POLITICS CORNER

[PanBiker]

Add also that at the time of the second ballot, the NEC at the time introduced an illegal item to the end of a fixed agenda that effectively disenfranchised thousands of fully paid up members from the ballot. Didn't make any difference but it was still wrong and should have resulted in some dismissals. I have always maintained that if Jeremy has one fault it is that he is not ruthless enough. He should have had a purge of the PLP of dissenters to the result of the second ballot.

Anti-Semitism, just about every previous leader of the party, including all the failed ones are also sticking their two pennorth in against the most popular leader of the party for decades. I would ask all those one question, if anti-Semitism is so endemic within the party why didn't they address the problem when they held the keys?

Anyone who is not prepared to accept party policy is quite at liberty to leave, be they sitting MP's, former leaders or the rank and file membership. Be that the case they should just get on with it and stop winging.

[Stanley]

"Anyone who is not prepared to accept party policy is quite at liberty to leave, be they sitting MP's, former leaders or the rank and file membership. Be that the case they should just get on with it and stop winging."
Ah, if only Ian.......
You make a very good point Tiz about the other parties.Flawed or not Labour addressed the matter in 2016.

[Tizer]

I was pleased to hear that the Labour Party had seen sense and adopted the IHRA statement and examples...but then they've gone and blown it all by insisting on adding a rider...and Corbyn wanted to add or change even more until those around him took charge. I've given up on Corbyn, he's not a leader and shouldn't be in the job. John McDonnell does more, why isn't he the leader?

[PanBiker]

The addition is not a rider just a statement, there is nothing in it that binds members to an extra rule. Can't please some sections of the Jewish community. Do as you are asked, ratify the full text of the definition and Corbyn is still wrong for making a statement. One Jewish person actually called him a Nazi. That just reinforces my view that this is nothing to do with anti-Semitism but just a bid to oust the leader.

We watched the first episode of "We are British Jews" last night. A diverse group of Jews brought together, which actually shows the range of opinions between the various contributors, very informative. The group visited various sub sects of faith within their own religion in the first episode. Ranging from out and out Zionism to other Jews who outwardly support the plight of the Palestinians. End of the program last night saw the group transported to Israel staying in a Kibbutz. Tonight's will show them visiting groups in Israel and then groups on the Palestinian side in Gaza, should be interesting to see how they all handle the reality. Some of the group have visited before others it is their first visit.

[Tripps]

I watched this and learned a lot. Jeremy Corbyn's latest anti Semitic 'faux pas' was to accuse a group of Jews not understanding British irony. That seemed mild to the point of triviality compared with what happens in Israel. Interesting group - I wonder how they were recruited.

[Stanley]

Someone somewhere in a room full of wonks and fuelled with coffee is laughing their head off. The get Corbyn campaign is going well and helping to divert attention from what Mervyn King was saying yesterday, that the Brexit management is a shambles. That's what the country should be focussing on.
If I hear anyone else stating that another opinion from Parliament or the voters on Brexit would be undemocratic I shall explode...... There is nothing more anti-democratic than a small group driving us to the cliff edge. Notice that they try to disarm criticism by saying 'the first few years will be hard'. That's the understatement of the century! Hard on whom? (For he had been to night school.....)

[Stanley]

See THIS BBC report on Trump's reaction to the NY Times editorial written by one of his staffers. He is furious and no wonder, things are stacking up against him but as he pointed out his ratings are soaring. Very, very worrying!
If you want to read the NY Times editorial, HERE it is. I'd say it was a well balanced essay.

[Tripps]

Ref - the Salisbury Novichok affair -

A lot more 'fact' and detail released yesterday by Mrs May, and though she usually doesn't impress me, she came across well, and I'm so glad it's she who is presenting this rather than Mr Corbyn, who would probably have failed to say the word Russia, condemned all poisoners, and said we need dialogue.

I must say the photos of the prime suspects were remarkably good - given that they are said to be from street video cameras. That will help the conspiracy theorists.

I heard a programme on Radio Four a few days ago on the assassination of the Bulgarian writer and broadcaster Georgi Markov in 1978. Many similarities, including an offer by the Bulgarians to 'help' with the enquiry. It also seems the famous umbrella which almost defined the event was most likely to have been a gas propelled pistol.

Georgi Markov

Just when I'd almost given up on the Beeb they come up with something good, and I forgive them.

[plaques]

I must say the photos of the prime suspects were remarkably good - given that they are said to be from street video cameras. That will help the conspiracy theorists.

