COMPUTERS, THE AGONY AND THE ECSTASY

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Re: COMPUTERS, THE AGONY AND THE ECSTASY

Post by Tizer » 14 Mar 2013, 10:42

I'm swapping computers with Mrs Tiz so that she can have the one with Ubuntu 12.04 as she does more of the `secure' online work with bank accounts etc. I'm taking hers which still has 10.04 and may have hardware problems - as well as not accepting 12.04 it freezes several times in each session. None of the home computer repairs people in this area have any Linux experience and I might end up having to buy new bits of hardware until I find the problem, so I looked on the web to see if anyone is selling new PCs pre-loaded with Ubuntu 12.04 (I don't want to get involved in building one at the moment - I've got enough on my plate!). I found a business called Elpa Tech in Andover which builds and sells PCs with a choice of Windows, Ubuntu or no OS, and several different PC specs. It looks good, with a budget Ubuntu PC at £220, standard £270 and performance £360. I'd probably go for the performance model described here:
http://www.elpatech.co.uk/performance.htm
I wonder what Pluggy thinks of these PCs?

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Re: COMPUTERS, THE AGONY AND THE ECSTASY

Post by Pluggy » 14 Mar 2013, 19:10

OK, I just built a very similar machine to their 'Performance' version with Windows 8 for a Client although with a 500GB Hard drive and 4 GB of Ram. It has 6 Rear USB & 2 Front, 2 of the rear are the new fangled USB 3.0. I'm charging £380 with Windows and all his files transferred from his old PC. The extra 4 GB of RAM and the Bigger hard drive would add about £30. at todays prices. I'd do a similar machine with Ubuntu 12.04 for £340 including a Keyboard & Rat with the files from an old machine transferred. The Windo$e costs me around £70. Mine has reasonably quality bits in it (ASUS board, Kingston RAM, Toshiba HDD etc. Cherry Keyboard, Gigabyte Rat ), what's in the sites isn't specified.

I'm too cheap.......
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Re: COMPUTERS, THE AGONY AND THE ECSTASY

Post by Tizer » 14 Mar 2013, 20:42

Very interesting and I'm in touch with Pluggy about it!

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Re: COMPUTERS, THE AGONY AND THE ECSTASY

Post by Stanley » 15 Mar 2013, 05:36

Interesting and unfortunately it's triggered me off into my 'get an even faster computer before you die' mode. (I know, it's silly but what the hell....)

At the moment I have a quad core 4x2.83gb chip running on an ASUS board with 8gb of RAM. Is there a sensible faster CPU? How much RAM will the system support? In other words, what's the dream machine?
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Re: COMPUTERS, THE AGONY AND THE ECSTASY

Post by Tizer » 15 Mar 2013, 10:23

As Calluna said, "No pockets in a shroud"! Having an ultra-fast PC would be more useful (and safer) than having a parachute jump.

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Re: COMPUTERS, THE AGONY AND THE ECSTASY

Post by Pluggy » 15 Mar 2013, 11:13

I can certainly accommodate building you a new PC Stanley, but the one I've just built and the similar machine for Tizer aren't quite up to recentish quad core levels. The I3 is dual core with hyperthreading which appears to be a quad core, but isn't up to a true quad core. Having said that, to use a bit of colloquial language "It'll lake wi" Ubuntu 12.04 . You'd need to spend serious money to get much above what you already have. A top end I7 would be faster than what you have, but the CPU alone would cost almost what Tiz is paying for his new PC. The I7 is a quad core with hyperthreading thus appearing to be an 8 core. Windows 8 has dispensed with the 1 graph per apparent CPU core system Task Manager has used since XP, It just shows one graph for the whole lot now. Ubuntu 12.04 still has one graph per core albeit with the graphs superimposed. So it still looks impressive :)

