The Referendum.

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Re: The Referendum.

Post by Stanley » 28 Jun 2016, 03:47

What good posts and there is nothing I don't endorse. Ian is right about Jeremy Corbyn's position. All he has to do is sit tight through the process which is of course a contest between sitting MPs and the Membership. If he gets another mandate his path is clear but I have no evidence that he has the ability or will to force through changes. All we can do is sit back, keep calm and watch what happens...
Tiz is dead right "The government failed in its duty of democratic representation to take advice from the experts and make the decision itself and instead abandoned it to public opinion instead." No wonder Cameron is happy, as I commented at the time, he made a smart move when he announced he would be gone by October. I heard a 'politician' say yesterday that they have set up a study group to decide what course the government should take..... Really..... Wouldn't it have been a good idea to have some sort of a plan before triggering this catastrophe.
Meanwhile, after the initial knee-jerk reaction and a correction, the Lords of the Universe apply themselves to making the maximum profit from the crisis. Read Naomi Klein.
Coming from another direction I have a lot of sympathy with those commentators who say that the vote in the referendum was the ideal vehicle for Joe Public to protest and what we are looking at is a battle between the electorate and a rotten political system. Give me my due, I have been consistent in my criticism of that system, it is a 19th century mode of governance that is completely out of touch with the realities of a 21st century world. Read Piketty again.....
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Re: The Referendum.

Post by Tizer » 28 Jun 2016, 09:19

`Reality Check: Have Leave campaigners changed their minds?' LINK

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Re: The Referendum.

Post by Stanley » 29 Jun 2016, 03:53

Does this mean that the brexiteers were economical with the truth?
My reading of the present situation is that they are now desperately seeking a way to get a fall-guy(or girl) in place to take the hit of the poisoned chalice of managing our exit. Serves them right! Meanwhile we have no effective government. Brilliant!
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Re: The Referendum.

Post by PanBiker » 29 Jun 2016, 06:25

Aye and the Labour Party are ripping themselves apart thinking they have to be electable. Now the deed is done no one wants the job, let the Tories stew in it as long as possible. 2020 is plenty early enough if this government makes it to term. Put it back together after the meltdown with proper investment in the right areas like the socialist government did after WWII. We need infrastructure and housing, investment in health and transport, (ring any bells). Put the money in at the bottom and empower the working man. Engage the electorate now with the alternatives, we don't need a plastic candidate to do that.
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Re: The Referendum.

Post by Whyperion » 29 Jun 2016, 16:30

In some ways stuff is still ticking on fairly well without an effective 'government'. I sometimes wonder if the economy does things despite what the government ( at any parlimentary level ) does, rather than because of it.

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Re: The Referendum.

Post by Stanley » 30 Jun 2016, 03:16

Ian, from the experience of the referendum, we need someone who tells the truth.
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Re: The Referendum.

Post by PanBiker » 30 Jun 2016, 09:57

Indeed Stanley, an unprecedented challenge but Jeremy is the only bloke that didn't perpetuate the myths claimed during the campaign. Angela Eagle has been taken to task by her CLP executive, she could be risking all with her challenge. It will be interesting to see how the rest of the PLP react if he gets a further mandate.

I met her during our selection of Parliamentary Candidate back in 1992 when we elected Gordon, she's OK but wrong in her challenge, she has forgotten the basic principles of democratic selection. The PLP want an instant entry into government. I say it again, what for? We need the next government like a hole in the head. Put the principles and policies in place first and win the electorate back. There is no such thing as an un electable candidate if you put your case over properly.
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Re: The Referendum.

Post by Tizer » 30 Jun 2016, 10:10

I heard a repeat this morning of BoJo's claim that the director of Germany's equivalent of our CBI has said Britain will be able to trade with Germany as before Brexit. The director has already reported that he never said any such thing. But then we know that BoJo thought it was OK to make up news stories when he worked for a newspaper (and got sacked for it).

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Re: The Referendum.

Post by Whyperion » 30 Jun 2016, 13:20

Sometimes telling the truth gets you disliked, or the economy wrecked. A good lie can change confidence and become self fulfilling, if you are lucky.

