The Referendum.

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Re: The Referendum.

Post by PanBiker » 03 Jul 2016, 10:44

Perhaps and this could go into the politics thread but it is still referendum linked. The Tories are apparently discussing giving the PM job to Theresa May without a ballot, really! How democratic is that? In her defence she has insisted on a ballot. She is now quoting bits of speeches where it could be construed (just) that she may had an odd doubt about remaining. The dark lord that is Gove has picked upon this and said that this shows she is not committed to the exit cause.
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Re: The Referendum.

Post by Stanley » 04 Jul 2016, 03:15

Thing that intrigues me is what it says about anyone who supports the terrible Gove..... Lots of loose talk about another Maggie Thatcher.....
Who is Bojo supporting?
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Re: The Referendum.

Post by Tizer » 05 Jul 2016, 15:58

Have you noticed an increase in charity workers at your door asking for donations? We don't usually get them here - it's a small village and we're off down a country lane and most of them don't bother coming this far off the beaten track. But since the referendum ended we've had more than we've seen for a long time. Another effect of a bad decision in the referendum perhaps?

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Re: The Referendum.

Post by Stanley » 06 Jul 2016, 03:15

Yes Tiz, the same here. Despite the fact that we haven't even applied for Article 50 there are numerous straws in the wind. Ossie talking about cutting Corporation tax and ditching his targets. New instant loan companies appearing charging 1300% APR. BofE stimulating economy immediately. The pound sterling slowly slides down against the US$ and the rating agencies downgrade UK credit. The next time you hear the Tories saying they understand money and deriding Labour's management of the economy remember what is happening now to the 'economic miracle'. Unfortunately I don't think we've seen anything yet!
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Re: The Referendum.

Post by Bruff » 06 Jul 2016, 10:46

Well the Governor of the BoE noted yesterday that the risks many predicted may manifest post-Brexit were now beginning to ‘crystallise’ (is anyone else impressd by the use of crystallise there?). The response of much of the press is predictable: blame Mr Carney for talking down the economy when he’s just telling us what’s going on and what might go on(which as someone said is rather like blaming the weatherman for your not liking the weather today).

Blame, blame, blame. The usual British (English really) approach these days. What a state. Not just us being affected either. Sweden has completely altered its monetary policy to deal with the effects of Brexit. There is a view I feel coalescing across Europe and it’s this: a woefully ill-equiiped and cavalier PM gambled on a referendum for internal Party purposes, which resulted in a uniquely (in the European scheme of things) poorly-informed, naïve and disengaged electorate voting the way they did following a campaign characterised by lies and glibness and barely concealed (sometimes overt) anti-Europeanism, resulting in damage to all economies across the EU. For this reason, I increasingly suspect the UK will be treated mercilessly in the negotiations to come not just to encourager les autres as they say, but to punish. I’m not comfortable using words like punish, but we do need to be taught a lesson. I’m not going to come over all paternalistic and say so many folk voted in ignorance and the like and demand the vote is reversed somehow. What’s done’s done. Face the consequences and adapt; don’t blame. Brexit has been delivered; stop looking for new scapegoats.

On we go. A Professor of Law at Liverpool University was giving evidence to a Select Committee yesterday. He reckoned that for us to join the EEA post-Brexit (I.e access to the single market)this would require no veto from not just EFTA members, but also Switzerland and all the EU’s 27 countries. It would be both hilarious and tragic if the veto was used by Lichtenstein alone, but a reminder of our place in the scheme of things I suppose. I was reading the other day a discussion of which other country has enacted a decision of so self-evident self-harm as the UK’s decision to leave the EU? Rwanda by consensus was deemed the closest.

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Re: The Referendum.

Post by Big Kev » 07 Jul 2016, 10:21

It's a shame the Chilcot Report wasn't published a few weeks ago, a lesson in acting on insufficient and incorrect information and not having a "plan" may have prompted a different outcome...
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Re: The Referendum.

Post by Stanley » 08 Jul 2016, 04:45

Richard..... "I’m not going to come over all paternalistic and say so many folk voted in ignorance and the like and demand the vote is reversed somehow. " I'll relieve you of the responsibility because that is exactly what happened. It was treated on the same level as a consultation on whether to ban plastic carrier bags.
I fear you are correct in that feelings will be so strong that we will be punished by the EU, the equivalent of us imposing sanctions on a rogue country, and why not? God knows we deserve it.
Going back to the Expenses Scandal and the subsequent revelations which include the mass digital leaks on government and data gathering and the financial shenanigans off shore and culminating in Brexit and the Chilcot Report we have been inundated with hard evidence that the governance of the UK and it's major institutions has been a disaster for years. The Emperor has no clothes....
The only possible spark of light I can see at the end of this tunnel is that there is a possibility that our present political system might have suffered terminal damage and a new model might emerge, but it is only a faint flicker of light at the end of a very long tunnel.
Did you pick up David Whipp's post under 'Beware the banks are out to get you' where he reveals that Pendle Council have had to relax their rules on investment because what would have been sound investments before Brexit now break the old rules....
I know you get fed up of hearing me say this but I have never seen anything to match this level of incompetence and sheer stupidity mixed with greed and self interest in my life.
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Re: The Referendum.