The board I'm using for Tiz's box supports up to 16 GB of RAM. Asus's most expensive board supports up to 32GB of RAM, the board alone is more expensive than Tiz's PC. You're probably looking around £1000 for a new top end Desktop. As is the case with much of life you get what you pay for and there is the law of diminishing returns. You can buy 10 low end Vauxhalls for the price of a low end Bentley, whether the Bentley is 10 times better is open to interpretation.....
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Re: COMPUTERS, THE AGONY AND THE ECSTASY

Post by Big Kev » 15 Mar 2013, 11:33

I'm considering going back to a desktop machine. My laptop crashes when I use Photoshop CS6, I've had to go back to CS4. The laptop uses the Intel 4 series chipset, for graphics, and I believe this is where the issue lies. I can't upgrade the graphics card as it's integral to the board. Unless anyone knows different...
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Re: COMPUTERS, THE AGONY AND THE ECSTASY

Post by Tizer » 15 Mar 2013, 14:54

I've placed my order with Pluggy (Stephen Taylforth) for the 8GB RAM/1TB hard disk PC with Ubuntu 12.04 64-bit installed and look forward to getting it in due course.

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Re: COMPUTERS, THE AGONY AND THE ECSTASY

Post by Pluggy » 15 Mar 2013, 15:53

The vast majority of laptops can't have the graphics upgraded, (there are a small number with separate graphics cards, they are always propriety and the upgrade is more a possibility than a practicality). I like my desktop because I know where to find it. My daughter and wife sometimes misplace their laptops or somebody else moves it because its in the way. My boring old desktop is always in he same place its been for donkey's years, I don't have to go hunting for it. (That and it has a screen far bigger than any laptop, nice for tired old eyes).
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Re: COMPUTERS, THE AGONY AND THE ECSTASY

Post by sambo3d » 15 Mar 2013, 16:36

Greeting fellow nerds!
I have a monster desktop, it's actually a server motherboard in an extended ATX case, with dual opterons, only dualcore at the minute, but I'm aiming to switch them for octocores *salivates over 16 cores*. My laptop, is a fairly budget acer, though it does have an integrated graphics card, as opose to my old laptop which had a graphics controller (which effectlvely simulates a graphics card by stealing cpu and Ram, that was horrible). I started using the latop as a remote desktop for the larger computer via the wireless network. The bundled remote desktop software in windows was dire, it still used the GPU of the laptop effectively negating half the purpose, still it used the destop CPU which was nice. I then moved on to HP's remote graphics sender, which used the desktop CPU and GPU, only using the laptop inards to render a clone of the destop screen and duplicate the mouse and keyboard actions.... this lasted about a month before the soldering on the power jack gave from frequent pluggin in and out, I replaced, but the new jack lasted about 2 weeks... I have since migrated back from the couch to the office. ;)

As for the CS6 problem, try reducing the scratch disc size in photoshop, and/or maxing the RAM in the latop. Also you could try plugging in a second hard disc and setting the scratch disc to a drive seperate to the instalation.... Photoshop is famously a memory devourer.

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Re: COMPUTERS, THE AGONY AND THE ECSTASY

Post by Stanley » 16 Mar 2013, 05:45

Welcome to the site Sam. Not sure about nerds though, I'm definitely not one!
Pluggy, You don't surprise me and of course the FMII wasn't cheap! I've wondered for a while why I didn't see quad core chips advertised, must be because they are all trying to keep a competitive price. In truth, my 4x2.83chip is plenty fast enough for me and the machine is still brilliant. On the whole, I think that when I go over to 12.4 64bit I'll have a word with you about a refurb. Two new 1tb HDD, a new power supply and jack the RAM to as much as we can get in the tower, 32gb wouldn't be out of the question. I always remember the late Big Harry telling me about ten years ago when they were working with multiple CPUs under a Sun Microsoft system, they ordered some new boxes and the supplier made a mistake and gave them an enormous RAM. He said that they were brilliant and he reckoned the best way of upgrading a machine was give it more RAM.
As for laptops. I've never understood using laptops as desktops because my keyboard takes less table space than a laptop, I'd have the big screen anyway and there's plenty of room on the floor for a tower. The tower gives you room to put everything in and it gets plenty of fresh air! My CPU never gets hot. There is also the problem of laptops elevating scrotal temperature and lowering fertility!
So, thanks for the input. I shall come back to you Pluggy with a definite upgrade spec as soon as you think 12.4 64 bit is a good move for me, we'll do both at the same time and start with a clean HDD for the OS. At the same time I'll gat another external drive and do a clean copy of the data disk for transfer. The old one can be a back up in case everything went pear-shaped! 3 levels of back-up can't be bad!
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Re: COMPUTERS, THE AGONY AND THE ECSTASY

