POLITICS CORNER

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Stanley
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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Stanley » 09 Jan 2019, 04:57

David, I am worried about your obsession with this woman......
P, my mind works along the same lines and I agree with you. Problem is we can't sell our shares in UK PLC, the price has tanked!
On a slightly different tangent, I agree that something should be done about the unruly scenes on the Green and outside Parliament and the attacks on Anna Soubry are totally unacceptable simply on the grounds of common decency and good manners. However, my mind went back to Piketty's forecast of social unrest, the rise of Populist movements and the growth of extreme reactions like anti-Semitism (or any other 'anti' movement) and perhaps what we are seeing is a sign of a coarsening of what is seen as 'acceptable' reaction and criticism. I believe that this is a reaction to circumstances like the deterioration we are seeing right across public life, from industry to Parliament and the conduct of politics where normal standards of ethics, honour and reasonable behaviour are suspended, often for personal gain. I see an erosion of the value inherent in principled 'good behaviour'. As China said in another topic, perhaps this means that the fault dear Brutus lies in ourselves, that we are underlings..... It could be me that is out of step but I remember things Like Lord Carrington's resignation and the passion of people like Nye Bevan, both based on deep personal belief and altruism. I do not see this today.
MPs are on a sticky wicket when they complain about what is essentially a re-run of the ethics of politics at the moment. They are not setting a good example and I don't really see how police action can be expected to deal with this without running the risk of a barrage of criticism about strangling 'free speech'.
Yesterday's vote on the budget amendment could be a straw in the wind. Are the MPs stirring at last?
Later.... See THIS for the latest developments in the government shut-down in the US. Trump is accused of 'governing by temper tantrum'.
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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Tizer » 09 Jan 2019, 12:22

Stanley wrote:
09 Jan 2019, 04:57
However, my mind went back to Piketty's forecast of social unrest, the rise of Populist movements and the growth of extreme reactions like anti-Semitism (or any other 'anti' movement) and perhaps what we are seeing is a sign of a coarsening of what is seen as 'acceptable' reaction and criticism.
Too much aggression and violence on TV is bound to be one of the drivers in this change. Ask anyone working in an advertising agency why they spend millions on TV adverts - it modifies people's behaviour.

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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Stanley » 10 Jan 2019, 04:35

Very true Tiz. I have commented before on the modern trend to believing that extreme aggression as promoted by special army training is seen as a natural driver of performance.
Meanwhile, In the Commons.... Speaker Bercow is doing the right things. The second vote yesterday gives the sensible members the power and more importantly, the opportunity, to modify the government's otherwise total control of the timetable and the actions it takes. It remains to be seen where this takes us next week.
There are signs that we are at last beginning to move in a better direction. Keir Starmer impresses me.....
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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Stanley » 11 Jan 2019, 04:30

Hard to tell what the outcome next Tuesday will be. Downing Street is promising bribe amendments left right and centre to sway opinion but the general opinion of the commentators is that May will lose the vote. Mind you, crystal ball gazing in these situations is high risk, there's nowt so queer as folk..... We live in uncertain times.
Meanwhile, in another part of the forest Trump leaves Washington vowing he will not give in on the Budget allocation for his Wall. This starts to bite now that the pay cheques have dried up. Who will the voters blame? The opinion polls could well hold the key to who 'wins'. Actually, everyone loses including us, expect the law of unintended consequences to kick in as the markets become more nervous.
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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by plaques » 11 Jan 2019, 09:56

Trump never said Mexico would pay for the wall by cheque. Then went on to say that within the trade deal they had with Canada and Mexico that Mexico was already paying for the wall. The only conclusion you can draw from this is that trade deals with America are always going to be in their favor. This begs the question, if the UK was to strike a separate deal with America how good would it be for us?

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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Tizer » 11 Jan 2019, 16:17

What's got into Michael Gove? Apparently he told Parliament that Corbyn's `official Brexit policy is b****cks'. Perhaps Govey is getting a wee bit rattled! :smile:

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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Stanley » 12 Jan 2019, 04:13

"Perhaps Govey is getting a wee bit rattled! :smile:" You can say that again! And he is not alone. The Tories are staring down the muzzle of the gun that could quite possibly mean that their seats are in danger, that concentrates their minds more than anything else!
I note that Speaker Bercow ruled that the 'B' word was allowable but then he had to, his wife has a 'Bollocks to Brexit' sticker in her car window.....
Interesting how the subtle undercurrent of 'delaying' Article 50 is creeping into Tory answers. How much delay? Is this code for rescinding the application? I think they are all becoming aware of the fact that 'Cameron's Catastrophe' is exactly that.
We are in for a fascinating few days.......
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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by plaques » 12 Jan 2019, 08:24

.
Stanley wrote:
12 Jan 2019, 04:13
how the subtle undercurrent of 'delaying' Article 50 is creeping into Tory answers.
'Just looking for loop holes' is what W. C. Fields supposedly said when someone found him leafing through the Bible. Meanwhile behind all this Brexit smokescreen austerity continues. Loads of promises and 'we are minded to take a closer look into this' and lessons have been learnt but meanwhile the poor get poorer.