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Re: The Referendum.

Post by Stanley » 01 Jul 2016, 04:15

Couldn't agree more Ian. Noticeable that the present trend is to shy away from constitutional methods of selection, Angela delays her challenge, Bojo scuttles (or is defenestrated) and Cameron waits for Theresa to let him off the hook. It's making me feel poorly......
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Re: The Referendum.

Post by PanBiker » 01 Jul 2016, 08:58

I still think the BoJo thing is a put up job, he doesn't want to lose to Theresa May which would be terminal so has taken himself out of the firing line. The stabbing in the back by Gove is just an excuse and the fall guy will be paid one way or the other later. It was interesting when he delivered his bombshell announcement at what should have been his entry into the ring yesterday that he was grinning when he said "cannot be the candidate". I think that should have been "will not". He's not been stabbed, I reckon he is just biding his time until the flak has settled. Theresa will take it to full term which should just about be right.

I knew there was something about Angela when we didn't select her as prospective parliamentary candidate for Pendle. Is that really 24 years ago? She was eye catching and impressive but not impressive enough. As you know we selected Gordon and I know which way he would vote. Trotskyism apart I will just quote one of the earlier ILP and Labour Party mantras "Socialism our Hope". It was good enough to bring forth out of extreme adversity the welfare state, equal rights and the National Health Service. It can serve us well again if given a chance.
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Re: The Referendum.

Post by Tripps » 01 Jul 2016, 10:06

" It was good enough to bring forth out of extreme adversity the welfare state, equal rights and the National Health Service. It can serve us well again if given a chance."

Isn't it true that these aims have been (more or less) achieved? Is it possible that the Labour Party has outlived its usefulness? Discuss. I think SCG's point that we are using 19th C methods in the 21st C is relevant.
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Re: The Referendum.

Post by plaques » 01 Jul 2016, 10:15

This is my own conspiracy theory. The Blairite Labour party are casting around for a candidate who might stand a chance against Corbyn. If they won they would be then pressured to stand down, (career ending move), Then there would be no obligating to get Corbyn on the ballet paper. The choice of candidates would then be restricted to the 'right' kind of people. Perhaps Angela is too bright or too honest to get involved in these maneuverings.

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Re: The Referendum.

Post by PanBiker » 01 Jul 2016, 10:55

Tripps wrote:" It was good enough to bring forth out of extreme adversity the welfare state, equal rights and the National Health Service. It can serve us well again if given a chance."

Isn't it true that these aims have been (more or less) achieved?
Not while the fiscal policy is still to pour billions into the top of the economy instead of shoving it in at the bottom where it will do more good. Give it to the working man via training schemes and apprenticeships into useful trades that can enhance the infrastructure. Those same workers will spend the money and it will percolate upwards adding more wealth on the way. I will say it again, there should be no holes in the road while there are people on the dole. My dad provided for his his family after being skilled up by a government initiative training scheme in 1947. We need roads mending, houses building and nurses training. It can be done if the money goes in the right place. As long as the policy is to pay people to stay on the dole it will never change, it's socially irresponsible. Enable and pay people to work.

You can draw an analogy with the current state of the country to what it was like after the war. Although our present situation has been brought about by government policy of years of under investment and austerity rather than bombs. We have hundreds of thousands of young and unskilled people currently on the dole and the infrastructure is broken. Governments can choose to perpetuate that or do something about it.
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Re: The Referendum.

