ANCIENT WHALLEY ABBEY BOUNDARIES

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ANCIENT WHALLEY ABBEY BOUNDARIES

Post by jpmurray681 » 06 Nov 2014, 15:32

I'VE BEEN TRYING TO TRACE A COUPLE OF PLACES ON THE OLD WHALLEY ABBEY BOUNDARIES, BOTH OF WHICH ARE IN THE FOULRIDGE OR BARLICK AREA.

AFTER MIDHOP AND ADMARGILL,BOTH OF WHICH ARE PRETTY OBVIOUS,THE BOUNDS GO TO THE HEAD OF BERNEKER THEN TO POUNDESCAGHEUD ( THESE ARE THE TWO THAT I CAN'T LOCATE ),THE NEXT POINT NAMED IS BERNETKNARRES WHICH IS PROBABLY KNARRS HILL.IN ALL PROBABILITY MY MYSTERY PLACES ARE BETWEEN ADMERGILL AND KNARRS .

MY INFO COMES FROM JESSICA LOFTHOUSE'S THREE RIVERS BOOK (PAGE 242)

I'D MUCH APPRECIATE ANY LIGHT WHICH ANY KNOWLEDGEABLE LOCALS CAN SHINE ON MY QUERY AND SAY THANKS IN ADVANCE.

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Re: ANCIENT WHALLEY ABBEY BOUNDARIES

Post by PanBiker » 06 Nov 2014, 16:34

Hello and welcome to the site. I'm going to move your post into a more suitable category in the History section rather than here in Introductions. It may well attract more interest there.

It would be helpful if you could please refrain from using all capital letters in future posts, as they are considered shouting on internet forums.
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Re: ANCIENT WHALLEY ABBEY BOUNDARIES

Post by Stanley » 07 Nov 2014, 05:26

Morning Murray, you don't give a date for the locations. Here are some clues. In 1147 a party of Cistercian monks came to Barlick and fpunded an abbey after de Lacey of Pontefract had given them the parish of Barnoldswick for that purpose. They left for a better offer in 1152 and founded Kirkstall Abbey. However, in the intervening period a Perambulation was made of the boundaries and there is a record of this in Aitken, 'The History of the Deanery of Craven'. The perambulation enclosed an area which included Admergill but which was later contested by the Crown for many years as de Lacey had mistakenly included part of the Forest of Blackburnshire which was of course royal land. The correct boundary should have followed the Black Dyke which runs from Blacko towards Gisburn. However the original perambulation gives some names which may help you, one being Ellesagh which has never been accurately identified. Barnoldswick remained, partly or wholly depending on the date until the Dissolution in the mid 16th century and may well have ignored the legal boundary as set by many court cases and adhered to the original perambulation.
If you use site search or Google search accompanied by 'oneguyfrombarlick' to make it site specific you'll find a lot of references to these matters.
Remember that what I describe took place in the Anarchy and that monastic boundaries were not always contiguous, they often had isolated Granges.
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Re: ANCIENT WHALLEY ABBEY BOUNDARIES

Post by jpmurray681 » 09 Nov 2014, 15:54

Firstly my apologies for breaking convention by posting in capitals which just demonstrates that this is not my usual medium and indeed that i first learned to communicate by using a thin stick with a removable pen nib on the end which was then dipped into an ink well full of ink. I'll get up to speed with this new medium eventually.
Further to my initial query, here is a bit more info from miss lofthouses book. The boundary went from where calder met ribble thro rimington along twiston brook, thro middop to the crooked oak at admergill. The next two named are my lost spots which are from a document probably dating to the 14th or 15th century and are probably tops of hills as the next few are knarrs hill, wolf stones, crow hill and the weathered stones on boulsworth hill.
The bounds then go towards the source of the irwell at sharneyford before following it to irwell vale where it then heads north west over hog lowe pike and pike lowe and back to whalley via knuzden.

.

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Re: ANCIENT WHALLEY ABBEY BOUNDARIES

Post by Wendyf » 10 Nov 2014, 05:42

I was having a think about this yesterday and then woke at 4am this morning with a light bulb over my head. :idea:
As you can see I live on Burnt Hill, and on top of Burnt Hill the old Lancashire/Yorkshire boundary makes a sharp turn, marked by a Tom Cross before heading off over Knarrs. Could this be the "head of Berneker" you mention.

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Re: ANCIENT WHALLEY ABBEY BOUNDARIES

Post by Wendyf » 10 Nov 2014, 08:55

There is also Burn Moor at Admergill. John Clayton in his book "Admergill-An Ancient Estate" says;
"..we see that the de Lacy charter shows Henry rattling up Oxegill to the Pikelaw called Alainset and here we see that Alainseat is the old name for Jackson Hill. This was the summit of Burn Moor (1250ft) and was an important point on the boundary of the Percy fee in Craven."

