Re: Voting Systems

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Re: Voting Systems

Post by Marilyn » 12 Jul 2016, 02:40

We always get miffed that we have to vote in PENCIL, Liz...

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Re: Voting Systems

Post by Stanley » 12 Jul 2016, 03:41

Nobody got a chance to use a pencil or anything else in the assumption of the new Iron Lady Maz. She's talking inclusive now but wait and see.....
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Re: Voting Systems

Post by LizG » 12 Jul 2016, 06:03

They must think we'll pinch the pens Maz. Although my pencil was tied to the booth too.... And it needed sharpening by 10am.

Is the problem with your new PM the side of politics she represents or the way she got the job?
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Re: Voting Systems

Post by PanBiker » 12 Jul 2016, 08:19

Both, she's there with no mandate and she's a Tory so her policies are not mine. Best woman for the job though, it's a poison chalice.

We also had the conspiracy debate about making your mark with a pencil, pointless with our after the ballot counting and declaration.
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Re: Voting Systems

Post by Tripps » 12 Jul 2016, 09:32

After the referendum I have seen figures for a breakdown of voters - e.g. how various age groups voted. Does anyone know how this information was obtained? I remember it was said that there was no exit poll at the time, since there were no comparators. Perhaps it was a survey - they're always very accurate aren't they? :smile:
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Re: Voting Systems

Post by Tizer » 12 Jul 2016, 09:52

Maz, Liz, many of us are thankful to have got a new PM quickly, and relieved it isn't Boris Johnson or Michael Gove. Theresa May is experienced in government and has worked at the Bank of England. She's widely regarded as `a safe pair of hands' and someone who is quite capable of dealing with the posh Eton Boys who have dominated the government. If the job is going to be a `poisoned chalice' she's the kind of person to just get on and deal with it. As I often point out here, I don't support any political party. I think we're lucky to have her for PM,it could be a lot worse. There's nowhere else to look for one at the moment, the Labour Party is in crisis and the LibDems have vanished.

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Re: Re: Voting Systems

Post by Whyperion » 18 Jul 2016, 10:09

Pencil Marking.
Supposedly a good graphite pencil mark is difficult to remove complete, even with an eraser. Pen inks, from quill designs, could be washed away and no visible trace remain, but pencil marking leaves indentation on the paper which can be viewed, notice or otherwise discovered easily.

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Re: Voting Systems

Post by PanBiker » 18 Jul 2016, 10:40

The stubby pencils provided at the voting booths have a graphite/wax lead designed specifically to avoid ballot rigging as the mark is difficult to erase. This renders the conspiracy theorists arguments regarding changing votes completely redundant but none of them will accept this which is suppose is the nature of conspiracy theorists everywhere. :wink:
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Re: Voting Systems

Post by Tizer » 19 Jul 2016, 07:12

Perhaps the booths should be equipped with a simple hole stamp so voters can punch a hole next to their choice?

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Re: Voting Systems

Post by LizG » 19 Jul 2016, 07:21

Tizer wrote:Perhaps the booths should be equipped with a simple hole stamp so voters can punch a hole next to their choice?
Nice idea, I can see all the informal voters having a great time with a hole punch. Confetti everywhere. But seriously we have to vote 1-6 in the lower house and 1-12 for the senate; bit hard with a hole punch.
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Re: Voting Systems

Post by PanBiker » 19 Jul 2016, 07:46

The system we have now is tried and tested and perfectly fit for purpose short of more education and engagement for the electorate. Compulsory voting would sort out the shortfall there. It's very labour intensive though with the mechanism for running the polls and the following counting process. It could be improved with electronic scanning techniques or moving to complete electronic voting but that would be a completely new can of worms.

Issue, mark, collect, count, ticks the box for me. :grin:

Any news on your turnout Liz?
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Re: Voting Systems

Post by LizG » 19 Jul 2016, 23:50

We haven't even found out the makeup of the senate yet. It could be a while before we find out the turnout info. It'll come out when they start issuing fines!!
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Re: Voting Systems

Post by Stanley » 23 Jul 2016, 06:43

Anyone remember the problems in a US election with 'hanging chads' ? (punch card paper ballots resulting in hanging, dimpled, or pregnant chad.)
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Re: Voting Systems

Post by David Whipp » 23 Jul 2016, 08:53

Yes, the election where the Democrats would have won if they'd stuck it out and not conceded...
Last edited by David Whipp on 23 Jul 2016, 19:31, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Voting Systems

Post by Tizer » 23 Jul 2016, 09:51

Florida!

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Re: Voting Systems

Post by Stanley » 24 Jul 2016, 04:26

That's right. No system is perfect but some are worse than others. The key ingredient is getting the public to vote and the thing that strikes me is the increase in Labour membership post Corbyn Effect. The public on the whole aren't apathetic, simply fed up with modern spin and lie based politics.
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Re: Voting Systems

Post by Tizer » 24 Jul 2016, 11:23

But we still don't know why all those people joined the Labour Party - was it because they like Corbyn or hate him?

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Re: Voting Systems

Post by PanBiker » 24 Jul 2016, 11:47

We will have to wait and see.
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Re: Voting Systems

Post by Tripps » 24 Jul 2016, 12:06

" was it because they like Corbyn or hate him?"

