POLITICS CORNER

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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by plaques » 16 May 2019, 11:48

Tizer wrote:
16 May 2019, 09:20
...the EU election results will probably give Farage something more to crow about.
But Mrs May promised me faithfully that the EU elections wouldn't take place a bit like leaving on the 29th March. Quote "The first mistake is an accident, the second its on purpose, the third its an habit" and here we go with another try on the 3rd June. It may be just a coincidence that the probation service is being renationalised. Quote, "The government is renationalising the supervision of criminals after a botched part-privatisation programme was found to be putting the public at risk". I hope Mrs May is taking note there is no way out next time.

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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Stanley » 17 May 2019, 02:42

Tiz, I fear that Farage is going to do well in the EU elections and on present evidence the MEPs will get to sit in the EU assembly and have valid votes....
P, I doubt if the 'bloody difficult woman' gives much thought at all to anything other than her fixed ideas. The odds are against the June 3 vote getting a pass mark and under the agreement with the 1922 committee reached this week she will then 'consult' with them. Note that she hasn't said she will go. 'Informed sources' saying it's unthinkable she won't resign are whistling in the wind. Again, current evidence is that she will do nothing of the sort but come up with yet another cunning plan.
I see Bojo has immediately said he will stand for the Leadership, now there's a prospect for us all, Boris as PM?
I watched both episodes of the BBC 4 Storyville 'Brexit Story' again last night and if you haven't seen them they are worth reviewing. The thing that struck me most is the way T May has aged over the last three years....
I was reminded again that right from the start, Brexit has only been seen as a ploy to heal the Tory Party divisions or an economic and political matter. The only person I have heard speaking passionately about the values and principles that lie behind the European movement is the Belgian PM and God knows, they have more reason than most to remember the past. We see globally how lack of international cooperation and understanding foments disputes, conflict and trade wars. Have we learned nothing?
I have been banging on for years about the fact that 19th century politics is broken, we need a new model and we need it now!
Later, the Whip's Office says that there is no hope for the 'talks' and so they are officially dead. Another six weeks wasted.
Nicola Sturgeon has just said that on a personal level and as a leader herself she has some sympathy with T May but she added that in terms of Brexit a lot of her troubles were of her own making and not imposed on her by anyone else. You can say that again!
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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Tizer » 17 May 2019, 10:23

The fact that Boris Johnson is even mentioned as a possible candidate for PM illustrates just how dire the political situation now is in the UK. It will be our Trump moment if he ever gets to be PM.

Nicola Sturgeon expects to have another Scottish independence referendum and to win it. If that happens and Scotland wants to remain in the EU, but the UK has left it, will we end up with yet another border problem? Of course, I'm sure that our wise politicians thought all this through before signing Article 50....didn't they? :smile:

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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by chinatyke » 17 May 2019, 11:25

Tizer wrote:
17 May 2019, 10:23


Nicola Sturgeon expects to have another Scottish independence referendum and to win it. If that happens and Scotland wants to remain in the EU, but the UK has left it, will we end up with yet another border problem? Of course, I'm sure that our wise politicians thought all this through before signing Article 50....didn't they? :smile:
WHEN the UK leaves the EU Scotland will also not be part of the EU. Perhaps they'll also leave the UK and choose to join the EU in their own right. Then England will have got rid of two money pits.

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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Stanley » 17 May 2019, 12:09

Then England will have got rid of two money pits
Tell that to the deprived areas getting funding from the EU, the old folk in Scotland who get better social care or the students who do not pay tuition fees.....
It's official, as predicted the break down in inter party talks is down to Labour. Or so T May says.....
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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Whyperion » 17 May 2019, 21:07

Noted BBC TV News, think it was Cabinet Office Secretary, Some MPs will have to accept their 2nd or 3rd Choice to get Brexit Through and accept some kind of Compromise. Should Brexit be a compromise, or a clear planned means of becoming an economically independent island ?

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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Tripps » 18 May 2019, 10:23

From - The Conservative Woman website.

Listen carefully. Mrs May has not tendered her resignation. She has agreed to discuss a timetable for a leadership election with Sir Graham in two weeks. No commitment to its start date or end date. From Number Ten all that has been acknowledged is that if the Withdrawal Agreement Bill is defeated, the pressure for Mrs May to go immediately will inevitably ratchet up. A source said: ‘She would have to say, “This is how I envisage the timetable for a leadership election happening and there would have to be some sort of agreement about that”.