Post by David Whipp » 08 Jul 2016, 07:24

Relaxation of the Treasury Management rules at Pendle has yet to be agreed - the meeting is next Thursday...

At the same meeting, Tory councillors are putting forward a motion noting the result of the Referendum and resolving that "This council and all its members commits to play its part, no matter how small, to implement the will of the people and support HM Government in ensuring the United Kingdom leaves the European Union."

The motion is being moved by the person who was the Regional Director for 'Leave' and seconded by the Tory's group leader who made a dramatic switch from 'In' to 'Out' on the eve of the poll. (I understand the latter holds Irish nationality, so he's OK then?)

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Re: The Referendum.

Post by plaques » 08 Jul 2016, 18:04

David Whipp wrote:This council and all its members commits to play its part, no matter how small, to implement the will of the people and support HM Government in ensuring the United Kingdom leaves the European Union."
What a strange motion. What if the Government of the day refuses to implement the plebiscite result? In truth the government will no doubt enter into various trade deals some of which could have a very negative effect on on local ,Pendle, grants and businesses. Are the council going to sit there with their mouths shut just so we get out of the EU or are you going to make your views known and get the best deal for Pendle? I suppose the first question to be asked would be "would the Tories support every motion that the the coalition council proposes just because they have a majority of votes"?

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Re: The Referendum.

Post by Stanley » 09 Jul 2016, 02:45

What a stupid and dangerous resolution... Nobody with an ounce of common sense expects leaving the EU to lead to an easing of the financial situation in any sphere of public life. Every indicator points to the opposite even now before any concrete steps have been taken to trigger exit. It's like agreeing blind adherence to a suicide pact, the details of which are going to be announced later.
Interesting that yesterday in his parliamentary column out MP made no mention at all about the Referendum but concentrated on Chilcot. I wonder how he voted in the single Parliamentary vote that sent us into Iraq?
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Re: The Referendum.

Post by Tripps » 09 Jul 2016, 09:45

" I wonder how he voted in the single Parliamentary vote that sent us into Iraq?"

If that's Andrew Stepehenson - he was on Macclesfield Borough Council at the time (2003), and was only elected to Parliament in 2010. :smile:
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Re: The Referendum.

Post by Tizer » 09 Jul 2016, 10:40

This episode of Radio 4's business programme The Bottom Line is very good. Atteslander gives a view from the Swiss perspective.

`Life after Brexit' LINK
How will the vote to leave the EU affect big and small businesses in the UK? Evan Davis and guests discuss trade deals, tariffs and 'passporting' rights that allow UK-based firms to sell financial products and services from Britain to EU customers. They'll also explore how companies can turn the current economic uncertainty into business opportunities.

Guests:
Anne Richards, CEO, M & G Investments
Juergen Maier, CEO Siemens UK
Julia Gash, Founder and CEO, BIDBI
Jan Atteslander, EconomieSuisse

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Re: The Referendum.

Post by Stanley » 10 Jul 2016, 04:27

It's a good programme, I often catch it last thing at night when I go to bed.
Just think about how much speculation and contingency planning is going on in the 'Phoney War' before we actually trigger Article 50....
There are more names than ever in my Political Black Book!
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Re: The Referendum.

Post by Tizer » 12 Jul 2016, 15:14

I've just read an article about farmers and the referendum. Apparently Farmers' Weekly magazine did a survey of how farmers voted and it was 65% for Leave, 35% for Remain. In view of all the subsidies received by UK farmers from the EU and the cheap labour from the EU this must surely class as `turkeys voting for Christmas'. And now the magazine reports that farmers are worrying that the result means it will be more difficult to export to the EU and they'll lose the migrant labour. Oh well...that's what you get when you let Joe Public make the big decisions. Sorry to be cynical but it's difficult not to be at the moment!

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Re: The Referendum.

Post by Sue » 12 Jul 2016, 20:49

Agreed Tiz
If you keep searching you will find it

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Re: The Referendum.

Post by Stanley » 13 Jul 2016, 03:46

Same here, madness.....
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Re: The Referendum.

Post by Big Kev » 13 Jul 2016, 08:08

You recently signed the petition “EU Referendum Rules triggering a 2nd EU Referendum”:
https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/131215

The Petitions Committee has decided to schedule a House of Commons debate on this petition. The debate will take place on 5 September at 4.30pm in Westminster Hall, the second debating chamber of the House of Commons. The debate will be opened by Ian Blackford MP.

The Committee has decided that the huge number of people signing this petition means that it should be debated by MPs. The Petitions Committee would like to make clear that, in scheduling this debate, they are not supporting the call for a second referendum. The debate will allow MPs to put forward a range of views on behalf of their constituents. At the end of the debate, a Government Minister will respond to the points raised.

