POLITICS CORNER

Bruff
Avid User
Posts: 822
Joined: 24 Jan 2012, 08:42
Location: Hoylake, Wirral - for the moment

Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Bruff » 14 Sep 2017, 08:48

Quite right Stanley. Nothing to do with us. We’re leaving and the EU will go its way. So what if it develops an EU army? There’s lots of cooperation anyway – the Dutch armoured Corps are under German command I think as it’s more efficient for them. Plus the Dutch have got over ‘the war’ so cooperating with the Germans on military matters is fine, unlike us who are far too immature to contemplate that. One EU President? So? There’s the Parliament and Council of Ministers and European Council and the Commission and for a while there’s been discussions whether there needs to be some single accountability. Nothing sinister really. As for ‘offering Cameron concessions’ well first we had plenty anyway so you might think the EU were becoming rather fatigued by the UK’s pleading. But more to the point, they may very well have done had the UK bothered to do its homework and not swan up expecting the EU to just roll-over. As Cameron’s then chief-of-staff Craig Oliver noted in his book, on every argument the UK took seeking these concessions the EU, who had done their homework, shot it down with evidenced-based rebuttals. I want doesn’t get I’m afraid, as the UK is now being reminded of yet again.

And I suppose we could ask the citizens of Poland and Hungary whether they perceive whatever treatment they are getting at the hands of the EU as reminiscent of the Soviet Union. Admittedly, the Latvians, Estonians and Lithuanians might bring a better perspective because as you know, they were actually part of that Union. It’s at once difficult to keep a straight face and at the same time stop your head popping at the bone-headed idiocy when Brexiters come out with this sort of nonsense over the EU. The said Baltic States did not exist as free countries; the Iron Curtain shrouded Eastern Europe in dictatorships, one-party communism, riddled with secret police; Spain was a fascist dictatorship, as was Portugal essentially; the Greeks were run by a military Junta. This was as recent as the 70s and 80s. And along come chumps like Farage comparing the EU to that lot, whilst singing hosannas to regaining our freedom and our independence! That’s why we’re a laughing stock. The stupidity is astonishing, but it’s the insult that’s worse. Every time he stands up he embarrasses himself. The populist wave? The populist wave in Europe began and ended in the UK. He can bang on all he likes in his invited addresses to the fascist-in-suits of Germany’s AfD at their meeting in Spandau last weekend but frankly, no one gives a toss. Wishing for Europe to follow the UK is a pipe dream largely of the Brexiters fevered imaginings. Brexit could, and will, only happen in the UK.

Richard Broughton

Bruff
Avid User
Posts: 822
Joined: 24 Jan 2012, 08:42
Location: Hoylake, Wirral - for the moment

Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Bruff » 14 Sep 2017, 09:59

Just to add, worth copying the relevant section from Juncker’s address, which so upset Farage.

"My hope is that on 30 March 2019, Europeans will wake up to a Union where we all stand by our values. Where all Member States firmly respect the rule of law. Where being a full member of the euro area, the Banking Union and the Schengen area has become the norm for all EU Member States. Where we have shored up the foundations of our Economic and Monetary Union so that we can defend our single currency in good times and bad, without having to call on external help. Where our single market will be fairer towards workers from the East and from the West. Where we managed to agree on a strong pillar of social standards. Where profits will be taxed where they were made. Where terrorists have no loopholes to exploit. Where we have agreed on a proper European Defence Union. Where a single President leads the work of the Commission and the European Council, having been elected after a democratic Europe-wide election campaign.

If our citizens wake up to this Union on 30 March 2019, then they should be able vote in the European Parliament elections a few weeks later with the firm conviction that our Union is a place that works for them."



Would have seemed OK to me that. Not to many in the UK of course, and as we had a veto we’d have vetoed most of it no doubt. Knowing we have/had a veto, it puzzling why Farage takes the speech as evidence for the merits of our leaving. His reasoning’s absurd.

Richard Broughton

User avatar
Stanley
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 39240
Joined: 23 Jan 2012, 12:01
Location: Barnoldswick. Nearer to Heaven than Gloria.

Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Stanley » 15 Sep 2017, 03:36

I agree with all that Richard. The aims Juncker set out are totally laudable and one would like to hear a plain optimistic statement like that from a senior politician here. What's wrong with a President in a Federal System? I can think of places where it works (Just!).
An perceptive friend of mine who is a US citizen but domiciled in England sent me this mail this morning. Worth a ponder, he's no duck egg!
One thing that has struck us about Britain since we have started to live here permanently is that there is an underlying feeling of defeatism. There just don’t seem to be positive accomplishments, and life is not getting easier for the British. When we were in Spain a couple of weeks ago, we were surprised at what we saw. One hears about how the British economy is so much stronger than Spain’s, but Spain seemed more prosperous than Britain. The roads were well paved and well maintained. The cities were clean, and we saw virtually no litter. The people also seemed happy. Some of this may have been superficial, but it was striking.
Worth lo0oking at THIS, a BBC report on the rough ride G4S executives were given in committee yesterday. Basically they said 'not me guv'; and refused to discuss profits. Not reported here, Christopher Chope disagreed with Yvette Cooper and leapt to the defence of G4S. I couldn't help wondering what the linkages are between G4S and the Tory Party which has allowed them such a charmed life. Remember the problems with electronic tagging?
A while ago I retailed a report from PE that suggested one reason for lack of progress on agreement over borders could be the fact that HMRC were not fit for purpose if given more responsibility. See THIS for a statement from the HMRC chairman corroborating everything that PE published. It will take 5 to 7 years to get the systems in place, thousands of staff and increased funding. All this pre-supposes that they are given the go-ahead to start immediately.
Sorry but one more snippet from this morning's news.... See THIS for a report on the fact that only 1/4 of royal navy ships are capable of putting to sea. The Tories trumpet their strength on defence but the reality is a joke.
Stanley Challenger Graham
Stanley's View
scg1936 at talktalk.net

"Beware of certitude" (Jimmy Reid)
The floggings will continue until morale improves!

User avatar
Stanley
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 39240
Joined: 23 Jan 2012, 12:01
Location: Barnoldswick. Nearer to Heaven than Gloria.

Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Stanley » 16 Sep 2017, 04:04

Yesterday's bomb outrage at Parson's Green is handy for May, she can appear on our screens being positive and authoritative. Boris tells us yet again about our glorious prospects outside the EU and hints that we will probably make some payment for divorce. I get the feeling we are being prepared for a figure not far short of £75billion. So much for previous opinions that we needn't pay anything and would save millions every day....... Was there ever such a duplicitous campaign? And on this basis the referendum has tipped us into the biggest black hole we have ever faced. Let us never forget who was responsible.....
Later..... I've just seen THIS Guardian report of Boris Johnson's article. I can't believe that he is actually going back to the widely derided figure of £350million week saving and even further, has said that there will be no ongoing payments to the EU for treaty commitments (in addition to the lump sum). I think the Guardian reporter is right, there's more to this than meets the eye.
Stanley Challenger Graham
Stanley's View
scg1936 at talktalk.net

"Beware of certitude" (Jimmy Reid)
The floggings will continue until morale improves!

User avatar
Stanley
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 39240
Joined: 23 Jan 2012, 12:01
Location: Barnoldswick. Nearer to Heaven than Gloria.

Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Stanley » 17 Sep 2017, 04:18

I think we could be forgiven for getting the impression that the government isn't reading from a uniform hymn sheet. See THIS for a statement by Boris that he is totally behind Mrs May over Brexit despite the fact that he has just written an article which as Vince Cable says, is advocating a much harder Brexit than the line Number Ten seems to be promoting.
The essential difference between the EU approach to the negotiations and ours seem to me to be that the EU has laid out publicly their internal directives agreed by all 27 members but our response has been foghorn 'diplomacy'. The speech at Florence is a good example. It seems to me that what is needed is a clear counter-proposal from the UK and the difference between to two views is the start of hard negotiation. This isn't happening because we have not responded to the EU directives. I suspect this is because our government has not accepted the realities of Brexit and is still at the stage where it is trying to modify the EU's clear and public agenda. Meanwhile, the clock is ticking and we are 15 months into the 24 month run up to the inevitable exit. By now we should be near to an agreement about Citizen's Rights, the Irish Question and the compensation we owe under treaty obligations this allowing trade matters to be addressed. The fact that this hasn't happened indicates how much trouble we are running into......
Stanley Challenger Graham
Stanley's View
scg1936 at talktalk.net

"Beware of certitude" (Jimmy Reid)
The floggings will continue until morale improves!

