ANCIENT WHALLEY ABBEY BOUNDARIES

[jpmurray681]

I have received a reply from PENDLE FOREST HISTORY GROUP which raise some interesting points, it goes as follows.

It is very possible that the boundary ran pver Pendle hill across to Alainseat (admergill)around Admergill head and across the Black Dyke to the Greystone cross above Sandyford along a surviving double ditch to the Lark Hill Stone (by Whitemoor res )through Higher Hague (Poundesgagheud)up to Burnt Hill at Hainslack (Burneker-beacon ) then south.


That has raised some interesting points, some of which are new and some which we have chewed over previously. The relevant one is probably berneker indicating a beacon.

The reply does say that the correspondent hasn't studied the boundaries in any great detail but suggests that the comments may be food for thought

[Stanley]

Could this be your 'Larkhill stone'. It is on the old medieval road behind the bungalow at the SW corner of the reservoir at Whitemoor The road was realigned in 1840 when the reservoir was built. Area now called Standing Stone gate (gait?). The route you describe is almost identical to the De Lacey perambulation when he gifted the manor to Fountains Abbey. See the Whitemoor map and papers on the site for the route and the mistake that was made when he got the boundary wrong and included part of the royal forest of Blackburnshire. The stones are older than Whalley Abbey and are almost certainly shire boundary markers. There are two, a broken stub and a later standing stone next to each other.

[jpmurray681]

I'm still searching so over the last couple of weeks I've had a wander from Kelbrook up the valley, initially to spy out the lie of the land around Burnt Hill where the county boundary makes a 90 degree turn to the south. This is where I've tentatively placed Poundescagheud since the history of the abbey sends the boundary due south to the next point which is Barnside Knarrs (modern spelling). The head of Benerker is named as due north of Poundescagheud which points straight to Bleara Moor. Two ancient monuments are named on top of this moor which may have made it an obvious site for a boundary marker.
I initially intended to walk to Burnt Hill from Foulridge but found that the marina car park was designated as private and thus drove on to Kelbrook which i had dismissed as modern sounding but which i found to be quite lovely. The walk up the valley was equally lovely and i noticed that I was walking along a seemingly ancient lane known as Heads lane, which probably led over the head of the valley into Lothersdale. My obvious thought was,did Heads lane lead onto the head of Benerker?.
I had sometimes wondered why Barnoldswick was known as Barlick rather than the more obvious Barnick. Having now walked along the lovely valley which sweeps down thro' Kelbrook and opens up the vista towards Barlick I can see a speculative connection between the two names.I speculated in an earlier post that head of Benerker could be a high spot overlooking Barlick, possibly on Whitemoor or on the other side of the valley around the various Hague names.
The abbey bounds come through the crooked oak at Admergillhead, which appears to have been at a spot now known as One Tree Hill near the Moorcock pub, and from there go eastwards to the head of Benerker from where an abrupt turn was made to the south (as mentioned earlier). Any other notable possible point doesn't give enough leeway for the boundary to make its next two turns to the south.
Seemingly cut and dried but the historical account says that the abbey boundary going south to Poundescagheud shares with Thornton parish but in my scenario it would abut the Carleton parish boundary. where has Benerker gone ? Further comments appreciated.

[Wendyf]

Interesting stuff jp, you should have called in! I do the walk down to Kelbrook and back on a regular basis, and though it's very muddy in places at the moment it's always a lovely walk.
My theory is that a track from Kelbrook and Earby followed Heads Lane up the clough and crossed Harden Beck below Harden Old House where the new Pennine Bridleway does now, and then came up the hill right behind the farms of Brown Hill, Lower & Higher Burnt Hill and joined the old Skipton Road almost at the summit of Burnt Hill.
It's hard without looking at a map with you, but the Thornton in Craven parish boundary came up from Hague running along the side of Kelbrook Moor to Tom Cross on Burnt Hill then took a straight line to the summit of Bleara. The only part that could be said to run southwards would be between County Brook and Lancashire Gill below Hague before it turns east.