Photos are probably from the archives we have on Russian spies. These two top military spies no doubt obtained visas from the British Embassy in Russia, flew directly from Russia to the UK, wandered about Salisbury for a couple of days without bothering to change their appearance, did their dirty poisoning dead, then caught a flight back to Russia. This is comic cuts stuff. Marks:-, none out of ten for undercover espionage.

[PanBiker]

I heard a comment on the radio this morning from a legal expert who said that what has been presented is not actual evidence but a statement from the PM. It's all fine and dandy Theresa May pointing the finger directly at Putin but that in itself can only be construed as supposition and would not stand up in court. In actuality the latter would be ruled out of order by any judge worth their salt.

The commentator even made a point about the method. Why would Russia who have a perfectly functional dirty tricks and spooks brigade use a method directly traceable back to Russia? There are many more clandestine and guaranteed fatal methods that could have been used.

Could this be an instance of an international dirty tricks brigade to discredit Russia? Not much different to the diatribe from some individuals and most of the media to sully the reputation of Jeremy Corbin. Not got to the attempted murder stage yet thankfully but I bet that has also been contemplated in some circles. My last statement only the same as the PM went on record with yesterday in parliament.

[Stanley]

I share your unease Ian. I don't see a smoking gun, I can think of at least one other scenario that would fit and I'll bet the government can as well but it involves the close association of UK PLC with Russian kleptocrats. If that puzzles you, have a look at 'Beware the Banks are out to get you'.

[Stanley]

Tony Blair is at it again, I don't know how he thinks he is helping (LINK) What I object to in particular is his statement that 'the moderates can't take the party back', this implies that anyone supporting Jeremy Corbyn is an 'extremist'. What Blair fails to recognise is that to many of us he was the extremist. Apart from taking the party further to the right than Thatcher in some areas, he took us into Iraq. You can't get much more extremist than that! Blair's chief of staff Jonathan Powell is reported to be approaching disillusioned ant Corbynists and arranging meetings with them. So what exactly is going on?
I don't know but whatever it is I don't like it and his contribution is doing nothing to unite the party he says he loves. Yesterday's men should keep stum and allow politics to take it's own course. As he admitted himself, he doesn't know what's happening or what the outcome will be. Quite, so even more reason not to rock the boat.

[PanBiker]

I share your unease Ian. I don't see a smoking gun, I can think of at least one other scenario that would fit and I'll bet the government can as well but it involves the close association of UK PLC with Russian kleptocrats. If that puzzles you, have a look at 'Beware the Banks are out to get you'.

Not got to the banks thread yet but as to another scenario so can I. I have always found it strange how quickly Porton Down identified the method, that would lead you to believe that our chemical weapons establishment already had stock to compare the substance with. No surprise either that it is only 20 miles up the road from where the attack took place. Outcome was botched and the plan was flawed from the start, two bullets from a silenced pistol would have been a lot simpler and more final.

Jeremy Corbyn is an alien to the likes of Blair simply because he is a Socialist. The rot in the party started with him when socialism became a dirty word, that and his ditching of manifesto promises and the final invasion of Iraq were the reasons I sent my membership card back.

[plaques]

this implies that anyone supporting Jeremy Corbyn is an 'extremist'.

Its now the standard excuse by all the ex-right leaning Labour politicians and those teetering on the edge of deselection to blame Stalinist communists, ( Bolsheviks, or "Reds") and Trotskyists ( who incidentally opposed Stalinism and was later assassinated) in an attempt to label Corbyn's Labour as a far left party that will take the country back to the 1930's. They do not mention the ten years of austerity and cut backs that are taking working people down that road already. Then we have Philip Hammond ( Chancellor of the Exchequer ) predicting that a hard Brexit could cost the UK £80bn with the possibility of more cuts and another decade of austerity. A sixteen year old in 2008 will be thirty six before austerity ends. Lancashire is already placed as the seventh poorest area in Europe are they trying to get us down to the bottom place?. Perhaps people have realized that the so called 'moderate' agenda is taking people into the abyss of assured poverty. The logical way out is a change of direction.

[Stanley]

I agree with both of you.
On another subject the tentacles of the brave new future of Brexit have reached China. The Chinese government, complaining about what they see as an incursion into their territorial waters (other countries of course disagree with that), have said that any further examples of this will damage the chances of a trade deal between us and the People's Republic. Bit of a blow for the brave new future of Britain arising like a phoenix! I wonder if Boris saw that one coming......

