The Referendum.

[Stanley]

All good and interesting posts, lovely to see that good tempered logical debate is alive and well (if thin on the ground in the world at large....).
But, whichever way you look at it, the subject of our membership is far too complicated to be decided by a simple yes or no answer. That's bad enough but when you introduce emotive matters like personal political ambition, abstract concepts like patriotism and yearning for some Mythical age where we were free and in control of our lives and pure mischief making, things get ridiculous. Add the wild card of opinions rooted in ignorance which are barking mad and we end up not with a debate but a lottery. Because I am a simple soul, I started with the idea that on the most basic level the electorate would do what is the norm, vote for the status quo. I'm not as sanguine now and am getting worried that there is a real possibility that the rabid tendency who have swallowed the myths might prevail.
As if this wasn't enough reason for disquiet, I have another personal fear/suspicion which is that I distrust the current direction of travel under the modern Tory Project. All the evidence of the last six years points to a generally regressive tendency in taxation, distribution of wealth, the welfare state and employment conditions. Hard won advantages in these fields are being eroded and I am convinced that there is a powerful element in the modern Tory Party which is aiming for a reversion to 'The Good Old Days' of laissez faire which characterised the worst elements of 19th century society. Piketty, Stiglitz and others have argued cogently that the general trend is for wealth to move upwards damaging the fairer balance we had post 1950 under more progressive policies of taxation and equality in society. Could it be that one factor which drives the Brexiteers is the throwing off of the shackles of the mitigating effects of EU legislation in fields like human rights? Is the cry for regaining 'sovereignty' actually a ploy to increase the freedom to pursue even more regressive policies?
If you get the idea I am worried you're right. Remember that the result will be decided by a simple majority. In theory one vote could decide the most important decision of modern times. This is, in my opinion anyway, madness. 'Those whom the Gods wish to destroy they first make mad'.

[PanBiker]

One of the vote leave lot, can't remember his name, is going to try via the courts to get an injunction against the Governments decision to extend the voter registration time due to the system crash on the original last day. The registration has been extended up to midnight tomorrow. Why would anyone want to get a legal ruling to disenfranchise thousand of people? Bloody lords of the universe!

[Tizer]

Remember that the result will be decided by a simple majority. In theory one vote could decide the most important decision of modern times. This is, in my opinion anyway, madness....

Yes, you've only got to listen to all those ordinary folk being interviewed on TV and radio, and quoted in newspapers, saying they don't understand the arguments, or they haven't got the facts, or obviously being misled by lies and misinterpretations to realise that it's a very bad idea to hold a referendum on such an important and complicated topic. We elect a government to make such decisions, based on sound evidence from people who know the facts. But there's no going back now so let's hope that sanity prevails.

It's good to see that the chairman of the health select committee has seen the light: LINK
`EU referendum: MP Sarah Wollaston swaps sides over 'untrue' Leave claims'
"Tory MP Sarah Wollaston has quit the campaign to leave the EU and will vote for Remain instead, she told the BBC. Dr Wollaston, chairman of the health select committee, said Vote Leave's claim that Brexit would free up £350m a week for the NHS "simply isn't true". She told the BBC she did not feel comfortable being part of the campaign. Leave campaigners defend the £350m figure, saying it is the UK's gross contribution and any money received back is at EU officials' discretion."

[David Whipp]

Reaction to Dr Wollaston's switch by the outers is revealing:

1) She was a plant set there to defect.

2) She's done it to advance her career with Cameron.

3) She's a traitor, so not to be trusted.

Her reasoned arguments are utterly discounted by the zealots.

The level of paranoia and hysteria is frightening - the conspiracy theorists are having a field day.

[Stanley]

How many people are competent to make any sort of judgement on this matter? I'm arrogant enough to believe that my reasoning is correct and I shall vote to remain in but I am not certain I am right and can't forecast what the result of Brexit will be. The only thing I am sure of is that it isn't a knee-jerk reaction.
Look back to the 1930s when the overwhelming opinion in the USA was in favour of Isolationism and contemplate on how that was overcome and the results.....
Remember that this Pandora's Box was opened by DC as a way of addressing internal party problems. We are being railroaded into an entirely unnecessary decision by an incompetent and self-centred politician.