You should have a look at this topic! The View From Up Here

[jpmurray681]

My train of thought was that since the abbey bounds had already drifted outside of the county boundary at Admergillhead and the next point (head of Benerker) was eastwards then that could indicate Bleara moor as contact from the Pendle group indicated that the word could refer to a beacon hill. That would have fitted nicely with a turn to the south along the neighbouring parish boundary. my walk onto Bleara moor has shown that a beacon here was unnecessary as Pinhaw is visible from surrounding heights which would (or may ) have been signal mountains.
Admergillhead and Burnt Hill are on exactly the same line of latitude and this line intersects with the county boundary in the Hague area and in doing so would agree with the written account which says that the Whalley and Thornton parish boundarys abut each other along this line.This would also coincide with the Pendle Forest group's thoughts that this was the line.
It is likely that an account detailing where parish boundarys meet is more correct than one which gives easterly or southerly directions and it looks probable that something in the written account was wrong or someone's ancient radar was on the blink.
If in fact then that the heights above Hague are head of Benerker why has the name entirely disappeared. This calls for another wander in the area
Any excuse !!!

[plaques]

Jp have you ever thought of trying to put your ideas on a map or even a number of way points say against the Lancashire Mario Maps. I thought I was familiar with the area but quite frankly I get lost when you use the old names. Of course there's always the danger that someone with evil intent may plagiarise your work so if you want to keep it under wraps until its finished I'll understand.

[Wendyf]

I'm thinking that from the descriptions given this point where the boundary with Lancashire changes from Gill parish to Thornton in Craven must be your "head of Berneker"
There is a direction change and the boundary with Thornton in Craven runs to the south. This point is also due north of the pinfold or pound at Foulridge...

[Stanley]

Watching with interest....

[Wendyf]

Watching with interest....

Then you will know that I have absolutely no idea what I'm talking about!

[jpmurray681]

Wendyf's post and map show the point between the canal and old railway where the old county boundary came across from east to west and is also the point where the parish of St Michael le Gylkirk (Bracewell) met the Thornton parish boundary, It's shown on the OS map as a very faint dotted line. It then carried on east through Hague and is shown as very distinct wall lines to the south of Kelbrook Moor to Hainslack on Burnt Hill.Everything to the north and north west of this line was to the local's great delight moved into Lancashire in 1974. Lucky people.
I did speculate on a post in january that that meeting point of old parish boundaries could be head of benerker but it's down in the valley bottom and doesn't seem to be the head of anything obvious. What it does raise is why the old county boundary had a funny little northward kink at that point instead of running directly east from the point where it went through Whitemoor res, Did something notable exist here in the 1600's ?


I hope that helps plaques in following the discussion points which we've postulated up to now.I'm also getting a bit nervous because the Sage of Barlick is watching with interest.

[Wendyf]

Perhaps there has always been a bridge or ford there to cross the stream. Just a thought, but could the kink in the boundary itself be considered a "head" ?

[plaques]

In many cases old tribal boundaries were defined from naturally occurring features. rivers, streams, hill ridges, edges of swamps etc. ie: something that was clearly visible and generally speaking didn't move. It was only when maps were developed that 'straight' lines became 'boundaries'. All obvious stuff, but come the bulldozer and modern drainage then most of the old natural barriers became irrelevant. So all you have to do is imagine what it would be like before Farmer John drained the fields, LCC built the Roads. Canals, Railways, Reservoirs and you're home and dry. In other words, The BEST of Luck.

[Stanley]