Post by Tizer » 16 Mar 2013, 10:16

Stanley wrote:There is also the problem of laptops elevating scrotal temperature and lowering fertility!
Have you got plans that you haven't told us about? :grin:

I've always understood that RAM is the most important factor for people like you and I who handle big documents, lots of data and use several applications at the same time. Processor speed is more for gamers than us. I'm going for a terabyte HDD instead of my present 500GB but in reality it's far, far more than I need...on the other hand I might as well have the extra space just in case!

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Re: COMPUTERS, THE AGONY AND THE ECSTASY

Post by Pluggy » 16 Mar 2013, 10:33

Having a dual socket server board is cheating......

A server board probably isn't ideal for general use, they are built with server duties in mind, in general servers are all (or mostly) about getting stuff off the the hard drive and getting it 'on the wire' as fast as possible. They tend to be weak in the graphics area especially since it doesn't enter into the equation.
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Re: COMPUTERS, THE AGONY AND THE ECSTASY

Post by Pluggy » 16 Mar 2013, 11:57

Stanley wrote:Welcome to the site Sam. Not sure about nerds though, I'm definitely not one!
Pluggy, You don't surprise me and of course the FMII wasn't cheap! I've wondered for a while why I didn't see quad core chips advertised, must be because they are all trying to keep a competitive price. In truth, my 4x2.83chip is plenty fast enough for me and the machine is still brilliant. On the whole, I think that when I go over to 12.4 64bit I'll have a word with you about a refurb. Two new 1tb HDD, a new power supply and jack the RAM to as much as we can get in the tower, 32gb wouldn't be out of the question. I always remember the late Big Harry telling me about ten years ago when they were working with multiple CPUs under a Sun Microsoft system, they ordered some new boxes and the supplier made a mistake and gave them an enormous RAM. He said that they were brilliant and he reckoned the best way of upgrading a machine was give it more RAM.
As for laptops. I've never understood using laptops as desktops because my keyboard takes less table space than a laptop, I'd have the big screen anyway and there's plenty of room on the floor for a tower. The tower gives you room to put everything in and it gets plenty of fresh air! My CPU never gets hot. There is also the problem of laptops elevating scrotal temperature and lowering fertility!
So, thanks for the input. I shall come back to you Pluggy with a definite upgrade spec as soon as you think 12.4 64 bit is a good move for me, we'll do both at the same time and start with a clean HDD for the OS. At the same time I'll gat another external drive and do a clean copy of the data disk for transfer. The old one can be a back up in case everything went pear-shaped! 3 levels of back-up can't be bad!
I've since tested 64 Bit Ubuntu 12.04 on a customers machine. it behaved as expected (as in just the same as 32 Bit) although I didn't give it a thorough workout and it eventually went out with the 32 bit version because I bottled out and the computer only had 2 GB of RAM anyway. (I do do repair machines with Ubuntu, this laptop came in with a trashed hard drive - grandkids had knocked it onto the floor and the HDD took an aversion to the abuse, no recovery media, and he wanted it cheap, agreed to a second hand drive and Linux, he'd met it before)
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Re: COMPUTERS, THE AGONY AND THE ECSTASY

