POLITICS CORNER

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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Big Kev » 10 Sep 2019, 10:58

PanBiker wrote:
10 Sep 2019, 09:23
This is absolute gold, our MP Andrew Stephenson taken to task by John Bercow and told to leave the chamber during the prorogation of parliament.

"This is not a standard or normal prorogation"
Love it :laugh5:
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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by plaques » 10 Sep 2019, 18:14

Since he crossed swords the Speaker Mr Burcow our Mr Andrew Stephenson MP is now know by the sobriquet 'the flying flamingo'. This is due to his embarrassing exit from the commons chamber to become a You Tube celebrity. One would have expected a MP with his experience to be smart enough to keep his mouth shut. I remember my own experience in the second year at senior school making a Bolshie comment in a history class. I soon learnt this was a mistake especially when the tutor had literally the whip hand. Which raises the question can Conservatives be Bolshie? Of course he may have been ignorant of the consequence for which I feel sorry for him or he may genuinely believed in what he was saying in which case I'm doubly sorry for him but there is the slim chance, which could be plausible, that he may have been trying to demonstrate his hard line credentials to impress Boris Johnson in which case he is beyond the pale and there is no hope for him.
But on the other hand to quote Oscar Wilde. The only thing worse than being talked about is not being talked about.

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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Stanley » 11 Sep 2019, 02:34

I didn't realise that the Flamingo was Stephenson. I agree, pure gold and yes he was trying to please Boris. He has done nothing other than follow the Party Line slavishly since his election. About as much use as a chocolate teapot! Bercow is God!
Expect five weeks electioneering and wriggling now from the Tories. One thing is certain, Johnson will not volunteer for any searching public interviews, he is still a loose cannon with a big mouth and anything can happen.
Was Richard ever more right than he was when he alerted us years ago to the Irish Problem?
We are not out of the wood yet. By sheer chicanery Johnson could yet survive, depends on what the proportion of morons there are to sensible people in the UK. This in itself will trigger a searching examination of our present system.
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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Tripps » 11 Sep 2019, 17:06

I've often said - and I think I've mentioned it on here, that my definition of a politician is someone who does something for one reason whist pretending it is for another.

It looks as if the Court of Sessions in Edinburgh today agrees with me. I rest my case. :smile:


Another maxim which seems to have been proved from the Speaker downwards, in the last few days - "politics is show business for ugly people".
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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Stanley » 12 Sep 2019, 02:47

I'll agree with both of those David. I look forward to the Scottish judgement being tested in the Supreme Court.
Just out of curiosity, has Johnson had any success at all or done anything concrete and useful? Have I missed something?
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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by plaques » 12 Sep 2019, 07:43

Politics corner temporally renamed Speculation corner. Tom Watson doing his rounds again pushing a second referendum prior to an election. If anything was designed to confuse this is it. A quick re-cap, only the Prime Minister can call for a second referendum. Boris Johnson has said several times he isn't going to have one. A private members bill may get through if Boris allows time, which he won't. This would be down to the Speaker, good old John Bercow to step it. Even then there wouldn't be enough time before 31 Oct. to get a referendum in. We would then be relying on the EU to grant an extension on a speculative change in public opinion and for Johnson to change his mind by stopping in the EU. Corbyn himself cannot call a referendum unless he becomes Prime Minister, ie: wins a general election. If, a big if, he wins, a referendum is on his promise list. So why is Watson sticking his oar in? To muddy the waters at Corbyn's expense or to position himself as a potential Labour leader by jumping on the populist band wagon?
I'll stop at this point I feel a headache coming on.