User avatar
Tizer
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 7795
Joined: 23 Jan 2012, 19:46
Location: Somerset, UK

Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Tizer » 17 Sep 2017, 10:34

Stanley wrote:
15 Sep 2017, 03:36
One thing that has struck us about Britain since we have started to live here permanently is that there is an underlying feeling of defeatism.
I'm sure one of the major contributing factors is that the companies and other organisations which now control so much of our lives are in disarray, badly managed, inefficient and wasting our time right, left and centre. It's one of the reasons that UK productivity is so low. We spend so much time trying to interact with these organisations and sort out their demands and mistakes. It's depressing and leads to pessimism about the UK's future.

User avatar
Stanley
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 39240
Joined: 23 Jan 2012, 12:01
Location: Barnoldswick. Nearer to Heaven than Gloria.

Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Stanley » 18 Sep 2017, 03:38

I'm sure that's a factor Tiz. I do my best to avoid all contact with big organisations. It's one of the reasons I don't chase 'cheaper' suppliers. I have this theory that the simpler you keep contact with them and the lower your profile, the less grief you have. Our long running skirmish with HMRC over probate is a case in point. Jarndyce v. Jarndyce......
The Boris Brexit affair highlights the state of the Tory Party on Brexit. The general consensus is that May is furious but has no power inside the party and if she attempted to sack him it would almost certainly trigger off a leadership battle, the last thing they want. It doesn't say much for the chances of any progress towards a resolution and the clock ticks on inexorably.
Meanwhile, the pound climbs in value but only on the possibility of an interest rate rise. Changes based on ephemeral evidence like this is illusory. A report this morning reports that GDP growth in the EU this year will be twice the rate of that in the UK. This is the first time in six years that this has happened. The accolade of weakest performance in Europe may be moving across the channel!
May flies off to Canada for 'trade talks'. She leaves behind her a party divided by Boris's 4,000 word policy statement. The Tory conference could be a turbulent affair. Can anyone believe that this helps a constructive negotiation with the EU? The priorities inside the Tory Party seem to be oriented more towards avoiding a leadership dispute than progressing Brexit. It is a disgrace.
Stanley Challenger Graham
Stanley's View
scg1936 at talktalk.net

"Beware of certitude" (Jimmy Reid)
The floggings will continue until morale improves!

plaques
Donor
Posts: 2188
Joined: 23 May 2013, 22:09

Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by plaques » 18 Sep 2017, 07:50

"We don't have a leadership crisis we have a leader crisis." Goebbels on Hitler. In Mrs May's case they all want rid of her but nobody wants her job, that is not at this moment. Then we have the crazy situation that we have to wait until she makes a trip out of the country before she tells US what's in store for us. Meanwhile the rightwing press reports some bland comment, taking care not to rock the boat, making it sound all so normal for governments to act in this way. But when Labour's Tom Watson and Keir Starmer differed on the detail of how to trade with the EU it was headlined as Labour in chaos. Somehow I get the feeling that the Brexit is in denial and when time runs out it is their (EU's) fault. Which is what the plan, if you can call it a plan, was about all along.

User avatar
Stanley
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 39240
Joined: 23 Jan 2012, 12:01
Location: Barnoldswick. Nearer to Heaven than Gloria.

Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Stanley » 19 Sep 2017, 04:13

What a good post! Exactly my view. A key member of the government (Boris) putting forward a different policy in the name of 'clarification of the options and a note of optimism' while his leader explains the local difficulty in a foreign capital.
Did you see THIS? It looks as though My has moved him into Downing Street to give her more leverage in the negotiations which, up to now, she has found that she has been excluded from. So she's never had the chance to do her 'Bloody difficult woman' bit.
Which is what the plan, if you can call it a plan, was about all along. Normally P, such thoughts would be dismissed as conspiracy theory but like you I have a suspicion, based on evidence and logic, that you may be closer to the truth than is comfortable. Looking at the growth in power of London, the disproportionate amount of public investment in its infrastructure and the general pre-eminence of the City in politics and the class who would benefit from less regulation and more money laundering, it's difficult to dismiss the idea out of hand. Is this the biggest con-trick ever?
If you recoil from this thesis, consider this.... If you are a corrupt politician or an oligarch who has manipulated the system successfully and you want a safe haven for your ill-gotten gains, where do you go? One of the favourite locations is London property. We have a cooperative regime which has virtually abandoned regulation of this market and if you don't believe this, go to the Private Eye website and look at the Land Registry information they have collated. Remember the faux pas at Buck's House when a conversation was recorded between the Queen and some of our leaders when Nigerian corruption was openly discussed and the Nigerian Presidents comment that he wasn't interested in the legalities, all he wanted to do was retrieve the funds that had been salted away here by proven criminals. The tip of an iceberg.
Stanley Challenger Graham
Stanley's View
scg1936 at talktalk.net

