POLITICS CORNER

User avatar
Tizer
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 8999
Joined: 23 Jan 2012, 19:46
Location: Somerset, UK

Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Tizer » 02 Feb 2018, 16:23

Ian, I'd like a pleasant surprise and perhaps it might come from the younger generation if they left their smartphones and went out to vote. :smile:

User avatar
PanBiker
Site Administrator
Site Administrator
Posts: 7431
Joined: 23 Jan 2012, 13:07
Location: Barnoldswick - In the West Riding of Yorkshire, always was, always will be.

Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by PanBiker » 02 Feb 2018, 18:52

They can take their phones with them Tiz. :smile:

One issue that I am sure will impact a lot of the Tory marginals are the WASPI women. By stealing without notice thousands of women's pensions who were born in the 50's they have literally disturbed a wasps nest. These are the women of an age that generally turn out to vote. Sally got the most condescending letter today from our Tory M.P. Andrew Stephenson after she asked him to meet her earlier in the week when she went to London on the rally to present the latest petition at Downing Street. It's actually an insult to her intelligence and contains a number of downright lies.
Ian

User avatar
Stanley
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 44088
Joined: 23 Jan 2012, 12:01
Location: Barnoldswick. Nearer to Heaven than Gloria.

Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Stanley » 03 Feb 2018, 03:57

Some good stuff in those answers.... The one certainty is that eventually the tensions in society that are being generated by this government are going to result in many different forms of unrest. The basic key to the problem is our neglect of basic education particularly at primary level. This plus the numbing effect of passive entertainment has produced people who don't think and enquire, this isn't an underclass thing, you can find them in all classes and levels of society. We have to stop stifling young enquiring minds, encourage them to think and learn and stop treating whole swathes of the population as factory and cannon fodder. That's a bit old fashioned but I think you know what I am driving at.
As for that jerk Stephenson, he has swallowed the line that all that matters is the economy and his Masters can do no wrong. He never addresses infant mortality, levels of crime, food banks, poverty or homelessness. He has never fought against cuts in council funding. It doesn't surprise me to hear of his treatment of Sally and Ian is right about the number of people antagonised by the obvious policy mistakes that are being made. He started his tenancy of the seat by never explaining the matter of the Ashcroft funding and has gone downhill from there.
Tiz, don't worry about Corbyn, just listen to what he is saying. I can remember Attlee being dismissed as a small man of no consequence who would be ruled by the unions and would take the country down a path to a pure Command Economy like Russia. Instead his government gave us the NHS adequate house-building and the basis for an economic recovery that others profited from. We had hard times but though it all we made progress. The same thing could easily happen again.
Think about the Norman Davies conclusion that one of the major factors in the dissolution of a nation, state or institution is when there is a vacuum at the centre. We have a government that gives every sign of being just that, the only question is how long until Nemesis catches up with them.
Stanley Challenger Graham
Stanley's View
scg1936 at talktalk.net

"Beware of certitude" (Jimmy Reid)
The floggings will continue until morale improves!

User avatar
PanBiker
Site Administrator
Site Administrator
Posts: 7431
Joined: 23 Jan 2012, 13:07
Location: Barnoldswick - In the West Riding of Yorkshire, always was, always will be.

Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by PanBiker » 03 Feb 2018, 09:51

With regard to the planned ejection of our useless M.P.

Branches have been consulted and they have selected from biographies supplied, PPC candidates for a long list. This has been scrutinised and sifted by the Constituency PPC selection committee which was elected at an all member GC (General Committee) meeting. Candidates have been interviewed by said committee and a shortlist produced. The candidates who have made the shortlist have been given contact details of all members of the Constituency Labour Party who are now fair game for being canvassed for their votes. We have a shortlist of five who will eventually make it to the all member hustings which will be held at Colne Municipal Hall where further scrutiny and questioning will take place, one will be selected by one member one vote ballot by the members present to become the Constituency Labour Party Prospective Parliamentary Candidate.

The shortlist was finalised last week and we have already received communication from three of the candidates via email. I would assume Stanley will be the same. Candidates can canvass the members by any means, post, email, telephone or a knock on the door.

Sally is attending the NHS rally in Nelson today and then going on to Unity Hall (the former ILP Institute) for another rally to celebrate 100 years since women received the vote. Selina Cooper and Catherine Bruce Glasier, laid the foundation stones for the institute when it was built.
Ian

User avatar
Tizer
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 8999
Joined: 23 Jan 2012, 19:46
Location: Somerset, UK

Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Tizer » 03 Feb 2018, 10:41

From the point of view of Labour Party supporters, where does Momentum fit into the scheme of things? Is it a benefit, helping to raise the Party membership, or does it have too much influence over the Party's thoughts and actions? Why is there a need for Momentum, can the Labour Party not manage by itself to attract more members and promote its ideals? I see it described as `entryist' - and I had to look up that word! :smile:

User avatar
PanBiker
Site Administrator
Site Administrator
Posts: 7431
Joined: 23 Jan 2012, 13:07
Location: Barnoldswick - In the West Riding of Yorkshire, always was, always will be.

Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by PanBiker » 03 Feb 2018, 12:23

Here we go Tiz, you may already have been here:

About - Momentum
Ian

User avatar
PanBiker
Site Administrator
Site Administrator
Posts: 7431
Joined: 23 Jan 2012, 13:07
Location: Barnoldswick - In the West Riding of Yorkshire, always was, always will be.

Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by PanBiker » 03 Feb 2018, 13:46

I came across this, if you have a half hour to spare you could do far worse than having a look at this not far from the truth satirical piece.

There is a bit of colourful annotation.

https://youtu.be/cAnWfgyQlms
Ian

plaques
Donor
Posts: 2610
Joined: 23 May 2013, 22:09

Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by plaques » 03 Feb 2018, 14:39

I know this Barlick housing programme got a lot of attention in Barnoldswick Talk where the majority of replies to the Pendle Conservative -Home Facebook were all negative but surprise surprise were all deleted. This comment by Mr Sephenson MP takes some beating. Quote.

"Andrew Stephenson MP hit out at the Labour Council Leader, Cllr Mohammed Iqbal, for failing to adapt Pendle’s plan to fit the much lower Governments housing targets,.....This puts unnecessary pressure on the Council to build on Pendle’s greenfields to meet their own housing targets".

Those OG readers with a reasonable memory will remember that it was the Conservatives who proposed the initial bloated housing plan and only after my own objection did the government reduce the population growth figures. Unfortunately, the Conservative council continued with the original numbers but with a very minor reduction. Now to say that it was Labour's fault for not reining in the numbers knowing that to object to the latest plan would have resulted in 'No Plan' and therefore left to the Conservative government to instruct one of its own is Orwellian doublethink.
An analogy would be.. Its your fault for breaking the window because you didn't stop me throwing the stone.

User avatar
Stanley
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 44088
Joined: 23 Jan 2012, 12:01
Location: Barnoldswick. Nearer to Heaven than Gloria.

Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Stanley » 04 Feb 2018, 04:03

P, once more you are quite right. I was always impressed by the way you examined the strategy line by line and thank you for it.
Tiz.... "where does Momentum fit into the scheme of things?"
To be quite honest I don't know, I have no knowledge of who they are or how exactly they operate. All I 'know' is the information fed to me by right wing media who are positive it fits into the 'reds under the bed' category. What I do know is that the Tories have their equivalents, the 1922 Committee, Rees Mogg's leave outfit, the various think tanks flying the banner of general economic enquiry, getting charitable funding but actually functioning as clandestine political organisations. This leaves aside the modern way, the Whatsapp groups openly admitted to by advocates of various policies and of course the old-fashioned 'smoke filled back room'. I also know that in any organisation there are the rabid activists, the bad apples and the ones who will agree to anything to be seen as a member of the club.
Go back in time and read Harold Nicholson's diaries in which he describes the activities of the Cliveden Set in the inter war years. Run by Nancy Astor and a seat of power in the Tory Party. Then read Richard Crossman's Backbench Diaries and get a glimpse though the furnace door of the machinations and back-stabbings behind the scenes in the Labour Party in a later era.
All these groups were secretive, at times amoral and always regarded by the opposition as the work of the devil. I don't like them but recognise that as long as human nature exists they will exist and have to be allowed for. Therefore I am not going into a decline about Momentum, I trust Corbyn and if he decides they are something more sinister than an efficient campaigning mechanism I shall back him.
As for 'entryism'. If you have never come across this you are lucky. It isn't confined to political parties but can be found throughout life. I was alerted to it by David Sekers many years ago when I was setting up the Ellenroad Trust and structured the Articles and management to give some defence against activists and potential trouble-makers. I remember that David Shipp, the lawyer who was Deputy Town Clerk at Rochdale, after he had scrutinised my proposals, congratulating me on a very clever structure. Even so that didn't entirely remove the dangers. I can see that the pressures will be so much greater in a political party.
Closely related to this subject is a piece of advice I was given by my friend David Moore when I was put in charge of the Interpretative Team at Pendle Heritage in 1982. He told me to look at the team and try to identify who was going to let me down. Now there's a skill which our Leaders would do well to cultivate!
Stanley Challenger Graham
Stanley's View
scg1936 at talktalk.net