Could this be another candidate for the "Head of Berneker", and could my Burnt Hill possibly be Bernetknarrs....

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Re: ANCIENT WHALLEY ABBEY BOUNDARIES

Post by Wendyf » 10 Nov 2014, 15:16

Another clue found in John Clayton's "Valley of the Drawn Sword".
"Barnside, near Laneshawbridge, was the seat of a branch of the Townley family for generations and was originally known as Bernesete from the ON Biorn + saetr meaning Biorn's mountain pasture."

He also gives some witness statements taken for a Colne boundary survey of 1592.
"The known bounds were a grey stone in Aynslack Head, Stone Benkes, round the hill at Barnside Knarr end to Sandyford Bridge..."

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Re: ANCIENT WHALLEY ABBEY BOUNDARIES

Post by jpmurray681 » 11 Nov 2014, 14:25

Thanks to wendyf for those replies most of which had crossed my mind as i perused maps old and modern . The prime stumbling block centres on where was the crooked oak in admergill and why use a tree which is going to fade away instead of a hill top such as burn moor or weets ? I had also wondered if burnt was the bernet of bernetknarrs and that the boundaries broadly followed old county boundaries.
Could poundscagheud have been corrupted to great edge if the cag of the old name was pronounced cage rather than cagg.
I am sorry if my query has made wendyf leap up at 4am with a eureka moment but she is obviously also finding the subject fascinating and if we keep ferretting away someone may come up with a solution.
I am incidentally an outsider from your area ,hailing as i do from Bury, but find it fascinating both for walking and delving into it's past.hope someone comes up with an answer.

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Re: ANCIENT WHALLEY ABBEY BOUNDARIES

Post by Wendyf » 11 Nov 2014, 16:32

The other Tom Cross (& Dissenter's Well)which is beside the house now called Harwes, previously Copy House, must have been an important marker on the boundary. That is behind Piked Edge and at the top of Scald Bank. Both names that could, at a pinch...... :smile:

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Re: ANCIENT WHALLEY ABBEY BOUNDARIES

Post by plaques » 11 Nov 2014, 18:19

I know nowt about Whalley Abbey Boundaries so what I'm offering up here may have nothing at all to do with the subject.
The web site about the Grimshaw's of Barrowford carries a map showing Burnt H...? it also references an "Old Oak Tree" near Admergill. You have to scroll through it to get the pictures Grimshaw Site.
Hope I haven't distracted you too much.

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Re: ANCIENT WHALLEY ABBEY BOUNDARIES

Post by Wendyf » 11 Nov 2014, 21:13

I think it's Burnt M rather than T Plaques, for Burnt Moor as mentioned above.
There was a place called "Panshaw", somewhere on what is now Castle Road in Colne between Brown Hill and Whitesyke, according to the 1623 survey of the King's Highways in Colne. That's a bit out of the area we are hoping to find Poundscagheud though. Also the pinfold nearby, opposite Bluebell, is mentioned in the same survey as the "Pawnd".
If there were pinfolds or pounds to collect stray animals on town boundaries would they also be where roads crossed parish or county boundaries?

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Re: ANCIENT WHALLEY ABBEY BOUNDARIES

Post by Stanley » 12 Nov 2014, 04:38

I doubt if they would be too remote from the township, after all the animals would have to be tended....
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Re: ANCIENT WHALLEY ABBEY BOUNDARIES

Post by jpmurray681 » 24 Nov 2014, 16:20

Since the abbey bounds have exactly followed the county boundary along the ribble and through rimington then i think that the reference to middop will have been the edge of middop moor where it crosses burn moor. The county line now does a 90 degree turn south down CLAUDE'S CLOUGH which is where i suspect the crooked oak stood. A suggestion of GRIMSHAWS OAK was made but i think it may be a mile or so to the south of the old abbey bounds,(but i may be wrong). The old county line did another 90 degree turn, this time to the north east along a very straight length of wheathead lane, across the gisburn road and over BLACKO HILL. Is this the mysterious head of berneker, was blacko hill once called something like burn acre to twin it with burn moor across the admergill valley.
If the abbey line is indeed faithfully following the county line,(which of course altered in 1974 ), then poundscaghead must be on the line which goes along standing stone lane,and the edge of whitemoor resr before crossing the canal and old rail line then climbing the hills again east of foulridge.
The 'head' part of our lost name presumably means the top or high point of a hill or slope which would indicate kelbrook moor, (which is slightly off line ).Another possible high spot is to the east and above a series of place names containing the word HAGUE which straddle the main foulridge to kelbrook road. Is HAGUE an old name for that area and hillside and a corruption of the cag of poundscaghead.
The next place is BERNETKNARRS which i presumed was knarrs hill but i think is burnt hill now because the old county line did aother 90 degree turn here to pick up the next few relatively undisputed points where the two boundaries coincide.
I have been given the name of a member of the PENDLE AND DISTRICT HISTORY SOCIETY who i'm assured is the fount of all knowledge on matters of whalley and district. I will try to open some kind of dialogue to see if we can resolve the matter. His initials are BJ and he gives local talks so if anyone knows him well please feel free to contact him as i can only try to do it through his society.