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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Tizer » 12 Jan 2019, 09:50

Transport Secretary and Multiple Blunderer Chris Grayling tells the Daily Mail today that blocking Brexit could lead to a surge in far-right extremism in the UK. LINK Somebody remind him that Cameron opening Brexit has already caused a surge in far-right extremism because the extremists feel they are now getting their own way. Completing Brexit will only make it worse, not better. Who runs the country, the electorate through their representatives in government or the extremists through the `tabloid' newspapers, social media and harassment?

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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Stanley » 13 Jan 2019, 04:57

P, that's one of my favourite quotes. You are dead right about the poor getting poorer, I have never heard such cynical answers in my life as we are getting on Universal Credit even without the ongoing cuts in other areas. The disability assessments also are a disgrace!
Tiz, I thought the same thing when I heard him.
We have a long running campaign here run by an organisation called SELRAP. Their fight has been to reopen the Skipton to Colne connecting line shut by Beeching. It would be a very useful link for traffic (both freight and passenger) between Lancashire and the NE via Leeds. After many years they have reached the stage where the government has put £1miilion into an inquiry and guess who is in charge.... The serial disaster merchant Grayling! The man is totally useless, look at his track record. His opinion is worthless.
We are in for an interesting week....... Has May booked the removal van?
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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Stanley » 13 Jan 2019, 07:23

Later.... Have a look at THIS BBC report of an article from T May published today in the Sunday Express. This is hysterical and inaccurate. The catastrophe she fears is the 'MPs taking over Parliament', in other words doing their job as the ultimate guardians of the public good.
The bottom line is that it has dawned on her and her Party that they have made the mistake of shutting out all input from everybody outside the Brexit loop with the consequence that they never fully appreciated the full enormity of the changes they were committed to. This also completely ignored the legitimate concerns of business and the public.
Incidentally it is also a sign that they can see terrible consequences of their present course of action for the Tory Party. If the general opinion is right and she is defeated on Tuesday this is not only a political set back but an indication of a moral vacuum at the centre of the government. This has consequences and it is now almost certain that we will see a General Election during which a lot of pigeons will come home to roost connected with policy decisions since 2010. There is a real possibility that many Tory MPs are going to take early retirement. This is never admitted to be part of the agenda but make no mistake, MPs are no different than anyone else and the prospect of this loss is a massive factor that can't be voiced overtly.
This week could see a change in the political and Brexit landscape. The least I expect to see is an extension beyond March 29th, the most is complete withdrawal from the Brexit process and a new government. It remains to be seen whether the latter would be an improvement. Politics is funny stuff!
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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Tizer » 13 Jan 2019, 09:57

At least Roy Hattersley has the right idea...
`Brexit: Lord Hattersley says people should get vote on PM's deal' LINK
`..Lord Hattersley, 86, who was due to speak at the [People's Vote] rally but pulled out due to illness, told BBC Radio 4's Today programme: "I think the British people have a right to cast a vote on the merits of the package Mrs May has negotiated. "They voted by a small majority to leave the union, but they had no idea what leaving the union meant. "We now know how bad it will be. We now know that it will be much worse than remaining in, and that the British people have a right to express a view on whether they want to remain in or they want to leave." He added that "sometimes, you just have to do what is right", rather than looking at what "wins elections" and possibly at the risk of losing Labour supporters....'.

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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by chinatyke » 13 Jan 2019, 11:33

Tizer wrote:
13 Jan 2019, 09:57
...and that the British people have a right to express a view on whether they want to remain in or they want to leave.
Didn't they already do that 2 years ago?

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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Big Kev » 13 Jan 2019, 11:44

chinatyke wrote:
13 Jan 2019, 11:33
Tizer wrote:
13 Jan 2019, 09:57
...and that the British people have a right to express a view on whether they want to remain in or they want to leave.
Didn't they already do that 2 years ago?
They did but based on very limited information on what they were actually voting for...
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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by chinatyke » 13 Jan 2019, 13:23

Ask a load of people to vote on something on which they have "very limited information" and you're likely to get a close result. However, more voters at that time felt that it was worse to remain in the EU. MPs should have done their job and made the decision instead of leaving it to a badly informed electorate. You can blame Cameron and the Tories but the same badly informed electorate also put them in power. The Power of the People! They won't always get it right! As JC said on TV "Don't worry."

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... -WEEK.html

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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Stanley » 14 Jan 2019, 02:58

The DM is not exactly the go to source for unbiased information.
Blame doesn't matter, it's consequences and any fule noe that damaging the economy in times of financial turmoil is a BAD IDEA!
When the expenses scandal hit the headlines I said that there were faint signs that the tectonic plates of politics were shifting. I think that I was on to something.......
Later.... well placed financial and business commentators are forecasting that whatever the eventual outcome, if the Tories lose the vote tomorrow Sterling is almost certainly going to tank and this could be very bad news for firms who buy raw materials with foreign currency and sell in Sterling. Things are looking slightly dodgy......
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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by plaques » 14 Jan 2019, 09:18

The given reason that airlines are closing, Landrover Jaguar cutting back on jobs, High street stores closing, big supermarkets losing out to low cost outlets is all down to Brexit uncertainty. Nothing at all to do with stagnant wages with people getting poorer and personal debt reaching breaking point. Its all down to losing confidence to spend money you haven't got and nothing to do with common sense that you can't go on like this for ever. Bubble! what bubble?