"Beware of certitude" (Jimmy Reid)
The floggings will continue until morale improves!

plaques
Donor
Posts: 2610
Joined: 23 May 2013, 22:09

Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by plaques » 04 Feb 2018, 09:05

Brexit attacks on civil service 'are worthy of 1930s Germany 'The Guardian 10h ago

This is one of the current headlines. Rees-Mogg and his cohorts attacking the impartiality of the Treasury on the recent Brexit 'slow growth' reports.
Having said that I see our Pendle Conservatives are using similar tactics to rubbish a survey taken on the usage of the local Pendle Leisure sports Hall. Probably not the best designed survey but at least they consulted the users for their opinion before making a full council decision on it. Some of the questions the Tories were objecting to were nit picking to the n'th degree. It looks like its open season on messengers. Anything that goes against their ideology is 'Bang, Bang', take no notice, its all lies, false news, believe me and don't think for yourself.

User avatar
Stanley
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 44088
Joined: 23 Jan 2012, 12:01
Location: Barnoldswick. Nearer to Heaven than Gloria.

Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Stanley » 04 Feb 2018, 09:18

The Trump Effect?
I've listened this morning to a government statement that scrapping the beach landing ships doesn't mean our Royal Marines aren't the best fighting troops in the world. Great! So that's all right then.
You put Rees-Mogg and Redwood together and what do you get...... These men are dangerous!
Stanley Challenger Graham
Stanley's View
scg1936 at talktalk.net

"Beware of certitude" (Jimmy Reid)
The floggings will continue until morale improves!

User avatar
PanBiker
Site Administrator
Site Administrator
Posts: 7431
Joined: 23 Jan 2012, 13:07
Location: Barnoldswick - In the West Riding of Yorkshire, always was, always will be.

Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by PanBiker » 04 Feb 2018, 10:03

Four from our five shortlisted PPC's were at the local NHS event and 100 year franchise celebration yesterday in Nelson.
Ian

User avatar
Tizer
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 8999
Joined: 23 Jan 2012, 19:46
Location: Somerset, UK

Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Tizer » 04 Feb 2018, 10:42

Ian, yes, I did my homework on Momentum but, like Stanley, I still don't know what they are really about. Their web site makes lots of wonderful claims but that's no more than I would expect. Unfortunately we've all got to be extra sceptical in these days of social media, political forums, secret groups and so on. Only yesterday I was reading yet more concerns that Momentum is biased against women and Jews - not journalists' opinions but the actual experiences of named people. I know that the Tories have their right wing groups but we're used to such behaviour from them; it worries me when it happens in a Socialist group.

User avatar
PanBiker
Site Administrator
Site Administrator
Posts: 7431
Joined: 23 Jan 2012, 13:07
Location: Barnoldswick - In the West Riding of Yorkshire, always was, always will be.

Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by PanBiker » 04 Feb 2018, 11:39

Tizer wrote:
04 Feb 2018, 10:42
Only yesterday I was reading yet more concerns that Momentum is biased against women and Jews - not journalists' opinions but the actual experiences of named people. I know that the Tories have their right wing groups but we're used to such behaviour from them; it worries me when it happens in a Socialist group.
Yes but is it correct, if its published in the press you can never be sure, named people or not. Some forces will do anything to undermine a move back to proper socialist principles. Don't forget that in the run up to the second leader ballot for the party our own NEC at the time tried to influence the vote by disenfranchising thousands of paid up members of the party. The rule held at the time but It didn't work and recent elections to the NEC have adjusted the balance of it's members so that type of injustice within the party is less likely to happen in future. Dirty tricks brigades exist everywhere in life and politics, as an activist within the party you do and vote as you think best for your corner of the woods within the party structure and rule. I have not had any particular truck with Momentum apart from voting for the so called "left wing slate", I made my own mind up on that and did not need any guidance from any sub group. The particular slur of anti-Semitism and bias against women is always a good ploy for doing maximum damage, next news Momentum may even be eating babies!
Ian

User avatar
Tripps
Senior Member
Posts: 2718
Joined: 23 Jan 2012, 14:56

Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Tripps » 04 Feb 2018, 23:14

PanBiker wrote:
04 Feb 2018, 11:39
if its published in the press you can never be sure, named people or not
Can you be sure if you actually saw them say it?

Compare and contrast. . .
This
Jeremy Corbyn has called for an end to "personal abuse" in his first speech to the Labour Party Conference as leader. My Corbyn urged delegates to "treat people with respect" and said there would be "no rudeness from me".