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Re: ANCIENT WHALLEY ABBEY BOUNDARIES

Post by jpmurray681 » 10 Dec 2014, 14:15

Since my last post when i indicated that i would contact the PENDLE FOREST HISTORY SOC, I have been unable to do so due, i think, to the ancient nature of my browser. Therefore i will ask again that if anyone is able to do this then please help me out.
During some general reading I found that 'sceag' is an old english word meaning a wood so that poundescaghead could mean the top of a sloping wooded area. This again makes my speculation about the area with the modern names of HAGUE sound interesting.

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Re: ANCIENT WHALLEY ABBEY BOUNDARIES

Post by Wendyf » 10 Dec 2014, 15:01

I don't know anything about the Pendle Forest History Society but there is a link HERE to their website.
The person you are hoping to contact must be Brian Jeffries. If you open the contact details tab on the website there is an email address for the group.
I think there must be a problem with the website, as once I had opened the contact page I couldn't get off it again....

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Re: ANCIENT WHALLEY ABBEY BOUNDARIES

Post by PanBiker » 10 Dec 2014, 16:34

On the website above, I don't think there is a link back to the Home page from contacts. I could navigate anywhere else though.

For JPMurray no need to put up with a dodgy browser, just download Firefox or Chrome, a simple Google search will reveal either.
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Re: ANCIENT WHALLEY ABBEY BOUNDARIES

Post by jpmurray681 » 14 Jan 2015, 15:16

I have got the following account of a perambulation of the abbey boundaries from a book in Whalley library.

'through the divisions of Midhop to a certain oak called le crokehok in admergill, proceeding eastwards to the head of Benerker are the boundaries between Whalley and St Michael called Le Gylkirk in the diocese of York. Proceeding south westwards to Poundeschagheued, the boundary is between Whalley and thornton in craven then southwards to Bernesetknarres then south to Wolvestones'(now Wolf Stones).

Some of the spellings are a bit different from my earlier posts but what is more enlightening is the directions indicated to the next point. The exact position of Bernesetknarres isnt certain but seems to be confined to quite a small area and thus sends Poundeschagheued over the pre 1974 county boundary into Yorkshire and the Head of Benerker even further to the north east.

The question raised is where is the parish of St Michael le Gylkirk and does this mean that the boundary was nearer to the Barlick or Earby area ?

This account refers to the year 1650

The last thing which ive just spotted is the resemblance of the word Berneset to a place called Barnside ,which Wendyf referred to in an earlier post.

Hope this keeps you hunting for the elusive answer.

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Re: ANCIENT WHALLEY ABBEY BOUNDARIES

Post by PanBiker » 14 Jan 2015, 15:32

The only St Michaels Church in the immediate vicinity to Barnoldswick is at Bracewell.

The Benefice of Barnoldswick with Bracewell
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Re: ANCIENT WHALLEY ABBEY BOUNDARIES

Post by Stanley » 15 Jan 2015, 04:47

The thing to remember about any delineation of ecclesiastical boundaries post-Dissolution is that it is part of a property dispute and may be biased. The dispute between the manors of Foulridge and Barnoldswick in the 16th century is a good example. Look for the Whitemoor Map on the site....
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Re: ANCIENT WHALLEY ABBEY BOUNDARIES