Post by Stanley » 17 Mar 2013, 05:54

Tiz, don't worry, I have made my last statement in the procreation stakes!
What a good forum this is for common-sense computing. My ideas are firming up and knowing me Pluggy, you won't be surprised to hear that I am tending towards the nuclear solution. Do the refurb and start afresh with 12.4 64 bit with new drives and as much Ram as the board will accept. If I hadn't got the old IBM upstairs still giving faithful service after all these years I would go for a new box but I can't bear to retire the old Activa, such a good machine! (I think it has 250mb of Ram and a 350mhz chip with a 6gb HDD.) Amazing how fast it was with this spec. I always put it down to high end components properly matched and set up. So, basically it's down to you Plugs. As soon as you assure me 12.4 is a runner we'll do it.
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Re: COMPUTERS, THE AGONY AND THE ECSTASY

Post by Tizer » 17 Mar 2013, 10:13

I'm fast getting used to 12.04 now and finding the new ways of working OK. It was my PC that accepted the 12.04 upgrade and I was using it for a while then Mrs Tiz and I swapped when hers refused to take 12.04. That means I changed from v.10 to 12, then back to 10 and that's a good way to weigh up the new version. I find the `Dash' very useful on v.12 for offering up recently used applications and allowing me to type in the names of others to open them when I don't have an icon for them. On the old version I used Alt F2 (Run Application) quite often but the Dash offers this plus recent applications opened other ways. I'm still going to the right corner of windows to close them when they are often at the left in 12. The new column of icons down the left screen border does more than the old style icons - e.g. when you have an application open the icon has a little arrow at its side. More than one window of the application and there's more than one little arrow. With multiple applications open you can click one of the arrowed icons and get smaller versions of all the windows at once on the screen, then click to go from one to another.

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Re: COMPUTERS, THE AGONY AND THE ECSTASY

Post by Stanley » 18 Mar 2013, 06:05

Thanks for that Tiz. Encouraging. It will be less of a leap than it was from Windows to Ubuntu...... I'm happy to change Pluggy, let me know when you are ready....
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Re: COMPUTERS, THE AGONY AND THE ECSTASY

Post by Tripps » 18 Mar 2013, 11:19

This may be of interest to others, in fact I'd rather like to know if anyone else is affected.

I had an Email from Yahoo this morning saying that my account had been accessed from an unregistered device in the Philippines, using my password. They invited me to click on a link provided to change the password, and register a mobile phone number for future contact.

Of course I didn't use their link, but went to Yahoo directly from my browser. I then searched the site for "close yahoo account". Whereupon I got a message which said not to worry if I had been asked for a mobile number, as they were asking all users, and it was a genuine message. Was the message about the hacker genuine? - I suspect not - but would a company of the size and reputation of Yahoo lie to me? Who knows. If so their plan has backfired, I have closed the account, despite them trying to prevent me from doing so.

Another matter - I downloaded Google Earth last night, and despite very carefully asking that no additions were also downloaded, ended up with unwanted search software. I spent quite a while getting rid of all the unwanted software. I have had similar experiences recently, and am getting a bit tired of it all. Ironically - Google Earth didn't even work.

Have we reached a phase in the development of the internet, where everyone thinks they can be a billionaire, and no one at all can be trusted? Or am I just a bit naive, and it was ever so?
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Re: COMPUTERS, THE AGONY AND THE ECSTASY

Post by PanBiker » 18 Mar 2013, 11:34

Most of the "inadvertent" add-on's attached to downloads are security based or browser plug-ins that are invariably trial versions that will ultimately prompt for payment or registration in some way. This in itself possibly leading to details being "shared" even further. It's part of the price you pay (whether you like it or not) for "free" software.

You are dead right, it can be quite a problem during an install to deselect the stuff you don't want!

Your bottom line analysis of the reason for it all is probably bang on as well Dave.

