WE ARE WHAT WE EAT

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Re: WE ARE WHAT WE EAT

Post by Stanley » 17 Aug 2018, 04:14

See THIS Lncet report on low carb diets for yet another example of how, with the best intentions, the scientific community muddies the flow of simple effective advice. The great majority of people who see this will immediately leap to the conclusion that carbs are good for you and overdose on chips instead of reading the whole report and understanding that a varied diet is the best with modifications if external factors like Diabetes are present.
I shall continue to sensibly restrict my carbs but make sure I get plenty of veggies, pulses and nuts.
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Re: WE ARE WHAT WE EAT

Post by Wendyf » 17 Aug 2018, 07:54

I'm taking time to have a good look at this before I comment. I just wish the BBC wouldn't make studies like this headline news!

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Re: WE ARE WHAT WE EAT

Post by Stanley » 17 Aug 2018, 09:05

:good:
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Re: WE ARE WHAT WE EAT

Post by Tizer » 17 Aug 2018, 09:51

In defence of the scientists I would point out that they publish their results in scientific journals to bring them to the attention of other scientists (and in the case of medical journals like The Lancet and BMJ, for doctors too). This functions to spread the new information among the scientific community and to allow other scientists to assess and criticise the work. Once this assessment and criticism has taken place there will often be further work needing to be done to confirm or alter the conclusions. They are not publishing the work as advice for the public. Unfortunately, in recent times universities, research institutions and companies have chosen to promote themselves by setting up PR departments which write press releases and send them out to the news media. Another source of pressure is the research funding bodies which began to encourage promotion of the work they are funding. Other changes are the increased press releases put out by journals and the rise of open source publishing which gives free access to the public including the news journalists. The research scientist is `pig in the middle' with no choice but to go along with the PR activity or lose their funding and possibly their job.

As you say, Wendy, it's difficult to weigh up the report quickly and it's rather complicated, and no doubt there will be a lot of misinterpretation triggered in the the news media. A couple of things I'll point out. The study is based on answers to questionnaires which is always open to criticism - people tend tell to the researcher what they think he/she wants to hear. There is also concern that obesity is playing a part in the results. My own concern is the use of the term `carbohydrate' as if it was a well-defined class of molecules, as are proteins or fats. There are much bigger differences among the types of carbohydrates; for example, simple sugars, starch (normal starch and resistant starch), non-starch polysaccharides, indigestible polysaccharides etc. So talking about carbohydrates as a whole, as in this study, could be misleading.

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Re: WE ARE WHAT WE EAT

Post by Wendyf » 17 Aug 2018, 14:48

This is a response to the article in the Lancet from cardiologist Dr Aseem Malhotra.

https://inews.co.uk/opinion/comment/die ... hs-doctor/

And another from Dr Andreas Eenfelt who runs the excellent Dietdoctor website.

https://www.dietdoctor.com/all-over-med ... orten-life

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Re: WE ARE WHAT WE EAT

Post by Big Kev » 17 Aug 2018, 16:49

Wendyf wrote:
17 Aug 2018, 14:48
This is a response to the article in the Lancet from cardiologist Dr Aseem Malhotra.

https://inews.co.uk/opinion/comment/die ... hs-doctor/

And another from Dr Andreas Eenfelt who runs the excellent Dietdoctor website.

https://www.dietdoctor.com/all-over-med ... orten-life
I'm sticking with low-carb :-)
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Re: WE ARE WHAT WE EAT

Post by plaques » 17 Aug 2018, 17:28

Yes, but what about my Fish and Chips?

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Re: WE ARE WHAT WE EAT

Post by Wendyf » 17 Aug 2018, 17:43

I can't believe the coverage of this on the BBC news this evening, it bore no relation to the Lancet article whatsoever! Of course Colin will continue with his low carb diet, if he didn't he would be taking insulin and looking forward to losing limbs and suffering kidney failure within the next few years.