"Beware of certitude" (Jimmy Reid)
The floggings will continue until morale improves!

User avatar
Tripps
Senior Member
Posts: 2450
Joined: 23 Jan 2012, 14:56

Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Tripps » 19 Sep 2017, 09:49

I thought I noticed that in her speech in Canada yesterday Mrs May made a reference to Ukraine. I Googled to see if I had, and found from the Guardian -

"May is still speaking. She says Britain and Ukraine will take part in joint military exercises in Ukraine. They are both promoting Nato reform, she says. And they are working together on counter-terrorism."

What is ' Nato reform', and why is Ukraine to be involved in it? My immediate thought was - well, they've learned nothing, and repeated the 19th century Afghan Wars - what next another Crimean War?
Born to be mild. . .

User avatar
Stanley
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 39240
Joined: 23 Jan 2012, 12:01
Location: Barnoldswick. Nearer to Heaven than Gloria.

Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Stanley » 20 Sep 2017, 03:22

To bloody true David! BBC4 did a good film on Gertrude Bell, well worth a watch. It was broadcast on September 18th.
I noted Trump threatening to 'destroy N Korea' in his speech to the UN. Shades of Khrushchev and the Cold War! The world is going mad and the Israeli contingent cheered every word he said.
I'd like to see less foghorn diplomacy and more productive discussions in back rooms by anonymous civil servants..... Rumour is that she will disclose the offer of a definite amount of money in Florence. That will send half the Tories into orbit!
Stanley Challenger Graham
Stanley's View
scg1936 at talktalk.net

"Beware of certitude" (Jimmy Reid)
The floggings will continue until morale improves!

User avatar
Tripps
Senior Member
Posts: 2450
Joined: 23 Jan 2012, 14:56

Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Tripps » 20 Sep 2017, 08:01

Some good stuff on BBC4 - History of Jerusalem last night - They've been killing each other in numbers for millenia there, and crucifixion was not just a one off for Christ as was implied during my childhood - - they spoke of 500 crucifixions a day during one particularly tough time. Interesting to have it confirmed that the death of King Herod was as nasty as the nuns told us when I was six. Eaten up by worms - I always thought they'd made it up for effect. :smile:

Best to have nothing to do with any religion I'd say - even the Buddhists have turned nasty.

Never heard of Gertrude Bell I'll chase it up when I have time. (Work - what was that?) I saw the name Doughty - Wiley in that entry - that rings a small bell deep in the brain.

So much to read - so little time. . . :smile:
Born to be mild. . .

User avatar
Stanley
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 39240
Joined: 23 Jan 2012, 12:01
Location: Barnoldswick. Nearer to Heaven than Gloria.

Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Stanley » 21 Sep 2017, 03:43

She, and that era, are fascinating David. Therein lie many of the seeds of the present difficulties.... Those areas and the population were the cradle of our civilization and we treated them with contempt. Astonishing arrogance and hubris. They have long memories......
May fighting hard to give the impression of a united front on Brexit but I'm afraid failing miserably. No wonder the world laughs at us......
Stanley Challenger Graham
Stanley's View
scg1936 at talktalk.net

"Beware of certitude" (Jimmy Reid)
The floggings will continue until morale improves!

User avatar
Stanley
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 39240
Joined: 23 Jan 2012, 12:01
Location: Barnoldswick. Nearer to Heaven than Gloria.

Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Stanley » 22 Sep 2017, 06:25

Today is the day when Theresa May has to make enough of a move towards the EU position to form a basis for next week when the next round of discussions in Brussels starts. I fear she is still trying to change the EU's stated negotiating precedence and this will be the main stumbling block. As I forecast a long time ago, they hold all the cards now, we are supplicants, and have no control. We either adhere to their framework or get bogged down again. The most telling comment I heard came from a German politician who commented that managing Brexit would be a herculean task for a strong leader in charge of a stable government, it is mission impossible for one in May's position. I fear there may be some truth in that. It is going to affect the quality of the final settlement.
Trump and Kim Jong-un trade quite disgraceful insults while the diplomats work behind the scenes to try to get talks going. This is so dangerous.....
Stanley Challenger Graham
Stanley's View
scg1936 at talktalk.net

"Beware of certitude" (Jimmy Reid)
The floggings will continue until morale improves!

plaques
Donor
Posts: 2188
Joined: 23 May 2013, 22:09

Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by plaques » 22 Sep 2017, 08:58

I think you are underestimating Mrs May. The offer of £18 Billion for two years will have the EU falling over backward to close the deal. On top of that we will be able to control all immigration, get free trade access without tariffs, enjoy all the benefits of security co-ordination, partake in science and technology development without contributing an extra penny. On top of that we shall negotiate trade deals with America, Canada, Australia and the rest of the World all to our advantage. Mrs May may be a bloody difficult woman but she is batting for Britain, as John Major would say. This success will be followed by a snap election which will sweep her back into power with a majority of hundreds.

PS, Just sent a copy of this post to the Daily Mail, Express and the Telegraph. And with a bit of luck it could finish up as one of Bodger's jokes.

User avatar
Stanley
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 39240
Joined: 23 Jan 2012, 12:01
Location: Barnoldswick. Nearer to Heaven than Gloria.

Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Stanley » 23 Sep 2017, 03:37

I love it! That's the line the right wing want us to swallow but unfortunately pigs don't fly. Problem is of course that May and her supporters really believe that!
The £18billion sounds reasonable compared to the sums that have been bandied about but what isn't made clear is that this is only one component of the cost. If you add in the treaty obligations etc, you get closer to £50billion. Barnier's reaction was exactly what could be expected, at this late stage in the negotiations they are still waiting for firm proposals on the money, N Ireland and Citizen's rights. Mood music and broad overviews don't cut it but May and her crew still think they can alter the process in their favour. No progress will be made until they accept the EU negotiating terms and get down to hard facts. Problem there of course is that Ireland is a basket case that we can't solve and we haven't a cat in hell's chance of being able to manage the customs problem, HMRC have already admitted that. Then there is the problem of the jurisdiction of the ECJ. Weasel words like saying our courts will 'take note' of ECJ opinions mean nothing and the EU knows it.
Corbyn had it about right when he said that the speech was more a reflection of the current opinions in the Tory Party than the realities of the situation. Note also that May still believes that 'no deal' is better than a 'bad deal' and it seems that her definition of 'bad deal' is still one where we don't get our own way.
Another thing, don't expect Barnier to react to Florence next week, he doesn't need to tell us what to do beyond what he has already said. The clock is ticking and we are digging a hole for ourselves, the EU can simply sit back and watch. Expect a storm of vitriol from the Right-Wing media when this happens.....
Stanley Challenger Graham
Stanley's View
scg1936 at talktalk.net

"Beware of certitude" (Jimmy Reid)
The floggings will continue until morale improves!

User avatar
Stanley
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 39240
Joined: 23 Jan 2012, 12:01
Location: Barnoldswick. Nearer to Heaven than Gloria.

Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Stanley » 24 Sep 2017, 04:29

I see Trump has managed to fall out with football players. See THIS very comprehensive report of the exchanges and consequences. It may of course be that Trump is a very clever man who is using abrasive tactics to shock the nation into change but I doubt it. I think it is more likely that he has completely ignored the legitimate complaints of the black community against racism in general and police brutality in particular. That is the basis for these peaceful protests by footballers and I think Trump ignores this at his peril. Of course his buffer is that many of his supporters seem to be bigoted and racist.....
Domestic politics is on hold until we see what the reaction to the Florence speech is at the renewed negotiations starting Monday. Meanwhile, individual politicians chuck their two pennyworth into the media and do nothing to convince me that the Tories have a united position on Brexit strategy.
See THIS report of a flaming argument between Boris and Hammond over Brexit strategy. It reinforces what I said above about friction. There is a general feeling that leadership challenges are growing and one wonders how long the façade can be held together. The Labour attitude that they are in an ongoing campaign to take over the government seems to be more than a remote possibility.....
Stanley Challenger Graham
Stanley's View
scg1936 at talktalk.net

"Beware of certitude" (Jimmy Reid)
The floggings will continue until morale improves!