The bottom line yet again is that Mrs May has resisted calls for her to name the date of her departure from Number Ten. Worse, the wording of her agreement with Sir Graham could also be taken to imply that if her wretched WA Bill is somehow passed, she would interpret it as a vindication and stay.

Don’t rule it out.
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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Stanley » 19 May 2019, 03:11

I'm impressed by the source David! Whoever wrote that is quite right, there is no leaving date let alone a clear sign of intention to leave beyond her promise that she would not fight the next election. (And even that has to be taken with a large pinch of salt!)
The plain fact is that there is no agreement inside the Tory Party or Labour on a clear strategy. This should have been hammered out before the resignation letter was sent to the EU but wasn't because May was blind to anything other than her obsession with internal party considerations. We advocated an All Party Approach at the time but what the hell do we know..... As it stands, even now the EU doesn't know exactly what the UK wants. It is madness!
The sensible thing to do would be to go to the EU and confess that this is the case and ask for a long moratorium on exit to allow time for a proper position to be agreed internally and then in Brussels. I suspect that if this was honestly done the consensus would be that we are better off in than out.
As it is, I fear the outcome that Jaques Barnier predicted, falling into No Deal by accident. That would be the final indictment of our our 19th century political system. Problem is the consequences for the majority of UK citizens would be dire.
One really serious nagging thought keeps nibbling away at me. Suppose Labour secretly favours No Deal and a return to power in the backlash. This would give them the political freedom to pursue the hard left policies that have been openly advocated like nationalisation and punitive taxation of the wealthy. It makes a perverted sort of sense.....
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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by plaques » 19 May 2019, 08:02

Stanley wrote:
19 May 2019, 03:11
This would give them the political freedom to pursue the hard left policies that have been openly advocated like nationalisation and punitive taxation of the wealthy.
God forbid,You're beginning to sound like a Tory. I think there are obvious examples where privatisation has failed and that re-nationlising them is the correct thing to do. If we leave the EU we may find we are open to ransom by some of the foreign owned utilities and what then? Inequality will continue as per Thomas Piketty until the 1% are reigned in. Just re-reading Ragged Trousered philanthropist, By Robert Tressell . 120 years of no change, Makes you think doesn't it.

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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Tizer » 19 May 2019, 09:27

I don't think Stanley's criticising Corbyn's policies so much as expressing a widely held concern that Labour might sacrifice the nation to Brexit in order to get in power itself.

BBC web news: `Writing in the [Sunday Times], Lord Heseltine reveals he will back the Liberal Democrats on Thursday - the first time he will have cast his vote for a party other than the Conservatives. The Tory peer, who wants a second referendum, accuses the Conservatives of being "infected by a virus" - and says they risk descending "deeper into darkness" over Brexit.'

Also BBC, reflecting upon Mrs May's latest offering: `A Matt cartoon in the Sunday Telegraph appears sceptical about how much will change. It shows a banner being unveiled outside Parliament, with the slogan: "PM's Brexit deal - back despite popular demand!"' :smile:

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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Stanley » 20 May 2019, 03:18

P knows that Tiz, I would welcome taking the Commanding Heights of the Economy back under public control. God knows Privatisation and Chicago School Economics has had a fair crack of the whip and failed completely. See my piece on British Steel.....
May's latest 'new improved' scam sounds like an advert for washing powder...
Then we have Rory Stewart assuring us that Labour and the Tories are only half an inch apart (later it was a quarter of an inch). Who does he think he is kidding? I really believe that they have lost all sense of reality. Industry, the infrastructure, both physical and social, and society itself are crumbling around their ears but the 'Carry On' like good loyal soldiers. Question is, loyal to whom? (For he had been to night school...) The biggest driving force in the Tories at present is self-preservation. That is why at the moment it is an unwanted election that looms largest in their minds. They know that the result of the EU vote is going to be a disaster for them and that is the next milestone. I don't see how this log jam will end but I am certain it will be in tears for all of us.
The bottom line is that this is the worst governance I have ever seen and proof, if it were needed, that we need a complete overhaul of our 19th century political system.
Crazy as it seems, the most likely outcome on present evidence is that Farage, a one trick pony with no policies, is going to be the winner when the dust settles! There are echoes of Weimar Germany in all this.....
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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Tizer » 20 May 2019, 09:09

Stanley wrote:
20 May 2019, 03:18
Industry, the infrastructure, both physical and social, and society itself are crumbling around their ears but they 'Carry On' like good loyal soldiers.
Last night we watched the final episode of Dan Snow's `Empire of the Seas' about the history of the Royal Navy. He described the sinking of HMS Victoria in 1893 when Vice Admiral Sir George Tryon told the fleet to carry out a very difficult manoeuvre. Rear Admiral Markham in HMS Camperdown followed the instruction knowing that he would collide with Victoria. Tryon went down with Victoria and the Camperdown was badly damaged. The folly of blind obedience to orders and very different to the way Nelson ran the Navy.