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Re: WE ARE WHAT WE EAT

Post by Stanley » 18 Aug 2018, 02:42

I shall do the same, keep aiming for low carb but in view of my milder condition, not going into terminal angst if I occasionally ingest some carbs......
I repeat my point about the publishing of the report in the way it has been done. Too many people will take it as licence to eat as many carbs as they fancy, many of them the worst kind......
Thank God we are better informed and more likely to have a sane response!
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Re: WE ARE WHAT WE EAT

Post by Stanley » 21 Aug 2018, 06:01

I've always believed that good grub is the foundation of good health and have always practised that when feeding dogs. I have a simple rule, never feed a dog anything you wouldn't eat yourself. Jack's wonderful recovery has reinforced that belief! The funny thing is that in the end best mince is cheaper than proprietary dog food which is the waste bin of the food processing industries. I know exactly what goes into protein granules and believe me if you saw the process you wouldn't touch it with a barge pole! It's amazing what I learned when maintaining the boilers at rendering plants.
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Re: WE ARE WHAT WE EAT

Post by Sue » 21 Aug 2018, 06:41

Wendyf wrote:
17 Aug 2018, 17:43
I can't believe the coverage of this on the BBC news this evening, it bore no relation to the Lancet article whatsoever! Of course Colin will continue with his low carb diet, if he didn't he would be taking insulin and looking forward to losing limbs and suffering kidney failure within the next few years.
Initially that is what I thought, but the article was about quantity, and no mention of what is a low medium or large portion. Similarly no mention about wether people on the low diets are eating solely by choice often to lose weight or eating less as a medical necessity. Without the low carb diets the diabetics may well have an even higher chance of an early death. The study was also flawed as it admitted that it relied on people remembering what they had eaten rather than a controlled scientific study .

I take studies like that with a pinch of salt ( sorry about the dietry link there) . I remember when I was on HRT as a short term necessity. There were a lot of studies out there about my life being shortened, increase risk of breast cancer. My gynaecologist tried to reassure me and gave me the paper to read. It clearly stated that it was not a properly controlled study as it was not possible to get a large enough sample of people who did not smoke, drink etc that are also factors in breast cancer. That study is now no longer used as the guidelines as other more controlled ones indicate there is a very low chance of increasing the risk of breast cancer and that depends on many other predisposing factors.

So many studies are that, studies, and not controlled scientific investigations. They involve asking questions and performing statistical analyses on the answers rather than setting up a set of know parameters and looking for the outcome. The analysis will only be as good as the questions asked which so often are not specific or accurate enough in themselves. How often have you done a questionnaire to find your preferred answer is not there and you have to use a response that is not quite right.

I will stick with the lancet version and the scientific versions as per the proramme we watched on TV. I have reduced my carbs, never eaten many anyway in recent years, reduced my fats ( did years ago ) and increase fruit and veg. Moderation in all things.

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Re: WE ARE WHAT WE EAT

Post by Marilyn » 21 Aug 2018, 08:47

(Sigh)
I have to admit being confused by food messages too.
I remember the fat filled frying pans and chip pans of my childhood, and meals almost devoid of veg.
We now eat at least 5 or 6 veg ( often steamed) with our evening meal. We eat fish every week, and red meat only once a week. Nothing we eat is dripping with fat.
I refuse to feel guilty about anything I eat.
Can't tell you when I last had a piece of cake, or biscuit, or anything remotely sweet! ( apart from the odd sugar free lolly).
Mind you, we use real milk. ( full fat )
You just have to go with your gut I think.
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Re: WE ARE WHAT WE EAT

Post by Wendyf » 21 Aug 2018, 10:03

I eat lots of natural saturated fat now, and though we don't eat masses of red meat I have no fear about eating it, why would something that we have survived well on for generations suddenly start being bad for us. It's the excess of sugar, highly refined grains and manufactured seed oils that are doing us harm.
I'm not afraid of a glass or two of red wine either. :laugh5:

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Re: WE ARE WHAT WE EAT

Post by Marilyn » 21 Aug 2018, 21:38

There is nothing to fear about a glass or two of Red Wine...gosh...I can't believe I forgot to mention it myself :laugh5:

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Re: WE ARE WHAT WE EAT

Post by Stanley » 22 Aug 2018, 02:28

I go with Wendy, and always have even before i started to look into nutrition. I went with my gut and experience. I never believed the furore against saturated fat and if cholesterol was that bed, why did God put it in eggs and mother's milk? not 'scientific' I know but equally strong evidence. I also have the benefit of a life long study, I am in my 83rd year of ignoring the doomsayers and advertisers..... Sue is right, moderation and burning fat off is the key and I would also add variety. A little of what you fancy does you good.....
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Re: WE ARE WHAT WE EAT

Post by Tizer » 22 Aug 2018, 09:01

Wendyf wrote:
21 Aug 2018, 10:03
...why would something that we have survived well on for generations suddenly start being bad for us....
Forgive me for playing devil's advocate, Wendy, but if you apply this argument to meat and fat why not also to carbohydrate? :extrawink:

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Re: WE ARE WHAT WE EAT

Post by Wendyf » 22 Aug 2018, 16:10

Tizer wrote:
22 Aug 2018, 09:01
Wendyf wrote:
21 Aug 2018, 10:03
...why would something that we have survived well on for generations suddenly start being bad for us....
Forgive me for playing devil's advocate, Wendy, but if you apply this argument to meat and fat why not also to carbohydrate? :extrawink:
Well, while meat and dairy products have remained pretty much the same, starchy carbohydrates have not only been increasingly refined but grains have been developed to boost yield at the expense of nutrients.
It's the amount of starchy carbohydrates we eat today that's bad for us, combined with added sugar and manufactured fats.
Fat and protein are essential to life, carbohydrates aren't!

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Re: WE ARE WHAT WE EAT

Post by Stanley » 23 Aug 2018, 03:22

That's a good sensible reply Wendy. I remember reading a book called 'Who Killed Vitamins' by James Fergusson and remember being surprised when he looked at the potato. The Vitamin 'C' content used to be high but under modern methods of cultivation it has dropped to almost zero. A good illustration of what the loss of soil quality has done to our food. By the way the book is still worth reading, it goes into the Murder of Jack Drummond and his family...... The main man who kept us nourished well or even better in WW2 under rationing.
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Re: WE ARE WHAT WE EAT

Post by Sue » 23 Aug 2018, 06:27

amount of starchy carbohydrates we eat today that's bad for us, combined with added sugar and manufactured fats.
Fat and protein are essential to life, carbohydrates aren't!





Sorry, carbohydrates are essential to life that is what we respire in a complex chemical pathway releasing energy as it is converted to carbon dioxide and water. The energy is then stored in other chemicals such as ATP Adenosine triphosphate, to release it as we need it . Its the quantity that is crucial. Whatever we eat, it has to be converted to a form that we can respire, evetually joining the sane biochemical pathways as carbohydrate. Too much carbohydrate and the body coverts it to fat. Excessive fat is stored in and around vital organs.

As Tiz said carbohydrates are a diverse group. Also they are pure chemicals. Grains etc are the source, the carbohydrates in them remain the same chemically. I do hate the way the words carbohydrates fats and proteins are tossed around as if they are each just one thing. They are all complex chemicals that the body has evolved to cope with, some better than others. We NEED all of these nutrients .

What we need to control is quantity and type. Too little carbohydrate and we have to respire other things like fat. Fat should not be eaten for an energy source it is needed as a building block in cell membranes and in hormones as well as many other things. As a matter of interest carbohydrates are need for that too. Too little fat and carbohydrate and we respire protein. This should rarely happen....we are on the way to malnutrition here. Just look at those poor undernourished children in famine areas with their swollen livers... Protein or should I say the amino acids that they contain are needed for every other conceivable use in the body but not energy production

Nutrition is complex more so to the scientist as Tiz said, studies are made for scientists to evaluate way before they become advice to the public. As for the dairy diets of our past in general we have no idea what the long term effects would have been as so many died young of other causes accidents and infectious diseases.