User avatar
Stanley
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 39240
Joined: 23 Jan 2012, 12:01
Location: Barnoldswick. Nearer to Heaven than Gloria.

Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Stanley » 25 Sep 2017, 04:08

Angela Merkel has been returned to power. She has a reduced vote and will have to work hard to build a workable coalition but I am glad we have at least one element of stability in an increasingly difficult political world!
Domestic politics.... Things could get interesting as pressure builds on the EU negotiations... We are short on clarity and stability at the moment on all fronts!
I see that the Right wing media are portraying the decision taken by Labour not to debate Brexit at Conference as 'stifling debate' and a bad thing. I see it as a sensible decision to focus on clear public issues that desperately need attention and evidence that Jeremy Corbyn has control of the party despite the lingering whines of the Blairite tendency.
Stanley Challenger Graham
Stanley's View
scg1936 at talktalk.net

"Beware of certitude" (Jimmy Reid)
The floggings will continue until morale improves!

User avatar
Tizer
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 7795
Joined: 23 Jan 2012, 19:46
Location: Somerset, UK

Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Tizer » 25 Sep 2017, 08:43

While talking about nationalising water companies on the Today programme at about 08.15 this morning John McDonnell said something that might come back to haunt him. He was asked if the shareholders would be fully compensated to the market price. His answer was `the government will set the market price'. That will play into the hands of the Tories. The only way that the government can set the market price is by taking control of the stock market!

User avatar
Stanley
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 39240
Joined: 23 Jan 2012, 12:01
Location: Barnoldswick. Nearer to Heaven than Gloria.

Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Stanley » 26 Sep 2017, 04:04

I don't think that is necessarily true Tiz. They can affect the price by controlling the climate a particular stock is traded in. If speculators are convinced that serious moves are being made to curb private profits taken out of a market like, say, PFI shares, they will tend to bale out and the stock market price falls making it cheaper to take them back in-house. The Stock Market affects prices in that manner on a daily basis.
I think the proposals on PFI and the utilities made at the Labour conference are sensible but then I would wouldn't I. I can still hear Nye Bevan recommending that we take control of 'The commanding heights of the economy'. Look at the amount of money bleeding out of the economy by manipulation of tax regimes by foreign based companies. Heathrow is a good example in the private sector. It is profitable but by clever use of high interest loans from abroad it dilutes the profit in the point where corporation tax is no problem. All perfectly legal but the price to the consumer goes up and the profit flows out of the UK economy. How many of our utilities are UK owned?
It looks as though there is an internal fight going on between Hammond and Boris. A fine time for dissent when we need to present a cohesive exit strategy to the EU in order to get negotiations going. The clock is ticking!
Later..... See THIS CNN report on the latest developments in the war of words between Trump and N. Korea..... This is pure brinkmanship and more like a playground spat than serious politics. Despite that it is also dangerous, one trigger happy N Korean pilot could unleash chaos. High time it was stopped.
Looking further afield at the independence referendum in Kurdistan I can't help going back to my long held opinion (which is still valid) that the natural consequence of the incursion into Iraq, the consequent chaos when the army was disbanded and the history of fumbling about while dissent increased inevitably points towards the failure of the artificial creation of Iraq from the three kingdoms of Mesopotamia in the 1920s and 30s. Kurdistan, Baghdad and Basra. Is this what we are seeing now? The problem is of course that Baghdad has no oil, it's in Basra and Kurdistan. Once more, fossil fuel is at the root of the problem in the Middle East.
Stanley Challenger Graham
Stanley's View
scg1936 at talktalk.net

"Beware of certitude" (Jimmy Reid)
The floggings will continue until morale improves!

