ELIZABETH HARTLEY QUESTION

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Stanley
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ELIZABETH HARTLEY QUESTION

Post by Stanley » 31 Jul 2012, 06:10

i GOT MAIL THIS MORNING. Can anyone respond to Maureen?

Hello Stanley,

I have just registered with 'One guy from Barlick' as I am interested in
family history, and you helped me once before regarding the Bracewell and
Hartley family.

I wonder if anyone is interested in Elizabeth Hartley, who married William
Metcalf Bracewell in 1874. Elizabeth was the daughter of Abner Hartley and
Jane Windle.
You were kind enough to let me have a photo of Elizabeth some time ago.

Jane Windle ( Elizabeth's mother) was born at Horton on the 29th April 1818
parents = Jonas Windle and Dinah Howorth. Jonas and Dinah are my 4xgreat
grandparents. Jonas died Holden workhouse (Bolton By Boland) in 1852.
His story is a very interesting one.
What I find even more interesting is that his granddaughter Elizabeth
Hartley married into the very wealthy Bracewell family.

Elizabeth's mother (Jane Windle) was the sister of my 3xgreatgranddad John
Windle. Jane Windle's family went UP in the world and her brother's family
stayed very working class. In fact while Elizabeth was giving birth to her
children at Calf House in the 1870s, her cousin Thomas Windle's wife (my
2xgreat grandma) died in childbirth and is buried in a paupers grave. What
a contrast in the lives of one family.

If anyone is interested I will pass on all the history of the two branches
in my family tree.

I am still trying to find my way round the site so I hope you don't mind me
sending this to you. Maybe you could advice me how to contact people who
may be interested.

Many thanks,
Maureen Noonan
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Re: ELIZABETH HARTLEY QUESTION

Post by EileenDavid » 31 Jul 2012, 08:58

Hello Maureen

I am also researching the Bracewell/Hartley line. My Bracewells are a Jenny Bracewell baptised at Colne 25.12.1782 daughter of Joseph Bracewell and Susy Hartley. Jenny married Richard Higgin at Newchurch in Pendle 19.04.1802. Joseph Bracewell was born circa 1746 (not been able to locate his baptism) and married Susy Hartley 09.10.1776 at St Bart's Colne, one of the witnesses was James Hartley They had 8 children, John, Sally, Jenny, Martha, Hartley, Mary, Catherine and William. William the youngest married Ann Windle from Barnoldswick. Susy Hartley we think was the daughter of John and Susan Bracewell.

I have found at the Preston records office reference DDB 80/83 dated 01.03.1786 a lease. The lease reads for 15 years at £46.00 rent, Thomas Parker to Joseph Bracewell of Whitehouses in Barnoldswick Co York Yeoman of Colne Edge. Whitehouses is farmland on the outskirts of Colne and Foulridge There was also another lease, dated 1.4.1785 between Thomas Parker and Richard Bracewell of Hoylehouse in Greater Marsden a farmer

Does this tie in with any of your Bracewell's

Eileen

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Re: ELIZABETH HARTLEY QUESTION

Post by maureen noonan » 31 Jul 2012, 16:29

Thanks Eileen and thank you too Stanley. I appreciate your help very much.

Eileen I'm sorry I can't help you with your Hartley - Bracewell family. I know about William 'Billycock' Bracewell and his son William Metcalf Bracewell because William Metcalf married Elizabeth Hartley. As I say Elizabeth was the grandaughter of my 4x great grandparents Jonas Windle and Dinah Howorth. My ancestors are the Windle family and I have no real connection with the Hartley and Bracewell family though I find them very interesting.

As you know Elizabeth's mother, Jane Windle, married Abner Hartley 4th April 1844. Abner's parents were Luke and Elizabeth Hartley. The couple had ten children and lived at Bracewell and worked as farmers. Luke was born about 1800. I know the names of all Lukes children. Abner was the eldest child born about 1819 and his eldest sister Alice married Thomas Ayrton at Bracewell in 1843. They had at least 14 children!! I know a little more about this branch of the Hartley family if they are of interest to you.

I don't think the Ann Windle you mention is connected to me. My Windle ancestors came from Horton near Gisburn. If there are any Windles, out there, who could have a connection I would be very interested to hear from you.