Will now wait for the Linux lads to tell us that it is all squeaky clean over in Ubuntu land :smile:
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Re: COMPUTERS, THE AGONY AND THE ECSTASY

Post by Tizer » 18 Mar 2013, 12:18

Guess what, I was just about to write "It's all squeaky clean over in Ubuntu land" but then saw Ian's last line! I'm sure it's not all squeaky clean really but I do feel safer using Ubuntu Linux than Windows. There is a vast amount of tried & tested free software available from the official repository and I've never felt like any of that was spying on me or forcing extras onto my PC. The people behind the Ubuntu OS seem to have the user in mind rather than making money for themselves and go out of their way to make it user-friendly. The system is slightly more demanding than Windows but easy enough for any of you folk reading this thread, and the extra effort is well rewarded.

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Re: COMPUTERS, THE AGONY AND THE ECSTASY

Post by Pluggy » 18 Mar 2013, 20:05

Panbikers woes are one of the major reasons I left the Microsoft camp years ago. All 'free' Windows software has an agenda. Linux is free and there is no agenda, you download some software for linux and there are no nasty surprises that come with it. When you really learn to drive it, going back to a Windows box is like having your left arm cut off, you miss the flexibility.
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Re: COMPUTERS, THE AGONY AND THE ECSTASY

Post by Stanley » 19 Mar 2013, 05:26

As Pluggy knows, I am not a full user of Ubuntu because I refuse to learn anything about the most powerful tool, the synaptic manager is it? The good news is that I have never needed it so if you're considering Ubu8ntu, stop thinking and just do it. You'll never go back if it's set up properly. That's where we score in Barlick with Pluggy. He sat it up, I use it. End of story. Would never consider going back.
I gave up on Google Earth three years ago when I got the FMII and went onto Linux. My life has not been damaged.
News from Plugs this morning that the FMII is obsolete in that many of the components are different now than three years ago (I got it in Feb 2010). It still uses DD2 Ram for instance. So I am having a rethink and suspect I shall end up getting a new box from 3B who built this one and it's been fine. I shall have a bit of a think......
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Re: COMPUTERS, THE AGONY AND THE ECSTASY

Post by Pluggy » 19 Mar 2013, 06:21

You'll not miss the Synaptic Package Manager when it isn't there in 12.04.... Its been superseded (No change there then ;) ).
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Re: COMPUTERS, THE AGONY AND THE ECSTASY

Post by Stanley » 19 Mar 2013, 07:50

Do you think you could install 12.4 on this box?

CiT Vantage Gaming Case (4 x Blue LED Fans ) MIDI ATX
with Upgraded 750W 12cm , 2 x 12V Rail PSU
Intel Quad i5 3570K 3.4GHz 6MB CPU
( K = Unlocked for Over Clocking )
ASUS P8H77-V LE M/Board
16GB DDR3 1600 Ram ( 3.25Gb in 32bit OS )
2 x 2TB SATAIII HDD
int. 8 Channel Sound
2GB DDR5 Geforce GTX650 with HDMI (PCI-E 16X)
22X +/- DVD-RW D.Layer
10/100/1000 LAN, USB 2.0/3.0

Give me an opinion on the spec?
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Re: COMPUTERS, THE AGONY AND THE ECSTASY

Post by Big Kev » 19 Mar 2013, 08:14

Stanley wrote:Do you think you could install 12.4 on this box?

CiT Vantage Gaming Case (4 x Blue LED Fans ) MIDI ATX
with Upgraded 750W 12cm , 2 x 12V Rail PSU
Intel Quad i5 3570K 3.4GHz 6MB CPU
( K = Unlocked for Over Clocking )
ASUS P8H77-V LE M/Board
16GB DDR3 1600 Ram ( 3.25Gb in 32bit OS )
2 x 2TB SATAIII HDD
int. 8 Channel Sound
2GB DDR5 Geforce GTX650 with HDMI (PCI-E 16X)
22X +/- DVD-RW D.Layer
10/100/1000 LAN, USB 2.0/3.0

Give me an opinion on the spec?
You planning on running multiple, resource hungry programs? Seems like a bit of overkill for surfing the net, sending emails and word processing. It'll all be obsolete in 6 month's time and you'll want to do it again :grin:
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