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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Stanley » 12 Sep 2019, 08:47

I know the feeling P and shall be going to bed shortly for a lie down.
I've been listening to Tory politicians telling us not to worry about Yellowhammer because it is only theoretical worst case short term and opposition saying it is the end of the world. The truth of course, as always, will lie in the middle somewhere and none of us, including the politicians, has the faintest idea.
The one thing I will agree with that the Labour man said this morning is that the main fact is that we shouldn't even have to be doing this planning.
Did you hear the Russian Oligarch Lebedev said this morning on Today? He was asked what he thought about Brexit and said that he had never seen a nation shoot itself in both feet at once.
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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by PanBiker » 12 Sep 2019, 09:09

Is it not the case that they have only released 5 pages of Yellowhammer, where are the rest? Something to hide no doubt. I don't think that even the Tories could get away with spending all that brass on only 5 pages! :extrawink:
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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Tizer » 12 Sep 2019, 10:04

plaques wrote:
12 Sep 2019, 07:43
...Corbyn himself cannot call a referendum unless he becomes Prime Minister, ie: wins a general election. If, a big if, he wins, a referendum is on his promise list. So why is Watson sticking his oar in? To muddy the waters at Corbyn's expense or to position himself as a potential Labour leader by jumping on the populist band wagon?
Reading articles on this it appears Watson is taking this stance because he's concerned Labour will fail to win a general election while Brexit is still such a big topic. He sees Johnson as able to drown out important issues such as the NHS with his `do or die' Brexit message and that the only way out of Brexit deadlock is to have a 2nd referendum.

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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by plaques » 12 Sep 2019, 12:05

Tizer wrote:
12 Sep 2019, 10:04
Reading articles on this it appears Watson is taking this stance because he's concerned Labour will fail to win a general election
Fine, so either (1) Boris dissolves parliament and causes a general election, or (2) a vote of no confidence throws him out resulting in the same action. #1 will require Boris to pass a second referendum bill before he goes which IF he wins the election he may have committed himself to stay in the EU. #2 will require the interim caretaker government to go through the same motions. A remain result would help the Lib Dems and hurt Labour's chances. A leave result would help Boris to say he was right after all. In effect Watson is proposing an action that would help everybody else other than the party he is supposed to represent.
Snake in the grass is what I think.

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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by PanBiker » 12 Sep 2019, 13:29

Indeed, Len McCluskey hit the nail on the head yesterday at the TUC Conference. “It’s sad. Now and again, Tom pops up from where he has been hiding… normally to try and undermine his leader,” he said. No love lost there. :extrawink:
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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Stanley » 13 Sep 2019, 02:36

I saw Len.....
I also heard someone else, I don't know who it was, who said that an election should not be based on one question, that makes it just another referendum. It should concentrate on the whole range of problems facing us of which Brexit is but one, and not the most important!
The dancing on the head of a pin will continue. I'm not bored with it, just exasperated that there has to be this internecine warfare.
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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Whyperion » 13 Sep 2019, 20:57

Returning to Yellowhammer, in theory, depending on other trade deals, some food prices could fall, indeed the EU could even dump some of its Food surpluses on us selling below cost like they do to some of Africa. Riots - unlikely. Fishing- with or without any deal English Fishing would be limited to international waters or just around the coast ( actually seems that TM's deal gave some kind of reciprocal rights to EU to Fish English waters for English to fish some EU ones ( Baltic/ Around Iberia and Ireland ).


Meanwhile Camerons memories are being issued, I wonder if the young age (43) meant he had not the depth of guile or experience to realise what he was doing ( did he not try talking to John Major ), in a sense he was right, with BBC giving UKIP big shout-out and UKIP nibbling tory voters initially and long-standing euro-sceptics remaining in the tories maybe some kind of representative referendum would come, sooner or later. Personally I still blame the way Blair expanded the EU and allowed (cheap) EE labour into UK when other EU nations did not was the root of the discontent within Britain was the root of the grass-roots change in wanting the EU not to interfere in British Matters. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49690618

Problem that I can see is that no party has a clear vision for a post-brexit Britain- Johnson appears to be splashing cash and charming the nothern poorhouse again - but making things like transport a regional issue which once again ends up as some kind of divde and rule - its not nationally important therefore has to be funded from a local level.