[cloghopper]

Thank you Bruff for sorting out the word count thingy for me. I was relying on my flakey memory since I don't enjoy the luxury of time available to do much google/wikipedia nowadays.The principle stands, as does the very fundamental and important difference between Anglo Saxon Common Law and Continental Penal, Civil, and Administrative codes. Central to the way the EU works; towards a Federal States of Europe, or a mild mannered Fourth Reich - take your pick.
Interesting to see Fog Personified and the Beacon of Truth drafted in to bolster Project Fear.
Wish you all well anyway, whatever the outcome. Interesting times ahead.

[Tripps]

With just 12 days until the referendum - I found this in the comments section of another website. Worth a look I'd say.

"Cadbury moved factory to Poland 2011 with EU grant.

Ford Transit moved to Turkey 2013 with EU grant.

Jaguar Land Rover has recently agreed to build a new plant in Slovakia with EU grant, owned by Tata, the same company who have trashed our steel works and emptied the workers pension funds.

Peugeot closed its Ryton (was Rootes Group) plant and moved production to Slovakia with EU grant.

British Army's new Ajax fighting vehicles to be built in SPAIN using SWEDISH steel at the request of the EU to support jobs in Spain with EU grant, rather than Wales.

Dyson gone to Malaysia, with an EU loan.

Crown Closures, Bournemouth (Was METAL BOX), gone to Poland with EU grant, once employed 1,200.

M&S manufacturing gone to far east with EU loan.

Hornby models gone. In fact all toys and models now gone from UK along with the patents all with with EU grants.

Gillette gone to eastern Europe with EU grant.

Texas Instruments Greenock gone to Germany with EU grant.

Indesit at Bodelwyddan Wales gone with EU grant.

Sekisui Alveo said production at its Merthyr Tydfil Industrial Park foam plant will relocate production to Roermond in the Netherlands, with EU funding.

Hoover Merthyr factory moved out of UK to Czech Republic and the Far East by Italian company Candy with EU backing.

ICI integration into Holland’s AkzoNobel with EU bank loan and within days of the merger, several factories in the UK, were closed, eliminating 3,500 jobs.

Boots sold to Italians Stefano Pessina who have based their HQ in Switzerland to avoid tax to the tune of £80 million a year, using an EU loan for the purchase.

JDS Uniphase run by two Dutch men, bought up companies in the UK with £20 million in EU 'regeneration' grants, created a pollution nightmare and just closed it all down leaving 1,200 out of work and an environmental clean-up paid for by the UK tax-payer. They also raided the pension fund and drained it dry.

UK airports are owned by a Spanish company.

Scottish Power is owned by a Spanish company.

Most London buses are run by Spanish and German companies.

The Hinkley Point C nuclear power station to be built by French company EDF, part owned by the French government, using cheap Chinese steel that has catastrophically failed in other nuclear installations. Now EDF say the costs will be double or more and it will be very late even if it does come online.

Swindon was once our producer of rail locomotives and rolling stock. Not any more, it's Bombardier in Derby and due to their losses in the aviation market, that could see the end of the British railways manufacturing altogether even though Bombardier had EU grants to keep Derby going which they diverted to their loss-making aviation side in Canada.

39% of British invention patents have been passed to foreign companies, many of them in the EU.

The Mini cars that Cameron stood in front of as an example of British engineering, are built by BMW mostly in Holland and Austria. His campaign bus was made in Germany even though we have Plaxton, Optare, Bluebird, Dennis etc., in the UK.

The bicycle for the Greens was made in the far east, not by Raleigh UK but then they are probably going to move to the Netherlands too as they have said recently.

Anyone who thinks the EU is good for British industry or any other business simply hasn't paid attention to what has been systematically asset-stripped from the UK. Name me one major technology company still running in the UK, I used to contract out to many, then the work just dried up as they were sold off to companies from France, Germany, Holland, Belgium, etc., and now we don't even teach electronic technology for technicians any more, due to EU regulations.

I haven't detailed our non-existent fishing industry the EU paid to destroy, nor the farmers being paid NOT to produce food they could sell for more than they get paid to do nothing, don't even go there.

I haven't mentioned what it costs us to be asset-stripped like this, nor have I mentioned immigration, nor the risk to our security if control of our armed forces is passed to Brussels or Germany.

Find something that's gone the other way, I've looked and I just can't. If you think the EU is a good idea.

1/ You haven't read the party manifesto of The European Peoples' Party.
2/ You haven't had to deal with EU petty bureaucracy tearing your business down.
3/ You don't care."