Good luck in your search Eileen, if I can be of any help (regarding Luke and family) just let me know.

Maureen

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Re: ELIZABETH HARTLEY QUESTION

Post by Stanley » 01 Aug 2012, 04:02

Image

Elizabeth with her grand children.
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Re: ELIZABETH HARTLEY QUESTION

Post by EileenDavid » 01 Aug 2012, 08:35

Hello Maureen, Thanks for getting back sorry that we can't help one another, this is a really good site for that Eileen

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Re: ELIZABETH HARTLEY QUESTION

Post by Whyperion » 01 Aug 2012, 08:52

Eileen , you are looking at a Family in the 1780s, Maureen in the Mid 1800s , the only point of possible crossover is 1806 to 1818. Could be useful you getting together just to confirm any relationships backwards in Maureens Case and Forwards in yours !

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Re: ELIZABETH HARTLEY QUESTION

Post by maureen noonan » 01 Aug 2012, 11:31

Thanks Eileen, Whyperion and Stanley,

What a wonderful site this is for research. You are all most helpful. Loved the photo of Elizabeth Bracewell ( nee Hartley) Stanley. Thanks alot. I can go back to 1800 with Luke Hartley Eileen. In 1841 the family was living Yarlside Bracewell. It would be lovely to make a connection between your Hartley's and Luke. There does seem to have been alot of Hartleys around at the time so it could be difficult.

I would love to trace the descendants of Elizabeth Hartley and William Metcalf Bracewell who married in 1871 and had three children. 1. William ( who later became a canon in the Church of England). 2. Edith born 1876 3.Ellen 1878. They lived at Calf House Barmaldswick. William Metcalf died suddenly in 1890 age 42.

Elizabeth moved to Blackburn and lived at 151 Preston New Road with her children. In 1901 her son WILLIAM was working as a vicar at Sheffield and was married to Hannah Forrest - her brother was said to be Sir William Forrest. They later had three children including daughters Hannah Forrest Bracewell, and Mary Forrest Bracewell who married Sir Ambrose Dundas in 1931. Ambrose and Mary had one daughter Anstice Ann Flux Dundas, born 1933 in Peshawar. Ambrose later became Lieutenant Governor of the Ise of Man.
Elizabeth's daughter Edith married J Greaves at Blackburn in 1903. I think her other daughter Ellen married and also had a daughter who was her only child.

I wonder if the above children knew anything about Elizabeth Bracewell (nee Hartley's family) and Elizabeth's grandparents Jonas and Dinah Windle. They are all descended from Jonas and Dinah, and the children of Anstice Dundas born Peshawar in 1933 are their 4x great grandchildren as I am. I'm sure that old Jonas would have been amazed at how high his granddaughter Elizabeth climbed up the 'social ladder'. It's also very interesting how my side of the Windle family stayed 'poor' and Elizabeth's side did very well, after her marriage into the Bracewell family. What a fascinating subject family history is.

I'll write somemore about my Windle family later, if that's ok, to see if there is anyone else around who has a connection with them.
Thanks again to all of you,
Maureen

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Re: ELIZABETH HARTLEY QUESTION

Post by Stanley » 02 Aug 2012, 04:50

I like Elizabeth! I'm sure you've read my account of the Bracewells and the way Elizabeth stood up to Billycock and in effect broke the partnership by insisting she should be paid out. Some woman! I have always said that I'd hate to have been up on a charge in front of her!
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Re: ELIZABETH HARTLEY QUESTION

Post by maureen noonan » 02 Aug 2012, 13:14

Thanks Stanley,

I agree with you about Elizabeth. A lady who could stick up for herself. I have a copy of your research into the Bracewell family - Billycock and the court case. You put alot into that research and I found it very interesting. I did find the will of William Metcalf. It said ----------'Administration of the PERSONAL Estate ------------------- was granted at the Principal Registry to Elizabeth Bracewell of Calf Hall widow the relict. Personal Estate £20,119-18s-6p. (28th July 1881). I notice from your research that (through the court) Elizabeth was trying to recover £ 21,000 'in respect of her late husband's share in the business'. Would there be £20,000+ in the personal estate and £21,000 in the business or is £21,119-18s-6p the total estate?

