Dangers of Scotland leaving the UK

[Pluggy]

I'm surprised so many world leaders have expressed an opinion (usually urging them to stay with the union). The Aussie PM being the latest.

[Stanley]

Alex Salmond admits that he blew it in the debate with Darling when he had no answer to the question of what currency would be used. He insists it will be the English Pound even though the Treasury has vetoed this.

[Stanley]

11 days before the referendum and the uncomfortable truth is that if you look at the curve of poll results, the YES campaign is on track for a narrow victory. Much head scratching in the Westminster Bubble.....
I note that the Queen was attending the Braemar Gathering yesterday. Everyone seems to have forgotten that the origin of the Gathering was on 27 August 1715 when Earl of Mar gathered the clans to announce his support for the exiled James.

[Tizer]

The rest off the UK is only just wakening up to the idea that the United Kingdom might be about to become a wee bit less united.

[PanBiker]

Caught the last comic on "Live at the Apollo" last knight which was themed on the Yes/No question. "if we vote yes, what will happen to all the Poundlands?"

[Stanley]

Osborne looked like a comedian yesterday as he promised Scotland the earth if they stay in.... Bit late actually, he should have done it before the postal votes went out.

[chinatyke]

The pound is dropping like a stone on forex markets presumably because of the uncertainty of the Scotland vote. It has fallen about 6% against the Chinese yuan in the last 2 weeks. The Chinese don't need any help to become World leaders but UK leaders are playing into their hands and should realise the damage they are doing to the Union. It should be the whole of the UK that is voting on the outcome of the UK not just a few hillbillies in skirts from the north, a small minority of the UK.

[Marilyn]

if the pound continues to drop it may mean we can afford another UK holiday!

[Tizer]

The way things are going you'll be able to buy the UK and take it home with you, Maz!
How bizarre that we should be thinking of breaking up the UK at a time like now, with the greatest risk of war since the days of the Cold War, heightened terrorist threats, an unstable EU economy etc. It's only now that the newspapers have started running headlines like "Last days of the UK". As usual, the media has had it's head in the London clay.

[chinatyke]

if the pound continues to drop it may mean we can afford another UK holiday!

That's true Maz but I'm a poor pensioner trying to eke out my pensions which are paid in GB groats and I lose out when I bring the money over here. The porridge gobblers have a lot to answer for.

[Belle]

It is nice to see this topic being debated in a serious, thoughtful way. Having spent nearly half my life in Scotland, with much of my family still living there, it is a topic very close to my heart.
I agree that those who are Scots born and bred should have a vote, wherever they live, it is going to be very hard for ex natives to see their homeland sail off into the wide blue yonder without being able to do anything to stop if it, and I agree that most would want to.
The Yes vote propaganda has been extremely clever and most seem to have swallowed it whole, but Scotland like Ireland was initially a Catholic country so there was division between us from the moment England became protestant, and the Scots, like the Irish have used anti- English music and poetry to feed the minds of their children down all the generations, so there was fertile ground for Alex Salmond to sow his discord into.
I am not saying that they don't have a case, of course they do, they have been treated badly by successive Governments as have the north of England, the Welsh, and anywhere else that doesn't fall into London and the Home counties! Like Stanley, I think we would perhaps all be better off under a Scottish regime, and what would be the best outcome for all of us is if they stayed in the union and had much more say. But I am sad that despite, as Bruff says, they are hoping to form a more altruistic society, that altruism does not extend to the rest of the UK.
The wave of patriotism that is sweeping Scotland is hopefully enough to get them through all the difficulties ahead, but I fear it may not be, and not only will the UK be split, it will be sunk! No one seems to be seriously considering the many knock on effects to come out of a split.The pound, of course, and membership of the EU are constantly raised and no one has given any contingencies plans if neither are available.. but there are other concerns: Will Scotland be able to keep it's idyllic landscape if it has to build more industry to provide for itself? One of my family, a long term SNP voter, has decided to vote No because of the wind farm schemes Alex Salmond has proposed. What sort of politics will emerge, what is an opposition going to look like in Scotland? What will it mean for the Labour party in the depleted Uk if the large Scots vote has gone? How long will it be before other parts of Uk break away? What will Scotland do if Shetland persist in they're line that the oil off their shores is not Scottish (Shetlanders are not part of Scotland they are keen to tell you..) The No voice is barely audible, but if you have been following the grass roots debate, and witnessing the aggression that Yes voters have been exhibiting toward anyone disagreeing with them, it is not surprising.
That in itself..the fact that a country always united in their national pride is now divided by hostility, should be a warning that this can not end well if independence goes through, or maybe either way now!
Personally, like Bruff I think it is unstoppable, and if not this time, next, with even more extreme view points being taken..there is a spirit of division abroad these days, and I think a very different (not better) world will emerge when the dust settles.

[plaques]

Well written Belle. The core of all the debates centre round three subjects- London, London, London. I'm not surprised that Scotland is thinking of leaving the UK.

[PanBiker]

Yes, a good post Belle with some very salient points. I cant help thinking that if a yes vote prevails, the terms Great Britain and the United Kingdom will cease to exist. Our island will become a little like Cyprus and we may ultimately end up with a border fence and security as exists there between the Greek and Turkish sectors. I agree with Belle in that regardless of the outcome of this vote we, (as a nation) will be considerably less than we were before.