JP. if 'Sage of Barlick refers to me, I'm flattered but wouldn't claim any such honour! (I often sign myself 'Confused of Barlick) However, I am watching with interest and Wendy has no need to be apprehensive, I have nothing but respect for both her efforts and the rest of you. It struck me that it might be helpful if I made a few observations based on a lot of years of digging and puzzling.
The first thing to say is that there are more hidden clues in the landscape than you can poke a stick at! Just one example; When John Clayton and I walked extensively over Blacko Hill Side trying to unpick interesting things like Malkin Tower, the Whitemoor Dispute and the boundaries, John, who has an excellent eye for these things, pointed out features on the ground that I had missed. We puzzled over them and eventually decided that the only logical explanation for them was that we were looking at features that in some cases seemed to pre-date the last Ice Age. We both found this incredible but nothing else fitted. Always keep an open mind and take the clues at their own value.
P is right about the ancient tribal boundaries. They are usually rooted in topographical features and he correctly identifies some of them. When I first saw the Black Dyke running parallel with Gisburn old track from Blacko Tower to beyond Weets it seemed obvious that this was a defensive line against the tribe to the East as it denied them the advantage of height over the valley to the west. When de Lacey made his perambulation he ignored it and annexed Admergill by setting his boundary of the Manor of Barlick too far west. Remember that this mistake/theft happened during a troubled time of great unrest and anarchy. Successful men like de Lacey hadn't got to their position by being nice guys!
There was another element in the de Lacey error. It happened in a period when the great expansion of monastic ownership was born stemming from the clear strategy of Odo to install them as one of the elements of control over the lands gained in the Conquest. The invaders had absolute power and any monastic boundaries set by them paid scant regard to earlier tribal and administrative boundaries. Once installed these decisions had the support of both Common Law and the Ecclesiastical courts. Local considerations were ignored, see the Pope's decision over the slighting of the earlier church in Barlick by the monks from Fountains Abbey for a good example of where the power lay.
The next episode of serious interference with boundaries came in the explosion of change in land ownership after the Dissolution of the Monasteries in the 16th C and Henry's fire sale of their assets. This was motivated by 'commercial' considerations, the first time this had happened. Monastic lands were re-allocated all over the country often using suspect evidence. That this could lead to trouble is evidenced by the Whitemoor dispute between the manors of Foulridge and Barlick. This went to Chancery and in the end Barlick got the decision and retained the summit of Whitemoor. The question in my mind was always what the attraction of this unpromising piece of moorland was. My conclusion was that it was based in the need to control sources of fuel (turf) and control over riparian rights, these triggered respectively by population rise and the need for water power in a more commercial age.
Eventually, as mapping and civil administration improved the boundaries were gradually rationalised and set in the form we see today. Subsequent administrative boundary changes were at first thought to trump ancient boundaries like the shires but of late even Eric Pickles was forced to admit that the 'ancient' shire boundaries were still valid.
Two small facts about boundaries for you....
When Peter White, formerly Her Majesty's Inspector of Ancient Monuments for the North West was put in charge of the revision of Listed Buildings in England the first problem they hit was how to accurately and definitively divide up the administrative areas for this purpose. After long deliberation it was decided that the most logical division was one based on the old Parish boundaries as these were the most logical in topographical and administrative terms. This still applies to this day.
During linguistic research into the places where dialect terms for common objects changed a map was constructed using points where these changes occurred. Much to the researchers surprise (because it was outside their field of knowledge), they found they had mapped the boundaries of the old kingdoms, Northumbria, Mercia, Wessex and Essex. Despite all the changes and migration the folk memory had retained these divisions. This example demonstrates to me that when you are looking at boundaries you have to widen the scope of your enquiry because sometimes the most obscure information can be a marker/explanation.
Right! Sorry about that but you have triggered me off and who knows, in my ramblings I might have given you a clue. I reckon you're doing well and even though you may not reach a definitive conclusion this is a classic way of expanding knowledge and giving others clues to go forward. You are not wasting your time. Fly the kites and see how they fit in!

[jpmurray681]

Thanks for those quick replies to my latest musings, they give me a buzz that others are interested in what began as curiousity on my part in a few lines in Jessica Lofthouses Three Rivers book.
I've used the account of the map of Whitemoor as we hunted down the two mystery places and found it more than useful and also accounts of the Admergill boundary dispute which probably accounts for the abbey bounds deviation away from the old county line which follows the immovable Claudes Clough then across the bottom of Admergill .
Where the old county boundary did its funny kink, it occurs to me now, it may merely have been using the even older existing parish boundaries.
After I posted yesterdays latest thoughts i looked again at the modern OS map (OL21) and noticed that the Thornton parish line ,as it climbs up the hillside around the various Hagues, skirts the head of what looks like a wooded gash in the slope leading up from the valley and that that may be a candidate for a name like head of Benerker. The top end of the wooded gash is afew yards south of a property called Hague.
If that is a possibility, has Benerker somehow morphed into the name Hague. A bit tenuous perhaps but possible.
The reason for sharing my curiousity on your site was that it might stir a memory of a name which had fallen into general disuse but was still used by local people. I can only use names on the map.
One of my main fascinations is how roads developed, note that they were rarely in valley bottoms due to boggy conditions. In particular I find roman roads interesting and have followed the line of the one from Downham to Brogden Hall.
I'm a mine of useless information.