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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Whyperion » 13 Sep 2019, 23:40

I had a short think about the current parliament, in short the Supreme Court will be asked to rule on the constitutional conumdrum of whom can call the big shots in the UK democracy, Parliament, or 'The Government'. So far as I can make out having a 'Government' in the main confirs the right to twist the monarchs arm to use those powers that are notionally in the control of the monarch, with the judges to work out hpw much of that arm twisting is legal- it has to be done for correct reasons- otherwise Parliament remains supreme ?
Now , should the ceasation of the session be over-ruled and parliament re-sits, I wonder if the opposition might table a no-confidence motion, which in theroy the tories should lose, which means some kind of coalition of parties to form some kind of govt, (note an election does not have to follow), I wonder who could be a suitable parliamentary leader, my favourite would be the Green Party member, with a cabinet of SNP, Change/Indies, PC, some kind of NI rep, and a few LDs and Labs. It might just work and presumably could junk brexit- or kick it into the long grass (I would suggest something like a Royal Commission to actually be charged to work out the practically of the leaving of the EU ( maybe that should have been done by Cameron but he, and I at the time, did not think of it ). Then basically take Javid's spending plans with a few taxation tweaks,

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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Stanley » 14 Sep 2019, 06:16

Some light entertainment this morning in the shape of Cameron's interview with the Times to publicise his memoirs. I haven't seen enough to judge but here's a LINK. This seems to be at first glance a good summary and like all ex-PMs he seems to be talking sense. Johnson et al will hate this and I think we can expect a froth of responses.
On another matter, don't you hate the sort of reply that was given to the question of why the results of the enquiry on Social Services have not been published. The response... the usual "We are spending £x on this". Worse than lying in my opinion, the question is simply ignored despite the fact people are suffering and the situation is worsening.
John Bercow has poked a stick into the hornet's nest again. Attacked by the rabid Tories of course but if you examine the role of Speaker he is doing nothing but his job, and doing it well!
I note that Johnson is still saying that he will get a deal when he goes to Brussels on October 17th despite having been told that this can't happen, the individual members must debate and decide. Given that he knows this why isn't he sending the 'deal' to Brussels now so it can be debated before October 17th. Could it be that there is no 'deal' to send?
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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Stanley » 15 Sep 2019, 03:44

The LibDems score another Tory.
Cameron has stolen the news agenda.... I've ordered a copy out of interest but also because it will be a good first edition hardback for the kids to have on the shelf when I die! (List £25, actual price £14.99. It's a mystery....)
See THIS for a BBC report on the latest revelations. I think his observations sound credible and the one that particularly gets my attention is about Priti Patel. That woman worries me.....
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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Stanley » 16 Sep 2019, 03:29

There is no politics only 'news'.
I suspect the LibDems could be making a big mistake by labelling themselves as a Remain party in the next election. That will be after October 31st and so their message may be totally out of date.
The Hulk(!) continues to spout pious hopes about a deal but no signs of it. He's going to reinforce his position by giving the EU the hard word in Luxembourg today. I don't know what good he thinks that will do unless he is still working on the principle that the EU will cave in at the last minute under his assault. They won't!
We still have all this talk about 'democracy'. I may be old fashioned but I think we have proved that the UK brand of democracy is useless over the last 3+ years, largely because there has been no cross party debate, it's been treated as an internal Tory matter. Time for some executive action based on the facts. That's right, I still think we should admit that the whole idea of Brexit and particularly its implementation is wrong and rescind our request to leave.
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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by plaques » 16 Sep 2019, 12:23

A comment by the Liberal Party, " Labour is no longer a Liberal Party" apart from the obvious mangled logic, it set me thinking, always dangerous in today's confused politics, What do our political party's stand for and what positions are they pushing.
1 Brexit party (leave Europe and cancel inheritance tax) But if the Conservatives leave the EU then there's not much point in voting Brexit.
2. Ukip . more right leaning Brexit. Again if (1) above not much future if we leave.
3. Lib Dems middle road party. wanting to stay in the EU. Trying to move away from both Labour and Conservatives but would have to join up in a coalition with one of them to get into Government. The question is which one would it be since they don't like either Johnson or Corbyn.
Labour. Corbyn labeled as indecisive in a catch twenty two position. If he goes 'leave' he knows it is wrong, if he goes 'remain' he will be ignoring those who already feel ignored.
Conservative. Perhaps the most fractured party. 'Leave' is where the money is for the already rich, unless he can pull off a super deal 'remain' will see him out on his ear.
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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Stanley » 17 Sep 2019, 02:49