I found Elizabeth's will - 'Probate Lancaster 28th June 1916 to Rev. William Bracewell (son). Effects: £423-6s-7p'. I was surprised at the 'little' Elizabeth left. What happened to the money her husband left? Did she win the case against Billycock or did the business go bust? She was living at Preston New Road Blackburn at the time of her death.

Could you please tell me how to start another TOPIC or FORUM on the WINDLE FAMILY. I wouldn't have known how to start this one without you. Thanks. It's nice to know you are there to put me right!!

Maureen

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Re: ELIZABETH HARTLEY QUESTION

Post by Stanley » 03 Aug 2012, 04:41

Billycock had made a big mistake when he gave Elizabeth personal promissory notes for the debt so she was in effect chasing his personal estate for the money. It looks as though there was no firewall between his estate and the business and so his son Christopher lost everything as well.There are hints that Billycock's trustees were on her side. Note that the matter wasn't settled in court, the judge sent them away to sort it out between them.
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Re: ELIZABETH HARTLEY QUESTION

Post by maureen noonan » 03 Aug 2012, 13:23

Thanks Stanley,
Looks like Elizabeth had a comfortable life but alot of money was lost (all round) after he husband's death.
maureen

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Re: ELIZABETH HARTLEY QUESTION

Post by Stanley » 04 Aug 2012, 03:39

Maureen, the basic problem was that Billycock grew his business using bank loans. One thing that surprised me was that he never owned his own house. The valuation that Elizabeth's pay out was calculated on was a gross over-estimate, another mistake they made.
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Re: ELIZABETH HARTLEY QUESTION

Post by maureen noonan » 04 Aug 2012, 19:09

Stanley, I have found the will of Reverend William Bracewell, son of Elizabeth and William Metcalf Bracewell, who died at Sheffield 18th August 1954. Effects: £8796-7s-5p I don't think he would have made that sort of money as a vicar in the Church Of- England.
You say the judge told Elizabeth and Billycock to go and sort things out themselves. I don't think Billycock would want Elizabeth to get her hands on the money, for if she married again the money would go out of the Bracewell family. Perhaps it was decided to give most of William Metcalfs estate to his son (and maybe the two daughters) with a nice little income for Elizabeth to have a comfortable life. How did Rev. William get that sort of money if not from his father's estate?
Wills: William Metcalf Bracewell 1880 = £20,119-18s-6p
William 'Billycock' Bracewell 1885 = £18,640-15s-11p
Christopher George Bracewell 1889 = £580-6s-1p (only)
Elizabeth Bracwell 1916 = £423-6s-7p
Rev William Bracewell = £ 8796-7s-5p
I also found an obitury of William 'Billycock' Bracewell in the Manchester Times 14th March 1885, a day after his death.
'The nonconformists churches of the district have lost a liberal friend. He built the Wesleyan Chapel-------at the cost of £8,000 or £10,000, and also presented day schools.------ Other churches received substantial assistance from him.'
Interesting. More you dig and more you want to find out!!
Maureen

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Re: ELIZABETH HARTLEY QUESTION

Post by Stanley » 05 Aug 2012, 04:19

It's almost a disease Maureen. Remember that the figures you quote from the wills are usually gross before deduction of liabilities.
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Re: ELIZABETH HARTLEY QUESTION

Post by maureen noonan » 05 Aug 2012, 18:24

Thanks Stanley - I'll let you know if I 'dig' anything else up. All your research, regarding the Bracewell family, has been a great help to me and very interesting.
Maureen

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Re: ELIZABETH HARTLEY QUESTION

Post by Stanley » 06 Aug 2012, 04:58

Thanks for that Maureen. Time and time again members have proved on the site that research is for sharing, it tends to produce even more answers and of course occasional corrections. It's the best way I know of refining the results, bit like Tizer's scientific method, you test something by exposing it to your peers and letting them try to disprove it.
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Re: ELIZABETH HARTLEY QUESTION

Post by Marilyn » 05 Dec 2014, 04:40

I am trying to find info on an Elizabeth Hartley (b Gisburn 1860) who married a James Whittaker (b 1858 Bracewell).
Elizabeth's father is named as John Hartley, and James' father as Thomas Whittaker on their wedding entry...February 1879.
They are Great Great Grandparents to Cazza and I.
Their children were Mary b 1879 (our Great Gran...1st marriage to W. Cowgill, 2nd marriage to W. Moss)
Annie b 1881
Robert b 1885
James b 1896
Richard b 1898
John b 1901
I am also interested in knowing about the Hartley connection through Elizabeth, if anyone can give any pointers.