[plaques]

Roads are only of interest if you have wheels. Also you need relatively flat ground reinforced to take the wheel loading. Bearing in mind that the majority of under the feudal where not allowed to move out of the area. This brings us back to walking or mules. A quick glance round the Foulridge area will show that the majority of old farms were set above the 600ft level mainly to avoid the cold mists and clear of the boggy bottoms. Travel posed the same problems. Better to go straight up and down hills than to take long detours round them. It also had the advantage that on the open moorland there was no cover for the indians to hide. The term Hague may be useful in identifying where relatively lowland travel was possible but I'm not sure about its use as a definitive boundary marker. (information is never useless).

[Stanley]

The name Hague has always interested me. I have heard an attractive explanation that it derives from the Dutch 'Hague' and appeared after Dutch engineers were brought in to assist with the drainage of the Kelbrook and Salterforth bottoms. Another slightly less plausible explanation is that it derives from 'Ague' the marsh fever which could possibly have been endemic in the low lying land. However, my ultimate destination is always Ekwall and the English Place Name Society (EPNS). Ekwall has nothing direct to offer. EPNS favour 'hague' as being a corruption/derivation from the OE 'Heighe' an enclosure, often fenced by hedges. There are many 'heys' in the area and on balance I favour this as the origin. The first mention EPNS find is in 1597. It seems to be a plausible origin and is supported by the fact it was common in these parts.

[Wendyf]

I asked John Clayton for his view and received this reply yesterday;

Hi Wendy,

Please feel free to post this in the OGFB forum - hope it makes sense.

The boundary issue SEEMS reasonably straight forward (famous last words!) in etymological terms.

The boundary locations start at the head of Admergill - this area is complex in that two parallel boundaries enclose the estate. An early kingdom boundary ran along the Cravenshire limit ridge on Jackson Slack Hill (the 'Alainseat' pikelaw) towards Craven Laithe Farm before turning south via a large dyke and up to Sandyford on White Moor.

An estate boundary also ran around Admergill from this large dyke via the Black Dyke before heading west over Blacko Hill at Black Dyke Nook. The boundary ditch then followed the clough into Blacko Water and up the hill to Jackson Slack where it joined the kingdom boundary. This estate boundary eventually became the county boundary.

From the juncture of the estate/county line just east of the former Greystones Inn the county boundary met a (probable) Abbey cross above Sandyford before following a double ditch down to Hey ('boundary'). It appears to me that a diversion was orchestrated here by the Abbey to include Hey Mill before returning and heading along the Lancashire Gill or Dyke. I take Higher Hague (Hague Head) to be Poundescagheud: the prefix pound makes no sense in this OE context but there is a strong suggestion of the whole compound having a meaning of either 'against Hague Head' or 'Hague Head channel(ditch)' ie. The LancashireDyke.

Berneker would appear to be a description relating to land - acer = a field while aker = land. OE Baer means open giving Baernaker as Moorland. Berenacer would mean Barley Field while Beorneker would be 'large fire/beacon.' All of these would seem to fit with the boundary in the Aynslack (boundary hollow) region at Tom Cross (Tom = boundary but not sure if this stone was an Abbey cross) before the boundary heads down to Knarrs.

This diversion from Burnt Hill across to Boulsworth could well be part of a latish system (Saxon) with a kingdom based east of the Pennines held land across Boulsworth terminating at Catlow Gill on the Burnley border. This is suggested by Norse place-names, especially the word Gill which is used a lot along this boundary. Prior to this there could have been an Iron Age kingdom boundary running roughly coterminous with the county boundary from Pendle Hill to Burnt Hill and then straight along Warley Wise Lane instead of heading to Boulsworth. These early kingdom boundaries are evidenced by a number of newly discovered defensive hill sites that operated alongside known sites such as Castercliffe hillfort at Colne.

John Clayton
The Burnley and Pendle Archaeological Survey

[Wendyf]

The first mention of Hague in the Thornton parish records is in 1598, though the first few entries are spelt Haig or Haigh. This spelling continues off and on throughout the 1600's and 1700's.