Post by Stanley » 02 Jul 2016, 03:45

Ian is saving me a lot of writing time. He is exactly right and I endorse everything he has said....
David, my comment about 19th century politics is based on a lot of reading of history. My conclusion is that apart from the purely political reasons why we have our present system there lies behind it a larger problem. It can broadly be described as 'tradition'. Much is made of how good we British are at putting on a spectacle and how respected it is world-wide, bringing in admirers and tourism. When you read the history you gradually realise that using 'tradition' is largely a PR exercise, much of it re-invented by the Victorians when the Crown was in danger due to Victoria's reclusive life after Albert's death. Elements of history were cherry picked and revived to reinforce the myth of the natural hierarchy, 'The Rich Man in his Castle, the Poor Man at his gate', it even got into a hymn! (LINK)
The physical layout of the main debating chamber at Westminster is even older, it's 17th century. Sitting in the Speaker's chair, the establishment/Royalists are on the right, the non-establishment/Republicans are on the left. The lines on the floor before the front benches are there to preserve two sword length distance between the government and Opposition. Even the security staff wear 17th century clothes. (Not an absolute truth of course when the republicans gain the government of course but the inference is that they are all Royalists because they swore allegiance to the Crown on election but you get the picture.)
Time to blow all this crap away and have a modern chamber with everyone facing the Chair. Bring in modern electronic voting, streamline all the procedures of the House and create a completely different atmosphere. Now is the time to do it, the present building is rotten and sinking into the mud but it won't happen, tradition will win the day.
The 19th century analogy applies to what I am sure is the Tory Project. Drive the lower classes down into their place at the castle gate. 'Market Forces' is the modern equivalent of 19th century 'Laissez faire'. Remember Thatcher.... "Be grateful you have got a job..."
Sorry, I'm rambling here.... I get so angry! Read Piketty and Stiglitz again, go back further and read Marx (not the full version of Das Kapital' it's impossible, read the abridged version, £4.49 on this LINK). Then range through the wealth of Socialist literature, plenty out there and most of it very good. The irony is of course that democratic socialism is quite obviously the best way for the wealthy to preserve their comfortable world but as soon as this involves distribution of wealth the shutters come down. I'll shut up....
One last thought though, like it or not Cameron opened the gate to the public having a say. The mistake was to couch the question in binary terms because the protest vote was guaranteed to go to Brexit. That's what opened the flood gates, not dissatisfaction with the EU. Now we pay for stupidity.
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Re: The Referendum.

Post by PanBiker » 02 Jul 2016, 12:18

I have moved the last few posts into a new thread Voting Systems for discussion and to keep this one on topic.
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Re: The Referendum.

Post by Tripps » 02 Jul 2016, 13:46

Thanks for the response. It will keep me thinking for the rest of the afternoon. Some I strongly agree with - some I don't. Good to have access to someone who knows of such things though, and no expensive Spectator type subscription required. :smile:
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Re: The Referendum.

Post by Stanley » 03 Jul 2016, 02:53

One more thought David. The early socialist movements had more than a hint of non-conformist religion about them. The established Anglican Church was once described as 'The Tory Party at prayer'. More than a hint of the truth there.
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Re: The Referendum.

Post by chinatyke » 03 Jul 2016, 03:18

I've heard Catholics called left-footers, were Anglicans (the Tory party at prayer) right-footers and is this the origin?

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Re: The Referendum.

Post by Stanley » 03 Jul 2016, 04:12

Never heard that one China.....
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Re: The Referendum.

Post by chinatyke » 03 Jul 2016, 05:42

It was said by a mill-worker lady many years ago when I asked for directions in Farnworth. She directed "me up the brow, past where the left-footers are (Catholic church)..."

I've since Googled it and it was nothing to do with politics.

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Re: The Referendum.

Post by Tizer » 03 Jul 2016, 10:10

The Romans regarded the right side (dextral) as safe and the left side (sinistral) as evil, treacherous or mysterious, which is were we get our use of the word sinister. I guess left footer may derive from that.

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Re: The Referendum.

Post by Marilyn » 03 Jul 2016, 10:19

( oooo...Tizer...I am trying so hard to commit that little gem to the memory banks...cos I just know it will come in useful one day...it is a beauty)

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Re: The Referendum.

Post by Tripps » 03 Jul 2016, 10:21

I think I'd go for the connection with digging peat, and the difference between spade designs.
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Re: The Referendum.

Post by chinatyke » 03 Jul 2016, 10:33

Tripps wrote:I think I'd go for the connection with digging peat, and the difference between spade designs.
I think you're right!

Perhaps we should get back onto the topic!

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