Either could be a reason to vote for him. :smile:
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Re: Voting Systems

Post by PanBiker » 24 Jul 2016, 12:50

Tizer wrote:But we still don't know why all those people joined the Labour Party - was it because they like Corbyn or hate him?
Just to set the record straight, the thousands that have signed up between the 18th and 20th July are supporters, not members of the party. Fully paid up members such as myself and Stanley will not get a vote due to the actions of the NEC after the Corbyn selection.

The registered supporters scheme (AKA stacking) is not supported by the left of the party which encourages joining the party as a full or associate member if you wish to take part in internal selections and ballots which includes voting for the leadership.

The current juxtaposition is due to the makeup of the incumbent NEC who have effectively disenfranchised the tens of thousands of socialist supporters who signed up after Corbyn was originally elected as leader. This is a last ditch effort to influence the outcome of the leadership ballot.

What they have actually done by their actions is to antagonise the rank and file activist members, the ones that actually make it all happen for them. They are biting the hand that feeds them and the probability is that there will be a huge backlash at branch and constituency level. You can't actually de select an elected candidate but you can refuse to endorse and find an alternative for the next term. It could be very difficult for some of the existing members of the PLP. They will find out themselves what it is like to be stabbed in the back. This will not be Jeremy Corbyns doing but all self inflicted.
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Re: Voting Systems

Post by Pluggy » 24 Jul 2016, 16:34

PanBiker wrote:
Tizer wrote:But we still don't know why all those people joined the Labour Party - was it because they like Corbyn or hate him?
Just to set the record straight, the thousands that have signed up between the 18th and 20th July are supporters, not members of the party. Fully paid up members such as myself and Stanley will not get a vote due to the actions of the NEC after the Corbyn selection.

The registered supporters scheme (AKA stacking) is not supported by the left of the party which encourages joining the party as a full or associate member if you wish to take part in internal selections and ballots which includes voting for the leadership.

The current juxtaposition is due to the makeup of the incumbent NEC who have effectively disenfranchised the tens of thousands of socialist supporters who signed up after Corbyn was originally elected as leader. This is a last ditch effort to influence the outcome of the leadership ballot.

What they have actually done by their actions is to antagonise the rank and file activist members, the ones that actually make it all happen for them. They are biting the hand that feeds them and the probability is that there will be a huge backlash at branch and constituency level. You can't actually de select an elected candidate but you can refuse to endorse and find an alternative for the next term. It could be very difficult for some of the existing members of the PLP. They will find out themselves what it is like to be stabbed in the back. This will not be Jeremy Corbyns doing but all self inflicted.
I'm no fan of Corbyn and agree that the Labour party does need to make changes, but that sucks......
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Re: Voting Systems

Post by Stanley » 25 Jul 2016, 04:25

Tiz, my original comment was that the numbers who have signed up, for whatever reason, demonstrates that certain issues do move the electorate to action. There could be a good reason for apathy in other contests.
Ian states the case well and Pluggy is right, it is a desperate and unfair gambit to gag voters like Ian and myself, they are after all taking our money on Direct Debits which are in place and active.
My own reading of the situation is that this is the latest bid of the Right Wing (Most likely Blairite) faction of the Party (Most of the MPs) to stifle what is evidently a change in the mood of the Party generated by Jeremy Corbyn who as you may have noticed speaks his mind. I don't agree with all his policies but he is not imposing them on the Party, just speaking truth and asking for endorsement or modification in an effort to set aims and objective in place that members can agree on and support. Many of the MPs see this as a threat to their powers and so they are fighting a large proportion of the membership. The upcoming Leadership vote and the NEC election could give an indication of the relative strength of the two factions.
If the result is endorsement of Corbyn and his views I see the possibility of a split in the Party, indeed I would support this as even if Jeremy wins he will be hampered by the constant flow of disloyal activities and the efforts of the Tories to destabilise Labour. Make no mistake, they see Corbyn politics as a serious threat! This is not democratic!
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Re: Voting Systems

Post by Tizer » 25 Jul 2016, 09:50

Perhaps I'm naive but shouldn't the leader of a political party be chosen by it's Members of Parliament? They are the representatives of the people and should make the choice for them in the same way that MPs should have made the decision for us about whether to leave the EU.

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Re: Voting Systems

Post by PanBiker » 25 Jul 2016, 10:15

I would agree that the EU decision should have been debated and voted on by parliament but not your first point Tiz.

It is right and proper that all party leaders should be elected by the membership they represent not by their peers, that just perpetuates the "jobs for the boys" syndrome. All committee structure effectively works the same in a democracy.

Unless of course you are in the Tory Party in which case you can be placed in the position of Prime Minister with a nod from the 1922 committee. The Labour Party NEC is trying to play the same game to usurp the democratic process but it won't work.
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Re: Voting Systems

Post by plaques » 25 Jul 2016, 11:28

Tizer wrote:I'm naive but shouldn't the leader of a political party be chosen by it's Members of Parliament?
I may be slightly wrong on the detail of this but the Labour leader used to be elected through block voting by the MP's and the Trade Unions. Tony Blair first floated the idea that it would be beneficial to the Right Wingers to let Joe Public in the form of middle class housewives to get into the act. When David Miliband was out block voted by the unions to let is brother Ed in as leader it was then thought it opportune to go down the Blair route. So much for our far seeing know all MP's. The rest is history.

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