I will say it again eat a good balanced diet containg fats proteins AND Carbohydrates. The balance is so important, avoid excesses.
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Re: WE ARE WHAT WE EAT

Post by Stanley » 23 Aug 2018, 07:24

We are so lucky to have advice like that Sue from people we respect. I agree with all you say and whilst I limit carbs as an aid to holding Type 2 at bay, I am taking in enough, as part of a varied diet, to do the best I can to be in balance. If the way I feel is anything to go by, I'm doing all right. So far so good!!
Carry on educating us please.......
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Re: WE ARE WHAT WE EAT

Post by Marilyn » 23 Aug 2018, 07:58

It is so confusing, isn't it? We face having to constantly reduce our intake as we age. I don't have Diabetes, but hubby does but it is "diet controlled" which means basically I have to eat the same too. Occasionally I want to "bust loose" and be "normal, but we have lived with restrictions for so long that I no longer have an appetite for the occasional bit of cake with a drizzle of cream. I don't know who is actually eating all the donuts/cake/chocolate in the world, but it isn't us! I struggle to feed our adult kids and their offspring because they all have their allergies and aversions. To be honest, I would rather not have folk for a meal. I remember the days when a Spaghetti Bolognese and a bottle of Red was a nice meal with friends! When did the world get so damn confusing?

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Re: WE ARE WHAT WE EAT

Post by Wendyf » 23 Aug 2018, 08:12

I'm no scientist Sue so it will take me a while to get back to you on that!
In the meantime, unless you only eat pure fat your body is getting some carbs and all the nutrients it needs from green vegetables and fruit, protein and dairy products. Research now shows that our bodies run more efficiently using fat as an energy source, which is why so many endurance athletes are turning to ketogenic diets.
Hundreds of thousands of people are improving their health by adopting a low carbohydrate diet, including Colin who would probably heading for circulation problems and kidney failure now if he hadn't restricted his intake to less than 50gms a day. He has so much more energy now, and so do I.

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Re: WE ARE WHAT WE EAT

Post by Marilyn » 23 Aug 2018, 08:16

And...eaten out of beautiful pottery bowls...which I still have...who wouldn't like a lovely "Spag Bol" with a glass of Red and, dare I say, a lovely bit of Crusty Bread?
I can hear our lot now saying "I can't do carbs" and "I don't do meat" and "we don't eat bread" and "tomatoes give me hives" and "did you put chilli in this because I can't eat it ", and ( I'm going overboard here but "is it safe to eat out of pottery bowls?"
Sheesh...find another cook that cares!

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Re: WE ARE WHAT WE EAT

Post by Marilyn » 23 Aug 2018, 10:33

On a personal note, I do find that if I eat anything at all after 6 pm, I don't sleep well. So I avoid eating anything after that time. Given that I don't tend to eat breakfast and tend not to eat before 11.30am....that is quite a fast I suppose. I don't know as it feels natural to me. I usually have Cheese and Crackers ( my favourite being Triple Cream Brie Cheese with Water Crackers) then and just a main meal at night ( no desserts or puddings!) so my main meal needs to hold as many nutrients/Veg as possible.
I never drink soft drink, preferring Water. I don't drink Tea or Coffee after 3pm.

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Re: WE ARE WHAT WE EAT

Post by Sue » 23 Aug 2018, 10:43

I have read so many of these articles over the years and for every positive article there is one to counteract it. Yes gram per gram fat releases more energy than carbohydrates, and yes there is evidence that as less CO 2 is produced it puts less stress on the lungs of athletes and sufferers of COPD. But most of these articles are assuming a person is ill eg diabetic, obese or an athlete. Few refer to a normal person with normal energy requirements and no significant disease. Indeed few scientic experiments have been done on the norm, many are for athletic reasons to improve performance or illhealth to ease problems and remedy situations. In the athletic situation it is to reduce lactic acid production which puts a biochemical loading on oxygen to get rid of it, rather than generate more ATP.

I think we could argue the case for ever on this but I hesitate to see what I have learnt over the years be chucked out. The key words are always balanced and quantity. Ideally the body should be respiring a mixture of all 3 but primarliy carbohydrate. But yes you can live without the carbohydrate for energy, I never said you couldn’t get sufficient from meat fruit and veg, though meat has little carbohydrate. I simply said quantity and balance of all nutrients was the key. An all fat diet can run into severe possible problems of overeating and the side effects of excessive fat in the diet are enormous and not necessarily cholesterol related . Similarly a high carbohydrate diet can result in an excessive build up of fat or an inibility of the insulin produced to be able to cope with quantity absorbed. Thus extremes of both are bad for us but the right quantity is not.
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