[jpmurray681]

That brought a flurry of activity and quite a few points of interest especially with a view to old place names. Knowing more about the derivation of these old names gives us a chance to pinpoint the two places we're seeking.
Strangely both experts that have tentatively tendered an opinion position the two places tho opposite way round to that in the literature ie naming poundescaghead at Hague and Benerker (or Berneker) at Burnt hill, both seemingly based on their interpretation of the old names. I've asked if the 'expert' at Pendle FHS would be kind enough to confirm if his 'food for thought reply' would seem to be correct even though the History of Whalley Abbey has them the other way round.
One of the meanings given in the old english for Berneker was moorland and that would seem to fit nicely with the head of the slope at Hague marking a change from the cultivated valley to the wilder land to the east ie over the moors.
Poundescaghead is interpreted as head of Hague but could easily still be regarded as having evolved into Shayhead which is the present name for the area leading up to the boundary direction change at Burnt hill as postulated earlier in our quest. Remember that the written account could be copied from something written up to 900 years ago.
Hague only seems to appear about 1597 or so and one interpretation of the name is enclosure. Was this an early example of land being enclosed or is it simply that Mr Hague decided to build a house?
The other interesting point is that the line was rerouted to go around Hey mill and the modern map shows the parish boundary going around the back of the modern mill which sits next to the canal. Is that where the old mill was and does that explain the northward kink in the boundary as it crosses the valley bottom

[Wendyf]

I think John may be the expert that Pendle Forest got their opinion from.

[jpmurray681]

It's been a few weeks since I posted any new musings as i seemed to have gone as far as I could without any new info. I took a walk into the valley bottom where the northward parish boundary kink occurs and then up the wooded valley to emerge at Hague and it got me wondering why the existing parish boundary follows later stone wall lines before meeting the wooded valley near it's top.
I had speculated that the head of this valley may be the sighting point for a boundary marker as seen from the Whitemoor heights as usually boundaries would have tried to follow a straight line if there was nothing else obvious, such as a hilltop, which being immovable could be used. It also looked to me like the line should have taken it along Standing Stone Lane to cross the valley bottom at what is now Daubers bridge and across the A56 to go straight up the wooded valley. When I checked my older map (1860ish) I found that the county boundary did indeed follow the wooded valley from the bottom to the top and not come in to join nearer the top. That seems to me that the old bounds may indeed have come straight across before a change was made which produced the kink in the valley bottom near the canal. That also suggests that the top of the valley near Hague is the most ancient and unmoved of the present boundary points.
If, as I speculated last time, Hague which only gets it's first mention in 1597 was named after a man called Hague who bought or rented the land to develop it, is there any way that the resident historians of Barlick can pin that down as fact rather than speculation ?
The other suggestion for Hague is that it is a corruption of the word Hey, meaning boundary,which became Haigh (pronounced Hay) and later it's present pronunciation. I also suggested that head of Benerker might mean the start of the moorland and that gets a bit of credence from the name of an old property at the start of Cob lane called Moorgate meaning the road onto the moor. We have one in Bury at the start of the road to Rochdale.

[jpmurray681]

In the absence of any further insights from local interested parties I had a look in the library to see if there was anything new to discover about Hague. In the History of Barlick by Atkinson it suggested that Hague was mentioned as long ago as 1381 and indicating an enclosed area for animals.
I next went up to Lister well rd where the view down into the valley on the flank of Weets was quite stunning with swathes of wild flowers in the fields. I went via Duck Pond and Sandyford on the Gisburn old rd where I could see a high ridge running across Admergill head over Greystone Moor and passing below the top of Weets hill, an obvious route for a boundary which is apparently marked by a double ditch across the moor (which I didn't actually see myself).
As I posted earlier, It's still possible that Bleara Moor is the elusive Head of Berneker as the literature says that the boundary goes east from Admergill to that point before turning directly south to Poundescagheud (probably Burnt Hill). Bleara Hill is very visible from the eastern side of the Weets/Whitemoor hill.

[Stanley]

The ditch you mention is marked on the Whitemoor map as Black Dyke and has every appearance of being a very old tribal boundary. John Clayton did a lot of work on it.

[jpmurray681]

With regard to the double ditch which i mentioned in my last post, this was from a reply by John Clayton and posted by wendyf. This said that an estate/county boundary ran east from the former Greystones inn via a supposed abbey cross above Sandyford and then followed a double ditch down to Hey. I must have crossed it somewhere on my walk up Lister well lane via Duck Pond and past Sandyford up to Weets.
I am aware of Black Dyke because I sat in it one day having lunch and at the time didn't realise its historic significance

[Stanley]

The thing that struck me about the Black Dyke the first time I saw it was its size. Too big to be a natural feature and when first dug it would of course have been a lot more impressive.