[Stanley]

No mention of the Seven Plagues? We really must be doomed!

[Big Kev]

There are similar sites/comments for either argument...

[Tizer]

Yes, identical copies of the text in Tripps's post are scattered all over the Internet. I hope British people will see through it. The list of claims is intended to make us think that if we hadn't been in the EU then these things wouldn't have happened. But that's not so.

Today's Sunday Times is trying to tell us that the "UK is set to open doors to 1 million Turkish citizens" in what it calls `secret' discussions among government ministers that have been leaked. Furthermore, it's being kept secret until after the referendum. However the ITV News web site says:
"Senior cabinet ministers have denied claims that the UK is considering allowing more than 1 million Turkish citizens visa-free travel to the UK, after information about "leaked documents" emerged in a leading Sunday paper. According to The Sunday Times a cache of five documents seen by its staff shows British diplomats had secretly discussed granting as many as 1.5 million Turkish citizens easier access to the Schengen area but EU officials were attempting to keep any visa deal under wraps until after the referendum. Home Secretary Theresa May and Foreign Secretary Philip Hammond said the claims were "completely untrue" and insisted that UK border restrictions would not be lifted. In a joint statement, May and Hammond said: "The Government's policy is, and will remain, to maintain current visa requirements for all Turkish nationals wishing to visit the UK, regardless of what arrangements other member states in the Schengen area may make with Turkey." LINK

I'm still frequently seeing and hearing claims that if we stay in the EU we'll be made to let millions of Turks etc into the UK. I think the Remain campaigners need to start addressing the misleading information on immigration and spend less time and energy on the economic aspects. It's the false stuff bandied about on immigration that's dangerous but is causing most angst among the public. Perhaps we need another clarification from Bruff on immigration!

[Stanley]

Remember when we had warnings of a similar tide of East Europeans a few years ago?
I hate saying this, because it sounds so arrogant but it's true... If you did a similar post based on road accidents or the use of gas in the home it would 'prove' the case for banning both if you lacked the sort of mind that analyses statements and assesses their worth. A large part of the public have never been educated to use these techniques and such a biased statement will be taken as incontrovertible reinforcement of any skewed views they already hold.
I have got to the stage now where I am reassuring myself that whatever the outcome, it will not immediately disrupt my life and I shall be dead soon anyway!
The Cameron Catastrophe is possibly the worst political mistake I have ever seen and is rooted in his own inadequacies. Wherever we finish up, we have seen the complete absence of statesmanship in the upper echelons of politics. It's all based on self interest and money. Nobody has advanced the case for supporting global cooperation and wider involvement in the real politics of the changes we are seeing. If you're worried about tides of immigration now I have news for you. You ain't seen nothing yet!!

[Big Kev]

Referendum campaigns running out of things for you to be scared of
Courtesy of NewsThump

Both sides of the referendum campaign have taken to social media to search for new things to frighten you with.
After Vote Leave claimed that staying in the EU will result in vast rises in clowns with sharp teeth sleeping under your bed, the Remain camp said leaving the EU would result in more unannounced week-long visits from your Mother-in-law.
With the UK electorate demonstrating more clearly than ever that they are more willing to vote against things that scare them than vote in support of things they like, both sides have stepped up the fear rhetoric.
A spokesperson for the Remain campaign said, “We’ve done recession, taxes, pensions and unemployment – so today we’re doing mothers-in-law, hand-sized house spiders and bin juice.
“We’d planned to be talking about the positive things the EU has done, like workers’ rights, the single-market and its associated economic growth, or allowing us to visit and work in Europe more easily than ever – but no-one’s interested, so spiders dipped in bin juice it is.”
A spokesperson for Vote Leave said, “We’ve done immigrants, house prices and terrorism – so today we’re doing clowns with pointed teeth, wasps, and the bits of food that get stuck in the plug hole after washing up.
“We’d planned to be talking about the positive things we could do outside of the EU, like negotiating our own trade deal with China, creating production standards optimised for British businesses or even creating an international workforce that more accurately meets our needs, but no-one’s interested, so clowns under your bed it is.”
Voters across the country have said they have almost decided who to vote for, and will visit the polling booths on 23th June as long as they are not still paralysed by fear

[Stanley]

They're getting desperate and it will get worse in the next two weeks. See THIS for the Tweet put up by Leave.EU which was instantly attacked and the post taken down.
Disgraceful......