A debate in Westminster Hall does not have the power to change the law, and won’t end with the House of Commons deciding whether or not to have a second referendum. Moreover, the petition – which was opened on 25 May, well before the referendum – calls for the referendum rules to be changed. It is now too late for the rules to be changed retrospectively. It will be up to the Government to decide whether it wants to start the process of agreeing a new law for a second referendum.

The Petitions Committee is a cross-party group of MPs. It is independent from Government. You can find out more about the Committee on its website: http://www.parliament.uk/petitions-committee/role

Thanks,
The Petitions team
UK Government and Parliament
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Re: The Referendum.

Post by Tizer » 13 Jul 2016, 08:43

I'd prefer not a second referendum but instead for the Government to carry out its duty and make an informed decision for us on whether we are better in or out of the European Union.

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Re: The Referendum.

Post by Stanley » 14 Jul 2016, 04:17

Quite! What dismays me is that exit is seen as a given when the due democratic process triggered by the referendum hasn't been pursued. The result was advisory, the next stage should be a full debate in Parliament and a decision based on that. All this seems to have been ditched.....
Listening to Cameron describing his period in office was a fascinating example of how different his personal view of 'legacy' differs from mine.... Not a word about the disaster of the referendum.... As for the much vaunted 'economic miracle', time will tell and I fear the verdict may be cruel.
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Re: The Referendum.

Post by Stanley » 15 Jul 2016, 04:48

See the Rowntree report on the vote (LINK) I trust them and this confirms what many of us thought, that the referendum was used as a protest vote by people who felt ignored by the government, they simply voted against the official recommendation.
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Re: The Referendum.

Post by Tizer » 15 Jul 2016, 09:26

There's also the problem that some people voted against Remain simply because that campaign was associated in their minds with the Tories which is ironic when it was really Tory activists who wanted us to be out and Labour who wanted in!

One of our friends is an ex-pat living in Canada and he was shocked by the referendum result. I wrote a summary for him explaining what went on and the effects of the result. His reply was:
"Thanks for your views on Brexit. I heartily agree with you that
referendums are a serious dereliction of our leaders duty to govern and I
had previously come to that conclusion over a referendum in Canada. The
irony of the poorer parts of Britain losing EU funding amply reinforces
this and was not reported in the Canadian media to my knowledge - how sad
when we are led by the least informed."


I've noticed several commentators in the last few days using the phrase `if we leave' rather than `when we leave' the EU. For all that we keep being told that there is no going back and brexit is forever, we haven't yet ticked the Article 50 box. I was surprised at first by the `if' but now I'm beginning to wonder. It's possible that events may render the referendum decision redundant or we might find that there is an insurmountable obstacle to brexit that the giant political brains haven't yet discovered. The events could be calamities such as war, famine, collapse of governments and the like which could make staying in a European Union far too important to ignore. Union could become simply too valuable to abandon. As for insurmountable obstacles there seems to be plenty of scope yet for finding exit just too difficult; after all, no country has yet left the EU and we've already been told it will take years and be very complicated. We might find it's more than just complicated, but that it's impossible to leave or at least impossible to leave without an unacceptable level of destruction to the UK. Of course the politicians want to be positive and optimistic which is all very well but, as we said before the referendum, no-one knows what life after brexit would be like - and we still don't know.

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Re: The Referendum.

Post by Stanley » 16 Jul 2016, 03:40

I share that view Tiz. What happens if there is a free vote in Parliament after a debate on Brexit. I say 'if' but to me that is a given, the referendum was advisory, the Parliamentary vote will be the final arbiter and surely cannot be avoided?
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Re: The Referendum.

Post by Tizer » 16 Jul 2016, 09:53

All I did was mention `collapse of governments' and within 24 hours we've had an attempted coup in Turkey. It shows how anything can happen and the best laid plans can get derailed. The Leave campaigners will now, of course, claim the Turkey situation confirms we were right to go for Brexit. But Bruff has already torpedoed the Turkey accession argument. While in the EU, the UK has the right to veto accession of any new countries including Turkey. It was unlikely to be welcomed for a long time anyway and now even less likely. This independent web site explains about our veto, which the Leave campaigners seemed to ignore: FullFacts

Note that once we leave the EU we no longer have that veto. The EU could welcome in countries that we wouldn't want next door to the UK, at least not until they've developed into democracies respecting human rights. But now those countries would become effectively `next door' to us. How ironic that Brexit could bring Turkey closer to us, just what the Brexiteers wanted to avoid.

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Re: The Referendum.

Post by Stanley » 17 Jul 2016, 03:43

The law of unintended consequences..... I think we'll be seeing a lot of examples of that. Cameron's Catastrophe!
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Re: The Referendum.

Post by plaques » 19 Jul 2016, 09:03

It has been mentioned on OG that the referendum was only advisory whereas our ex Prime minister Mr Cameron implied it was up to him when we should pull out. We now have the first legal challenge to say that it should go through parliament first. Link. What's going wrong with our system that virtually most major pronouncements have not been fully thought out before they go public. Perhaps reading the OG post should be compulsory for all MPs.

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