I think you've just about summed the position up P. And after the reaction to the Hulk by the Luxembourg PM when the Hulk didn't do the news conference because everyone was shouting at him we can have no doubts he has done no good at the meeting.
Did you see him stonewalling Laura Kuenssberg?
Did anyone note the curious turn of phrase used by Lord Sumption when he was talking about the Supreme Court case against the government. He said that Johnson, by proroguing the House, had taken 'A hammer and sickle' to the Constitution.
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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Sue » 17 Sep 2019, 06:41

I read this forum occasionally, as you generally make sense, although I don’t always agree with the party analyses. Today I wanted to find a glimmer of hope in your words but I read the same as I think. Its a big MESS. Its obvious that our leader had and has no new ideas. I liked the comment from the Luxembourg PM , i can’t remember the exact words but the implication was that politics had been played here for personal gain rather than the benefit of the country. I hope the EU realise its the politicians playing games and not the people!

Was it my imagination but did Boris look a bit pink and flustered in his TV interview yesterday? Has be bitten off more than he can chew?
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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Whyperion » 17 Sep 2019, 06:49

I dont think I will be going with the LibDems, they still bundle in some things I cannot agree with in their policies, If their is a GE soon I dont think there is a radical socialist option going in my bit of Stockport so I might waste a vote on the Greens.

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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Stanley » 17 Sep 2019, 06:57

Sue, if he isn't flustered he is numb from the neck up. I've just been listening to a very sensible French lady politician and the gist of what she said was that the EU are puzzled about all this 'hard work' that is being done as they have seen nothing and know of no substantive talks. Further she said that nothing has been received by them and the feeling is growing that, as Johnson keeps repeating what they know is not true, that talks are ongoing, he is lying and has already committed himself to No Deal but is not telling anyone.
I found myself wishing we had politicians like her, she was quite obviously giving the position as she sees it and despite Jon Humphrys trying to shake her, she told him off and said they were both observers and had to go on what they knew, not what they were told by someone who has an agenda. Well done that woman.
She confirms what you have picked up Sue, its a MESS!
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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Sue » 17 Sep 2019, 10:16

Whyperion wrote:
17 Sep 2019, 06:49
I dont think I will be going with the LibDems, they still bundle in some things I cannot agree with in their policies, If their is a GE soon I dont think there is a radical socialist option going in my bit of Stockport so I might waste a vote on the Greens.
I have always been LibDem but like you there are some policies I am not sure about , but there are more I don’t like about the other two!
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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Tripps » 17 Sep 2019, 10:19

Stanley wrote:
17 Sep 2019, 06:57
I've just been listening to a very sensible French lady politician and the gist of what she said was that the EU are puzzled about all this 'hard work' that is being done as they have seen nothing and know of no substantive talks.
I heard her and was impressed. She said ' we seem to have a different idea as to the meaning of the word 'work'.

This whole thing is now mind bendingly complicated - partly because of the nature of the issues, and the ability of everyone to respond universally, and instantly, and partly to deliberately waste time. The current episode in Luxembourg illustrates this exactly. It fills all the front pages today, and will be largely forgotten by tomorrow.

PS Watch this - Supreme (sic) CourtOn the issue of complication - I rest my case M'lud. :smile:

PPS - I just remembered one commentator saying 'there are eleven judges sitting for this hearing - Lord Briggs is 'on the bench'. Well - that works for football, but not so well for judges who are in fact all 'on the bench'

I'm easily amused. . . . . :smile:
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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Stanley » 18 Sep 2019, 02:17

We will have to wait for a while I am afraid but whatever the result it will be historical. I would like to see them decide against the Government and put a marker down. At the moment these 11 are perhaps the most trustworthy decision making body in the UK. They should act fearlessly.....
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