[Tripps]

I've been following the betting on the referendum for a while now. Remain was, just a few weeks ago, at 1/8 - I see tonight they are 8/13, with leave at a very skinny 11/8.

Good to see that they are still using 'imperial' odds, and thatdecimal odds really never caught on - even with Paddy Power.

[Stanley]

I'm not a gambler and don't understand odds. Does 8/13 mean that if you bet 8 you get your stake back plus 13?
Only just over a week to go. The sooner it happens the better. There are some very suspect TV advertisements.....
I heard a woman from the Leave tendency arguing that the government will give us back all the money they save by leaving and that the future is rosy.... Can anyone really believe that? (Leaving aside the fact that her version of what we will 'save' is grossly exaggerated)

[PanBiker]

That will be the £350 million a day that can be used to build a hospital every day! I wonder if they will use green field land?

[Bruff]

Personally, I think it’s all over now. We will vote to leave. I thought this inconceivable only 2months ago but the Brexit campaign have played the trump card, immigration, and this has sealed the deal. Five polls out yesterday all with leave in front, six to seven points. Remain’s focus on the very real economic risks has either fallen on deaf ears or people have decided they will tolerate whatever risk to the economy and everything else materialises to ensure the benefits of fewer Pavel’s living next to them. Personally I have not found it alarmist – simply reasonable expressions of degrees of risk – but I imagine some have found it so, if not a little hectoring.

I guess I should have realised it would all be about immigration in the end. I was seduced by assuming everyone would vote on the question: whether we wish to be members of the EU or not. Our not being in the EU will make very little if any difference to immigration and little if any of the concerns people raise with respect to immigration. Lack of affordable homes, access to the job market, congestion, NHS services, schools places and so on and so on are all a manifestation of choices we make as a country or demographics and progress and not the EU. Immigration seems to me a function of our own economy and the economies around us, with the latter extending globally if we want to bring in migration. This would suggest the way to limit immigration is to either tank your own economy, which I personally wouldn’t recommend. Or throw your lot in to ensure the economies around you are thriving. Indeed I would have thought that anyone with concerns over immigration would be wholehearted supporters of the EU as one of its overriding aims is to ensure the development of the less strong economies among its membership. Being an active member, constantly pushing and arguing this case, should be I would have thought the goal of anyone concerned with EU immigration. Of course it goes without saying that if immigration pressures are causing localised domestic pressures then policy interventions are needed. But for example, I have always voted for parties that believe in the importance of Trade Union membership and collective bargaining and employment standards robustly enforced as a check against unscrupulous employers and ensuring a level playing field. That we don’t have policies etc. like this is down to choices we have made.

Still, there’s been some good stuff these past days. Mr Duncan Smith fulminated yesterday over unelected ECJ judges – as a journalist said the other week, he has taken on the air of a man roaming the streets in his pyjamas banging on about Bilderberg. It was a useful intervention though as it tells us he is not keen on an independent judiciary preferring elected judges it would seem. After all, like ECJ judges ours are not elected either. Is that what the Brexiters want?

Herr Dr Schauble (German Finance Minister) employed impeccable facts and logic at the weekend to spike any hope of access to the single market post-Brexit (and you can bet this was no idle musings in a personal capacity). The facts: access to the single market is either through EU membership or negotiation for access on agreed terms and conditions like Norway. The logic: a vote to leave the EU by the UK is a vote to leave the single market. There is no point negotiating on terms of access post-leave as the UK is already a member and will have decided it does not want to be in the single market. Why would, Dr Schauble noted, the EU override the democratic will of the UK people by even contemplating access (let alone whatever UK Government emerges)?

I had the dubious pleasure the other day of engaging with Vote Leave as they set up stall in town. I asked them to spend 5mins explaining how the EU works – they hadn’t got a clue. I then asked if they could spend 5mins explaining how Westminster works – they didn’t have a clue about this either. This was sad, as I wanted to have a discussion about democratic deficits and sovereignty and the like, which they all bang on about all the time. But it was not to be. I asked them then to explain the ‘Schauble Conundrum’ above, given Boris had in the debate a few days before insouciantly assumed we would have access to the single market. I don’t think they understood what I was talking about (which may be down to me, to be fair).