User avatar
Tizer
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 7795
Joined: 23 Jan 2012, 19:46
Location: Somerset, UK

Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Tizer » 26 Sep 2017, 08:43

The North Korea situation is a real bag of nails. The detonation of a hydrogen bomb in the atmosphere over the Pacific would ultimately lead to hundreds of thousands of extra early cancer deaths around the world, just as the 1950s tests did. Kim Jong Un doesn't care about other people, even his own countrymen, so it wouldn't be surprising if he goes ahead, especially if taunted by Trump. Unfortunately the leaders of Russia and China also don't have much compassion for others so they won't be too bothered by the Pacific hydrogen bomb threat either. Stalemate. One of Macmillan's `events' will probably be the only way it gets resolved.

User avatar
Stanley
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 39240
Joined: 23 Jan 2012, 12:01
Location: Barnoldswick. Nearer to Heaven than Gloria.

Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Stanley » 27 Sep 2017, 03:54

The present round of EU negotiations ends tomorrow. From the signs so far UK is going to press on with its strategy of trying to alter the timetable and will fudge on hard proposals on Citizen's Rights, Ireland and the opening offer in the divorce bill because these matters haven't been resolved internally in the Party. If that is the case the EU will say so and you can expect a storm of abuse blaming them for 'their intransigence' which will muddy the waters even more.
Of course I could be wrong but if I was a betting man........
What a contrast between the parties when you look at the Labour conference. The anti Corbyn tendency must admit that however much they hate him he has worked a miracle. The Party is presenting a united front as being ready for government. I like many of their policies, particularly the clear sight of what PFI costs the nation. I am a lot happier than I was 12 months ago. Question is now, will the inevitable backlash from the Tory press damage the party or will the new tone spur the Tories on to get real about the EU. I hear this morning that one Tory Grandee has been spluttering about the UK being treated as a supplicant. Tough! That's the reality and it was your actions that led us there!
Stanley Challenger Graham
Stanley's View
scg1936 at talktalk.net

"Beware of certitude" (Jimmy Reid)
The floggings will continue until morale improves!

Bruff
Avid User
Posts: 822
Joined: 24 Jan 2012, 08:42
Location: Hoylake, Wirral - for the moment

Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Bruff » 27 Sep 2017, 08:13

So the PM pitched up in Florence to ‘restart’ the Brexit negotiations. I’m not sure what to make of the content of the speech but for some reason the image of one my cats depositing a freshly killed bird at my feet in recompense for sh****ng on the rug springs to mind. Let’s be clear: this was about Tory party management as it always is with the Tories – country will never come before the Tory Party for a Tory. It is part of their nature along with as someone else noted, inconsiderate parking and talking loudly in restaurants.

Obviously, the PM’s Florence Speech has been greeted with emollient noises from the EU but who once again noted that progress needs to be made on the issue of EU citizen’s rights, settlement of accounts, and the Irish border. This should be clear to everyone, as these are the only issues the Commission, as the EU’s negotiator, has competence to negotiate via the negotiating Directives agreed by the 27 unanimously. The UK may wish it otherwise, but it’s futile. This is how the EU works and you’d have thought we’d all know that (as it’s about the same as how we work as we don’t just aimlessly amble, unfocussed, from one whimsy to another. We have policies).

Mr Bernard Jenkin is just the latest serial know-nothing who moans on TV that we can’t discuss accounts or Ireland ‘till the future relationship is known (among so many, many other moans). But we do know the relationship Sir. If you are not members of the EU, then you can apply to be a member of EFTA. If you do not wish for EFTA, then you are a third country like Laos or El Salvador. As our red lines are no free movement and no ECJ oversight, then we will be a third country as free movement and ECJ are EFTA requirements. So the Irish border solution needs to be reflective of our third-country status and the EU have quite reasonably asked that the UK come up with solutions in that context. It would I think we all agree, be odd for the EU to take the lead on this issue. The Irish border is very tricky (as we noted on here well before the referendum!) but it’s very clear no one, or very few people, gave it a moment’s thought before they voted. Appalling.

I think we can forget about a bespoke deal. Switzerland have one of those and it’s a pain in the neck for the EU (and to be fair the Swiss). The EU I think will not wish for more of these (Barnier has said as much as well, what’s in it for the EU?) – you are a member of the EU, or EFTA, or you’re a third country and look for a trade deal in time. How dreadfully unreasonable……….[sarcasm intended].

Still……Tick Tock

Richard Broughton

User avatar
Stanley
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 39240
Joined: 23 Jan 2012, 12:01
Location: Barnoldswick. Nearer to Heaven than Gloria.

Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Stanley » 28 Sep 2017, 04:07

As usual Richard, a realistic and informative post.
"country will never come before the Tory Party for a Tory" How true, and Corbyn said much the same thing in his speech yesterday. What they either don't realise or refuse to acknowledge is that the time when the ability to set the mood music for the negotiations was before Article 50 was triggered. Up to that point the UK was in the driving seat and if, instead of stupid posturing (I shall be a bloody difficult woman) we had openly said that we recognised the cost, and estimated it at between £30 and 50billion, would give full rights to EU citizens already legitimately established here in return for the same treatment of UK nationals in Europe and would consult with the parties in Ireland as to their suggestions for maintaining an open border. Our aim to be political separation whilst maintaining all practical and mutually beneficial areas of cooperation with the EU. (Which after all was the only sensible attitude) How different would it have been..... Any fule knew that once Article 50 was triggered we lost all traction and would have to conform to the EU directives on the timetable. A lost opportunity founded in internal dispute (the 'Cat Fight') inside the Tory Party which was itself based on self-interest bringing us back neatly to your point, "country will never come before the Tory Party for a Tory".
Stepping back, one of the reasons why I have such a clear sight of the events immediately after the Great War, 'The war to end all wars' and 'A country fit for heroes', is that I remember what the national mood was in 1945. A feeling of immense relief that six years of terrible waste and existential threat was over and that now was the time to set a different course in global politics to ensure that such things could never happen again. Forget who won the election, the fact was that some of the most enlightened policies this country has ever seen were enacted and changed the nation's life completely. This has all been forgotten and to paraphrase Lord Grey, it is possible to say that the lights are going out all over the world and we shan't see them lit again in our lifetime. This is not an exaggeration, in terms of human misery and conflict we are in the middle of another version of world war. The Bombardier affair is a straw in the wind on another front, economic warfare and trade barriers are in fashion again. I shall stop this line of thinking, it is too depressing.
The only way I can see for anything good to happen at the moment vis a vis the EU problem is a sudden outbreak of reality and cooperation on our behalf by the negotiators and I don't think this is going to happen. Today we shall get another round of 'closing statements' by Davies and Barnier and I think I know what is going to happen. Barnier will once again point out that firm proposals haven't been made on the three principles and the right wing in this country will erupt in indignation at EU 'intransigence'.
Once again Richard, you have hit the nail on the head.... "Still……Tick Tock".
Stanley Challenger Graham
Stanley's View
scg1936 at talktalk.net

"Beware of certitude" (Jimmy Reid)
The floggings will continue until morale improves!

User avatar
Stanley
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 39240
Joined: 23 Jan 2012, 12:01
Location: Barnoldswick. Nearer to Heaven than Gloria.

Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Stanley » 29 Sep 2017, 06:51

Mr Barnier was very restrained.... he made a passing reference to the improved tone of the Florence speech but followed up by reiterating the need for concrete proposals on the three heads of discussion set by the EU. Mr Davies of course said that everything was going splendidly and progress was being made. Like everyone else I suspect, the thing that will impress me is not anodyne statements but news that agreement had been reached and what those agreements are. I am not holding my breath....
Mrs May strikes an interesting note in the opening shots before the Tory Party Conference this weekend. She attacks Labour for their criticisms of capitalism, over-simplifying her interpretation to portray Labour as a bunch of Marxist wreckers. She should read Das Kapital.... Marx was not against capitalism but the way it was managed and the same criticisms apply today when considering the evils of over-reliance on 'the market'. To rub salt in the wound she reiterates her support for the policy of austerity. In other words the poor will continue to pay for the disaster manufactured by 'the market' in 2008.
There are two demonstrations in Manchester this weekend, one against Brexit and the other (expected to be much larger) against austerity. The police report that the cost of policing these will be £2million and the Home Office (the taxpayer) will foot the bill. Behind their security barriers I suspect that the delegates will not be in as euphoric a mood as Labour was.... We are told for instance that there is a large cross-party pressure group urging May to implement her manifesto promise to cap energy bills....
Stanley Challenger Graham
Stanley's View
scg1936 at talktalk.net

"Beware of certitude" (Jimmy Reid)
The floggings will continue until morale improves!

Post Reply

Return to “Current Affairs & Comment”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Travis