[Tizer]

I can't believe this! I go away for a day, then come back and find OG members have joined the ranks of conspiracy theorists. I agree with all that Tripps has said and he predicted accurately when he wrote `That will help the conspiracy theorists'. But I didn't expect OG members to fall into the trap. The Novichok affair has been handled well by our police and intelligence agencies, let's give them credit for it and stop trying to undermine them with wild goose chases and fake conspiracies. Don't be put off by suggestions that the Novichok affair is not up to the standard of Russian intelligence - Ben MacIntyre in The Times has been saying since the incident happened that it will have been carried out by the GRU who wanted revenge on Skripal, a GRU man who became for them a traitor. The GRU is the Russian military intelligence and they're not in the same class as Putin's own FSB colleagues (formerly the KGB).

I'm amazed to see the `Porton's only up the road from Salisbury' story going around again and the implication that we have a stock of Novichok and someone there has taken it out and contaminated Salisbury. I don't believe that we keep a `stock' of the toxin, we don't need to. All you need to make a chemical identification these days is a few milligrams. In fact they probably didn't even need any. It's likely that they have already got the chemical data on file for comparison with any suspicious samples.

As for Tony Blair...I helped vote him in the 1990s but gradually lost faith in him and Gordon Brown. But, for all that, if I had to choose between Blair and Corbyn now I would choose Blair. At least he communicates with the people in general, Corbyn only wants to talk to his own. Yes, I know membership of the Labour Party is increasing but so is membership of the US Republican Party. I don't place much stock in political party membership, it only represents a small fraction of the population and it doesn't tell us much. The small fraction can double but it's still a small fraction. There's another similarity between the Trump and Corbyn situations: the White House staffers are having to clean up after the mess that Trump leaves. Our Opposition leaders are having to do the same with Corbyn.

Just to maintain the balance, yes, I think the Tory government is in a terrible mess and we face the prospect of them becoming even more right wing, and the Brexit process is collapsing. Conspiracy theories are not needed - the real story is bad enough!

[PanBiker]

But, for all that, if I had to choose between Blair and Corbyn now I would choose Blair. At least he communicates with the people in general, Corbyn only wants to talk to his own.

Your first sentence I cant quite believe from an intelligent bloke like yourself Tiz, he certainly didn't communicate about Iraq. Second one, all I can say is that it's simply not true. I have been to a number of gatherings where Corbyn has been speaking and I can honestly say that the thousands that turn up to hear him are not all party members and sycophants.

I will turn your other comments round and say that it looks like you have been sucked in by the tirade of right wing hangers on and the media of which the majority of providers are driven from the same source. The electorate have been conned for so long and fed with so much disinformation that they have been corrupted and sold lie after lie against what socialism actually means. I trust that even you could give him more credit than "red under the bed, loony left, terrorist or Nazi", four seasons in one day. Any wet politician would have crumpled long ago but he is still there because he has integrity which is one thing you cannot say about Blair.

[plaques]

and find OG members have joined the ranks of conspiracy theorists.

Hang on Tizer, I never left the alternative thinking. One little point..(Quote..has been handled well by our police and intelligence agencies) We now hear that traces of the Novichok agent has been found in the rooms rented by the Russians. This was found in May but they didn't bother to tell anybody including the Hotel until now? The Hotel should have a register of their passports which can be traced back to their incoming flight and passport photographs plus any finger prints from the room and consequently to our records of Russian agents etc, etc. Suddenly when Mrs May is in deep Brexshit we have another amazing breakthrough to bolster her ratings. Me sceptical, never.

[Stanley]

The bigger trap is to start disagreeing with each other and not allowing a bit of independent thinking Tiz. All I did was say that there wasn't any smoking gun and that the PE article on the kleptocrats provided another possible scenario. Have you read it? There are a couple of nasty little murders in there....
Think back to the bloke who designed the biggest gun ever made for Saddam Hussein, he was murdered under very dodgy circumstances and the finger pointed close to home. The killings on Gibraltar. The assassination of Seiss Inquhart during the war and the activities of the SOE under the overall urgings of Churchill. Remember the CIA denying any collusion in the coup that murdered Allende in Chile. No security organisation has clean hands and it is dangerous to leap to conclusions. The only certainty is that all governments tell the story they want to be believed.... God knows we have seen plenty of that in the Brexit shambles. There's a difference between healthy scepticism and 'conspiracy theory'.
I shall continue to listen to you all and give you space to ponder. I trust all of you more than the politicians! Let's all carry on being nice to each other.....
Here's a non partisan thought for you. It occurred to me last night as I was listening to the latest news of schisms inside the main political parties and Vince Cable trying to revive the Liberal Democrats and thinking outside the box by asking why a politician should be the Leader. I started wondering about Party politics.
My question is, what would happen if we abolished the present tribal groupings and had a Parliament of Independents free to vote according to their conscience and the best interests of their constituents? Could it possibly work? Before you do a knee jerk consider the mess the present system has got us into.....