I finally couldn’t resist asking about Boris’ fib on the number of bananas in a bunch being dictated by the EU. Really because they were outside a Sainsbury’s and across from a greengrocers and so if it got a little tetchy, I could bring an evidence-base to my point by buying a few bunches (being partial to a banana). The view was the same as the view in an earlier post up the thread here when after the fib of the EU Directive word count was exposed, it was deemed that the general point still stood. Personally, I think it a shame that standards of civility have dropped so far in this country we are willing to lie outright to make a general point. I then asked whether they thought in the light of all this, a vote in a couple of weeks was a good idea. Oh yes came the reply.

Richard Broughton

[Tizer]

I don't have the knowledge of the EU that Bruff has but I've spent a lot of time reading and listening to information provided by other reliable sources and I've found no reason to quibble with anything he has written here on the subject. It's all good stuff and better than what we hear from the campaigners, especially from the Leave campaigners. I'd love to have been a `fly on the wall' when Bruff quizzed the Vote Leave campaigners in his recent encounter!

I got an inside view on the public's concerns about immigration the other day when a lady in a factory was interviewed on the radio. She was definitely going to vote Leave and said it was because of `all the immigrants being allowed into Britain'. The journalist said "But many of these people working alongside you are immigrants and you seem to be friends with them" and she replied "Oh, they're OK, it's the others that I'm worried about".

On the other hand a businessman told the journalist he was sure to vote Stay. Asked why, he said it was because if we stay in the EU he knew what would happen and we could work together with other EU members to sort out any problems and improve matters where necessary. But if we leave the EU he's got no idea what would happen. So why would he vote to leave? That seems to be a very concise summary of my view on the referendum.

Tim Harford who presents the excellent Radio 4 `More or Less' radio programme is doing a 10-minute slot at lunchtime each day this week giving independent, objective analysis of referendum issues. You can download the short podcasts from this web page. Each podcast is added the day after the broadcast. The title of the programme is `The Referendum by Numbers'. LINK

[Bruff]

I heard that lady too Tiz and it was just so dispiriting. ‘The others’ are presumably either illegals and it is absolutely in our gift to do something about this. That we don’t is another one of our choices. If ‘the others’ are EU migrants who are doing nothing, sitting around and raking in the benefits then they are so very, very few in number they simply cannot have a material effect on any of the adverse consequences she might feel flow from their presence. Which is not an argument for saying we do nothing about this. But how can people be so duped?

Farage is in his flotilla on The Thames, in support of the UK’s fisherman. Nigel the Fisherman’s Friend is a member of the EU Fisheries Committee. He’s on the fisherman’s side! Or maybe not. He’s turned up for all of 2 of the 49 meetings during his tenure on the Committee and missing various votes, even though he was often in the building, on for example Commission proposals in support of sustainable fishing in national waters by the sort of small national operators now gathered alongside him in their boats. I mean seriously, how stupid do you have to be to think this guy’s got your back? Probably so stupid as to think fish are an inexhaustible natural resource.

You know if there weren’t particularly serious risks to some of those most close to me on exit, either extended family and friends, then I’d resign myself to sitting back, acknowledging I’ve tried my best to make the case, and watch this country suddenly being brought up sharpish on just how insignificant it is. The UK’s nothing special. No one owes us any favours. We not going to march in with the Queen at our backs and start telling the colonials what to do now we’re free of the EU. And frankly, given the spectacle, I’d expect the EU to breathe a sigh of relief and think good riddance. I’d also quite like to see our request to join say EFTA vetoed by little Lichtenstein to ram our true status home. Oh yes, all EFTA members have a veto on anyone joining their group and why on earth would anyone want a disruptive toddler like us?

Richard Broughton

[plaques]

I'm always wary of any sample polls that suggest they can to predict the final outcome. Several of the more recent ones are based on telephone and internet calls. So we start with the premise that those who don't have telephones, and here I would suggest landlines, are of the same mind as those who do have telephones. Then there is the times of day, and whether the person answering it is giving a honest answer or just wants to get them out of the way. etc etc. Then comes the internet. How do you contact a large number of people randomly who you don't know. Do they have millions of e-mail addresses of people who will open mail from senders they don't know? or is it down to facebook and twitter. In short, in my mind, these types of polls are nothing better than mischief making.

[Tripps]

From the website of Paul Flynn MP.

" I am embarrassed by the lies of people on my side, just as I treat with contempt the lies of people on the other side. That is the choice facing the public—whose lies they will vote for next week."