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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Whyperion » 20 May 2019, 12:15

From BBC News
MPs who want to deliver the referendum result should vote for the government's Brexit bill and worry about the detail afterwards, a senior minister has said

Health Secretary Matt Hancock said MPs should back it "no matter the details" they want in a future relationship.

But ex-Brexit Secretary David Davis says if the bill passes, the PM's successor will "have their hands tied".

So, I muse, should ministers, if not MPs , have some kind of sanity check before they are given the keys to office, also should ministers be banned from talking outside the remit of their portfolio ?

I'll muse about left-wing nationalisation and why leaving the EU opens a percieved closed door to its implementation till later as I have work to do.

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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Stanley » 21 May 2019, 02:22

I've been thinking about Thursday. I was considering voting for the Liberal candidate on the grounds that they are definitely anti-Brexit but then I realised I was falling into the trap of losing sight of what the real purpose of the poll was. I shall, in the absence of any real knowledge of what the quality of the candidate is, vote for the Labour candidate on the grounds he or she isn't a Tory. Keep it simple Stanley!
Has anyone kept count of the number of candidates who have declared for the Tory leadership? Or the number of different 'groupings' that are being formed? (Or for that matter the number of parties!) I think we are looking at a disorganised rabble. Roll on next Monday when the results come in, could be interesting as there is a distinct chance the number of parties available will split the vote. The only thing that looks clear to me is that Farage will Hoover up a lot of Tory votes.
I forgot to mention the Matt Hancock interview on Today yesterday in which apart from being outspoken about the prospects for 'new and improved bold'.... he attacked Jeremy Corbyn for rejecting Mark IV before he knew what was in it. This was dirty pool, what JC actually said was that he hadn't heard of anything new and his position was that "at the moment" he would be against it. A perfectly reasonable view and a long way from the outright rejection that Hancock claimed. His attempt to poison the well didn't get past me but others will of course take what he said as gospel....
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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by plaques » 21 May 2019, 07:40

Voting for a particular candidate/party in the EU elections is more than confusing. Most of the rightwing papers have gone Farage. Trump is 'get out at all costs' May's 'bold plan' will make it all redundant. What we are short of is some some really sound advise. Spice Girls come to mind, Beckham would be OK, just been banned for talking on his mobile. Perhaps a Manchester City footballer or two, even a punch drunk American boxer, anybody but the runners and rider politicians that are after Mrs May's job.

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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by PanBiker » 21 May 2019, 08:11

Regarding Thursdays ballot, you will be voting for a party rather than individual candidates. Those for each party are ranked in order of selection and are elected in turn if the votes stack in the parties favour in each round of counting. The only exception is if any of the individual independent candidates that may be standing stack more votes than any of the party groups. The difference there is on how they transfer votes to the next round.
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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Whyperion » 21 May 2019, 08:51

British Steel - Runs now two plants Scunthorpe and Middlesborough. I see they want (Additional ?) Govt Loan/ Funding,blaming brexit. How come - and funds have already been granted for dirty air issues - its all right for a tory govt to subsidise private industry, yet bad for labour to propose nationalisation of an industry ? Either way Govt should have all money value invested secured on the value of the land, so at least that can be used for a public purpose in the future if need be. (Speaking EU that in itself grew out of the Iron and Steel Trades Confederation - legal govt backed cartel)

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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Stanley » 22 May 2019, 03:02

Thanks for that Ian, no doubt I'll make sense of it on the day. Do we still need ID for this vote? Or was it only a pilot for the Council elections.
It struck me last night that the news didn't exactly favour T May. British steel posed to go into administration, Jamie Oliver's empire and other main street cafés crash and burn.... MPs and parties right left and centre saying they won't vote for new and improved Bold. I even heard one saying that he suspected that Mark IV will be withdrawn.
They still keep talking about a people's choice vote... I can't understand it because there just isn't time now for anything superfluous. Leadership election and summer recess? All that time wasted.
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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by plaques » 22 May 2019, 07:59

I tried to watch the You Tube on Mrs May's speech, a masterclass on spin. "I stands it until I stands it no longer". Still blaming MPs for rejecting it last time. Tried to reason with Labour but a pointless exercise, plenty of confusing legal agreements, and compromising on things she was always going to adopt anyhow. No wonder everyone is up in arms. Last attempt at Bull...t baffles Brains.