"Cut out the personal abuse, cut out the cyber-bullying and especially the misogynistic abuse online and let's get on with bringing real values back into politics", he said.


with this. . .
An outgoing Labour council leader today revealed Corbynistas taunted her by singing a song about stalking at her during a campaign to oust her. Claire Kober is quitting after leading Haringey Council blaming a campaign of 'bullying and intimidation' by Momentum activists. The Labour moderate said firebrand activists shouted and screamed at her in meetings and vowed to purge her.

And she told of a Labour Party meeting when hard-left activists sang 'I'll be watching you' - words from 'Every Breath You take - a song about stalking by The Police. She told The BBC's Andrew Marr Show: ‘I've been a leader for ten years a s a borough leader, and as any other politician in a frontline role, you become pretty resilient.

‘I have to say in the last two years I have attracted more threats more bullying more intimidation than in the previous eight years put together. ‘It is absolutely sexist – that runs from the way I was treated by my National Executive Committee just last week – and I don’t think a man would be treated the same way.

Born to be mild. . .

User avatar
Stanley
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 44088
Joined: 23 Jan 2012, 12:01
Location: Barnoldswick. Nearer to Heaven than Gloria.

Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Stanley » 05 Feb 2018, 04:06

"Corbynistas taunted her" could be a good example of why this subject is so tricky. Could there be a proportion of Corbyn supporters who would tend to be football hooligans? Does their behaviour tar all Corbyn supporters with the same brush? Like me and Ian? Or was an assumption made which was not necessarily accurate.
As Ian rightly says "Dirty tricks brigades exist everywhere in life and politics".
Later.... We have news from Kwasi Kwarteng that reports of divisions in the Tory Party over how involved we will be in the EU Customs Union after Brexit are 'exaggerated'. So that's all right then!
Stanley Challenger Graham
Stanley's View
scg1936 at talktalk.net

"Beware of certitude" (Jimmy Reid)
The floggings will continue until morale improves!

User avatar
Tripps
Senior Member
Posts: 2718
Joined: 23 Jan 2012, 14:56

Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Tripps » 05 Feb 2018, 09:41

Stanley wrote:
05 Feb 2018, 04:06
Could there be a proportion of Corbyn supporters who would tend to be football hooligans?
Yes - and I think they may have named themselves 'Momentum' :smile:

Not all tarred with the same brush - of course not. You and Ian have your views, but I don't see either of you ever offering violence to that curious Mr Rees Mogg. :smile:
Born to be mild. . .

User avatar
Tizer
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 8999
Joined: 23 Jan 2012, 19:46
Location: Somerset, UK

Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Tizer » 05 Feb 2018, 10:51

We know that dirty tricks brigades exist everywhere but voters don't want more of the same, therefore the Labour Party has to work hard to show that it's better and to stamp out all dirty tricks within its own party. To outsiders like me, Conservatives and Labour look pretty much as bad as each other at present, but in different ways. With the likes of the double-breasted Rees-Mogg slithering around it's a great opportunity to Labour to show they're the better choice. :smile:

User avatar
PanBiker
Site Administrator
Site Administrator
Posts: 7431
Joined: 23 Jan 2012, 13:07
Location: Barnoldswick - In the West Riding of Yorkshire, always was, always will be.

Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by PanBiker » 05 Feb 2018, 11:08

For another take on the Harringay resignation;

In Harrigay the people have taken over, not the hard left.

It's only fair to mention that Momentum is not affiliated to the Labour Party although they have applied to be so. I also think that anyone who steps out of line with regard to party infighting will be branded a Corbynista particularly by those that don't want to see him as leader or Prime Minister.

I'm not defending the action but I think the article sheds a bit of light.
Ian

User avatar
Pluggy
Site Administrator
Site Administrator
Posts: 1763
Joined: 23 Jan 2012, 12:13
Location: Barnoldswick
Contact:

Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Pluggy » 05 Feb 2018, 11:33

This came up on My phones newsstand.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/5496222/p ... omophobia/

On which planet is ar*e licking a sexual act ?

The way they obscured the first and third pictures and left the second as is is amusing, not that theres anything to see in the first place.

The very funny program in question : https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b ... -episode-3

I didn't have much of an opinion of Piers-Morgon or the Sun to start with, it went down another notch.

Two pharases come to mind :

Get over yourself
If you're that thin skinned you probably made the wrong career choice.
Pluggy's Home Monitor : http://pluggy.duckdns.org
Barlick Computers : http://barlickcomputers.co.uk

plaques
Donor
Posts: 2610
Joined: 23 May 2013, 22:09

Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by plaques » 05 Feb 2018, 12:53

Perhaps its politicians with thick skins that are the real problem. You can more or less guarantee that logical arguments, peaceful demonstrations and petitions can safely be ignored. The 'Stop the War' peaceful demonstration in Hyde Park 2003 with over 750,000 people counted for nothing. The sad thing is unless there is some element of intimidation or violence you can forget it. A sad state of affairs which is unacceptable to the majority of people including myself but once you create these mini dictators own ignore the rules of democracy that's where you finish up.