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Re: ELIZABETH HARTLEY QUESTION

Post by Wendyf » 06 Dec 2014, 15:29

Do you know anything about Elizabeth Maz? I've been having a look on Ancestry and have found a possible Elizabeth in the 1871 census, and a baptism in Gisburn 11th January 1863, which probably means she was born 1862 and ties in with the marriage register which says she was only 17 when she married. Why the marriage in Manchester I wonder? Did she run away because she was under age?
if you have found all this out all ready just let me know, otherwise I'm on the case!

In the 1871 census the Hartley family are at Sunny Bank Farm Salterforth,
John Hartley 53 Farmer of 170 acres b Brogden
Mary Hartley 39 b Gisburn
All children born Rimington
James 20
Alice 17
Sarah 14
Robert 11
Elizabeth 8


In the 1861 census John Hartley is farming at Great Todber, Rimington.

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Re: ELIZABETH HARTLEY QUESTION

Post by Stanley » 07 Dec 2014, 04:41

All this rings a bell with me Wendy. Did we chase Elizabeth Hartley down on the old site and wasn't there some confusion then about two Elizabeths? My problem is that I can't read the index cards!
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Re: ELIZABETH HARTLEY QUESTION

Post by Marilyn » 07 Dec 2014, 05:17

I can't quite read John Hartley's ( father to Elizabeth) occupation on the wedding entry. The writing is terribly pale, even when I zoom in on the screen and it printed paler than it looked on the screen too. I know it doesn't say Farmer...but couls say Overseer?..
But her age is 17 ( and she was only JUST 17) and they were married by banns...so I cant account for the Manchester wedding ( and whilst her first born may have been a " honeymoon baby" I can't say she was pregnant at the time she got married with any certainty. If she was, she was only "a little bit pregnant" ha ha!

She is 17 in 1879 ( marriage), she is 19 in 1881 Census ( which adds up)
In 1891 she is 29 ( which adds up)
In 1901 Census she is 38.
In 1911 Census she is suddenly 51.

Thanks for the pointer anyway. I am sure I can lose an entire afternoon delving into it. Must look up where Rimmington is too, as that is not a place I have heard of.

Post Script...looked up Rimmington. Lovely country!
The other thing I can tell you Wendy, is that James and Elizabeth lived at Bracewell Farm..(i think they died there). All of their children ran farms...their youngest son - our Great Gran's brother - ran Standridge Farm. They were John and Maggie Whittaker.
I mentioned our Great Grandparents to you before, Wendy. They ran Lower Lea Farm for a time.
I would be more specific than that but it has taken me over an hour to pack all the paperwork away in perfect order ( much teeth grinding) to take to Cazza's tomorrow and I am not going through it now after all that effort.

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Re: ELIZABETH HARTLEY QUESTION

Post by Wendyf » 07 Dec 2014, 09:01

John Hartley's occupation is "Farmer", it's Thomas Whittaker whose occupation is doubtful, but I would guess that it is "overlooker".
I cant find John or Mary in the 1881 census.
There is a birth recorded at Bridge Chapel, Barlick of a John Hartley on February 3rd 1818, son of Jane & Richard Hartley, weaver & farmer of Newfield Edge or High Close House. You can see the original entry on Ancestry.

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Re: ELIZABETH HARTLEY QUESTION

Post by Marilyn » 07 Dec 2014, 09:12

( derrrrrr)... Yes...of course! You are right. The male is always on the top line of the wedding entry isn't he...
I've had that print out up to just about every window in the house trying to read it, and ran upstairs to the study twice to find different magnifying glasses. The thing is, I have perfect eyesight, but it printed so faintly. Will have to go back, save it, put it through Photoshop and enhance the contrast I think.

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