[Stanley]

I think I could be exposed to accusations of being boring or sycophantic but I agree with everything above and am in awe of Bruff's insight based on knowledge of the EU and our government process. Thanks Richard.... Unfortunately, as I said a couple of days ago I fear your assessment of the vote is correct.
Yes, I heard that lady as well..... The epitome of the LCD vote.... Knee jerk, non-thinking and badly informed and whose fault is that? Come to think the same could be said about the people on the Tory back benches and elsewhere who are driven solely by Tory DNA, dreams of Empire and personal gain.
I think I have been consistent. I have warned about what I perceive to be the Tory Project, to drag us back to the good old days of 19th century laisser faire. It may be that a Leave vote is seen as a way of 'restoring power' to Westminster, that's what is meant by sovereignty. That will be attractive to those in the Establishment. I have little doubt that there will be even murkier hidden agendas lurking in the minds of the higher echelons. As for numbers of immigrants.... If there are too many people coming in this is more a product of lack of clear policies, under-funding of Border Control and perhaps a useful tool in that over-supply of the labour market is a good way of keeping wages down and eroding pay, benefits and working conditions. Some people have done quite nicely out of it thank you.
Assuming a Leave vote and looking forward there will be a stimulus to collective action by the mass of the electorate from increased union activity to street protest. Once the full implications of Brexit start to hit home there will be a destructive backlash. A genii will have been let out of the bottle and you can forget about two years of civilised negotiation of exit terms and trade deals, think 20 years of turmoil. I am getting boring.....
Coming from a different direction I was musing yesterday about the next seven days. If I was the spin-meister what would I be doing or hoping for? Both sides will be looking for a killer blow to ensure 'victory'. This could be some Machiavellian Cunning Wheeze or more likely 'events dear boy'. My mind wandered through the possibilities. A sudden serious Royal Illness? An attempted coup by some powerful interested party....? Remember that the EU has as much to lose as us and some clever and powerful people will be working on the problem.
The bottom line is that over the last twenty years domestic politics has deteriorated as discipline, ethics and clear progressive policies have been smothered by greed and personal ambition among the elite. We see this right through society from Parliament, through the financial sector and down to items as mundane as remuneration committees in public organisations and large businesses. Remember the Expenses Scandal? At the time I floated the possibility that the tectonic plates of politics were shifting. It looks as though I might have been on the right track but I have no pride in the accuracy of the forecast.
Now for interesting times, there will be a blood bath......
(Of course we may vote for the status quo. Richard and I might be wrong. Roll on next week and dust the tin hats off.)
Later. An afterthought as I walked round Barlick.... Let's not forget the Law of Unintended Consequences. One thing stands out, in the case of a Brexit vote in England and a remain vote in Scotland Independence will once more raise its head and could prove unstoppable. Same thing could apply to Wales....
Another thought, the lawyers and bureaucrats are assured of decades of well paid work as the enormously complicated job of disentangling us from the EU slowly works its way through the system.

[Sue]

I am not openly political but I fear Jeremy Corbyh has been too quiet and has sat back to let the Tory party distroy themselves with their insulting emotive back biting arguments over the referendum. This is not a general election this is far More important. Jeremy and the Labour Party must start shouting their support. Don't fight dirty but use emotive arguments that hit the leave voters and make them think. I honestly believe the media has made immigration the main point of this referendum rather than the economic issues that are so important.

I am very worried.

[PanBiker]

I had a very cynical thought this morning on hearing of the running battles between English football "fans" and the French Police widely reported in the media today. Is this just the work of mindless individuals or a case of "rent a mob" on behalf of the leave faction? Same tactic as used by that bloke Moseley a long time ago.

[David Whipp]

It's relief to come on here and see a reasonable discussion of the implications of leaving the EU.

I've just posted a link to this thread, together with Richard's rebuttal of the word count meme, on an 'outer's' facebook post. I'm now thinking I should delete the comment before a host of zealous Brexiters descend on the site...

In person and on facebook, I've done a little to try and put forward a positive case for remaining. My bottom line is the peace that the European project has brought to the EU countries after a thousand years of wars - with 50 million killed in the first half of the last century alone.

But any voices of sanity appear to be howled down. It seems as if the country is being swept by hysteria on the issue; a very dangerous position.

Thinking of consequences, I thought this article by Polly Toynbee put an accurate finger on some of the implications (I don't think it's been referenced here previously) Guardian Polly Toynbee article.