
R – These will be about 1830.
(Walter Parker came here in 1792, he came here when it was a corn mill so he would have developed it from that time.)
R - It didn't start up as a corn mill originally, it would be spinning, surely.
(Oh no, no, it was a corn mill)
It was a corn mill
(The earliest I can go back is Queen Elizabeth the first. During her time there was a corn mill on this site. It was owned by the Duke of Cumberland and then Sir Thomas Parker came along in 1792 and took over the site of the old corn mill. What part of the old corn mill was still existing, I don't know.)
(250)(15min)
R - Well this wouldn't be part of the old corn mill. You get this sort of thing all over don't you. You come to Barlick and just walk along Wellhouse Road where Silent Night are now in Wellhouse and just look down there and there you'll see four . . windows like this. Two at the bottom and two at the top.
(What time do you think the first steam engine, what time were they putting steam engines in?)
R - About 1850.
It could have been a bit earlier. If it was a Roberts beam engine it could have been 1830. This is where the engine was and all.
R - Aye but there'd be the engine in here before all this clobber were put in.
Yes, before this floor was put in. I mean these holding down bolts are the floor and these round holes aren't there for nothing.
R - These holding down bolts held your second motion shaft pedestal and it's only been a single beam with one cylinder or if it's been McNaughted and your fly wheel shaft pedestal stood on there on't rigger bearing and rest of your engine were here.
Yes.
R - If that gearing were driven off the water wheel, how did they do that then? 'Cause we're getting this job the wrong way round. It must have been that way round.
They wouldn't put it in to twist drive ninety degrees? Now don't forget they put the horizontal engine in here after. But if they put the horizontal in, surely they put the horizontal in that way. Wait a minute, which way's that wheel driving? That wheel's coming this way round so that wall gear's turning that way so what's that driving onto? What the hell's this gear driving onto? What's it driving onto to get it onto that pinion theer?
R- Well I don’t know, there must be something on the other side of that wall mustn’t there.
Wait a minute, this isn’t the flywheel for the engine is it?
R-There must be something on the other side of that wall.
Wait a minute, that shaft from the water wheel is higher up than that isn’t it?
R- We can’t tell until we go into it.
But that’s not been cut off. Look at these bolts here on this side.
R- This stone’s a lot too big really.
Don’t say anything just for a minute. Where the hell’s that gear. It’s going to be the right height for the pinion is that.
(I’m told by people that this wall was the original site of the water wheel)
R - There's been some gears in.
Aye, there's been some gears in.
R - Aye but that's after all this has been altered.
It could have been when the horizontal was in.
R - Could have been then.
This pillar wouldn't be here then.
R - No. There’d be none of this here. Although you can tell it's been an engine house the way it's all been painted. It's been beautiful at one time. Of course these boxes stand with their own weight, these pillars wouldn't have been put under. They'd carry whatever they were put in to carry on their own.
(20 min)
R - That's always been there but these haven't and all this new bed it's been for the horizontal engine. You never know what there could have been here Stanley. How about going downstairs for the condenser and air pump if it had one on.
That's one of the problems when you look at something, but I can't weigh this gearing up here.
R - We'll take a look inside now and see what's driving it.
If your pinion off your water wheel's driving this round, what’s this driving onto? There would have to be another shaft for this to drive onto. How's it getting back to this gearing on the end here?
R - Well we don't know until we find some more gear wheels.
Is that one in gear? Let's have a look on the other side. Look, there's been a bevel there.
(350)
Look at this, look at this...
R - Tie bar.
Tie bar for holding metal. It's beautiful isn't it. I say a little one but it's holding, a fair drive at the end. That's cast iron above it, isn't it?
R - They're all cast iron.
No, but is that a wood floor or is..
R - Let's go along the other side and see what we can find.
It's near to the wheel. Can we go into the wheel?
R - Can we go round here and see what they're coupled to?
Oh God. Me torch is in the car. I want me own because if I'm going down in that pit I want one that I know what it’s going to do. If you go to my car and open the passenger side door and lock it up again after 'cause there's a lot of stuff in there, on the back seat there's a black rubber torch. Yes, it's on the back seat. Could you bring it for me please? We're over the other side of the wall from the engine house now and what we're looking at, it looks very much as though it's been the original bed for the beam engine doesn't it? It looks big enough to be for the entablature.
R - It looks big enough to be for the pillar.
It’d only be about a 15 horse engine. This is definitely nothing to do with any horizontal engine.
R - No, definitely not.
It must be for the old beam engine. I don't see anything else it could be for.
R - Now this is interesting, now there's another one up in this corner. Part of a stone stuck out of a brick wall.
With a Roberts bracket still mounted on it. Then in this corner they've evidently bricked it up and made a gearing alley. Like a little gearing alley for the back end of the gears.
(400)
Horizontal has been put in.
Square bolts up through it and key.
R - Now that's another interesting thing when you start saying 'what will we do today?' for instance. You'd say to a bloke, “Put us a two inch hole through that stone” and he's four foot tall. Pop us a two inch hole through, never mind what they are for. Well there's two at this side and two at that side, three foot and two foot.