[Tizer]

There's a difference between healthy scepticism and 'conspiracy theory'.

Agreed, but recent posts here have been looking more like the latter than the former. You know how sceptical I am of politicians, big business and gurus etc but like you I have a crap detector and it started a shrill whistling. It was getting a bit like a `reds under the beds' scenario. By all means debate alternatives but let's not make ourselves look like conspiracy theorists to anyone dipping into this thread.

Ian, I wasn't referring to situations like the Iraq War but to the fact that we hear little or nothing from Corbyn on TV, radio or in the papers, whereas Blair gets out there and communicates. If Corbyn were to offer interviews, articles, quotes etc to the journalists they would jump at the opportunity to use them. That's what journalists thrive on and get paid for.

Plaques, why not the simple explanation that they couldn't release the information earlier because it would have wrecked their chances to get the full story of `who done it'?

At least we can discuss all this without being rude to each other!

Across the pond...this is good news, increasing resistance to Trump:
`Resurgent anti-Trump 'resistance' defines a divided America' LINK
I think that Trump's behaviour over McCain has probably swayed sentiment against him. Just imagine how the veterans felt about it and they have influence in America. And the democrats liked McCain too.

[Tripps]

In the Sergeants mess it was an unwritten rule that religion and politics were not good topics of conversation.

[PanBiker]

Ian, I wasn't referring to situations like the Iraq War but to the fact that we hear little or nothing from Corbyn on TV, radio or in the papers, whereas Blair gets out there and communicates. If Corbyn were to offer interviews, articles, quotes etc to the journalists they would jump at the opportunity to use them. That's what journalists thrive on and get paid for.

That's the rub though isn't it Tiz? The journo's get more mileage from reporting dissent from a former failed leader than reporting the common sense policies from Corbyn. I don't think that you could deny the fact that there is a right wing bias in the media. It isn't a case of Corbyn not doing anything but it's simply not reported. Vince Cable (he of spent Liberal Democrat Party) was afforded more air time yesterday for his two pennorth about centralist policy, they will put anybody else on rather than discuss proper socialist policy from the opposition.

We were discussing at home yesterday the landmark policy decisions that have been established under Labour Governments, there have been quite a few major ones. Let's try the Welfare State and Social Security, follow that with the National Health Service, Post War Social Housing drive, Barbara Castle and the Equal Pay Act. All of these introduced under socialist policies.

Can we say the same for the other parties? No we can't but they are responsible for lot's of other stuff. To name just a few, decimation of industry and manufacturing, coal, steel, shipbuilding, fishing, anti-union policy, Falklands War, tuition fees, failed austerity policy oh and lets not forget Dave's vanity project Brexit, that was a really good idea!

Overall not a very good track record for the Tories or right wing policy. I would include New Labour (or Blue Labour as I like to call it) in right wing policy, they just reneged on reversing tuition fees and then took us into a full blown illegal war. The Tory/ Lib Dem Coalition did no better they helped in aiding and abetting a regime change in a foreign sovereign country, that didn't work either it's now an official failed state. All this and people are frightened of socialism?

[chinatyke]

Can we say the same for the other parties? No we can't but they are responsible for lot's of other stuff. To name just a few, decimation of industry and manufacturing, coal, steel, shipbuilding ...

Wasn't it the unions who destroyed British industry and brought the country to its knees?

[plaques]

From George Galloway. (Twitter)
A pack of rabid #Labour MPs who have savaged their own leader daily and in public for three years regardless of the wounds inflicted on their own party now demand the leader “call off the dogs”. Barking mad. #Corbyn #ChukaUmunna.

Not always a fan of George Galloway and I rather like the way Chuka Umunna forms his arguments but I think in his 'call off the dogs' has drifted off target. The dogs are not hounding the centre left, classing them as moderates, but those who appear to be betraying the very essence of why the Labour Party was established ie: to replace the Tories.

[Stanley]

China, in a word NO! They weren't squeaky clean but on the whole were a good thing for industry and more importantly, the workers. Have a look at what Thatcher and her cohorts did to industry when they swallowed Chicago School Economics, deregulated the banks and went for 'clean' financial services as the route to profit. Then consider where that took us!
On the other posts, I like the tone of the debate and agree with all of you. Ian in particular is right. I keep asking for examples of at least one successful policy since 2010. There has been no response.
But Raab says everything is going to be fine......