[chinatyke]

I can't help thinking that if a yes vote prevails, the terms Great Britain and the United Kingdom will cease to exist.

Yes, they should cease to be used as Great Britain includes Scotland, and UK includes GB. Will we be able to go back to saying we are from England?

[Pluggy]

A minority of the population, with a substantial share of the land mass., Hell, I'd want independance if I were a Scot. If the yes vote prevails, its going to change a lot of things, What we going to call ourselves ? 'England Wales and Northern Ireland' doesn't have quite the same ring as United Kingdom. And will The new flag (We can't really keep the 'jack') have green and a dragon in it ?. I can't help thinking that Alex Salmonds March 2016 Independance day is a pipe dream, its going to take a lot longer than 18 months to unpick Scotland from the rest of us.....

[chinatyke]

Hell, I'd want independence if I were a Scot.
And will the new flag (We can't really keep the 'jack') have green and a dragon in it ?

Why should the Scots have the right to leave the Union? They lost that right in 1707 or even earlier. Why should they benefit from over 300 years of the Union and then be allowed to walk away Scot free? [ What is the origin of that phrase?]

Will they be treated as illegal immigrants if they hunt haggis on the English fells?

The Welsh flag is not represented on the Union Jack because Wales was already united with England in the 13th century and under Henry VIII, the Act of Union joined England and Wales officially in 1536.

[Pluggy]

The St George cross is so boring after the Union Jack.

With all the negative names you're calling the Scots, China, I take it you don't like them ? Or is it just because your pension isn't worth as much as it was ?

I spent 4 years of my younger life in Fife, in HM navy and I have 'Jocks' as friends (some of the 800,000 Scots who won't get to vote because they live in England). A decent 'haggis supper' is so hard to come by down here.....

[Tizer]

Thanks, Belle, for your substantial contribution with lots of interesting points. Right at the beginning you mentioned your Scottish family connections and that made me think how there must be so many people living in the rest of the UK who have genetic links with Scotland. Mrs Tiz's mother is a Scot, for example. Geographically the UK is several countries but genetically the population is a mixture of genes from all of them and many others too. Scotland might leave the UK but it won't undo the genetic mixing.

[chinatyke]

With all the negative names you're calling the Scots, China, I take it you don't like them ?

Porridge gobblers? I've been called far worse! Sorry, it is just my sense of humour.

I am not against the Scots, just against them leaving the UK. But if they do leave then they should be treated as outsiders and given no special privileges.

[Belle]

That kind of polarisation will be the outcome I fear, China, and you have a point, the Scots formed the union with the rest of the UK for their own economic benefit, they weren't invaded or conquered as many would have us believe, I wonder how they would be feeling now if the Uk had decided to hold a vote on whether they had a right to stay in the union, with no consultation with them at all?

[Stanley]

Splendid post Belle! Covers all the bases, well balanced and very well written. Lovely to see you joining in.
"a few hillbillies in skirts" Oh dear....
The main Tory spokesmen, Cameron and Osborne have done more for the YES campaign than anyone else. Their whole attitude has been lacking in passion and in some cases puerile, especially the late flood of bribes. The whole of the NO campaign has been overlaid by the fact that mistrust of politicians has never been as great as it is now. Nobody can call the result but one thing is certain, Scottish Independence will happen, if not now but in the near future. It is a step in the dark and on the positive side could lead to a completely different political alignment in England. God knows we need something different than we have now.

[Belle]

I am beginning to wonder, now that is has been revealed that Cameron narrowed the ballot down to just two options, YES or NO, when Salmond wanted a third..that proposed yesterday...that the whole thing has not been an attempt by the Tory party to get rid of Labour forever,and the SNP are just pawns in his game. Risky!

[Stanley]

Belle, very perceptive. I believe you are right and this was a consideration. You are right, it is risky and from what I can pick up from comments in Scotland it is very much an anti-Tory vote. Even Scottish Labour members are defying the English party line and switching to YES for the same reason. One thing that is emerging is the 'if they can have it why can't we' line from voters in the rest of the UK.
I'm beginning to think that the YES vote can win and that this is going to have an enormous effect on English politics. There is as much anti-Tory feeling here as evidenced by UKIP. Interesting times!
Interesting debate on Woman's Hour on the subject. Vehement repudiation of the way that the NO campaign has treated women and the use of the fear factor. The tack has changed now as Cameron ditches threats and goes for emotion. Unfortunately he's very bad at it! I think they have blown it.....

[Tizer]

Perhaps we just wait until the Yes voters win and then we say, "Right, you can go and take everything you want with you but on condition we can all come too!" ("Oh, and one other condition - Alex Salmond has to step down".)

Have a look at this BBC News page. It's about the question `What might a Scottish defence force look like' but scroll to the bottom of the page and you'll find links to a lot of other questions about the Scottish referendum:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-s ... s-29135269

[Stanley]

Only one thing is certain, whatever the result of the vote things will never be the same again. The Law of Unintended Consequences will go into overdrive! Dev Max for the North of England?
The bottom line is that the Great Wen has had too much power and has run the rest of the country like colonies for far too long. Some people say that history has nothing to do with it but they are wrong, just one example from the recent past, where did Thatcher experiment with the Poll Tax? Go back further and look at absentee landlords and the Clearances. Remember Toto Wolff, the insanity of the bubble.