Let's go and have a look in that well.
R - Let's go and find somewhere else now.
Newton. We're in the wheelpit now and we're in the North wall and we're looking at the inside. There's a bearing that's nearest to the mill and you've just lifted the cap off it. What's that bearing like?
R - It's in good condition is that shaft. In fact today you wouldn't think it had ever run. It's been looked after. It's a forged shaft with a power hammer of some description, a steam hammer I should think. The ends are staked on with six keys. The arms are getting a bit knotty.
There's been some new ones put in.
R - Aye, some odd ones in't there! It's a marvellously built wheel. All tied together.
Ah there's the shaft, Newton.
(22 min)
I’m thinking about that one at Quarry Bank, there's no signs that this has been repaired. Those stakes look to me as if they were, as if they'd never been moved.
R – Millwright put them in.
Aye, that was what I was looking at then, now normally..
R - There'd have been a gap. You can't tell but I shouldn't think it's ever been - just shine your light over this other side, Stanley.
(450)
There's a gap there.
R - There is a gap. After the keys have been finished it's been all caulked up these heads have been caulked probably with [cast iron]borings. Good idea that really.
Look how thin that stake is at this side.
R- There’s six in each side. Is there five in?
There might be.
R - There's four in. There's only four in. I thought it were funny if there were five, there's four. They've never moved have they?
Oh no, it's been a good job. Thinking about problems that we've seen with some of these wheels, I mean there's no sign of any damage at all in this spoke housing.
R - You know when they built this wheel it was laid down in the yard.
Aye.
R -They build it laid down in't yard afore it come here, engineers yard. Now young Douglas is the best man to contact if there is any more history about it. I think he'll have worked on it as a lad.
You see when I get hold of that, with one hand I can move that wheel. So it's fairly well balanced. We're going down the side of wheel now and Newton's complaining about spokes. Now Newton's just lifting the cap off this oh no!
R - Splendid, not bad at all!
Newton, Newton, Newton.
R - What's to do? Are you fast?
Why is there that hole in't wall, theer?
R - Where?
Theer.
R - Probably to get shaft out.
It's out of line isn't it.
R - Aye, of course it's out of line but it wouldn't matter if they were taking the shaft out.
It wouldn't would it. They could move it about..
R - Now then, I wonder whether he would have room when he come to assemble it or to tighten keys. He put that hole in't wall to swing his hammer.
I'll bet it is and it's just right for tightening keys.
(500)
Now then, Newton's having a look. Watch where you’re going here Newton. Newton's having a look at - no that one won't work, Newton's grabbing hold of the microphone to shine a light.
R - I wonder if there's something underneath the bottom.
Be careful Newton.
R -It could be a bucket that's stuck on the penstock, you know all disintegrating. It could be one, have you tried pulling it backwards way?
Yes, but at the moment I can't...
R - Could be - of course the best way of course to see that would be from underneath.
What’s this bearing like here?
R - Oh it's done for. Pedestal's still here with half a brass in which is all you need.
Newton, what are them bolt holes in the wall? What are them bolt holes theer for?
R- Wheelguard?
Bit of a platform maybe?
R - Maybe, or a wheelguard. Have you seen this wheel with kidney rings on?
Yes, I was looking at that, what is it?
R - They're kidney rings. These lumps are cast onto each half of this wheel and to take strain off the bolts after you put it all together you shrink these rings on. There's four on.
(30 min)(550)
R - One on that side, one on that side and same theer but it has been a blinking good job, there's no doubt about that. They'd have trouble with the original pinion. Original pinion would be old castings and then they decided to replace 'em, easy we'll make it split.
Has this pinion been put in at same time as new rings?
R - Could have been. Could have been put in at same time as segments. Wonder what ratio it is.
You could work it out. Well we could come back and do that. So many to the foot, could you work that out?
R - Will it be ten to one or more? Say four foot into forty, that's ten - ten to one. The lineshaft speed were knocking round about the hundred mark for reasonable running. It's been plated has half of this wheel an' all. It's been broken somewhere - aye theer. It's broken. This lot wants all taking out and straightening up.
When you come to think about it the only way you can take that out of here is if you take that wheel to bits.
R - You couldn't take that out any other way now. Cut the hooks off and get it out in two halves. You could get, draw the shaft back into theer. You get it out you could turn it round then. You could get it out then Stanley. There's been a lot of repairs done at it hasn't there? All this lot. You see all these segments they're all bedded onto wood. It used to be a bit of a job doing that. For adjusting the pitch and keeping them true. There's a lot more to it than meets the eye with a water wheel. They wouldn't know where to start today.
Well let's just go back to this end here.
(600)
What do you reckon about ten revs per minute?
R - I were still working speed out and it were ten to one and it would be ten revs a minute.
That's all you'd want this to do.
R - Well there's another thing comes into water wheels at speed, my father always said that County Brook water wheel ran too fast and they weren't getting the full benefit out of the water and water can only fall at so many feet a minute.
That's it.
R - And if your wheel is going faster than what your water will fall you're losing power.
Look at that pillar down here.
SCG/03 September 2003. 10,428 words.