Post by jpmurray681 » 20 Jan 2015, 13:27

I committed a small faux pas in my last post when I said that the boundary went south westwards to poundeschagheued when in fact it should be southwards. The boundary from its last named point ie Head of Benerker adjoins with that of the parish of Thornton and from the previous point, which is the crooked oak in Addemargilhed and seems to place the elusive oak tree at the top of the gill near the Moorcock pub, although it could equally well be at the top of Burn Moor and so coincide with the county boundary.
As this boundary joins with the Head of Benerker it shares a boundary with the parish of Le Gylkirk which seems to me to be the Gill church out towards Thornton even though the info from the book in Whalley library calls it St Michael's.
Was Barlick in the parish of Le Gylkirk ? because it doesnt get a mention in the list of those which adjoin the Whalley boundaries.
Poundeschagheued is to the north of Bernesetknarres (probably Barnside in Knarrs ) and is still possibly on Burnt Hill, where the old county boundary turned south.
Could Benerker be an old name for the high ground overlooking Barlick and be a possible derivation of the towns name, which I saw yesterday in a book in the library spelt Bernolfswick ?.
All speculation of course, and from an outsider, but it may stir something up.
The parishes adjoining,as listed in order for this area are Mytton, Gisburne, Le Gylkirk, Thornton, Carleton, Kyldewick and Kyghlage (keighley).

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Re: ANCIENT WHALLEY ABBEY BOUNDARIES

Post by Stanley » 21 Jan 2015, 05:22

Doubtful if an oak tree would grow on top of a moor. Accepted version of Bernolfswick is the holding or farmstead belonging to a Saxon named Bernulf. Le Gill is the name given to the parish of Barnoldswick with Bracewell. Barnoldswick is the senior element but remember that Bracewell, the seat of the Tempest family at one time was more important than it is now. Barnoldswick had a church and a priest long before the Cistercians came. Best guess is some time shortly after 600. See Kirkstall Abbey records for evidence of this. Gill Church itself was a lefter build to replace the original church the Cistercians destroyed because it annoyed them.
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Re: ANCIENT WHALLEY ABBEY BOUNDARIES

Post by David Whipp » 21 Jan 2015, 08:16

How extensive would the forestation have been at the time? What's now moorland could have been woodland?

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Re: ANCIENT WHALLEY ABBEY BOUNDARIES

Post by Stanley » 21 Jan 2015, 08:37

Two answers David. The term 'forest' as in Royal Forest didn't indicate trees so much as hunting ground. As for trees, even in prehistoric times there is no reason to suspect that the treeline was any different than it is now and in addition the uplands were very boggy and acid and apart from the height, this doesn't encourage large trees. There are some isolated examples of trees being planted for windbreaks as High as 1000 feet but only on very favourable soil.
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Re: ANCIENT WHALLEY ABBEY BOUNDARIES

Post by Wendyf » 21 Jan 2015, 09:12

There are oak woods on the side of Kelbrook Moor. On the 1854 OS map the summit (1175.9 ft) is in the woodland.
A large part of the area on both sides of Skipton Old Road as it climbs to Black Lane Ends was once known as Shaw or Shayhead. There are still a couple of farms and the row of cottages beside the road called Shawhead but in the 1841 census all these properties were described as being in Shay Head.
On the west side of the road:
Flass Bent
Jerusalem
Plain Point (a row of cottages beside the road now called Shawhead Cottages)
New Jerusalem (another row of cottages beside the road, demolished in the 19th Century except for one which still remains)
Piked Hill (Now called Shaw Clough)
Piked Edge

On the east side is an area which belonged to Foulridge Parish, on some old maps it is called Foulridge detached. The 1841 census describes it as “Part of Foulridge Township called Shayhead” that included:

Shaygate
Shayhead (or Shawhead)
Knarrside
Alby (Albion) Plain
Earl Hall
Knarrs
Barnside
Monkroyd
Laneshawbridge Mill

Could "Poundeschagheued" actually be Round Shaw Head??

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Re: ANCIENT WHALLEY ABBEY BOUNDARIES

Post by jpmurray681 » 21 Jan 2015, 13:43

Its interesting to find out that the point i'm speculating for poundeschagheued is in an area which was known as shawhead since as I noted earlier sceag is an old word meaning wood and I think shaw means a clearing in a wood and the top of Kelbrook moor was still wooded in the mid 1800's and partly still is.
If that approximately fixes poundeschagheued where was Head of Benerker ? The account from the early history of whalley says that it was to the north or in my humble opinion, northwest and shared a boundary with the parish of thornton which would send it into yorkshire towards Barlick or Earby yet up to now we've managed to contain it entirely within Lancashire.
Stanley posts that Barlick and Bracewell are both in the parish of Le Gill which shares it's boundary with Whalley's boundary between Admergill and Head of Benerker which presumably places Head of Benerker on that line,possibly at the point where Le Gill's boundary meets Thorntons.
Just to go back to the issue of whether an oak tree could grow on an exposed hill top, it was obviously a venerable old thing and probably a remnant of a small wood. It's long gone and unfortunately we'll maybe never know.

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