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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Tizer » 14 Jan 2019, 10:05

Big Kev wrote:
13 Jan 2019, 11:44
chinatyke wrote:
13 Jan 2019, 11:33
Tizer wrote:
13 Jan 2019, 09:57
...and that the British people have a right to express a view on whether they want to remain in or they want to leave.
Didn't they already do that 2 years ago?
They did but based on very limited information on what they were actually voting for...
Quiet right, Ian, but I'll be kind on China and say he was wanting to provide us with a perfect illustration of how to use preferential quoting to change the meaning of what someone wrote or said. :smile:
The original full quote would be: "We now know how bad it will be. We now know that it will be much worse than remaining in, and that the British people have a right to express a view on whether they want to remain in or they want to leave."

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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by PanBiker » 14 Jan 2019, 10:09

Tizer wrote:
14 Jan 2019, 10:05
Quiet right, Ian,
It was Kev but never mind... :smile:
Ian

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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Big Kev » 14 Jan 2019, 11:05

PanBiker wrote:
14 Jan 2019, 10:09
Tizer wrote:
14 Jan 2019, 10:05
Quiet right, Ian,
It was Kev but never mind... :smile:
It's good to share :-)
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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by chinatyke » 14 Jan 2019, 11:54

Tizer wrote:
14 Jan 2019, 10:05
I'll be kind on China and say he was wanting to provide us with a perfect illustration of how to use preferential quoting to change the meaning of what someone wrote or said. :smile:
Who? Me? Would I do such a thing? I should have been a politician! :extrawink:

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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Tizer » 14 Jan 2019, 12:26

PanBiker wrote:
14 Jan 2019, 10:09
Tizer wrote:
14 Jan 2019, 10:05
Quiet right, Ian,
It was Kev but never mind... :smile:
So it was! Never mind, I guess Ian would have written the same if Kev hadn't got there first. :smile:

Meanwhile, Trump is threatening Turkey with economic devastation...and Turkey has been a member of NATO since 1952. What's the procedure when one NATO country threatens another NATO country?

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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Stanley » 15 Jan 2019, 04:50

P, I think you are quite correct about the debt bubble bursting. Allowing it and all its variants like releasing pension equity and allowing pay day loans at 1200% in order to boost consumption and the GDP had to end somewhere and the cunning wheezes have blown up in their faces just at the wrong (Right?) time.
I think we are all missing the biggest flaw in Cameron's Catastrophe. He allowed the public to express their opinion and what they did was expose the deep divide in public opinion on the EU, freedom of movement and some mythical yearning for the days of empire. (A referendum on Capital Punishment would have produced exactly the same result!) So inevitably the country split down the middle and as long as second referendums are mooted and the other myth of 'Democratic Rights' the split will simply become more polarised. What is needed is a clean executive decision one way or another and the only source that it can come from is Parliament. I favour delaying the implementation of Article 50 immediately, a General Election and then a decision to forget Brexit on the grounds it was a big mistake by rescinding the decision to leave.
This is such a massive 'U' Turn that the Tories will never do it because it means admitting they cocked up and have been in error for the last two years. In other words we need a leader and I am not quite sure where he or she is hiding......
Did you hear the howls of derision in the House yesterday when May cited 'historians in the future'? She was correct but not for the reasons she imagines, the historians will give their verdict on the scale of the mistake and its consequences not the fact that her deal was rejected.
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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by plaques » 15 Jan 2019, 09:07

Even if Mrs May's Brexit vote today goes down like a lead balloon its Lincoln odds against Corbyn getting a general election. No 10 is well aware that the last time they tried this ruse with the polls very much in their favour they lost their overall majority in parliament. This time round they are behind so this is a no-go area. If she loses today then there's plan 'B' which will turn out to be no more than another four day delay. After losing all credibility as their leader but apparently safe for another twelve months from an attack by her own party she will probably get a visit from the men in the 'grey suits' ,as George Galloway would say, and we will get a new Prime Minister or a series of Prime Ministers until 2022. All this, of course is speculation. Whatever the outcome I know who will be the losers. Isn't politics interesting?

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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Tripps » 15 Jan 2019, 17:08

In parliament I've heard Peter Bone MP say that the Lords have ruled that we have no obligation to pay the EU £39billion, yet the Attorney General replied that he is wrong - and that's not what the Lords committee said.

Either they did or they didn't - in the post truth era - what's a chap to think?

I think we reached 'peak Speaker' when he described the Attorney General, Geoffrey Cox, as 'having the intellect of Einstein with the oratorial powers of Demosthenes'. They both certainly have a first in self regard. :smile:

Please let it be over soon. :smile:
Born to be mild. . .

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