User avatar
Tripps
Senior Member
Posts: 2718
Joined: 23 Jan 2012, 14:56

Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Tripps » 05 Feb 2018, 13:33

PanBiker wrote:
05 Feb 2018, 11:08
For another take on the Harringay resignation;
Thanks for that link. Very clear, and Interesting. I had based my post on what I saw the lady say in an interview.
Born to be mild. . .

User avatar
PanBiker
Site Administrator
Site Administrator
Posts: 7431
Joined: 23 Jan 2012, 13:07
Location: Barnoldswick - In the West Riding of Yorkshire, always was, always will be.

Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by PanBiker » 05 Feb 2018, 14:04

plaques wrote:
05 Feb 2018, 12:53
Perhaps its politicians with thick skins that are the real problem. You can more or less guarantee that logical arguments, peaceful demonstrations and petitions can safely be ignored. The 'Stop the War' peaceful demonstration in Hyde Park 2003 with over 750,000 people counted for nothing.
Indeed Plaques and the rocking on 1 million people (my family included) who attended the miners rally in London in the late 80's. Thatcher was rabidly closing pits and decimating communities. At the time we felt it so important to show dissent to the government and solidarity to the miners that we took our kids out of school to attend the rally with us. I think they got more education on that day than any they would have been given in school.

Same outcome though, decisions had already been made.
Tripps wrote:
05 Feb 2018, 13:33
PanBiker wrote:
05 Feb 2018, 11:08
For another take on the Harringay resignation;
Thanks for that link. Very clear, and Interesting. I had based my post on what I saw the lady say in an interview.
Your'e welcome and thanks for the comment Tripps. :smile:
Ian

User avatar
Stanley
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 44088
Joined: 23 Jan 2012, 12:01
Location: Barnoldswick. Nearer to Heaven than Gloria.

Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Stanley » 06 Feb 2018, 04:52

Sanity evidently prevails here.... Good and interesting posts particularly the article about Harringey. I had noted what PE said about that development.
I see the EU have given us the hard word, the 'swivel eyed' tendency amongst the Brexiteers are holding a victory parade. (I like the description of Rees Mogg as 'curious', lovely use of language David) There will be no sweetheart deal on Customs Union and trade with the EU. Funny thing is that nobody immediately linked this to the Irish Question, the elephant in the room.
The thing I note about all these rabid tendencies is that they are convinced they are right. We at least make room for revision of opinions as facts emerge, remember..... 'Beware of Certitude!'.
I note the imminent failure of Stagecoach and Virgin on the East Coast line, add names like Carillion, Crapita and PFI and for the umpteenth time remind everyone of what Nye Bevan said about the Commanding Heights of the Economy. (Grayling is in charge of yet another disaster. He has an albatross hung round his neck.)
See THIS BBC report of Trump's lies about the NHS. 30 million Americans who have no health care at all would love to have it in place in the US and they would get some of the cheapest health care in cost per capita in the world but that hardly ever gets mentioned. I become convinced that Trump and his cohorts are the biggest existential global risk ever.
Stanley Challenger Graham
Stanley's View
scg1936 at talktalk.net

"Beware of certitude" (Jimmy Reid)
The floggings will continue until morale improves!

User avatar
Stanley
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 44088
Joined: 23 Jan 2012, 12:01
Location: Barnoldswick. Nearer to Heaven than Gloria.

Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Stanley » 07 Feb 2018, 07:20

More detail about the hard word the EU has given us. They threaten sanctions if we have single market access and break EU rules. Further, they have told T May that she has to make a legal decision immediately as to what we propose to do about Irish borders. I remember when Richard Broughton first raised this question before the referendum vote and forecast that it was going to be a big problem.... Was he ever right! The danger is that a combination of these two matters is the trigger for even more demented behaviour from the usual Brexiteer suspects. As things stand this almost certainly guarantees the Hard Brexit that has been threatened.
All they have to do to avoid all this is rescind the Article 150 letter.... Simples! No wonder the world is baffled by what we are doing, it looks like economic suicide.
Stanley Challenger Graham
Stanley's View
scg1936 at talktalk.net

"Beware of certitude" (Jimmy Reid)
The floggings will continue until morale improves!

Post Reply

Return to “Current Affairs & Comment”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users