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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by PanBiker » 22 May 2019, 08:11

Stanley wrote:
22 May 2019, 03:02
Do we still need ID for this vote? Or was it only a pilot for the Council elections.
No, you won't need ID and yes and the trial was only for the council elections. Back to "normal" just take yourself and your card (if you want, not a requirement), tell them who you are and claim your ballot. You will have one vote.
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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Stanley » 22 May 2019, 08:12

I've just written a piece about Gove but it hit yours and I lost!
I have listened to him this morning making what on the face of it was an emollient and calm statement in support of his Leader. It was actually the knife slipping in her back. The key thing he said was that the Cabinet would be having a 'period of reflection'. This means shelving the debate and forcing T May out. What a nice man....
Just seen your reply Ian. Thanks....
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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Tizer » 22 May 2019, 08:52

Stanley, the European Parliament states: `The ballot paper lists the parties' names (and their candidates under the party name), and any independent candidates. Put a cross next to the party or independent candidate that you wish to vote for.' LINK As it says `..the party or independent candidate..' in the singular I take it that I have only one vote, and Panbiker confirms that is so. It would have helped if we'd all been given better guidance well in advance and it's no wonder that turnout is so low in such elections. Of the people who do vote in this election I wonder how many really know what they're doing. :smile:

Here's an example of how Trump's trade wars are going to backfire on the very people who support him...
`Shoe giants urge Trump to end trade war' LINK
`In a letter signed by 173 companies, including Nike and Adidas, they said the president's decision to hike import tariffs to 25% will disproportionately impact the working class. They also warn that higher levies threaten the future of some businesses....The footwear companies that signed the letter, including Clarks, Dr Martens and Converse, claim that while the average US tariff on footwear is 11.3%, in some cases it can reach as high as 67.5%. "Adding a 25% tax increase on top of these tariffs would mean some working American families could pay a nearly 100% duty on their shoes," the companies wrote. "This is unfathomable."...'

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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Tripps » 22 May 2019, 09:28

Tizer wrote:
22 May 2019, 08:52
The ballot paper lists the parties' names (and their candidates under the party name), and any independent candidates
I must say that came as news to me. The only graphics I've seen just showed the party or independent candidate. I agree there has been very little information as to the actual voting process - it's almost as if the government are not bothered, about us voting. The morning phone in on LBC revealed many constituencies where the ballot cards had not arrived yet. nearly enough to start a conspiracy theory I'd say. :smile:

I did see a rather clever headline in the Guardian 'Do's and D'hondts of Euro voting'.

I didn't realise that the candidates' list was given on the ballot. I wonder what goes on behind the scenes to get to the top of the list, and what if you like the party, but can't stand their number one on the list, though that's probably the same on 'first past the post'.
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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by PanBiker » 22 May 2019, 11:09

Tripps wrote:
22 May 2019, 09:28
I didn't realise that the candidates' list was given on the ballot. I wonder what goes on behind the scenes to get to the top of the list, and what if you like the party, but can't stand their number one on the list, though that's probably the same on 'first past the post'.
News to me also I thought it was just the party and any independents. Ranking of candidates is down to each parties selection process. If the lists follow protocol they should be in alphabetical order, having said that, the notice of nominations received available on the council web site does not list them as such.
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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by plaques » 22 May 2019, 11:51

Tizer wrote:
22 May 2019, 08:52
...It would have helped if we'd all been given better guidance well in advance and it's no wonder that turnout is so low in such elections.
Bearing in mind that most of the posts in this section are by people who have possibly more than a passing interest in politics Tizer is quite right in thinking that all this business could be a complete turn off. No doubt there are numerous studies by the various political think tanks (policy institutes) on what factors encourages/discourages voting by the general public. Making voting compulsory would be fine if it went in parallel with political education. Relying on the rightwing press and billionaires to inform us what is the correct way to vote, ie: brainwashing, would only give the same results we are getting now through ignorance.

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